Sebecloki's Untitled Campaign (Inactive)

Game Master Sebecloki

I agree that defensively we'll probably struggle a lot, so to that end I have a question:

How are we dealing with multiple sources of miss chance?
If a character casts Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility and Blink, do they have the miss-chances from both of those calculated, and then the monster goes against their AC?

Give me more information on this -- like how the different options would play out in a combat.

Regarding your above question of facing the PF conversion of the mythic Hekatonkheires, the Bench Pressing says a normal 20th level PC wouldn't even sorta come close to surviving vs one.

Now, obviously, with your ruleset, that changes things up a lot, but I'm unsure if even that's enough.

Getting an AC over 100 is going to be really hard(they have +98 to hit). Assuming 15 attacks vs a medium PC(more if their bigger) it deals a minimum of 885 damage. Which is way more than double a 20th level PC HP. It's save DC for it's stun is almost 3x what a level 20 PC should have. We might be able to hit, assuming we can always hit it's touch AC, as 54 isn't that hard, considering 8th level Hamza has +34 to hit.

Also, none of this takes into account it's various mythic and other qualities/abilities I haven't looked up.

I know you're eager to be able to use crazy ass monsters in a game you run, but I thought you kept saying this was going to be a much more RP/investigation/story based game than one focused on combat. If that's the case, should we really be building combat monster PCs?

Regarding your above question of facing the PF conversion of the mythic Hekatonkheires, the Bench Pressing says a normal 20th level PC wouldn't even sorta come close to surviving vs one.

Now, obviously, with your ruleset, that changes things up a lot, but I'm unsure if even that's enough.

Getting an AC over 100 is going to be really hard(they have +98 to hit). Assuming 15 attacks vs a medium PC(more if their bigger) it deals a minimum of 885 damage. Which is way more than double a 20th level PC HP. It's save DC for it's stun is almost 3x what a level 20 PC should have. We might be able to hit, assuming we can always hit it's touch AC, as 54 isn't that hard, considering 8th level Hamza has +34 to hit.

Also, none of this takes into account it's various mythic and other qualities/abilities I haven't looked up.

I know you're eager to be able to use crazy ass monsters in a game you run, but I thought you kept saying this was going to be a much more RP/investigation/story based game than one focused on combat. If that's the case, should we really be building combat monster PCs?

It is mostly going to be investigation, but I want the handful of big combats to be spectacular stuff, and not to be a huge mismatch between stuff I want to use and the PC abilities.

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

Actually I need to change that because we're gestalting the mythic tier, it should be the same as the gestalt levels for the regular classes now.

So for example for the monster level, the beginning of the campaign is that there is a horrible something that is horrifically murdering anyone who tries to investigate the high priest Enlil-Utu's disappearance. This thing, whatever it is, can apparently flinch and then eviscerate powerful members of the kobold nobility without alerting the many, many strong guards that fill the palace, not to mention traps and other magical alarms.

Eventually you'll have to track down and fight whatever that is -- or banish it/trap it, develop some kind of defense. Given its current success rate, it's not clear what those other options would consist of though...

Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I agree that defensively we'll probably struggle a lot, so to that end I have a question:

How are we dealing with multiple sources of miss chance?
If a character casts Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility and Blink, do they have the miss-chances from both of those calculated, and then the monster goes against their AC?

Give me more information on this -- like how the different options would play out in a combat.

Dan Dinkleburg casts Greater Invisibility, his total concealment grants him a 50% miss chance.

Sebecloki wrote:

Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I agree that defensively we'll probably struggle a lot, so to that end I have a question:

How are we dealing with multiple sources of miss chance?
If a character casts Mirror Image/Greater Invisibility and Blink, do they have the miss-chances from both of those calculated, and then the monster goes against their AC?

Give me more information on this -- like how the different options would play out in a combat.

Dan Dinkleburg casts Greater Invisibility, his total concealment grants him a 50% miss chance.

