Redemption: Tides of Numenera

Game Master Sebecloki

I don't think underwater is going to end up being a big component

Are the sub abilities still in use? Those seem a bit confusing.

Also, is the 'one unique thing' from the big doc/house rules in effect? If so, can I possibly either take an epic feat from Immortal Accession or from the PF epic book?

Finally, are any of the various rules and systems from the Numenera books going to used?

Give me next week to recompile everything, there's still some confusion b/c of how many iterations of the rules we went through in the course of a 6 month recruitment. I think that will answer most questions.

Take your time, I'm considering using the Spheres of Power rules. As I have never delved into them before, it will take me some time to read through everything.

No special items, that was definitely removed. We ended up with a gestalt mythic level instead of a prestige class.

At this point honestly, with the idea these are going to be connected worlds, I feel I should just give you the rules I will eventually be using and you can join in whenever everyone else has had a chance to level up and update.

I'm basically imagining using the dark sun rules + gestalted archetypes + gestalted mythic paths. I also need to look through my own version of the wounds and vigor and hero point and healing surges and make finalized versions. I think I'm also adding in some version of armor as damage reduction.

Hmmm. Sounds interesting. Would the characters already active in this campaign need to be tweaked for the Dark Sun rules then?

Are you still accepting applications?

I'm planning on doing that gradually at moment, like first increasing feats, then the abp system and so forth.

I agree with monkeygod that we should try to mostly unify the systems. I'm going to lose track of the rules myself if they're different for every game.

I am also serious about the crossover idea. Looking over my Ninth World Guidebook this afternoon, I am imagining that an area of Vralk on the 9th world is coterminus with Athas/Khitus/Serital.

Are you still accepting applications?

Maybe we're working some stuff out right now. This is a group that's mostly the same between three different games and we're trying to work out a bunch of house rules.

For my long time players I'm going to try and post a set of revised house rules for our shared worlds next week that we can discuss. I'm was looking at several things I need to tweak to integrate the 3.5 and PF systems for DR I want to use. I'm also looking at an armor as temporary vigor house rule. I'll have details soon.

Understood. Pathfinder and Numenera are just two flavors that would probably taste great together. You also seem like my type of GM if what I have gathered from this thread is even remotely representative of your style.

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

I was reading my rulebook the other day for Numenera. Did you have anything specific in mind? The system seems to be based on resources pools. I think the hero points system I'm proposing is a similar concept. It sort of is like edges and effort. I'm open to other considerations.

Understood. Pathfinder and Numenera are just two flavors that would probably taste great together. You also seem like my type of GM if what I have gathered from this thread is even remotely representative of your style.

I don't want that to sound discouraging. I probably will be but I'm not ready for you to start rolling up something right now.

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

If you mean the pathfinder rules I'm using, I think I already commented on the dark sun game I'm going to import the dual archetypes gestalt and mythic gestalt. I have an armor system I've almost worked out that's going to tweak couple of things.

No worries, I understood that part. Just letting you know that I'll be here when/if you start recruiting again.

Monkeygod wrote:

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

I was reading my rulebook the other day for Numenera. Did you have anything specific in mind? The system seems to be based on resources pools. I think the hero points system I'm proposing is a similar concept. It sort of is like edges and effort. I'm open to other considerations.

I don't actually know the specific rules system, but when I checked out their site, I saw that the 2e books seem to have a few different ones. Unsure what they are exactly, but if you might possibly use them, I can look into getting the books.

The first and second edition are compatible. They changed the skill monkey class. The second edition has a lot of additional settlement design rules in the companion volume to the core rules. The second edition basically has two main books which are together about 800 to 900 pages. Some of that is stuff like setting fluff and bestiality entries.

The cypher system is sort of like dnd in that you have a profession that you get level based abilities from. The attributes like strength are resource pools you have to manage to do things. It's sort of like if you combined stamina pools for combat tricks and the strength attribute into a single statistic. You use this pool to manipulate rolls against a DC. It has intrusion mechanics that are like action points.

