Redemption: Tides of Numenera

Game Master Sebecloki


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Dark Archive

When i remember right, we are currently more or less naked.

@Seb: I recommend typing everything in a word document, then copy/paste to the Paizo site.


I have a word document for the house rules, not the build rules for characters.

I also have to turn a lot of stuff that's just board comments back and forth between people into real prose.


Until I have a chance to work on an update again -- I'm going to make the stat rules the same for every game: you get 108pts. flat value, with no min/max to spend of abilities, one-one conversion (this isn't a point buy).

Also, I'm going to make the kobold game rule about doubling all health apply consistently too. So, whatever you have for vigor and wounds, double that.


Sebecloki wrote:

Until I have a chance to work on an update again -- I'm going to make the stat rules the same for every game: you get 108pts. flat value, with no min/max to spend of abilities, one-one conversion (this isn't a point buy).

Also, I'm going to make the kobold game rule about doubling all health apply consistently too. So, whatever you have for vigor and wounds, double that.

Ability scores are similar to the umbral kobold game, just less to spend, and I would assume starting at 10 as opposed to 18?

And for all games, right? So, Hamza and Aleister would require re-works on that end?

Dark Archive

Is that correct? An average starting score of 28?


no you just start with 108 pts. flat value, that's straight 18s you can maniuplate.


Monkeygod wrote:
Sebecloki wrote:

Until I have a chance to work on an update again -- I'm going to make the stat rules the same for every game: you get 108pts. flat value, with no min/max to spend of abilities, one-one conversion (this isn't a point buy).

Also, I'm going to make the kobold game rule about doubling all health apply consistently too. So, whatever you have for vigor and wounds, double that.

Ability scores are similar to the umbral kobold game, just less to spend, and I would assume starting at 10 as opposed to 18?

And for all games, right? So, Hamza and Aleister would require re-works on that end?

Yes, let's just make that consistent. Again, it's NOT 28 average, or whatever. You get 108 flat points. That's 6 x 18. You can manipulate that on a 1 to 1 basis, with no min or maximum.

Dark Archive

Ahh, that makes more sense.


Hang on,

I asked above if we would start at 10s in all stats (human average) and buy from there, and Seb seemed to agree.

Yet, in that same post, you say we could get 6 x18s, which would mean we start at zero in all stats and buy up from there. Technically, that's not possible, as there's several ability scores where if you have a zero in them, you're dead...


Monkeygod wrote:

Hang on,

I asked above if we would start at 10s in all stats (human average) and buy from there, and Seb seemed to agree.

Yet, in that same post, you say we could get 6 x18s, which would mean we start at zero in all stats and buy up from there. Technically, that's not possible, as there's several ability scores where if you have a zero in them, you're dead...

I wasn't agreeing; don't make it 0 in that case.


Sebecloki wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:

Hang on,

I asked above if we would start at 10s in all stats (human average) and buy from there, and Seb seemed to agree.

Yet, in that same post, you say we could get 6 x18s, which would mean we start at zero in all stats and buy up from there. Technically, that's not possible, as there's several ability scores where if you have a zero in them, you're dead...

I wasn't agreeing; don't make it 0 in that case.

Just to make sure, as this is incredibly important:

Start at 10s in all stats, then spend 108 points on a 1 to 1 basis. No minimum, no maximum?


No. You have 108 pts. you can spend 1-103 on your six ability scores.


That's not gonna work dude.

As most of us have several characters already built, being forced to completely re-stat them from zeros in their ability scores could likely end up with their stats being weaker than what they currently are.


I don't see how that would be weaker than when you rolled ability scores to start out with -- did anyone start with straight 18s?

However, If that's going to create a problem, we need to decide what system we're going to use in each game to make things consistent.


Sebecloki wrote:

I don't see how that would be weaker than when you rolled ability scores to start out with -- did anyone start with straight 18s?

However, If that's going to create a problem, we need to decide what system we're going to use in each game to make things consistent.

Because you start with at a base of 10, and then buy your stats from there.

That's 60 'free points' in your suggested system.

