You guys are hilarious having this discussion, here. By all means, fell free, but it's pretty funny. :D
I'm sure its funny...but yeah I'm quite finicky about getting things done right. Twitchy kitties, you know.
You're cool. :D
Wow, good ending, and a nice intro.
TL, there were a lot of things that you changed or you revamped, do you have any interest in sharing any more of the story, or background or things that you changed? I'm intrigued with how Yeye got to the dimension, if she really was part of the elves, what was Erevel's part in all of this?
Um, is it stuff you could copy and paste or would you have to type it all out?
1) Thanks! I'm glad you liked it!
2) I don't mind at all, but, uh, not tonight.
3) It'll have to be typed. I don't even have all of my original notes, so...
When you've got it typed I would like to read it. If no one else is interested or if it's a ton of documents I can PM you an e-mail to send it to me.
Okay, so, first things first, I don't have everything that I've changed or tweaked in the background.
That said, this was something of an intentional experiment as a GM. I tend to vastly prefer the more "stable" background elements - i.e. things that function from the beginning and flow forward. But in this case I intentionally created a world that had... issues, with time and what is and is not real. This allowed me to (semi- ... or at least quasi-) seamlessly add "retcons" while still having an internally-coherent narrative. Some retcons, however... had me retconning this element, so... not quite as perfect as it seems. XD
There are several background decisions I'd made from the beginning, that I've dropped hints at throughout that either none of you picked up on, or, if you did, you either ignored or didn't investigate or interpreted it in a different way. I'm still not sure I'm ready to share those, as, to some extent, that's part of my retconning. Hints about the story, history, or nature of pretty much everything in this game. Some hints were intentionally obtuse, while some were weaker than intended - so, in retrospect, it doesn't seem like it should have been a surprise, even though it was, at the time.
On the other hand, there were quite a few elements that were surprising and had me scrambling.
For example, as a GM, I'd tried to strongly hint that there was a "trick" to getting to the "roof" of the tower - a manner of interfacing with it that would let you specificy "roof" to air elementals who didn't understand that. I failed. Instead, it was taken as, "Here is a door, we will enter it." When I tried to discourage that particular course of action, even intervening to enable you to stay out... it didn't work. And so began the longest, by far, part of the adventure. Frankly, I'll admit: I didn't know how to not make this side-quest a TPK. And, while I'd kind of intended for everyone to die at some point, I'd hoped it was a more heroic end than "We jumped down a hole and died."
... also, I had to now make a series of potentially deadly adventures for you both.
And, as a GM, again, frankly I'll admit: it turned the game from tragedy to something far more hopeful. Those couple of levels and increased numbers of recruited NPCs meant that you could effectively "pay" the various costs associated with "activating" the tower, without entirely and instantly dying. Because you had NPCs, you guys actually became heroes instead of self-interested mercenaries. And with their help, you distracted and defeated armies that were supposed to be (and would have been) effectively unbeatable as they were nigh-infinite (comparatively).
Having Inarus die, thrice, in the narrative, was interesting from a GMing standpoint. The first, of course, was when he switched bodies. While the spirit lived, he put it well, "I've killed myself." (His corpse, by the way, was rather ingloriously and quickly devoured by centipedes, that were then eaten by evil waters, and exploded into magic; just for the record). The second was facing the demon-plant - Inarus, again, sacrificed himself, after a fashion, and it, again, helped him come out all the stronger. And finally, when he died a third time against the uberdragon of gluttonous air, I kind of had a good thing going, so offered him a "final out" as it were, by allowing him to "press start to continue" - I figure I'd done so for him twice already, and, when I'd offered something similar (with two reductions) to a certain other person, nothing had happened for quite some time, so it seemed like said offer was refused; thinking about it in-character, the next logical person to extend that offer to would be the other flying creature... who'd just died...
And so Inarus' narrative as a spirit dragon was born out of another's either not accepting (due to disinterest, or disagreement with GM-held presumptions) or forgetting to follow through with an idea. It made sense to me in-character, and out, and I went with it. It was, pretty strictly, a one-time offer, though.
Speaking of other players and their deaths, and GM-left-scrambling moments, Golan's death was... a mistake. Basically, the GM (that's me) made a combination of tactical and power-assessment errors that resulted in a rather stunningly ugly player-kill. Luke was justifiably annoyed, I think, by the whole thing. I did, of course, have a whole... thing... for what would happen to him, and how it could all work out, but over PMs he effectively declined the offer (super-fair). The offer, for story-reasons, remained open for a while, but it just never seemed to work out as either of us wanted. Unfortunate, really! ... but it worked out in other ways, so, that's neat.
Also unexpected, but not unappreciated, was Usawoti's strong response to Yephima! That was... excellent! Similarly, Inarus' hesitations, but ultimate embracing of choosing the Coven. This was a phenomenal character hook, that allowed me to easily allow the two of you to communicate (though, humorously, how much you communicated, exactly, was something that had to be communicated as well, and that was hard... XD), allowed for NPCs to both aid you and bide their time, and allowed for you to "pick a side" as it were, and kind of stick with it. What surprised me, of course, was that you took the "moral" course with the giants.