He then casts blink, meaning he's only there 50% of the time, for an additional 50% miss chance.
Would this be 75% miss chance, two rolls with 50%, or one roll of 50%?

check out this thread -- it has page numbers; I think it concludes they don't stack.

i believe RAW it is two rolls of 50%.

ok so my first character idea is:

Blink Dog
Moon Magic, specifically Ral. Blink dogs are naturally attuned to this sort of magic by their very nature as blink dogs.

For utility, I will try to keep him a viable face or assistant-face type. He will be big into teleportation and movement and such. To fit with the Ral theme, i'll lean heavily into Warp and Telekinesis spheres magically and Athletics sphere martially, with maybe some Blood and Duelist or something for offense, Creation/Alchemy for extra utility and to reflect mercantile efforts.

Second character would be the dusk kobold, heavy into Illusion sphere for sure, Creation as well and/or perhaps Dark.

thinking of some of the following, more of a note for myself later when we actually make characters

Alacritous +2
alchemically quickened +1
augmented +X
Dark tapestry +2 ??
Diamond +2
Dream Eater +2 looks fun
Dunesage +1 ??
Force Creature +1
Half-fiend (Invidiak) +3 ??
half-umbral dragon +2
psychic creature (telepath +1)
quickling creature +3
savant +2
shadow creature +1
shadow lord +2
shadow-traced creature +2
timebreaker +3

instrument of the gods at +6 seems like a decent way to at least survive...

so it looks like i have plenty to work with

River of Sticks wrote:

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

Actually I need to change that because we're gestalting the mythic tier, it should be the same as the gestalt levels for the regular classes now.

Whoops. Forgot that the other change was a mythic feat every level, which would make a single progression 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc.

Two progressions would be 4, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, etc, right?

Sebecloki wrote:

River of Sticks wrote:

On the plus side, the base ruleset doesn't require much to cover skills/RP/investigatory capabilities.

@Sebecloki: Are the Mythic Feats on your list off? I think it should be 2 at first, 1 every level thereafter, right?

Actually I need to change that because we're gestalting the mythic tier, it should be the same as the gestalt levels for the regular classes now.

Whoops. Forgot that the other change was a mythic feat every level, which would make a single progression 2, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, etc.

Two progressions would be 4, 4, 2, 4, 2, 4, 2, etc, right?

I think so, I need to check my numbers; I'll update tomorrow.

The fluff thing everyone needs to think about is the social role I outlined -- everyone is a duke, apprentice to the archmage, senior captain of the royal guard/three star general, assistant to the high priest, chamberlain, or other significant figure in ningishzidda society. Think about what your character is going to be in that framework.

For the blink dog example, your character would be the attache to the Chief Envoy of Shalibaad to the Lands of the Well.

yeah i have that idea down pat and my skills will reflect my purpose. i was just looking to see if i could even find enough stuff to tack on to even have a tiny chance at survival, turns out maybe there is. haha

FYI: keeping an eye on this... Now, if I can find the time, which seems to be a rare commodity these days for me...!

When I asked about rough level earlier, it was due to wanting to try and figure out where in society my PCs would fit.

For the Apostle Kyton, I'm thinking he's a high ranking priest in the church of Shadow(I'll come up with a more appropriate name). If you're okay with it, I was thinking of using the ranks from the Sabbat, so he would be a Cardinal.

For the skill monkey, he would probably be the head 'investigator' for the kobolds, but not an actual guildmaster/leader.

When I asked about rough level earlier, it was due to wanting to try and figure out where in society my PCs would fit.

For the Apostle Kyton, I'm thinking he's a high ranking priest in the church of Shadow(I'll come up with a more appropriate name). If you're okay with it, I was thinking of using the ranks from the Sabbat, so he would be a Cardinal.

For the skill monkey, he would probably be the head 'investigator' for the kobolds, but not an actual guildmaster/leader.

Any sort of kobold shadow priest will be a high ranking member in a minority religion. The primary religion of the kobolds is the veneration of the Dragon Kings and their seeds, as well as their scions among the dragonborn nobility. Any other faith is going to make the character something of an outsider to the dominant social order -- that's not ruling out such a character, I'm just expanding the fluff implications so you'll understand what you're getting into with that idea. It would make sense as a character from the under classes that resent the dragonborn nobility.

