Yeah, I didn't include everything, just the major points.
As for the trade in for templates exceeding X levels, yeah, that's the benefit, as the templates still add your overall CR. Seb and I discussed this in my linked posts above and he agreed.
Yeah, I didn't include everything, just the major points.
As for the trade in for templates exceeding X levels, yeah, that's the benefit, as the templates still add your overall CR. Seb and I discussed this in my linked posts above and he agreed.
I'm only ok if everyone else is -- I want you all to decide between yourselves what rules you want and then I'll fix the campaign page.
I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page. I'm good with that, and MG's summary post plus the follow up items.
FYI for anyone interested, TPK games has a short series of "Feats Reforged" that turn them into scaling feats. The best ones seem to be on the level of Porphyra, while some of the worst ones didn't really help much, but it might be worth looking at.
Yeah, I've seen that, but is it on an srd? I think it's going to be hard to use if everyone has to buy the whole set.
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Unfortunately I cannot find them on an SRD...
One suggestion I do have - allow similar classes to poach talents. IE, an Avenger Vigilante can choose slayer talents, a stalker vigilante can choose rogue talents or investigator talents, a rogue can choose ninja tricks or investigator talents, etc. I can't say I've actually looked to see how balanced it would all end up, though.
There are already a system for that though -- there is a rogue talent that lets you take a ninja trick and vice versa. I'd be surprised if that didn't exist for most classes. If not, let's just write some new talents using the exact same wording like this:
Slayer Talent (Ex)
Benefit: A rogue with this talent can choose a talent from the slayer latent list.
Special: A rogue can pick this talent more than once.
Note: A rogue cannot choose a slayer talent with the same name as a rogue talent.
I guess the other option for the feats reforged is I buy them and cut and paste them into the rules bible?
EDIT: I'd imagine in that case I'd only make the rules bible visible to the players in the game, cause I'm wary about copyright issues if it's available to everyone.
If someone can come up with a list of all the new talents we need to do all the cross class stuff, I'll actually write up all these talents to add to the rules bible. Example: Slayer Rouge//Rouge Slayer; Investigator/Rouge//Rouge/Investigator
I hate myself for even saying this because I just spent like an hour putting together a map for the village in this game, but I have an idea for another Cypher system setting game using these rules: Predation.
The setting is humans traveled into dinosaur times and set up a civilization there then lost the ability to get back. It'd be like d20 modern -- a bunch of classes would be outlawed and you couldn't have magic, only psionics, which would be mutant abilities, not magic. Maybe we could do that as a 1 shot sometime next year.
I just wanted to make sure I was on the same page. I'm good with that, and MG's summary post plus the follow up items.
Same here. I think things are covered nicely.
FYI for anyone interested, TPK games has a short series of "Feats Reforged" that turn them into scaling feats. The best ones seem to be on the level of Porphyra, while some of the worst ones didn't really help much, but it might be worth looking at.
I'm not opposed to this but it's also not a dealbreaker for me.
I hate myself for even saying this because I just spent like an hour putting together a map for the village in this game, but I have an idea for another Cypher system setting game using these rules: Predation.
The setting is humans traveled into dinosaur times and set up a civilization there then lost the ability to get back. It'd be like d20 modern -- a bunch of classes would be outlawed and you couldn't have magic, only psionics, which would be mutant abilities, not magic. Maybe we could do that as a 1 shot sometime next year.
Could be fun. Though a one-shot in pbp could be a tad longer. ;)
The other issue with scaling feats is -- are we going to limit feat selection to the scaling feats, or do you have to convert any other feat you want to use to some sort of scaling scheme if you use it?
I can easily do the extra cross-class talents (though I think a lot of this already exists), but I don't think I can rewrite every imaginable individual feat as a scaling feat.
That is a good question. Without having a copy of the scaling feats to examine, it's hard for me to make a call on it. I suspect that Elephant in the Room's modifications should do the job well enough if we can't come to agreement on this new set of scaling feats.