I'll level with you: both factions were evil. Suuuuuuuuuper evil. Except... the giants did, in fact, have families. And the possibility of morality (as they weren't demon plants). These were two elements of your earlier decision making that I hadn't taken into account until, I think, one of you mentioned something like that for making said decision. That got me thinking about them in an entirely different way. It also meant that, by the time Yephima showed up, she could be a (effective) "moralizing" influence on the coven (and her people - and vice-verse), have it make sense, and also support the heroes in their stated goals. Having Usawoti vaguely resemble a generic stone giant child felt right for a number of unrelated reasons (and let you have equipment even when you couldn't have your equipment), but, in retrospect, that was basically the best thing to do, as it immediately emotionally tied you to the giants in a positive way, and allowed them to respond favorably to the both of you, as well. Basically, the giants (and hags) became less evil as-played by me, because you chose the giants and made good in-character arguments about why the giants were the less-evil faction.
Moving back to the tower: wow, what a mess I'd made as a GM getting there. As part of my "time is malleable" backstory, as a behind-the-scenes, I'd made a self-retconning prophecy known to be "true" by the two different factions, which, each time reality and history was rewritten (which was a thing that happened), the prophecy remained true. And that prophecy mentioned heroes, something about a dragon and his elephant son and a, "rain and/or reign <translation unclear> of death" involving them, and then noted "they" <unclear> would make "their" way to and into the tower toward the top, while facing great dangers. (Also "great danger and much death" lurked in the tunnels; they must past beyond, despite death.) Also, also, "Something, something, mutter, mutter, Ereval." (It's been a while.)
This prophecy was something I'd hung my hat on - a line in the sand I wouldn't cross, the proud nail never brought low, the one thing I wouldn't bend on. Because it was the one thing that was supposed to be constant - the gist, of course, being that the heroes arrive, fight the dragon knight and steed of lest, and prove who they are, and then go to the tower for a good time. The heroes were supposed to die (it was left ambiguous), and then have their spirits/memories/etc. "pass beyond" and voila, you end up with new characters down the road with lingering memories.
Funny thing is, I'd kind of immediately forgotten it. And when I did remember it, everything had kind of worked out around this. Inarus was now the very dragon knight, so Usawoti (viewed by the populous) must, himself, be the son of said knight. So, sure, that was how the prophecy was fulfilled, right? Right.
... then you guys jump into the tunnels. The one place I'd said was "certain death" - which, to be fair, I did mostly for in-character reasons, so that the various creatures like the demon plants didn't choke the interior of the tower with their minions everywhere... at least not yet - they wanted to control the tower, first.
So what to do? Tunnels that mean certain death, a very inglorious TPK, and break for new game, plus, "No, really, you guys, I'm a good GM, I swear!"...? This was made even harder after my critical blunder with Luke and Swiftwing. I realized that I'd suggested the tunnels had lots of life in them, and, in fact, had ever-so-vaguely "mapped" the tunnels (no real maps, nor even "real"definition or order to them, but the basic ideas and how they fit together), and made a point of displaying how "life" could exist. And I realized that the joke I'd made that you guys wouldn't ever get (well... now you would) that the "highest" tunnels were where creatures got "high" from air-based intoxicants was actually one of the more survivable tunnels around.
So I set about making a series of tunnels filled to the brim with every elemental creature I could justifiably (to myself) put in, that would both be a point of great danger, allow you both to show off your character's relative power and ability, and create an interesting and complex exploration narrative.
... and also wouldn't go where you wanted, because the tunnels were literally an endless (very complex) "loop" (that is, if you went up enough floors, you'd be at the "bottom" again - as there was no "bottom" or "top" relative to themselves). I didn't bother planning a particular way out, as death in these tunnels in glorious heroism would actually make it easier for your souls to be processed and sent beyond. Then you guys asked for information, and I put my thinking cap on, and thought about the problem as a non-GM. I came up with solutions with you, and proposed them, and you both summarily rejected them all for reasons I'm still not entirely sure of... but that's fine, as it all worked out!
And so, you found another way out, and you managed to keep things running, and we got to the story the way that we did, and here we are now.
As to the ending, I'd had a large number of ideas for how it would end - usually some sort of tragic-heroic death, though sometimes a somber, solitary life of sorrow and loneliness, and once Usawoti and Iya-iya had the potential to end up together - a kind of "second choice of mate, via shared survivor syndrome"-thing... but ultimately none of those were really satisfying.
Just before Christmas break, I'd also decided to have an interactive info dump with branching dialogue trees, based on what Usawoti chose, and just a metric ton of possibilities. I also put, what I thought, were clever limits on the amount of info "dumped" as there was a system of "QP" ("question points") that you could posit, and any given answer would take so-many QP - that represented how long and involved a question was. That way, there'd be lingering mysteries (maybe), but it could be an organic conversation with lots of cool in-character revelations immediately before she died a kind of death you can't get better from.
