Kinda figured, as that was I proposing before, but wanted to make sure we're all on the same page.
River of Sticks, could you kindly pm me what you meant how to push spell damage?
I think the saves are quite ok.
I'll go with witch/bard as main classes now and uc monk + antipaladin as add on, with enchanting courtesan as PrC.
That makes on interesting character hehehe.
do we have an updated link to the new dusk kobold stats?
also we have 5 traits. are we subject to the normal limit of no more than 1 per category?
So, uh...No rules against us strategically buffing the enemy, right?
are [Gift] and [Knack] feats limited only to those 4 slots or are we able to take them with our other feat slots too? because we get 1 per 4 levels but their prerequisites are divisible by 3 (6th, 9th, 112th, 15th, etc)
also we have 5 traits. are we subject to the normal limit of no more than 1 per category?
yes
are [Gift] and [Knack] feats limited only to those 4 slots or are we able to take them with our other feat slots too? because we get 1 per 4 levels but their prerequisites are divisible by 3 (6th, 9th, 112th, 15th, etc)
other feat slots
do we have an updated link to the new dusk kobold stats?
i'll do it on Monday. I have to cut and paste stuff from several different sources.
for the Immortals Handbook, there are some divine feats that require 25 ranks in a skill. are we able to take those, since the Pathfinder equivalent would be 22 ranks in the skill?
also, while our HD and skill ranks and CL can get up to 24, i take it we are limited to not being able to cast 9th level spells until our standard 16/16 progression can cast them?
True Sight, under Chopping Down the Christmas Tree, says that it gives an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks. I assume this transfers to PF as a bonus to sight-based perception checks, but it does not list the numerical value of the bonus. what bonus should it be?
are we picking spells ONLY from porphyra?
are we able to take Deific talents from Spheres of power or might?
I would like to make a few suggestions regarding the Divine rules we'll be using:
1) I don't think we should gain access to either the divine aura or divine realm abilities. Both of them can lead to some serious complex rules issues, and this game is already going to be complicated enough.
2) I think we should use the four artifact system, as not only does it further cut down on the Christmas tree effect, but it also allows for some neat customization of items.
There's several formula in the Ascension book used to determine the bonus each possible artifact can have, but not only is it slightly confusing, but it also is based off of ECL which doesn't really apply in Pathfinder any more.
Instead, I would use our CR in order to figure out the bonuses. Which I realize can be incredibly difficult at due to all the extra rules we're using so I would suggest one of the following:
1) Just use our actual levels(16)+the CR of the Hero-Deity template(+10) for a total of 26.
2) Use our levels + the CR of all of our templates. This can cause some slight variation, as some might have more templates than others.
3) Use our levels + the extra 16 bonus levels + the CR of Hero Deity. This would give each artifact a +42.
As for how you give an artifact abilities/powers, it's relatively simple:
Armor and weapon properties cost their normal amount. Thus, if I wanted +3 leather armor with heavy fortification, it would cost me +8 from my total(26/42 if we use option 1 or 3).
However, as they are empowered by our divine essence, they can have so much more:
You can add a bonus to an ability score on a 1 to 1 basis.
You can 1 feat per +1 or an epic feat for a +2. I would suggest a mythic feat also be worth a +2.
The true power of artifacts though is their ability to grant divine(and higher) abilities. Adding a divine ability costs +6. I would also allow HOPF feats at a +6 as well, as some of them are the rough power of a divine ability.
As for bonuses, abilities and powers that have a gold piece cost(including replicating an already existing magic item or adding something custom) I would recommend allowing us to spend our **reduced** WBL to accomplish that.
Finally, while I am unsure if there's any sort of restriction on what can be applied to a given magic item, in past games that I've been in that have used these rules, we sort of went with basic common sense.
Thus, things like headgear,jewelry and the like can grant mental bonuses(be they increases to your Int or a mind based divine ability), while things like gloves, belts and such can grant physical boosts. Armor and vests fall here too. Weapons generally grant offensive abilities, while armor/vests/robes/etc, grant defensive ones.
Using the chart for legendary items from mythic is a good start, but it by no means covers everything. As I said, use common sense. If you're unsure if an artifact should grant a specific power or ability, just ask.
also, while our HD and skill ranks and CL can get up to 24, i take it we are limited to not being able to cast 9th level spells until our standard 16/16 progression can cast them?
you are limited by your class spell progression
are we able to take Deific talents from Spheres of power or might?
yes
are we picking spells ONLY from porphyra?
porphyra combines all the spell lists and reassigns divine magic to 9 levels, so you'll have to do some of that work yourself if you want to use unconverted divine spell weaving I guess.