I'm not sure there's anything to take from that. PF already has resource pools like grit and stamina. Everyone gets stamina and action points in these house rules. I think numenera are pretty adequately represented by stuff from the Technology Guide.

Monkeygod wrote:

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

If you mean the pathfinder rules I'm using, I think I already commented on the dark sun game I'm going to import the dual archetypes gestalt and mythic gestalt. I have an armor system I've almost worked out that's going to tweak couple of things.

So, we won't lose the "extra" archetypes these characters have?

Sebecloki wrote:

Monkeygod wrote:

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

If you mean the pathfinder rules I'm using, I think I already commented on the dark sun game I'm going to import the dual archetypes gestalt and mythic gestalt. I have an armor system I've almost worked out that's going to tweak couple of things.

So, we won't lose the "extra" archetypes these characters have?

No we're only adding stuff, not taking anything away.

I increasingly have an idea that's developed over time that all these worlds are connected in some fashion. I want to open the opportunity for cross over references and maybe even some scenarios where characters from one hear about or even interact with those from another

The cypher system is sort of like dnd in that you have a profession that you get level based abilities from. The attributes like strength are resource pools you have to manage to do things. It's sort of like if you combined stamina pools for combat tricks and the strength attribute into a single statistic. You use this pool to manipulate rolls against a DC. It has intrusion mechanics that are like action points.

I'm not sure there's anything to take from that. PF already has resource pools like grit and stamina. Everyone gets stamina and action points in these house rules. I think numenera are pretty adequately represented by stuff from the Technology Guide.

there are action points here? what are the rules for those?

Sebecloki wrote:

Monkeygod wrote:

Hey Seb,

Have you given any more thought to using any of the Numenera specific rules for this game, or any of the others??

If you mean the pathfinder rules I'm using, I think I already commented on the dark sun game I'm going to import the dual archetypes gestalt and mythic gestalt. I have an armor system I've almost worked out that's going to tweak couple of things.

So, we won't lose the "extra" archetypes these characters have?

oh this game has more than regular archtypes?

Yes I they're in my house rules document I linked on the dark sun game. I need to update and edit it.

This game we came up with the idea of gestalting two archetypes.

This game we came up with the idea of gestalting two archetypes.

According to the doc, we get two archetypes per class(so four total as we're gestalt), but we also keep all the normal class features as well, right?

Yes

What I'm going to do in this thread is try to sort out the overriding rules for this cosmology.

We can talk about it and iron out any remaining questions.

Each setting is going to have a twist that is compatible with the others but also makes each distinctive.

The colored alignments are going to be unique to Numenera.

The magical schools I outlined for Athas are unique, as are wild talents, and the Athas characters will get higher health values.

linkHere's a link to my in progress house rules document. I've edited together rules for Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, Wounds and Vigor, Hero Points, and the rules for Healing Surges.

I'm combining stuff from 3.5 and Pathfinder into one system.

I'm just going to go ahead and keep cutting and pasting srd stuff into a document until I have my own informal corebook we can use as a reference.

Here are some relevant points:

-For Wounds and Vigor, I am maintaining the higher Wound total from PF (CON) x 2) instead of x 1 from 3.5. Vigor is calculated as per Vitality in 3.5 -- adding the Con bonus.

-I've been allowing calculations based on Cha instead of Con for health. I want to slightly modify this to add some additional qualities to characters who select this option. They are quasi undead/soulless, or something of that sort.

-I think one of the distinctive things for Athas is going to be some additional health. I might add 100 to one or both categories or double everything.

-Crits still multiply damage, don't go direct to wounds, as per 3.5, instead of the pathfinder variant, where they don't multiply damage and go straight to wounds.

-Temporary and lethal/nonlethal categories of hit points are converted into types of Vigor, instead of dispensing with those hit point categories -- I am doing this to avoid conflicts with class abilities, feats, and spells that mention temporary hit points or lethal/nonlethal damage

-For armor as DR, I'm maintaining the 3.5 system of having an AC instead of the defense score from Pathfinder. However, I'm changing it so you still calculate AC as normal -- the difference is just adding the DR value and the defense score for the opposed crit roll. In this way, this is just tacking on something instead of messing with all AC values. Here, the defense score is only used for an opposed check for critical hits. When an opponent hits you, they roll to confirm the crit, and you make an opposed check based on your defense score. If you succeed, you stop them, even if they confirm.