I'm fine with the basic terminology -- I think we'd construct the Church of Shadow as something similar to a weird version of Catholicism.

I like the idea for a chief investigator -- like the best agent of the secret police or a Sherlock Holmes kind of figure.

Also, another important thing to know about the government is that there are two heads of state -- the king and queen, who each run a parallel government. So the queen has a chamberlain, a general, a high priest, a head of secret police, etc. and the king has the same institutions over which is the head. Each of these parallel governments has its own language. The rulers are seen as the embodiments of the divine dragons Apsu and Tiamat, and their sacred marriage joins together society and provides both a philosophical and normative social model for the rest of the ningishzidda.

lifecrafting doesnt seem very thematic for a blink dog. also, you mention that you dont want a lot of metal, but with the blink dog history combined with the inversion of what is common on Athas, is that no longer a stricture? if it is still in play, i imagine a lot of things a blink dog would make would be plastic/plasteel/polymer/etc?

also i wanna say i saw something about you said similar things stack (such as rogue sneak attack). I could be wrong as ive been reading things all over the place today but 1. is that the case and 2. how would that work with sphere? (two martial traditions or spell pools etc?)

Out of curiosity, where/how would a Taninim fit into this society? Especially one who took the Draconic Exemplar class, 'keyed' to an Umbral Dragon?

Another idea I had(possibly as a 3rd character) would be a Moroi(the vampire race from Rite Publishing) who would likely be some sort of badass warrior. Not fully committed/sold on this concept, just throwing out ideas.

I'm imagining some sort of entertainer, something bard with enchantments and illusions.
Have some really good ideas which build on the experience from the other hand so far.

I think combat will be difficult as always until we figure out how to balance stuff.
The alternative would be playing more traditional characters with less perks.

Out of curiosity, where/how would a Taninim fit into this society? Especially one who took the Draconic Exemplar class, 'keyed' to an Umbral Dragon?

Another idea I had(possibly as a 3rd character) would be a Moroi(the vampire race from Rite Publishing) who would likely be some sort of badass warrior. Not fully committed/sold on this concept, just throwing out ideas.

There could be a race of reptilian creatures who were considered children of the Great Mother Tiamat/Ta'amtum. However, it needs to be clarified that these would not be real dragons, just the children/creations of them. They're no more dragons than the kobolds.

lifecrafting doesnt seem very thematic for a blink dog. also, you mention that you dont want a lot of metal, but with the blink dog history combined with the inversion of what is common on Athas, is that no longer a stricture? if it is still in play, i imagine a lot of things a blink dog would make would be plastic/plasteel/polymer/etc?

also i wanna say i saw something about you said similar things stack (such as rogue sneak attack). I could be wrong as ive been reading things all over the place today but 1. is that the case and 2. how would that work with sphere? (two martial traditions or spell pools etc?)

I have to change that fluff detail since that's for the prime material planet. There's going to be a lot of space age alloys floating around, as well as plastic/plasteel/polymer etc. in the setting as an inverse of Athas. Think stuff like the terminator material or the stuff the stargate is made out of.

Yes, that is a rule I used. I limited it to the 'class abilities' in the column of the class chart. I think spell pools come out of a different column.

I don't want to get into a lot of shifty detail about this -- if we're going that direction, let's just do the gestalting like 2nd edition ADnD multiclassing and make everything stack (skill points, health etc.)

Going to put my flag down for an Archmage's apprentice, or perhaps a less-than-ethical supplier of the Archmage, who jealously guards his sources by only doing business with those who have been indoctrinated into his cult.

Going to put my flag down for an Archmage's apprentice, or perhaps a less-than-ethical supplier of the Archmage, who jealously guards his sources by only doing business with those who have been indoctrinated into his cult.

The great archmage of the ningishzidda is a 20/20//10/10 kaisharga shadow mage. He is responsible for administering the academy of shadows that trains the shadow mages that guard the city. Like in most of the Black, shadow magic is the dominant form of sorcery, and anything else, as in the case of the religion example above, is going to be a minority tradition.