True Sight, under Chopping Down the Christmas Tree, says that it gives an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks. I assume this transfers to PF as a bonus to sight-based perception checks, but it does not list the numerical value of the bonus. what bonus should it be?
is that a typo?
for the Immortals Handbook, there are some divine feats that require 25 ranks in a skill. are we able to take those, since the Pathfinder equivalent would be 22 ranks in the skill?
yes, just make commonsense conversions like this
True Sight, under Chopping Down the Christmas Tree, says that it gives an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks. I assume this transfers to PF as a bonus to sight-based perception checks, but it does not list the numerical value of the bonus. what bonus should it be?is that a typo?
Not a typo. This is the copied text:
True Sight [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may gain the benefits of true seeing and analyze dweomer, as the spells, and an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks, for as long as you wish. At the end of each round that the effect is active, you must make a DC 20 Will save or take a point of Wisdom damage.
My suggestion would be a bonus equal to either level/HD or half level/HD, though I feel = to level fits the power of the abilities at level more.
True Sight, under Chopping Down the Christmas Tree, says that it gives an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks. I assume this transfers to PF as a bonus to sight-based perception checks, but it does not list the numerical value of the bonus. what bonus should it be?is that a typo?Not a typo. This is the copied text:
True Sight [Gift]
Prerequisite: Character Level 12
Benefit: As an immediate action, you may gain the benefits of true seeing and analyze dweomer, as the spells, and an insight bonus to Spot and Search checks, for as long as you wish. At the end of each round that the effect is active, you must make a DC 20 Will save or take a point of Wisdom damage.My suggestion would be a bonus equal to either level/HD or half level/HD, though I feel = to level fits the power of the abilities at level more.
I meant if that was a typo in the description. Maybe we should just contact the person on the forum who made this to see what they intended? Is there a parallel ability that indicates what the amount should be?
We could try but they may not even check that site anymore.
Grud still posts on a regular basis. I read over the discussion and nobody brought up the lack of what the insight bonus is supposed to be.
Seb, could I use the Master of Domains HOPF to instead gain another inquisition for the inquisitor?
MASTER OF DOMAINS
[Horrifically Overpowered]
You attunement to your deity grants you access to
additional domains.
Prerequisite: Domain class feature.
Benefit: Choose an additional domain from your
available domains. You now have access to that
domain’s spells and granted powers in addition to
any domains you already possess.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Each
time you take the feat, it applies to a different domain.
Also, one of the rules is that we gain the skill unlocks for all skills we have. Just an FYI, that's a HOPF, Omin-skilled. Unsure if you knew that or not.
This campaign seems...interesting. I was drawn in by the setting info but the character creation guidelines seem to have gone some places.
Are you still accepting new applications and are the rules in Campaign info finalized at this point?
I would like to make a few suggestions regarding the Divine rules we'll be using:
1) I don't think we should gain access to either the divine aura or divine realm abilities. Both of them can lead to some serious complex rules issues, and this game is already going to be complicated enough.
2) I think we should use the four artifact system, as not only does it further cut down on the Christmas tree effect, but it also allows for some neat customization of items.
There's several formula in the Ascension book used to determine the bonus each possible artifact can have, but not only is it slightly confusing, but it also is based off of ECL which doesn't really apply in Pathfinder any more.
Instead, I would use our CR in order to figure out the bonuses. Which I realize can be incredibly difficult at due to all the extra rules we're using so I would suggest one of the following:
1) Just use our actual levels(16)+the CR of the Hero-Deity template(+10) for a total of 26.
2) Use our levels + the CR of all of our templates. This can cause some slight variation, as some might have more templates than others.
3) Use our levels + the extra 16 bonus levels + the CR of Hero Deity. This would give each artifact a +42.
As for how you give an artifact abilities/powers, it's relatively simple:
Armor and weapon properties cost their normal amount. Thus, if I wanted +3 leather armor with heavy fortification, it would cost me +8 from my total(26/42 if we use option 1 or 3).
However, as they are empowered by our divine essence, they can have so much more:
You can add a bonus to an ability score on a 1 to 1 basis.