I just figured we'd take a scaling feat over the regular one where one existed, sort of as a bonus. I can work with anyone to see if a feat is on the list, or throw a snapshot of the table of contents up or something.
Or I can avoid them entirely if the group doesn't want to use them at all.
I'd be happy to buy the set and incorporate them into a rules document that would only be available to members of our little compact. I just want to make sure we're all on the same page with this before I do that.
@River of Sticks: Do you believe that this set of feats would make a significant improvement to the game over say, Elephant in the Room?
I wouldn't worry about trying to scale all the feats. While some of them would be easy(those that grant numeric bonuses or times per day abilities), there's plenty of feats that would be trickier.
Do you think we need to bother with that at all if we're using the Elephant feat tax rules?
The other thing I want to talk about is the 'Epic' stuff -- I'd like to come up with standard rules for how we'd incorporate the Immortals: Ascension stuff we're using in the Kobold game into this system -- at what level to characters get what stuff, and how much -- what's the whole power curve/environment for this multiverse, etc.
Updated some more stuff on the campaign info page. I still need to go through all the spell points for PF and update the tables where 3.5 has a higher value -- I don't have time to do that until next week, but that's a pretty simple modification.
Do you think we need to bother with that at all if we're using the Elephant feat tax rules?
The other thing I want to talk about is the 'Epic' stuff -- I'd like to come up with standard rules for how we'd incorporate the Immortals: Ascension stuff we're using in the Kobold game into this system -- at what level to characters get what stuff, and how much -- what's the whole power curve/environment for this multiverse, etc.
doing one divine rank per 5 levels of the starting character level would be a possible place to start. for instance, we had a level 16 game with divine rank 3.
or you could do rank 1 at lv1, rank 2 at lv6, rank 3 at lv11, rank 4 at lv16, rank 5 at lv21, etc
As I said in the Umbral Kobold game, each divine template has a minimum HD requirement.
The first rank, Disciple, requires 5HD. Prophets require 10, and Hero-Deity(what we're using in the UK game) requires 15.
This would mean that currently, the Rise PCs would not gain a divine template, while the Dark Sun and Numenera PCs could gain Disciple.
Now, while some PCs **could** potentially gain 6 levels with this revision, I would not allow them to the Prophet template.
In fact, I would strongly suggest that these templates only be applied through some sort of incredibly major in game event.
Gaining mythic tiers is already supposed to be accompanied by suitably epic trials, so becoming divine(even if only barely) should also tie into a similarly massive occurrence. Please do not just hand them out as bonuses or 'just cuz'.
I'm imagining using this system to replace the Immortal rules from basic DnD.
I'm staring to see this cosmology as one without real gods.
Every 'divine' being in fact is or was, for those that are dead, an ascended mortal or lesser creature. The 'Elemental Lords' are just elementals that got super powerful, for example, they're not categorically different from the rest of their kind.
All the 'gods' of Athas were just Immortals that were killed.
That's adding a lot of additional power -- I'm still trying to work out appropriate monsters, and we're already at 20CR monsters with mythic tiers.
I think we should probably treat all the Immortals Ascension stuff as the equivalent of our 'mythic', and the mythic as just part of the base rules.
Consequently, it's something that only exists under certain circumstances and you get with certain tasks, but it's a parallel system that exists independent of the rest of the game to a great extent.
So, for right now, barring the Kobold game, no one will get any of that. The only way the Dark Sun PCs will get any of those abilities is if they do something major like kill Dregoth.
hopefully we are at the bottom of this then now? i'd like to start building the next character for RotRL and don't want to have to rebuild halfway through so i am waiting on the aligned ruleset
I think we're still deciding about feats.
Could everyone look at the campaign info page I have here and tell me if anything needs to be added or is missing or needs to be clarified?