Your character would either be a scion of one of the noble houses, or a particularly talented street urchin the great master plucked from obscurity to be his apprentice.

So fluff idea to play one or both twins: She's the captain of the Kings guard, or that being's second in command, depending on power level. In your face, double weapon melee attacker, focusing on glorious presence of will (descriptive, not game text) and intimidating foes for larger than usual debuff penalties (-5 to 60' area as free action, with limited ability to bypass immunities) with at-will teleportation.

He's the queen's troubleshooter, hiding in the shadows and using magic/psionics/flavor of choice to bring about the outcomes she desires (if the king and queen oppose each other, that may or may not work out). Focusing on buffing, debuffing, and ranged attacks.

I second making things stack. Makes calculations a lot easier to just total everything up and then add it together. Only maybe iffy one would be adding a Stat to the same thing twice, ala Monk AC bonus. That said... I think that's the only bonus type common enough to worry about.

Secondly, a question. Would the material from the Suzerein Continuum be alright? I think it fits in power wise, its the fluff that might be a bit off. There's a free pdf on Paizo. Several of the Pulse feats and the Telesma as a variant "psicrystal" are the main things that interest me; I'm sure others would find it interesting. It's probably one of those things everyone should be on the same page about.

Suzerain stuff is fine, I like the other ideas. The king and queen sometimes scheme against each other but they're a married couple so it's complicated. They each also have other consorts.

Here's how I would construe it:

I like the idea for the twins. She's the champion of the king's captain of the guard, who represents him in ritual combats and appears as the capatain's physical scion in most scenarios. In terms of terminology, she's the squire/swordkeeper of the captain, but his is a much more important role than such a title would otherwise imply. She often wields the crazy sword used by the king's champion.

The male is the 'fixer' of the queen -- kind of a combination of James Bond and Artemis Entreri. He's not entirely within the palace hierarchy, but is something of a unique free agent. Sort of a like a bounty hunter that has attained a special prestige for this monarch, but occupies a role that isn't official and didn't really exist before this present queen.

Suzerain stuff is fine, I like the other ideas. The king and queen sometimes scheme against each other but they're a married couple so it's complicated. They each also have other consorts.

Here's how I would construe it:

I like the idea for the twins. She's the champion of the king's captain of the guard, who represents him in ritual combats and appears as the capatain's physical scion in most scenarios. In terms of terminology, she's the squire/swordkeeper of the captain, but his is a much more important role than such a title would otherwise imply. She often wields the crazy sword used by the king's champion.

The male is the 'fixer' of the queen -- kind of a combination of James Bond and Artemis Entreri. He's not entirely within the palace hierarchy, but is something of a unique free agent. Sort of a like a bounty hunter that has attained a special prestige for this monarch, but occupies a role that isn't official and didn't really exist before this present queen.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. And as long as the King/Queen aren't always against each other, it should add some fun elements to a twin dynamic - I can't tell you what I'm doing now, but next week we work together, etc.

Another setting fluff thing -- the dimension of the Black is basically like the equivalent of warpspace for the spacefaring sci-fi civilizations of the Alternity Stardrive setting, which also exist in the wider cosmology. At one point, there was apparently at least one colonization of the planet by a highly technological civilization, and the detritus of this attempt is littered over the Lands of the Well. However, none of the present civilizations really understand any of the material, so they're like the tech priests from 40k -- the priests have laser rifles they pray over they found in a wreck, and stuff of that sort.

Sebecloki wrote:

Suzerain stuff is fine, I like the other ideas. The king and queen sometimes scheme against each other but they're a married couple so it's complicated. They each also have other consorts.

Here's how I would construe it:

I like the idea for the twins. She's the champion of the king's captain of the guard, who represents him in ritual combats and appears as the capatain's physical scion in most scenarios. In terms of terminology, she's the squire/swordkeeper of the captain, but his is a much more important role than such a title would otherwise imply. She often wields the crazy sword used by the king's champion.