You can 1 feat per +1 or an epic feat for a +2. I would suggest a mythic feat also be worth a +2.
The true power of artifacts though is their ability to grant divine(and higher) abilities. Adding a divine ability costs +6. I would also allow HOPF feats at a +6 as well, as some of them are the rough power of a divine ability.
As for bonuses, abilities and powers...
Seb you got a ruling on this?
Seb, could I use the Master of Domains HOPF to instead gain another inquisition for the inquisitor?
** spoiler omitted **
Also, one of the rules is that we gain the skill unlocks for all skills we have. Just an FYI, that's a HOPF, Omin-skilled. Unsure if you knew that or not.
I guess we can just exchange that HOPF for the individual skill unlock feats then. The mechanical result I want is everyone has skill unlocks for every skill they have because I want skills and skill usage to be a big part of this game.
This campaign seems...interesting. I was drawn in by the setting info but the character creation guidelines seem to have gone some places.
Are you still accepting new applications and are the rules in Campaign info finalized at this point?
They're not finalized yet; there are a lot of details, and this is going to be like a month or more long process, with a lot of discussion and back and forth. You'll have to be comfortable with a drawn out process. I'm open to another player.
...I would like to make a few suggestions regarding the Divine rules we'll be using:
1) I don't think we should gain access to either the divine aura or divine realm abilities. Both of them can lead to some serious complex rules issues, and this game is already going to be complicated enough.
2) I think we should use the four artifact system, as not only does it further cut down on the Christmas tree effect, but it also allows for some neat customization of items.
There's several formula in the Ascension book used to determine the bonus each possible artifact can have, but not only is it slightly confusing, but it also is based off of ECL which doesn't really apply in Pathfinder any more.
Instead, I would use our CR in order to figure out the bonuses. Which I realize can be incredibly difficult at due to all the extra rules we're using so I would suggest one of the following:
1) Just use our actual levels(16)+the CR of the Hero-Deity template(+10) for a total of 26.
2) Use our levels + the CR of all of our templates. This can cause some slight variation, as some might have more templates than others.
3) Use our levels + the extra 16 bonus levels + the CR of Hero Deity. This would give each artifact a +42.
As for how you give an artifact abilities/powers, it's relatively simple:
Armor and weapon properties cost their normal amount. Thus, if I wanted +3 leather armor with heavy fortification, it would cost me +8 from my total(26/42 if we use option 1 or 3).
However, as they are empowered by our divine essence, they can have so much more:
You can add a bonus to an ability score on a 1 to 1 basis.
You can 1 feat per +1 or an epic feat for a +2. I would suggest a mythic feat also be worth a +2.
The true power of artifacts though is their ability to grant divine(and higher) abilities. Adding a divine ability costs +6. I would also allow HOPF feats at a +6 as well, as some of them are the rough power of a divine ability.
As for
This seems fine if no one else has objections -- let's go with the CR 42 option.
Seb, could I use the Master of Domains HOPF to instead gain another inquisition for the inquisitor?
Is this okay? In comparison, an extra domain adds 2-3 granted powers, along with spells from 1-9th level, whereas an inquisition just adds several granted powers(Inquisitors do not gain any bonus spells from domains or inquisitions).
This seems fine if no one else has objections -- let's go with the CR 42 option.
Just a warning, the +42 option potentially gives us 4 cosmic abilities total, as each cosmic costs is the equivalent of +36. This would still leave us with +6, meaning we could then take another divine ability.
Personally, I think we should go with the +26 option, thereby avoiding cosmic abilities, which will **vastly** increase our power.
My 2cp: Why do we need to be this powerful for a game like this?
The base premise is a game set on Athas, or at least an alternate version of Athas, a planet known for its high lethality.
If we start the game at CR 26 or whatever, death is already cheap, especially given the usual Athasian restrictions on magic availability seem to have been removed.
It seems to kind of muddle the initial premise of "unlikely heroes" facing off against the horrible darkness if everyone is able to 1v1 Cthulhu from the start of the game.
My 2cp: Why do we need to be this powerful for a game like this?
The base premise is a game set on Athas, or at least an alternate version of Athas, a planet known for its high lethality.
If we start the game at CR 26 or whatever, death is already cheap, especially given the usual Athasian restrictions on magic availability seem to have been removed.