... and then, frankly, I just couldn't do it. I looked at everything the two of you had accomplished, everything you'd been at, and everything that you were... and that you had made her into. And I realized that she wouldn't do that to you. "Here's a bunch of stuff to break your soul and spirit, and also I die and you don't get to be with me, ssssooooooooorrrrrrrrrrryyyyyyyyyyyy-!" That especially didn't sit well with me, as she wasn't a passive damsel, and you'd encouraged her to make her own way and her own decisions - you pointed out that willingness to die is fine and all, but sometimes its more important for the people she cares about to find a way to live. That had struck a cord with her. And, as established, she was canny, clever, and willful enough to strike impossible bargains, and navigate her way through deadly agreements, and even ameliorate the wickedness of a coven devoted to nothing beyond their own evil designs. Also Erevel. (Oh, man, Erevel.)
So I couldn't do that. I couldn't do it to you, I couldn't do it to Inarus, and I couldn't do it to either player - especially not in the midst of an emotional moment, throwing a gut-punch, and an, "Also you don't get to control your character or make decisions, nyah!" slap that would kind of come with said revelations. It felt rude to you guys, the players, and I didn't like the way it removed player agency: I didn't like it as a GM, and I didn't like it as a fellow player. I may have made the story, but the way it worked itself out made it feel... wrong to follow through. So I changed it, and probably won't go into detail beyond this - it might still come up, later, but we'll have to see. Hopefully, by that point, time and distance will have left player agency a thing. If I don't immediately forget it, again, that is. XD
And then there was Erevel.
DAG. GUM. EREVAL.
First: no, I never really learned how to sepll ish amne. Dyslexic, you know. So, that was a thing.
Second: I honestly intended for you guys not to like him. He was supposed to be an unpleasant prickly grouse... that you needed. At some point, in the vague, distant past, I had plans for him. Oh, such plans. ... ... ... I have no idea what most of them were, now.
Third: Totally unrelated, but LOL, the mouse. Whatever happened to that little guy, anyway?
()
Fourth: The plans that I still recall that I have for him... never came up. Each time I would have utilized him as an NPC or other device, it really didn't fit the situation you currently found yourself in. It got to the point that it was kind of a private joke of mine to myself. "Oh, hey, I wonder if Ereval will show up now: nah!" (I didn't say it was a funny private joke. But it... it made sense in context. Stop judging meeeeeeeeeee~!)
Fifth: See, you might not have cared about him, but he had several unique pieces of knowledge. These included, but were not limited to:
- methods to raise the dead a limited number of times (never came up until he was out of reach or the game was quit; admittedly, as it was reincarnate might not have been a popular option, anyway)
- methods to cross the waters with a relative amount of safety
- methods to negotiate with any given faction (but when this came up, he was stuck waiting two islands away)
- methods to extract wealth from this misbegotten wretched world
Sixth: he never got to say, "Well, maybe you really are the heroes I've waited for this whole time."
Seven: because he's dead now. (SPOILER ALERT!)
Eight: eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeheheheheheheheeheh~!
Nine: I will let you know that Erevel was the single most honest person with the least interest in deceiving you that any of you have met the entire game.
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I might be able to come up with more later, but that's about what I've got for now. Any more specific questions?
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So I Inarus is Inarus will he have Inarus' memories or just subconscious motivations? Not that I care either way, just curious.
1) Sure! Probably be here. Some things might not be mentioned, yet, though, for quasi-potential-spoiler thingies. -Ish. I might be overly-cautious, here, as it's unlikely that things will work out the ways I think they might, but, hey, better safe than sorry. XD
2) The latter.
... unless Mort's super-interested in the former, in which case: still the latter. (... for now.) ;D
I would be interested to know if either of you are interested in eventually acquiring the "complete" memories or not?
While Inarus is definitely the reincarnated spirit of Inarus, the same is less certain of Navarre and Usawoti.
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Here is a door, we will enter it.
If your elevator only brings you up to the second highest floor, figures you'd curse at the manufacturer and start making your way to the top by the stairs at the second highest floor, no? And stopping adventurers from doing things they want to do generally doesn't go well without threats and big sticks. I would have stopped and listened, but my human is biased against plants. And I think (yeah I know funny statement coming from me - considering forcecaging Usawoti at the end), that everyone should have free will.
Again, the force cage - I would have released him once he made his choice.
TL - it is also unlikely that I will form close ties with any NPCs as even in RL I am a rather emotionally detached person. So I have no idea how to RP it out even.
In game I justified it as Inarus not letting anyone close because he knew his life was a dangerous one and didn't want to leave loose ends behind so to speak.
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One thing about bard spell list is that you don't have Feather fall/ ability to fy except for phantom steed, which is really rather squishy.