-For hero points, I basically racheted up the number you get based on 3.5 action points.

-There is a variant where you forego the hero points to get an extra feat at 1st level. I think I need to change this to a feat tree to make this a realistic option. I'll update later.

Some other things:

-I'm going to make spell points for both arcane and divine casters the base system b/c spheres runs on spell points, and that helps to largely unify the mechanics of the magic systems.

-The split between active and passive ability scores in Numenera is going to be an optional subsystem -- any character can decide to do this or leave their stats as normal.

That leaves us with the following build rules for the Lokifinder cosmology

-Gestalt
-Gestalt 2 archetypes (add those on top of the base class, instead of replacing features).
-Gestalt mythic.

-Feats as per a fighter getting 1 feat per level on both sides of both the base class and mythic gestalt.
-1 HOPF per base class level. 1 Mythic HOPF per mythic tier.

-All health rolls max.
-ABP as per 2 levels higher.
-Chopping Down the Xmas Tree.

-Armor as DR (my system)
-Wounds and Vigor (my system)
-Hero Points (my system)/exchange for feat tree
-Healing surges (my system).

Everyone gets stamina/combat tricks free
Everyone gets the skill unlock feats for all skills they possess (basically to make the scaling powers of skill unlock a part of the base system).

-All casters use spell points.

Give me comments, reactions -- I'm going to create a Lokifinder core book document and unify a build rules to copy to all these games.

Initial questions.

1. Could we get a table of contents for that document?

2. What's HOPF?

3. Spell points from PF or 3.5?

4. Is that two normal feats and two mythic feats per level?

1. Once I get the whole thing edited together I'll stick in a table of contents -- I'm going to have to spend a lot of time messing with headings to get it to work out right, so I don't want to do that until the final iteration.

2. Horifically Overrpowered Feats.

3. I didn't realize there was a difference, I will have to look at that.

4. As if a fighter who was getting 1 feat per level. So it mostly vacillates between 4 and 2.

This is the feat breakdown for Dark Sun:

Level Feats
1 4
2 4
3 2
4 4
5 2
6 4

Total = 20

I'm looking at the spellpoints system -- it's basically going to be the Pathfinder system, but with the variant from 3.5 where you can use your life force to power spells. Also, I may change the allocation per level.

Hey Seb,

Would it be okay if instead of a second mythic gestalted path, I take the Mythic Vampire template?

But, treating it more like mythic tiers, so that instead of getting the abilities based on my CR, I get them based on how many tiers we have?

Normally, with our CR being around 6(maybe a bit higher), I would be mythic rank 3+.

With my suggestion, I would only get the first tier of abilities. Also, since we also have normal mythic tiers, I wouldn't gain any of the mythic subtype abilities. Unless you wanted me too, lol, but I believe that's too much.

I just updated the page for this campaign -- ask me questions, I'm going to keep updating stuff.

The next thing I have to do is go through all the spellpoints values and update the charts for each class. Mostly its going to follow the PF system, but where the 3.5 value is higher, I'm going to adopt that.

I'm going to make a core rules document that doesn't include races, classes or spell lists or feats, but otherwise will try to be a comprehensive references document: it will include ability scores, combat rules, and other stuff. I'm combining elements of 3.5 and PF, so I think we really need our own reference document since otherwise I'm going to have lots of notes about what to use from two different srds. It will be better just to edit them together.

Hey Seb,

Would it be okay if instead of a second mythic gestalted path, I take the Mythic Vampire template?

But, treating it more like mythic tiers, so that instead of getting the abilities based on my CR, I get them based on how many tiers we have?

Normally, with our CR being around 6(maybe a bit higher), I would be mythic rank 3+.

With my suggestion, I would only get the first tier of abilities. Also, since we also have normal mythic tiers, I wouldn't gain any of the mythic subtype abilities. Unless you wanted me too, lol, but I believe that's too much.