It seems to kind of muddle the initial premise of "unlikely heroes" facing off against the horrible darkness if everyone is able to 1v1 Cthulhu from the start of the game.
i kind of like it. i mean in most DS games you are low level nobodies barely scraping out a survival. You hear as a character or know of as a player all these powerful forces... Sorceror Kings, Borys, etc. Other planes in the cosmology. Ancient ruins in the silt sea. Forests on the other side of mountains the average person would never have a nightmare of traversing.
These sorts of challenges are more likely for us to face than just some raging mellikot or band of kreen hunters. You can see an entirely different side of Athas (and the alternate cosmology described which is actually much more easy to survive in) not to mention the story premise already presented.
My main qualm is that those things don't really sound like challenges any more.
If the GM is up to it, it could work, but it'd be a shame for this to be another of those games that acts as a very interesting character creation challenge that fizzles out before the gameplay even starts, or very quickly afterwards.
See here, here, here, and especially here (I still have the unused character sheet for this one. =/)
A little extra power is always great. Gestalt is fun, I've run gestalt games to great success in the past. Starting at a somewhat higher level? Also very workable. It's when templates come in that things get iffy (so many templates are under or over CR'd; this is particularly wonky when 16 CR worth of templates means you MUST have multiple stacking templates which almost certainly were not designed to work together), and adding even more and more on top of that makes designing challenges and keeping inter-party balance exponentially harder.
Not trying to rain on people's parade here, just throwing in a dissenting opinion that at the very least STARTING at a lower power level so there's some sense of progression and growing into your powers might be a worthwhile idea, since IME people SAY they want these things but when it comes actually time to play, people tend to find it's more work for them than they expected on both sides of the screen, and just drift off.
If you followed the early part of the discussion, you'll see that I have specific monsters in mind for the encounters, and we've been building around some examples.
We're pretty knee deep in character building right now, and I don't think anyone else is going to want to go back and do a complete redesign at this point. I'm not really interested in doing that either.
The concept of the campaign is that you're the highest level in your society that can leave (1 level below the king and high priest, etc.), and you're saving your entire civilization from a society-ending peril, so the power level is warranted.
yeah i definitely dont want to do a redesign. i'm in pretty deep on this character and have a huge backstory going on. sure the rules are wonky and the power is off the charts, but we are facing some creatures that are... quite frankly insane. stuff that make the 3.5 Epic Level Handbook look like a level 6 barbarian getting tossed out of a bar.
Also, a large part of this campaign is going to be the world building/role-playing dimension. There will be some set piece encounters that are melee, but the majority of it is going to be detective work, talking. Think of something like Tides of Numenera: Torment, but with a couple of high level combats interspersed. There's going to be lots of exposition and long posts with setting details -- descriptions of architecture and rituals and that sort of thing.
Fair enough, and that second part is more reassuring. I figured I'd just throw my thoughts out there.
Initial thematic mind-springing is "Xartuk, the Mind Weaver", an Umbral Kobold with the Nightmare Lord template (among others, of course) who acts as a sort of court spymaster.
I'm wondering if I can find a way to finagle a character who exists in the Realm of Dreams constantly but can still affect the Material.
Seb, could I use the Master of Domains HOPF to instead gain another inquisition for the inquisitor?Is this okay? In comparison, an extra domain adds 2-3 granted powers, along with spells from 1-9th level, whereas an inquisition just adds several granted powers(Inquisitors do not gain any bonus spells from domains or inquisitions).
I believe this got lost in the shuffle.
This seems fine if no one else has objections -- let's go with the CR 42 option.Just a warning, the +42 option potentially gives us 4 cosmic abilities total, as each cosmic costs is the equivalent of +36. This would still leave us with +6, meaning we could then take another divine ability.
Personally, I think we should go with the +26 option, thereby avoiding cosmic abilities, which will **vastly** increase our power.
As I think this did as well.
Finished reading the thread, seems we already have a spymaster concept, but perhaps an alternate role for Xartuk makes the dream-construct idea salvageable.
Maybe more of a standard "protector" role. He's a guardsman, but rather than one which protects form physical threats, he protects the royalty from abstract and metaphysical threats on the less monitored planes.
People tend to guard against attacks from the Astral and Ethereal, all of the aligned Planes, etc. but not everyone thinks to plan for assaults from the realm of Dreams, the depths of the First World, or the myriad scattered demiplanes created by mages across the planes, which could act as an unwitting back door to any plane of an unscrupulous user's choice.