Ddoor doesn't help with falling damage either, you still take it.
I wasn't very sure if I could survive the fall(20d6),so decided to hijack another body. I chose to hijack the spirit, thinking that it was controlling the dragon against its will and I could have an agreement with the dragon.
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Speaking of other players and their deaths, and GM-left-scrambling moments, Golan's death was... a mistake. Basically, the GM (that's me) made a combination of tactical and power-assessment errors that resulted in a rather stunningly ugly player-kill. Luke was justifiably annoyed, I think, by the whole thing. I did, of course, have a whole... thing... for what would happen to him, and how it could all work out, but over PMs he effectively declined the offer (super-fair). The offer, for story-reasons, remained open for a while, but it just never seemed to work out as either of us wanted. Unfortunate, really! ... but it worked out in other ways, so, that's neat.
Golan is..Lawful (??) not sure of the other side of the player alignment scale yet. I’d peg it as neutral, but not 100% positive. The thing is that Golan, like I do – like everything cut out and laid on the table. I am not surprised he gets pissed off, and Luke…I think…is less easy going then I am I think when things are uncertain. And I’m already not a very easy going person to begin with. (Thou doth protest too much). I’m not surprised that he reacted the way he did.
Also unexpected, but not unappreciated, was Usawoti's strong response to Yephima! That was... excellent!
My human has always been a soapy sap. There are times I admire him for his depths of feelings, since it’s something I’ll probably never have.
Similarly, Inarus' hesitations, but ultimate embracing of choosing the Coven. This was a phenomenal character hook, that allowed me to easily allow the two of you to communicate (though, humorously, how much you communicated, exactly, was something that had to be communicated as well, and that was hard... XD), allowed for NPCs to both aid you and bide their time, and allowed for you to "pick a side" as it were, and kind of stick with it. What surprised me, of course, was that you took the "moral" course with the giants.
Inarus did not know anything about any of the factions, just knew he needed to get into the tower, and choosing a side means going to war with another. Going to war is never a good thing – do you slaughter everyone to the last man, woman and child? (or plant, figuratively speaking?) So by choosing one side over another, especially without knowing the full picture – how do you know you’ve done the right thing? Are you going to commit mass murder of both the guilty and the innocent? Unfortunately without siding with either of the factions, the tower was just not accessible…I did entertain some thoughts about echolocation to deal with deeper darkness, but trying to get through the elemental storms, even with evasion, is chancy business.
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Also unexpected, but not unappreciated, was Usawoti's strong response to Yephima! That was... excellent!My human has always been a soapy sap. There are times I admire him for his depths of feelings, since it’s something I’ll probably never have.
A soapy sap??? Wow, I'm not sure what to say. But I do appreciate you noting my good hygiene.
Ok, back to the description of the game:
Thanks TL, for the narrative. One of my favorite authors right now is Brandon Sanderson. Obviously some stuff more than others, but one of the things he did that I thought was great: He put a book on line, and then included the annotations explaining some of the writing process. So I was hoping for something similar at the end of this game. I was not disappointed.
I fully expected for Usawoti to be left alone with the Mephit somewhere.
Since Usawoti was a shaman instead of fighter I wanted to play him as something other than 'smash first ask questions later' character. Next time I play that character I will make sure he has 'sense motive' and some skill in 'diplomacy'.
I felt Everel was just depressed and despondent not evil or manipulative. For the coven I assumed they were evil and manipulative, but a better option than the plants (who oddly enough still became our allies) and that treating them with respect would be the best route to go.
I don't really want Navarre to have any of Usawoti's memories, I would be curious as to how much of Usawoti's story is lore, because now the giants and Shoanti are at war, right?
So some final questions for you:
As for the mouse, did it stay with Inarus or did it get transferred to Usawoti? Also any hint as to it's importance.
what was Everels relationship with the plants and the giants? Had he really been stuck there all that time or did he move out of the dimension and back in?
Lastly, was Yeye ever really an elven princess?
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Having Inarus die, thrice, in the narrative, was interesting from a GMing standpoint. The first, of course, was when he switched bodies. While the spirit lived, he put it well, "I've killed myself." (His corpse, by the way, was rather ingloriously and quickly devoured by centipedes, that were then eaten by evil waters, and exploded into magic; just for the record). The second was facing the demon-plant - Inarus, again, sacrificed himself, after a fashion, and it, again, helped him come out all the stronger. And finally, when he died a third time against the uberdragon of gluttonous air, I kind of had a good thing going, so offered him a "final out" as it were, by allowing him to "press start to continue" - I figure I'd done so for him twice already, and, when I'd offered something similar (with two reductions) to a certain other person, nothing had happened for quite some time, so it seemed like said offer was refused; thinking about it in-character, the next logical person to extend that offer to would be the other flying creature... who'd just died...