The male is the 'fixer' of the queen -- kind of a combination of James Bond and Artemis Entreri. He's not entirely within the palace hierarchy, but is something of a unique free agent. Sort of a like a bounty hunter that has attained a special prestige for this monarch, but occupies a role that isn't official and didn't really exist before this present queen.

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. And as long as the King/Queen aren't always against each other, it should add some fun elements to a twin dynamic - I can't tell you what I'm doing now, but next week we work together, etc.

Yeah, they have to administer their civilization together, so they have to work together, but it's also a ritual marriage, not one of love, so they each have their own favored consort(s) that is the romantic connection. That said, they do vie for control, and they each have their own parallel government/power base, so some times things get messy. I'm sure at least once in the past this ended up in violence, but that's not common, and was a long time ago.

Updated some stuff on the creation rules, keep asking me stuff and I'll keep clarifying and updating.

I'd think the Scion would fit best, then. Shadow Magic, huh...I can dig that. This:
https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multi class-archetypes/spellthief-rogue-sorcerer/
Was the spell-thief chassis I was going to work with. But with the regular spell-slots, would it be fine to assume those are shadow-magic based?

Also, for classes--Are we perusing 3.5 material as well, or sticking strictly to Pathfinder?
If 3.5 is valid, do we keep the skill requirements the same, or do we drop them by 3 points?

EDIT: I'd also like to second the Template CR/Prestige Class thing. With the sheer number of Prestige Classes available, opening up such a trade would really help diversify the flavor and roles of the playerbase.

The blink dog will largely be someone who has been physically altered by his travels, and will be very tech-centric to keep him very different in flavor from the other PCs.

I'd think the Scion would fit best, then. Shadow Magic, huh...I can dig that. This:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multi class-archetypes/spellthief-rogue-sorcerer/
Was the spell-thief chassis I was going to work with. But with the regular spell-slots, would it be fine to assume those are shadow-magic based?

Also, for classes--Are we perusing 3.5 material as well, or sticking strictly to Pathfinder?
If 3.5 is valid, do we keep the skill requirements the same, or do we drop them by 3 points?

EDIT: I'd also like to second the Template CR/Prestige Class thing. With the sheer number of Prestige Classes available, opening up such a trade would really help diversify the flavor and roles of the playerbase.

I don't think converting to spellpoints from spellslots is a big change for that archetype. As I said in the description of magic -- these are all just 'power sources' -- you can mechanically build a shadow mage multiple ways. I just want a fluff answer to what power source you're using.

You can use 3.5 stuff -- what's the standard way to convert skills? Just do whatever that is.

The blink dog will largely be someone who has been physically altered by his travels, and will be very tech-centric to keep him very different in flavor from the other PCs.

1. With stacking as mentioned 2e style, if we have 16 levels of two classes that get the same skill, we could have 32 ranks? What of caster level? CL 32 if casting is of the same type (spherecasting/prepared/spontaneous/ same list)

2. HOPF: some feats give partial levels in other classes. Do those stack too? Can they be taken multiple times for different classes and PrCs?

Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I'd think the Scion would fit best, then. Shadow Magic, huh...I can dig that. This:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multi class-archetypes/spellthief-rogue-sorcerer/
Was the spell-thief chassis I was going to work with. But with the regular spell-slots, would it be fine to assume those are shadow-magic based?

Also, for classes--Are we perusing 3.5 material as well, or sticking strictly to Pathfinder?
If 3.5 is valid, do we keep the skill requirements the same, or do we drop them by 3 points?

EDIT: I'd also like to second the Template CR/Prestige Class thing. With the sheer number of Prestige Classes available, opening up such a trade would really help diversify the flavor and roles of the playerbase.

I don't think converting to spellpoints from spellslots is a big change for that archetype. As I said in the description of magic -- these are all just 'power sources' -- you can mechanically build a shadow mage multiple ways. I just want a fluff answer to what power source you're using.

You can use 3.5 stuff -- what's the standard way to convert skills? Just do whatever that is.

Okay, cool--So I can definitely see a fluff mechanism for shadow magic, actually as much as defiling now that I think on it.