I want to iron out the stuff I posted and resolve any remaining questions before I start adjudicating alternatives.

Simplifying the Armor as DR rules makes me very happy.

Simplifying the Armor as DR rules makes me very happy.

I'm trying to make some of these sub systems play better with the base system.

It's much easier to add something new to the existing chassis then have an alternative version of the same thing where you have to change all the values. That's why I'm making it so you just add the DR value and a defense score for crit opposed checks. That doesn't change the way combat works, just adds some additional steps. All you're doing is reducing some of the damage and then making an extra roll for crits, for example. Its easier to do monster stats that way too.

I think that adds some interesting crunch to combat mechanics but doesn't make it such a pain to figure out how AC effecting stuff interacts with the system, for example.

linkHere's a link to my in progress house rules document. I've edited together rules for Defense Bonus, Armor as DR, Wounds and Vigor, Hero Points, and the rules for Healing Surges.

I'm combining stuff from 3.5 and Pathfinder into one system.

I'm just going to go ahead and keep cutting and pasting srd stuff into a document until I have my own informal corebook we can use as a reference.

Here are some relevant points:

-For Wounds and Vigor, I am maintaining the higher Wound total from PF (CON) x 2) instead of x 1 from 3.5. Vigor is calculated as per Vitality in 3.5 -- adding the Con bonus.

-I've been allowing calculations based on Cha instead of Con for health. I want to slightly modify this to add some additional qualities to characters who select this option. They are quasi undead/soulless, or something of that sort.

-I think one of the distinctive things for Athas is going to be some additional health. I might add 100 to one or both categories or double everything.

-Crits still multiply damage, don't go direct to wounds, as per 3.5, instead of the pathfinder variant, where they don't multiply damage and go straight to wounds.

-Temporary and lethal/nonlethal categories of hit points are converted into types of Vigor, instead of dispensing with those hit point categories -- I am doing this to avoid conflicts with class abilities, feats, and spells that mention temporary hit points or lethal/nonlethal damage

-For armor as DR, I'm maintaining the 3.5 system of having an AC instead of the defense score from Pathfinder. However, I'm changing it so you still calculate AC as normal -- the difference is just adding the DR value and the defense score for the opposed crit roll. In this way, this is just tacking on something instead of messing with all AC values. Here, the defense score is only used for an opposed check for critical hits. When an opponent hits you, they roll to confirm the crit,...

Moved all this stuff to the campaign page and added other stuff. Please look at it and ask me questions.

We also need to make some firm rules about the use of templates for all these games. What are we doing for Dark Sun now?

Any questions, comments, concerns on what I've posted so far?

I think most of this is fine, don't see any issues.

As for Dark Sun, I believe most of us have templates already. I know Hamza and Amunet have em. I don't think we need more, at least not arbitrarily. If we gain another, it should be via story. Unless you really think we should have an extra template.

Also, while looking over the rules in the campaign thread for this game, I noticed there's no section about mythic rules. I thought this game was tier 1 mythic?

We should really come up with some sort of wealth system for these games, or at least a cap. Easiest would be don't spend above our WBL, but I'm not sure if it should be less due the variant rules we're using or more considering we're overly exceptional PCs. We do need something however, if for no other reason than to put a limit on our gear.

Look at the campaign info page -- I have updated it -- it should have mythic stuff too.

Okay, yeah, I see that now.

Thoughts on my other comments??

I need to pick some wealth amount, I agree, I'm not sure yet. I also think we need a hard rule about templates.

For Dark Sun(and I'm guessing Numenera as well, since it's about the same power level), we're about CR 10, based on the bench-pressing doc.

WBL for 10 is 62,000. Chopping down the Xmas tree suggests 1/5th, which I believe is 15,500. ABP says half, which would be 31,000(of the original 62k).

Unsure if you wanna add those reductions together or not.

However, as I said above, allowing us more WBL due our being exceptional PCs would not actually be a bad idea. Thanks to the two variants we're using, items(even weapons and armor) can be more unique and interesting. The fact that many our PCs come from luminous backgrounds makes this more of a possibility.