You have no idea how trying it was to be locked way from the weave. (aka Magic). Basically utter spell immunity means you’re a walking timebomb, since other then natural regeneration there is no way to heal yourself. You know you’re dying, by inches. So I figured, that spell immunity thing was really getting on my nerves. Can’t heal, can’t buff.. can’t…Oh g~# d%!nit. Must as well get some use of this whole thing right? *Devil-may-care grin appears* Lets detonate an Atom bomb, since technically being immune to spells…means that the world can go up in flames and I’ll just sit in the centre, since each of the spell effects said spell resistance: Yes. (Resistances and immunities apply) And if it takes me out along with the creature – well – I am already dead.
I didn’t care very much for the passageways because there were no clear goals…it was as if we were just wandering aimlessly. I guess a large part of me is very goal orientated. I don’t mind knowing that if you go to A – B – C – D – there is always an eventual purpose at the end. Which is why things got a little heated up when Usawoti was suggesting we try another route. By then I was pretty pissed off with all that wandering…
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Robert, I get embarrassed by any public display of affection or show of feelings(other then irritation/anger). I have to keep that image up, you know.
Odd, I don't think I get embarrassed by any type of 'public display.' Too many years playing the clown and vying for attention...
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@Tacticslion's assessment:
Well, when I was invited to join the game, I assumed that it would be with someone who was more like Mort and Robert; your (very different) play style somewhat blindsided me.
Generally, my response when that happens is to assume the worst (you had, after all, indicated that we would (inevitably) be dying at some point), and I decided that I would prefer to go out on my own terms, rather than being a tasty live meat snack for a carnivorous plant :-P
With the benefit of hindsight (and having seen more of this thread), I can see that that would not have been the *entire* story, but I did not know that at the time.
Basically, I needed to 're-calibrate' my GM expectations to something a *lot* more... free-form/anarchic.
That's not a criticism; just an observation. If I knew then what I knew now, my reaction would probably have been quite different ;-)
@Mort's discussion of intestines needing to be on the inside:
Clearly, you are in the wrong line of work / not going to the right parties ;-)
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Could I cut people up for fun? Push comes to shove, probably yes. As in emotionally yes. I mean intestines.. I've held animal intestines and innards in my paws. Cats gotta eat, ye know. So human would just be a difference in scale.
So when it comes to gore and blood I would say I have a pretty high threshold for it.
I'm not sure I want to know what parties involve intestines, I'm pretty sure they're not legal...
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Well, I'd like to think you would only be doing it on corpses... carving up live people for fun seems a tad sociopathic ;-)
Situations that involve intestines (and *not* being a horror movie slasher/villain...):
1) Abdominal surgery
2) Autopsies
3) Abattoirs
4) Certain types of cuisine
5) Off beat Halloween parties
...and that is just off the top of my head (For the record, I have only done #1 and #2).
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You know I always wondered when all the cheese I studied would drive me crazy ;)
I lock it away to preserve my sanity.
1)Never studied medicine.
2)I don't know how to conduct one.
3)Been there, done that, in the kitchen.
(Probably why my threshold is that high. The first few times you're a little squeamish, then you become innured to it)
4)I understand, just look at what I was eating above.
5)Examples please?
Oooh Luke's a RL alchemist! Clerics are tied to deities so I would not presume.
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Well, here are a couple of pictures from relevant parties (note, not *real* intestines):
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Also, I thought you already knew what I did for a living ;-)
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First one they're wasting good innards. Do you know how many plates of kway chap you could make if you braised those intestines?
A criminal waste let me tell you.
The gall bladder - that yellowish green thing, do whatever you want with it. It's bitter as fk and yucky.
The second picture it's just sausages arranged like intestines. Nothing to see.
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Well, what do you expect from (most) Westerners? ;-)
Personally, I quite like black pudding, and I have tried haggis (although I grant that many consider both to be an acquired taste).
Bizarrely, what I can't stand is a cheese platter (although cheese cooked into a meal is another matter entirely).
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I miss my pig blood curd =(
It got banned for health and hygiene reasons here =(
I expect Westerners to be more boisterous and outgoing then quiet, reserved Asians. Also squeamish about what they eat ;)
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As long as you don't view people in the street (and possible people's pets) that way, you are probably fine ;-)
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The problem is I view every animal, including people's pets that way=(
Well, except the small ones because once you're done stripping the fur, there's not much meat on them.
I've just not acted out my desires. Because I'm lawful, duh.
Maybe I need to see a shrink.
Here is a door, we will enter it.
If your elevator only brings you up to the second highest floor, figures you'd curse at the manufacturer and start making your way to the top by the stairs at the second highest floor, no?
Ah, if only insane metamages aching for power beyond the gods thought so... reasonably... (or wanted people to actually get up their tower).
XD
And stopping adventurers from doing things they want to do generally doesn't go well without threats and big sticks. I would have stopped and listened, but my human is biased against plants. And I think (yeah I know funny statement coming from me - considering forcecaging Usawoti at the end), that everyone should have free will.