Some minor clarifications.
These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:
Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign info
Additionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.
Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?
These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign infoAdditionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.
Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?
HOPF is Horrifically Overpowered Feat, yes. You can take 16 total, and a separate pool of 8 Mythic HOPF. You have 16 CR of templates, which can be traded out 1:1 for prestige class levels.
Up to 8 levels of prestige classes (from the 16 CR pool, from HOPF, or other methods) can be added to HD for the purposes of BAB, skills, saves, and caster/initiator/manifester/veilweaver/etc level. These additional 8 HD do not count for anything beyond those things, though; no additional ABP, no additional abilities on a "every X HD" chassis, etc.
Its also ABP +2, and the Chopping the Christmas Tree linked in the original bit. Finally, the domain/deity thing is an Immortal Handbook: Ascension thing, and most of us are still figuring it out. MonkeyGod seems to have the best idea of it?
As I think this did as well.This seems fine if no one else has objections -- let's go with the CR 42 option.Just a warning, the +42 option potentially gives us 4 cosmic abilities total, as each cosmic costs is the equivalent of +36. This would still leave us with +6, meaning we could then take another divine ability.
Personally, I think we should go with the +26 option, thereby avoiding cosmic abilities, which will **vastly** increase our power.
Already replied to that
Finished reading the thread, seems we already have a spymaster concept, but perhaps an alternate role for Xartuk makes the dream-construct idea salvageable.
Maybe more of a standard "protector" role. He's a guardsman, but rather than one which protects form physical threats, he protects the royalty from abstract and metaphysical threats on the less monitored planes.
People tend to guard against attacks from the Astral and Ethereal, all of the aligned Planes, etc. but not everyone thinks to plan for assaults from the realm of Dreams, the depths of the First World, or the myriad scattered demiplanes created by mages across the planes, which could act as an unwitting back door to any plane of an unscrupulous user's choice.
Some minor clarifications.
These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:
Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign infoAdditionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.
Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?
There is no realm of dreams. There are dozens of elemental planes, the elemental chaos, the astral plane, the Black, and the Gray.
I believe this got lost in the shuffle.Seb, could I use the Master of Domains HOPF to instead gain another inquisition for the inquisitor?Is this okay? In comparison, an extra domain adds 2-3 granted powers, along with spells from 1-9th level, whereas an inquisition just adds several granted powers(Inquisitors do not gain any bonus spells from domains or inquisitions).
Fine
You said 'if nobody else has objections'. I'm objecting, lol.
Some examples:
Cosmic Toughness
Your HD become D100s.
Exclusivity
You can only be affected by one opponent each round.
Heavy Eradication
100% chance to overcome crit immunity.
Legendary Ability Score
Single ability score doubled.
Etc, etc, etc....
There is no realm of dreams. There are dozens of elemental planes, the elemental chaos, the astral plane, the Black, and the Gray.Finished reading the thread, seems we already have a spymaster concept, but perhaps an alternate role for Xartuk makes the dream-construct idea salvageable.
Maybe more of a standard "protector" role. He's a guardsman, but rather than one which protects form physical threats, he protects the royalty from abstract and metaphysical threats on the less monitored planes.
People tend to guard against attacks from the Astral and Ethereal, all of the aligned Planes, etc. but not everyone thinks to plan for assaults from the realm of Dreams, the depths of the First World, or the myriad scattered demiplanes created by mages across the planes, which could act as an unwitting back door to any plane of an unscrupulous user's choice.
Some minor clarifications.
These are the charop guidelines as they currently exist, to my knowledge:
Level 16 Gestalt
Tier 8 Mythic "gestalt" (I'm assuming this means we choose two Paths, similarly as if everyone took the Dual Path mythic Feat, but we also get double teh talents?)
16 CR worth of templates
8 "free" levels of a Prestige Class (?)
Houserules mentioned in Campaign infoAdditionally we have some sort of Domain ability that effectively makes us demigods (aside Mythic)? I saw the acronym HOPF multiple times across the last 8 pages but I must have missed where it was explained what exactly that was.
Edit: Ah, I think HOPF stands for "Horrifically Overpowered Feats", then?
Does this mean templates like Nightmare Creature and Dreamkiller Creature are unavailable then? Or do they exist, but simply do not represent a formal "realm of dreams", merely the ability to invade sleeping minds?
Sounds good to me. muahahahaha