One suggestion, regardless of what we settle on for wealth, would be to allow each PC(in all games) to gain a Legendary Item that grows based on our tiers as if we took the universal path ability per tier we possess. Meaning, for Dark Sun, they would have 2 or 3 abilities, while for Numenera and Rise, they would have 1 ability. Should we gain more tiers, our item would grow with us.

*******

I'm unsure what you wanna do about templates. Numenera is +3 currently, Dark Sun I'm not sure if there was a limit, and Rise does not have templates atm.

If you have any suggestions or ideas you're thinking about, let us know and we can try and settle on something that makes sense.

I liked the idea for the legendary items, and combine that with the ghostwalk rules where you have to make up a story for it.

I was going to say double max for wealth using normal calculations. Is that enough to basically buy anything? That's what I want is basically a real value that will place no barriers on any desire.

What about +6 as a level for templates?

I liked the idea for the legendary items, and combine that with the ghostwalk rules where you have to make up a story for it.

I was going to say double max for wealth using normal calculations. Is that enough to basically buy anything? That's what I want is basically a real value that will place no barriers on any desire.

What about +6 as a level for templates?

Double wealth would be 125,000gp which should be fine. Additionally, how do you feel about whenever we 'level up' or otherwise gain an increase in power, we gain a virtual pool of gold = to the difference between the new WBL and our old WBLx2, which we could then spend on improvements to existing gear as if they were Intelligent Items, using the Magic Item Creation rules for anything not covered.

Basically, a form of unlocking our items' true potential as we level. There's already several different systems out there for leveling items but some aren't that great.

Ie, when next we level up, our normal WBL would be 82,000. The difference between that and what we currently have is 20,000, which we would then double to 40,000 to spend on powering up our items.

******

As far as templates, +6 is a lot, but if you limit each possible template to +3(ie, no templates that are over +4) that should be okay.

They should also make sense for the character and new templates for existing PCs should be gained through some sort of in game event, as opposed to just suddenly slapped on for a power increase.

Also, if a particular player does not feel like using templates, you should offer something to offset that. Either extra levels, mythic tiers or a combination of the two.

Sebecloki wrote:

I liked the idea for the legendary items, and combine that with the ghostwalk rules where you have to make up a story for it.

I was going to say double max for wealth using normal calculations. Is that enough to basically buy anything? That's what I want is basically a real value that will place no barriers on any desire.

What about +6 as a level for templates?

Double wealth would be 125,000gp which should be fine. Additionally, how do you feel about whenever we 'level up' or otherwise gain an increase in power, we gain a virtual pool of gold = to the difference between the new WBL and our old WBLx2, which we could then spend on improvements to existing gear as if they were Intelligent Items, using the Magic Item Creation rules for anything not covered.

Basically, a form of unlocking our items' true potential as we level. There's already several different systems out there for leveling items but some aren't that great.

Ie, when next we level up, our normal WBL would be 82,000. The difference between that and what we currently have is 20,000, which we would then double to 40,000 to spend on powering up our items.

******

As far as templates, +6 is a lot, but if you limit each possible template to +3(ie, no templates that are over +4) that should be okay.

They should also make sense for the character and new templates for existing PCs should be gained through some sort of in game event, as opposed to just suddenly slapped on for a power increase.

Also, if a particular player does not feel like using templates, you should offer something to offset that. Either extra levels, mythic tiers or a combination of the two.

I like all these ideas. I'll work it into the summary when I have a chance tomorrow or Monday.

After having a look over the rules list, I see plenty that I like. More intuitive AC/Defense/DR, fewer magic items, etc.

A few more questions:

1. How will the Numenera characters handle wealth? The lack of any equipment whatsoever has its issues. I'm all for reducing the number of magic items overall though and *delighted* to use systems like automatic bonus progression.

2. Will the extra feats, optional HOPF, "Chopping Down the Christmas Tree", Elephant in the Room changes, and extra mythic tiers come into effect for existing characters in the current fight, or sometime after?

1. I'm going to have something happen soon where you'll get equipment to the level we're discussing in this thread.

2. I was thinking of updating sometime afterwards -- we're still discussing a few details here.