This is super-fair. Mostly, it left me scrambling because, as a GM, ironically, I wasn't flexible enough - or at least not in the right areas.
It's a case of me trying and failing to clarify, "Here are the rails." with players (unintentionally) going, "What's way, way, wwaaaayyyyyyy over there where no rails go? Let's find out!"
I was left going, "But... they were nice, short rails..."
None of this is to say you were wrong, as players. Point in fact, as Luke notes, in retrospect, the logic is plainly laid out. But there is a very different experiences - the "here and now" and the "looking back" give two very different perspectives.
And my point was never to say any of you did wrong - rather, just to explain my thought process, as best as I could recall, as it was at the time.
@Tacticslion's assessment:
Well, when I was invited to join the game, I assumed that it would be with someone who was more like Mort and Robert; your (very different) play style somewhat blindsided me.
Generally, my response when that happens is to assume the worst (you had, after all, indicated that we would (inevitably) be dying at some point), and I decided that I would prefer to go out on my own terms, rather than being a tasty live meat snack for a carnivorous plant :-P
With the benefit of hindsight (and having seen more of this thread), I can see that that would not have been the *entire* story, but I did not know that at the time.
Basically, I needed to 're-calibrate' my GM expectations to something a *lot* more... free-form/anarchic.
That's not a criticism; just an observation. If I knew then what I knew now, my reaction would probably have been quite different ;-)
That's super-fair.
It's one of the reasons I ran this at all - that way, at least, we could get to know each other.
Basically, though, I made a narrative and combat assessment mistake. I took the (very awesome) high Perception skill as an assessment of general durability and combat strength (which was exceptionally high, nonetheless), and simply over-estimated what was there. That, and, of course, a clash of expectations! Alas!
I will say, that, aside from Ereval's thing, humorously, the fact that Inarus kept coming back to life was... not something I could have originally predicted. Each instance was, more or less, a unique moment that wasn't entirely precedented in previous events or even my plans. The first time was the result of a wild magic. The second the result of a wish gone awry (albeit this was more in control of both Inarus and myself). And the final was the granting of a unique one-time offer of a singular thing... to a person other than originally intended (which, as a result, took a form different from how it was intended, too).
So it was more interesting timing rather than anything else.
Oh, and Robert, one thing that will never happen now: your new character won't have a unique SLA that Usawoti designed. Alas. (You really didn't want to do that spell thing at the time. But that lead to fun and interesting decisions, in-game!) XD
And now onto Robert's stuff!
... sorry.
Look, I'm slow, okay?!
(In my defense, I've got really terrible internet.)
Ok, back to the description of the game:
Thanks TL, for the narrative. One of my favorite authors right now is Brandon Sanderson. Obviously some stuff more than others, but one of the things he did that I thought was great: He put a book on line, and then included the annotations explaining some of the writing process. So I was hoping for something similar at the end of this game. I was not disappointed.
I'm glad you enjoyed! I know not everything I wrote up there is perfectly accurate - it's my current reconstruction of my brain-state at the time, so, you know. Caveats, salt, and taking with grains or blocks. XD
I fully expected for Usawoti to be left alone with the Mephit somewhere.
Actually, yeah, that's a better end that I'd originally foreseen. So, that's nice that we were both pleasantly surprised!
Since Usawoti was a shaman instead of fighter I wanted to play him as something other than 'smash first ask questions later' character. Next time I play that character I will make sure he has 'sense motive' and some skill in 'diplomacy'.
Hah! You never know what benefits you may unlock by making people like you!
I felt Everel was just depressed and despondent not evil or manipulative. For the coven I assumed they were evil and manipulative, but a better option than the plants (who oddly enough still became our allies) and that treating them with respect would be the best route to go.
Hee. Seems about right, doesn't it?
The plants thing was... funny, really. Quiet Gazer (who, as an aside, and for the record, was the actual specific one who's forces killed Golnan, and who confronted him, personally) had little idea that you were working for the coven when she first found you, and literally grasped at the chance to collect the prophesied "heroes" (who could, after all, be working for her side), in order to manipulate them into service for her own purposes. And then she got turned into an abyssal bottom feeder, and then turned inside out and exploded. Or, well, rather, turned into jewelry. Same thing, really.
And you did end up working with her (and her sisters), but it was a long road getting there.
Usawoti's natural 20 charisma check (I don't know if you rolled it, or I did in secret, as you weren't supposed to know it was a thing) meant that the jewelry... took a shine to you, in a personal way. Inarus' substantially-less-than-that meant it did not take to him so very well.
Hence the interactions in all future events.
That said, Usawoti never really understood his jewelry (at least not for a long time), while Inarus kept talking with her, and it forged an interesting and unique relationship.
I don't really want Navarre to have any of Usawoti's memories, I would be curious as to how much of Usawoti's story is lore, because now the giants and Shoanti are at war, right?
The story of Usawoti, like so many, is complex and difficult to decipher truth from fiction.