My idea is that Mr.Morally Dubious Kobold avoids being overtaken by his Shadow by limiting how much he directly uses magic. Instead, he forces others to pay the price for him with his sneak-attacks, and through the imprint of their stolen power is able to cast a dark reproduction of whatever magic they had.

Thinking it'll be a lot of relying on the strength of others--Stealing magic, stealing bodies, stealing life--And if he's going to be the Scion of a major house, that even gives me an idea as to how he entered into this sort of specialty.

He wasn't just a privileged son. He had genuine talent, extreme intellect even--But he was simply unable to manifest significant power for himself. He wasn't born strong, and he was sickly as a child. He was passed over for important positions, as he was rarely able to excel in any practical field, considered more or less no longer fit for running for head of the household.

So he decided to even the playing field. He had servants, and money. He had intelligence and plenty of time to study. If he could not have his own power, then why not use the power of others? And so he studied, learning any forbidden method that would bolster him, even at the cost of those around him.

Sound like a solid start?

** spoiler omitted **

1. With stacking as mentioned 2e style, if we have 16 levels of two classes that get the same skill, we could have 32 ranks? What of caster level? CL 32 if casting is of the same type (spherecasting/prepared/spontaneous/ same list)

2. HOPF: some feats give partial levels in other classes. Do those stack too? Can they be taken multiple times for different classes and PrCs?

1. Yeah, that's the idea, you're basically level 32.

2. You mean the gestalt HOPF? that only gives you class abilties, so I'm not sure how that would stack -- it doesn't include spellcasting, for example. Let's say that doesn't stack in the same way, because otherwise that's going to create dozens of edge cases and maybe/maybe not exceptions.

Sebecloki wrote:

Tyren Lourofesh wrote:

I'd think the Scion would fit best, then. Shadow Magic, huh...I can dig that. This:

https://www.d20pfsrd.com/extras/community-creations/cartmanbeck-s-lab/multi class-archetypes/spellthief-rogue-sorcerer/
Was the spell-thief chassis I was going to work with. But with the regular spell-slots, would it be fine to assume those are shadow-magic based?

Also, for classes--Are we perusing 3.5 material as well, or sticking strictly to Pathfinder?
If 3.5 is valid, do we keep the skill requirements the same, or do we drop them by 3 points?

EDIT: I'd also like to second the Template CR/Prestige Class thing. With the sheer number of Prestige Classes available, opening up such a trade would really help diversify the flavor and roles of the playerbase.

I don't think converting to spellpoints from spellslots is a big change for that archetype. As I said in the description of magic -- these are all just 'power sources' -- you can mechanically build a shadow mage multiple ways. I just want a fluff answer to what power source you're using.

You can use 3.5 stuff -- what's the standard way to convert skills? Just do whatever that is.

Okay, cool--So I can definitely see a fluff mechanism for shadow magic, actually as much as defiling now that I think on it.

I'll keep the spell points if it's not that important, since it makes the book-keeping a little lighter.

My idea is that Mr.Morally Dubious Kobold avoids being overtaken by his Shadow by limiting how much he directly uses magic. Instead, he forces others to pay the price for him with his sneak-attacks, and through the imprint of their stolen power is able to cast a dark reproduction of whatever magic they had.

Thinking it'll be a lot of relying on the strength of others--Stealing magic, stealing bodies, stealing life--And if he's going to be the Scion of a major house, that even gives me an idea as to how he entered into this sort of specialty.

He wasn't just a privileged son. He had...

I'm not sure what you're saying about the spell points issue. I'd rather use that than Vancian casting.

I like the fluff concept.

@Tenro / Group:

I think stacking levels past the limits (Rank 32 skills, caster level 32, etc) could lead to some pretty wild disparity... at the same time, If we are stacking skills/BAB/HD/etc, that would help with a lot of the "numbers" problems, and introduce a bit more choice; two Full BAB classes for +32 to hit, or a Full BAB and a half BAB for casting at CL 16 and a to hit of +24, or two half-BAB classes for CL 32 and a to hit of +16?

Could be interesting. Also never done 2e gestalt, so I could be completely off on how that works.