I'm curious, what's wrong with using your current methods for ability score generation:

(1) 35pt. buy, (2) roll 2d6 + 6 as many times as you like, or (3) 5d6 drop the lowest 2.


I thought we should try to unify everything -- we can stick with the other methods if you'd prefer.

I still don't understand how straight 18s flat 1-1 points could be less than what people already have from rolling.

Dark Archive

I am unclear as to what the issue is. How can 1 for 1 be weaker?


Just checking,

Dark Sun used the above (1) 35pt. buy, (2) roll 2d6 + 6 as many times as you like, or (3) 5d6 drop the lowest 2 ability scores.

Rise is 50pt buy, while Numenera is a 40pt.

Point buy is apparently your preferred method to offer the PCs, so I think we could pick one of those, and be fine.

How about 50pts, start at base 10s, but 1 to 1?


Monkeygod wrote:

Just checking,

Dark Sun used the above (1) 35pt. buy, (2) roll 2d6 + 6 as many times as you like, or (3) 5d6 drop the lowest 2 ability scores.

Rise is 50pt buy, while Numenera is a 40pt.

Point buy is apparently your preferred method to offer the PCs, so I think we could pick one of those, and be fine.

How about 50pts, start at base 10s, but 1 to 1?

you are literally gimping your character. there is no way you can surpass all 18s with any of the methods you mentioned. if there is, i'm going to need you to show me mathematically how.

50 points, 1-to-1 on top of all 10s gets you a grand total of 2 more points than the 108pt buy method turns out to be


I'm w/ Tenro and Slyness -- I don't want to do something unfair, but I'm completely befuddled by the objection.


Sebecloki wrote:
I'm w/ Tenro and Slyness -- I don't want to do something unfair, but I'm completely befuddled by the objection.

Part of the objection is having to attempt to completely rebuild Hamza, and being unsure if I can end up with the same stats. Because if they are off too much, that means I need to actually recalculate his sheet.

I don't think you realize just how much work each of us has put into one PC for your games, let alone several.

With Aleister, it's not so bad, because he's basically going to be a brand new character with my switching his classes entirely. Hamza however, isn't getting any sort of build change, thus I am concerned about his final stats being off, and having to rework things.

Whatever we decide, I might not bother redoing his ability scores. His stats are 132pts(via Sebs method), but some of that is from his template, and various other stat boosts.

I will say this however, Ten said above that my suggestion would 'literally gimp my character' yet also claims that if we did it my way, it would end up being 110 pts vs the 108 Seb suggests. Which, doesn't sound like a gimping to me.

Dark Archive

Monkeygod wrote:

Dark Sun used the above (1) 35pt. buy, (2) roll 2d6 + 6 as many times as you like, or (3) 5d6 drop the lowest 2 ability scores.

Rise is 50pt buy, while Numenera is a 40pt.

These methods are what would be "gimping" your character. None of them would result in 18s across the board.

If you subtract the stat boosts from templates, ABP, racials, level boosts, mythic tiers, and anything else that contributes, it seems very unlikely that your base stats surpass the 108pt base that is proposed.


Arc - Nightmare Dragon wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:

Dark Sun used the above (1) 35pt. buy, (2) roll 2d6 + 6 as many times as you like, or (3) 5d6 drop the lowest 2 ability scores.

Rise is 50pt buy, while Numenera is a 40pt.

These methods are what would be "gimping" your character. None of them would result in 18s across the board.

If you subtract the stat boosts from templates, ABP, racials, level boosts, mythic tiers, and anything else that contributes, it seems very unlikely that your base stats surpass the 108pt base that is proposed.

This is what I'm not understanding -- I think I'm giving you some more points over what you started with -- and Slyness is reaching the same mathematical calculation I am. I'm not clear what your reasoning how this is a disadvantage is.


Okay, so now ya'll are just ignoring the actual point I made, in favor of continuing to harass me over whether or not the 108 is actually a disadvantage or not.

I wrote up a decent sized post about my main concern(having to potentially rework Hamza), and neither of seemed to pay any attention to that.