As far as Navarre knows, the man named Usawoti was an ancient great human shaman with a beautiful immortal wife of some kind who somehow successfully negotiated a peace that lasted for centuries between the two people - it is said he bested them in physical tests of might, mental tests of wit and skill, and spiritual tests of faith and power, forcing them to bow to his superior awesome. He had many, many adventures (some of which are probably even true!), brought impossible wealth and prosperity for his people, and expanded the lands and numbers of the hawk people far beyond other tribes.
Alas, those dirty, conniving, back-stabbing, untrustworthy giants, you know - can't trust 'em - and so now, of course, they're all making war with the People again. So sad that they can't even listen to their own heroes (as they often erroneously consider Usawoti a giant - something that clearly doesn't make sense, as his mound is way too small; stupid giants).
Navarre likely has some sort of connection to Usawoti beyond even normal for his peers.
Navarre may or may not know he is a descendant of Usawoti... but honestly, that's not saying much, anymore. Usawoti had a looooooooooooooot of kids (as his wife stayed young, beautiful, and vigorous until the end), and those produced a loooooooot of children, besides.
After six hundred years, the exact details of Usawoti have mostly faded to history myth and fable, and he is one of the several that have "ascended" to be among the Azghat - one of the exceptionally few that still have names known to the People.
So some final questions for you:
Wow, when you ask questions, you go straight for the (narrative) jugular!
Hah!
As for the mouse, did it stay with Inarus or did it get transferred to Usawoti? Also any hint as to it's importance.
Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeheheheheheheh.
>:D
what was Everels relationship with the plants and the giants? Had he really been stuck there all that time or did he move out of the dimension and back in?
"Well known" is about the only thing I'll say, at present. It may or may not come up, later.
... we shall see.
Lastly, was Yeye ever really an elven princess?
This is a deeply insightful question that I'm surprised was never asked in-game. It was one of two questions that I thought were left fairly clearly ready to be posed multiple times that may well have answered... a great amount of other questions.
I will say that the idea of "was <__________> ever really" is a great deal harder to answer, and applies to a much broader series of elements within this story than simply Yephima's status as an elven princess.
... but, yes, for our narrative purposes, she was, in fact, once "really" an "elven princess" for whatever that's worth (). Sort of. After a fashion.
... maybe.
... so: yes. Definitely! Probably. Maybe. Perhaps. Once. -ish. Kind of.
I will also say that this is unlikely the last you'll ever hear of this... series of events and... such... though you may never realize it, when it comes up.
After all, neither of you want the full memories to be found at some point, and that's fair - makes for an interesting narrative either way! So no: neither of you know of the details of this past life.
So... there's that!
Anything else?
The problem is I view every animal, including people's pets that way=(
Well, except the small ones because once you're done stripping the fur, there's not much meat on them.
That's not sociopathy.
I've just not acted out my desires. Because I'm lawful, duh.
That's possibly sociopathy.
Maybe I need to see a shrink.
Only if you think you're likely to do something that you'll regret.
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As for your answers to the questions: if you ever decide to give up being a stay-at-home dad, with those answers, you have a career in politics waiting for you...
Interestingly enough, accepting the fact that Yeye was the princess and that she didn't want to return, seemed to be the fastest way to get back home...
I guess I was wrong...
Again, the game was a blast! even with the hiatus and my near forgetting of what was going on in the game. The ending was well worth the wait.
So did I read somewhere that you like the D20'Modern' game system?
Indeed!
It's actually a really good system.
It has several critical flaws... but it's still good enough that I enjoyed it thoroughly, and, if you show me a system without significant flaws, I'll either hand you your pair of rose-colored glasses (or rather: I'll leave them on, pat-pat), or I'll invest in that puppy so fast it'll make your head spin, 'cause that's money in the bank.
Generally, for its flaws, like most d20 systems, you have to be ready to adjust your expectations - calibrating them, as the Alexandrian would say - because it seems like it should function in X sort of way, but it really, really doesn't. If you either adjust your expectations OR are ready to make small tweaks the system (not really the cuppa of at least 2/3s of the players in this game ;D), it's pretty sound.
For d20 systems, though, I'm generally a fan.
3rd Edition is a glorious mess. It's just... it's ludicrous. 3rd Edition Psionics is one of the most brilliant and creative pieces of bad designs I've ever seen. It's bold, beautiful, cleaver, creative, extremely insightful, and absolutely horrible.
Comparatively, 3.5 is a much more highly balanced and even prettier glorious mess. Meanwhile, 3.5 Psionics is the standard to which I hold all d20 games for balance and adaptability. Frankly, nothing else has done better.