@River of Sticks: Do you believe that this set of feats would make a significant improvement to the game over say, Elephant in the Room?
They both look to do different things. Elephant says "Here's a bunch of poor feats in a chain, lets condense it" while the Reforged feats are more "Here's a feat by itself, lets give it some progression at 7th/13th/19th levels".
There is a bit of overlap in some of them - Two Weapon Fighting comes to mind - but the Reforged feats are less about feat trees/chains and more the individual feat.
I would personally be inclined towards using both, without trying to scale feats that aren't already done. If they are in there, great! There's some cool progression with the character. If the feat you want doesn't scale, you still wanted it for a reason, right?
@River of Sticks: Do you believe that this set of feats would make a significant improvement to the game over say, Elephant in the Room?They both look to do different things. Elephant says "Here's a bunch of poor feats in a chain, lets condense it" while the Reforged feats are more "Here's a feat by itself, lets give it some progression at 7th/13th/19th levels".
There is a bit of overlap in some of them - Two Weapon Fighting comes to mind - but the Reforged feats are less about feat trees/chains and more the individual feat.
I would personally be inclined towards using both, without trying to scale feats that aren't already done. If they are in there, great! There's some cool progression with the character. If the feat you want doesn't scale, you still wanted it for a reason, right?
makes sense to me
If we're going to do that, I'll get the feats reforged series so I can give the info to anyone who needs it.
so should i be using the campaign tab, or only the lokifinder link on there?
The lokifinder link has everything written out about defense bonuses, the armor as DR system, wounds and vigor etc., so you'll need to reference it to know how this stuff is actually going to work.
I don't have all the overarching build rules input there yet. I'm going to try to make a comprehensive document, but this will take time. It will probably have to be around the size of the Kirthfinder document. I've already spent a good deal of time trying to reconcile a lot of these systems into a single set of rules, editing and integrating 3.5 and different pathfinder stuff.
ah ok. im very keen on starting a build for an incoming character (which will be a welcome injection of player activity, i assume) but need those rules
I'm still not clear what we're doing about feats.
The rest of it should be pretty comprehensive. As I said, the linked document is just an explanation about how some subsystems work -- I already typed out the major things in bullet point summaries.
Edit: I updated a few things, can everyone please look and tell me what needs to be reorganized or clarified, give me re-written bits of stuff if you want. I want to have this as a template to cut and paste into all the other games, so let's get it sorted out here.
The other things I need to add for this game are: color alignments and whatever it is we did for ability scores.
I really need to begin the rework of Aleister like now, as having access to all his abilities will be rather important, I think.
Stop fretting over every minor detail. Until it was mentioned yesterday by River, 'feats reforged' weren't even a consideration.
There's literally 1000s of books out there, and there will continue to be more books as time goes on.
Let's put a limiter on things, now, before we get too crazy.
I just mentioned the scaling feats as a 3PP resource worth looking at. They aren't a seperate sub system or anything super complicated - it's literally just another 3PP book with lists of feats. I wasn't intending to push them in - or out - as an explicit note in the chargen rules.
I just mentioned the scaling feats as a 3PP resource worth looking at. They aren't a seperate sub system or anything super complicated - it's literally just another 3PP book with lists of feats. I wasn't intending to push them in - or out - as an explicit note in the chargen rules.
sounds good, so they can fall under the existing "3pp allowed" clause.
for the UK game we did, i believe, 204-208 point buy or something
that's way above the attributes people used for the other games -- though I forget what we did for each one, it was different in each case.
Let's just say you can use Feats Reforged if you want and call it a day. Everyone look over the campaign info tab and see if anything is unclear or needs to be updated.
In Rise we're only 3rd levek right now, I assume we're sticking with that for now?
Let's just say you can use Feats Reforged if you want and call it a day. Everyone look over the campaign info tab and see if anything is unclear or needs to be updated.
Sounds fair to me.