EDIT:Interestingly, stacking things as level 32 would make HOPF like gestalt give you 16 levels of a class by itself, without the mythic version; but only the class features, not any of the HD/Saves/Skills/Etc.

That's my concern with stacking HOPF gestalt -- you're going to have some people stacking another 50 levels, and some less, that's going to get out of hand really quickly. Also all the edge cases and so on and so forth.

I think the stacking for the base 32 gestalt levels will get us up to the BAB+ etc. to face the epic level monsters I want to use -- not all, but most.

Yeah for HOPF stacking I just meant like can I take it once for some fighter levels, once for some rogue levels, etc. And the Prestige once for Archmage (not gaining casting but the other stuff), once for Assassin, etc.

That might also make the DS specific classes worth it because a lot of them dont compare to PF in power.

Yeah for HOPF stacking I just meant like can I take it once for some fighter levels, once for some rogue levels, etc. And the Prestige once for Archmage (not gaining casting but the other stuff), once for Assassin, etc.

That might also make the DS specific classes worth it because a lot of them dont compare to PF in power.

You can take it multiple times, but it would work RAW. The BAB+ wouldn't stack from those HOPF 1/2 gestalt levels.

I was more-or-less saying if I could choose, I was happy to use spell-points.
Alright, cool, so the fluff is solid--Now, to make the crunch match!

Also as we are stacking, does that allow for early qualification for BAB requirement feats? Like say Vital Strike requires BAB 6, you could qualify at level 3 if you were taking two full BAB classes. Same for things in Spheres that require Xth CL.

Also as we are stacking, does that allow for early qualification for BAB requirement feats? Like say Vital Strike requires BAB 6, you could qualify at level 3 if you were taking two full BAB classes. Same for things in Spheres that require Xth CL.

yes

And to confirm: levels that come from HOPF do not grant hit dice, caster level, anything outside of special column, etc.

if you trade template levels for Prestige class levels, it is the same, yes? We are capping HD at 32, BAB at 32, CL at 32, etc?

EDIT: Regarding the dark sun prestige classes, is it possible to assume we have traveled to Athas at some point in our own past? Otherwise a lot of these wont work.

I think we should keep the limit of 16 HOPF feats and 8 Mythic ones as is. EDIT: I don't think anyone suggested otherwise, just throwing it out there.

Also, unless everyone else dives in on the Suzerain stuff as well, I'm just going with Pulse Pool (only for the purpose of Pulse feats taken with normal slots) and figuring out something to trade from a standard Psicrystal for the Telesma growth abilities... Otherwise it's a complete subsystem with extra feats, ability scores, hero points, increased healing, etc that wouldn't necessarily "unbalance" things, but is more than I am personally comfortable with as individual character divergence.

Using that first monster as a benchmark should help with everyone targeting roughly the same level, in whatever manner they choose to focus on.

Yeah i don't think that works that way.

HOPF gestalt feats kind of can make you a tristalt or multistalt, but it's weaker. Also doesn't grant spells etc.

If we're stacking literally everything, which is very much not the point of gestalt(and there was no such thing in AD&D), why not just make the PCs 32 level *normal* gestalt?

Also, you're seriously breaking the structure of the rules if you stack everything, but don't increase actual level(hence my above suggestion). You're capped at level for skills, you're capped at level for CL(in most cases), etc.

If you want the PCs to cast as 32nd level castsers, have 32 ranks in a skill, and have +32 BAB, then just make us 32nd level.

Don't mess around with the core of the game.

If we're stacking literally everything, which is very much not the point of gestalt(and there was no such thing in AD&D), why not just make the PCs 32 level *normal* gestalt?

Also, you're seriously breaking the structure of the rules if you stack everything, but don't increase actual level(hence my above suggestion). You're capped at level for skills, you're capped at level for CL(in most cases), etc.

If you want the PCs to cast as 32nd level castsers, have 32 ranks in a skill, and have +32 BAB, then just make us 32nd level.

Don't mess around with the core of the game.

Because PF classes don't have level 32 progressions, so there's nothing filling the blank levels above 20.