Dark Archive

Monkeygod wrote:

Okay, so now ya'll are just ignoring the actual point I made, in favor of continuing to harass me over whether or not the 108 is actually a disadvantage or not.

I wrote up a decent sized post about my main concern(having to potentially rework Hamza), and neither of seemed to pay any attention to that.

If you are feeling harassed, then you reading things into the text that are not intended. Each person is trying to allay your concerns about not being able to reach the same stats. Everyone is trying to help.

This is what you wrote:
Monkeygod wrote:
Part of the objection is having to attempt to completely rebuild Hamza, and being unsure if I can end up with the same stats. Because if they are off too much, that means I need to actually recalculate his sheet.

I read that with emphasis on the second part, "being unsure if I can end up with the same stats". That is what people are addressing.

If your objection was the first part, "having to attempt to completely rebuild Hamza", then it is a misunderstanding, though I think "complete rebuild" is an exaggeration.


Yes they interpreted my statement correctly. The gimping was aimed at your idea that the roll methods or 35 points could beat 108.

The part about 50/110 was just making a point that after all your complaint of 108 not being good enough you asked for 110.


Somehow we seem to have got into an argument where I think there's a miscommunication -- my understanding is that none of the characters in any of these games started out with the equivalent of straight 18s before applying any other modifiers from race, templates, levels, feats, etc.

I am proposing to give that as the base line, giving everyone maybe 20 points or so more on their ability scores. So, for instance, if Hamza started out with 18, 18, 15, 16, 13, 12. He now has 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18 before applying any other modifiers from race, level, class, etc. He could also choose to have 30, 6, 18, 18, 18, 18 or 30 30 6 6 18 18 or 40 40 6 6 8 8, and so forth.

I'm not understanding how any set of attributes using other point buy methods or rolling that has been suggested could start with a higher array than 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18. Is the miscommunication that we're each assuming this is before or after other modifications for race, template etc.?


Posted this over in the Rise discussion, but since this seems to be ground zero for the unification of rules talk, I'm posting it here as well:

In regards to wealth:

My suggestion, for all games, is for PCs to be considered CR 10 or maybe even 12, and then double that.

I know Hamza and the other Dark Sun PCs are roughly CR 10 based on the bench-pressing doc atm. So maybe CR 12 or so with all these new additions.

I suppose we could go with WBL of CR 13 to 'be on the safe side', which doubled would be 280,000.

Otherwise, if we go with the WBL of CR 12, it would be 216,000.

*******

Which of those works best for you Seb? This is would be in addition to my prior suggestion of one legendary item for each PC as well.


that seems fine to me


Sebecloki wrote:
that seems fine to me

Which of the 3 options? CR 10, CR 12, or CR 13 ? lol


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I suppose we could go with WBL of CR 13 to 'be on the safe side', which doubled would be 280,000.


How many mythic feats do we get?

For Dark Sun, we got:

Level Feats
1 2
1 2

3 1

Total = 4 or 5

But, DS didn't originally have gestalted mythic tiers, so I'm unsure if that's still accurate or not.


Depends on your total class level.


Sebecloki wrote:
Depends on your total class level.

Right, but do we gain extra mythic feats now that all games are using gestalt mythic paths?

In Rise, we're currently base tier one. In Dark Sun, base tier 2(3?).

Just trying to figure out if there's bonus feats due to the gestalt paths.


Yes, each side of the gestalt has the same progression


Torment: Tides of Numenara is 75% off in GOG.com sale.


Seb,

Should I post any questions I have about my PC in this thread, or should I move such talk over to discussion??

Since you said we're going to delay applying the reworks to Dark Sun, and I guess Rise, I think I'll work on my PC for Numenera and possibly your Mongol game for the time being.


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People already changed their characters for rise, we'll delay Dark Sun though.


Sebecloki wrote:
People already changed their characters for rise, we'll delay Dark Sun though.

Alright, well Aleister is partially done as is, so I can begin working on other PCs.

Should I move over to the discussion thread for any questions I might have??


It doesn't really matter. Either is fine.

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