I suggest a minor rearrangement. If you place the note about charisma instead of constitution for wounds and vigour before the rest of the rules for wounds and vigour, it might head off a little confusion.
Once I get the go-ahead, I'm happy to make changes as presented to The Unfettered Prince.
Looking over the color wheel for alingment and it's basically the colors for Magic the Gathering. Each pairing would be the guilds of Ravnica.
I would like to suggest using this for all your games, but I would like to have the option to mix any and all colors. Which, I'm not sure is the case or not.
Hamza for example would be Black, Blue and Red, aka Grixis. Best represented by Nicol Bolas.
But, Aleister might be White, Blue, Red aka Jeskai. Narset is a famous Jeskai character.
The color system is supposed to model a the 'tides' of Numenera from the video game, so its specifically connected to Numenera fluff.
I'm way of messing up anything mechanical anyone in other games linked to an alignment, we'd have to have everyone else agree.
There's a variant that might work well for Dark Sun from Unchained
Radiant and Shadow: You can instead have alignment-based effects apply to everyone, or nearly everyone. Remove the alignments and replace “good” and “evil” with stand-ins that lack moral implications, such as “radiant” and “shadow.”
Let's just say you can use Feats Reforged if you want and call it a day. Everyone look over the campaign info tab and see if anything is unclear or needs to be updated.Sounds fair to me.
I suggest a minor rearrangement. If you place the note about charisma instead of constitution for wounds and vigour before the rest of the rules for wounds and vigour, it might head off a little confusion.
Once I get the go-ahead, I'm happy to make changes as presented to The Unfettered Prince.
You can go ahead and start working on it. This is going to be the equivalent of a 'level up' from dealing with the octopuses.
Looking over the color wheel for alingment and it's basically the colors for Magic the Gathering. Each pairing would be the guilds of Ravnica.
I would like to suggest using this for all your games, but I would like to have the option to mix any and all colors. Which, I'm not sure is the case or not.
Hamza for example would be Black, Blue and Red, aka Grixis. Best represented by Nicol Bolas.
But, Aleister might be White, Blue, Red aka Jeskai. Narset is a famous Jeskai character.
I think it's fine as it is in the Numenera game. If someone wants to just pair two colours, they can already.
You can go ahead and start working on it. This is going to be the equivalent of a 'level up' from dealing with the octopuses.
Cheers, Sebecloki!
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@All:
I do have a notion that I'd like to run by folk. The theme is that the Unfettered Prince has tonnes of untapped potential but hasn't quite learned how to use it all yet.
I'm looking at the combination of the following templates (with the last one from 3.x):
Half-celestial, +2 CR (already have) +4 Cha
Advanced, +1 CR, +4 Cha
Fortune-blessed creature, +1 CR
Suzerain Creature, +1 CR, +6 Cha
Solaric Creature, +0 CR, +4 Cha
Giantblooded Creature, +1 CR
Dungeonbred Monster, +0 LA
This would leave his Charisma at least 35. With this ability from Suzerain creature, he would be giving a serious ongoing buff to allies (at least +14):
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Inspiring Example (Ex)
Each ally within 60 feet of the suzerain that can see or hear it gains a morale bonus equal to the suzerain’s Charisma modifier on all attack and damage rolls, checks, and saves so long as the suzerain is alive or not destroyed.
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So, what do you all think? On par for what we're doing here? Over-the-top? Other?
As others said, it doesn't bother me. :P
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+1 CR Template = 2 Gestalt levels = 1 Mythic Tier
...is the current exchange rate, correct?
What happens on a level-up?
And will there be a max template level? As in, once you have +X CR in templates, you must choose a different option? Levels and mythic tiers already have a max built-in (20 & 10), so I wonder.
Excellent question, Arc. I'm waiting a bit longer to chew over options and hear feedback.
There's no 20 max for levels -- you can just add on more prestige classes or base class levels -- 10/10/20/10//10 MR etc.