Blue Rose is marvelous, even though the hp system is kiiiiiiiiiiiind of the worst thing ever (even though it's brilliant).
d20Modern is very similar to 3rd edition, only without the magic... unless you add back in FX, in which case magic is limited to Prestige, and limited in level (caps at 5th level, with anything "bigger" than that being relegated to rituals, as I recall). There are a lot of things going for it, but some of the shortcuts they take can be frustrating (if understandable), and it generally undermines itself as an internally consistent narrative device, as, when you have people needing to be 6th level just to barely be able to do things that ordinary people can do as well as now able to pull off the most ludicrous of stunts... things get muddled, quickly, as to what genre or design you're supposed to follow. I find it neither imitates real life or modern-super-heroism very well without some tweaks (or, as noted, really adjusting your expectations to the system).
Pathfinder is a marvelous system, it's just... bloated. And I don't mean, "Waaahhh, too many options, how dare they!" kind of bloated. I mean the system, from the outset, is bloated. You need to keep track of: hp, spells per day, limited per day pools of various individual class abilities, racial limited per day (if any), and anything else that's part of the system. Beyond that, it aims to fix several admitted issues with previous editions and perceived issues in this system, but I've found that, consistently, the fixes cause headaches and issues with Paizo's own previously-written work. Sometimes the fixes are simple and brilliant. Sometimes, though, whatever is fixed, just opens up a whole... rabbit hole of issues. And sometimes the "fixes" come with, "And it's always been that way, rubes." which, frankly, is a very frustrating thing to hear, especially if you're one of those who were sold on PF as being a continuation of 3.5 and said rulings run entirely counter to 3.5 and don't even allow some of Paizo's own published adventures to function as-written, and hinge on something small like two missing words. Basically, I love this system, is what I'm saying. XD
True20 is a really nifty system that I was not as enthralled with, despite the fact that it looks like it should have fixed my issues with Blue Rose... but wasn't really as interesting to me, for reasons I can't explain. Certainly seems to be well done.
Anyway, that's enough gushing for now, probably... XD
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Wow, that's a lot of ... gushing...I've only played 'pathfinder' I've read the rules to 3.5 and 'D20 Modern' Did you play them all that much or is your observations from comparing 'game functions' to actual potential situations?
Mostly played, but not as thoroughly as I would like in many instances.
For example, though it was extensive, and covered multiple levels, I've technically only played one "real" game of Blue Rose and it was technically a single-player game. But it was a lot of constant dice rolling. Everything else comes from reads and extrapolations.
My d20Modern experiences include one d20Past (which is d20Modern game), also single-player, and one d20Modern with several people, but it was very short. Everything else comes from dives and reads.
I've done a fair bit with 3rd and 3.5 and the psionics of both. I have had a pickle of a time selling people on the psionics, though: for various reasons, people tend to immediately assume it's badly broken, and instantly take any evidence, no matter how minor, that supports their view. It doesn't help that players who want broken game experiences tend to also leap toward the "broken" psionics (which, you know, aren't, comparatively), which simply reinforces the beliefs of others say.
And I really feel like I should clarify PF's "bloat"-thing I mentioned: I sincerely do not mind the huge proliferation of classes and options. This is, in fact, awesome. Similarly, the attempt at constant balance is quite commendable. I just don't happen to fall into the preferences of how they choose to do that. I happen to like my monks untouchable, you know? I also don't mind the nifty abilities granted to all sorts of creatures. Those are really cool! But when it doesn't also do something for me, in a narrative manner, it's a weak addition. And that's my problem. Needless complexity that doesn't actually help make the game better by providing an interesting narrative.
I couldn't really interest myself enough in the True20 to actually run a game that way.
I've spent more time actually playing PF and 3.X of all stripes than any other system d20 variant system.
As an aside, I've not mentioned Cortex+ and Heroes Kids, which are surprisingly similar. Cortex+ is especially solid, of the two. And, of the two, it's the one I'm more familiar with.
I semi-extensively played 4E (well, five campaigns of it, though we only finished one) and am in the middle of a 5E game, now.
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I know nothing about d20 modern. 5e is more rules lite...which I think you heard my rant in FATWL...if you want to freaking give me a tavern encounter with pirates...sure you gimme the pirate statblock, but you didn't tell me how MANY pirates...FFS. I don't like to you know, roll 2d6 to determine how many pirates I'm supposed to throw at the party.
I know people who came from 3.5 saying pathfinder is like seeing the world in monochrome. So many more options in 3.5 so they said...and freedom to cheese ;)
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hhhmmmm, obviously I'm the newby here, having only read and played a few games/systems. I generally don't take the time or energy to read/play new systems (I read the 'd20 modern' rules on 'wizards' web sight before I found pathfinder) I Always thought 'd20 modern' was a good system for worlds where magic wasn't as common or maybe powerful. I liked the fact that you were intended to create a very different character using the smorgasbord of classes and advanced classes.
While on the boards here I played Navarre in a Post apocalypse game based on these rules And I played Angus in a Cthulhu gmae ran by a GM I had played with when I first started playing.
Both games were difficult because the rules were so different.
I know nothing about d20 modern. 5e is more rules lite...which I think you heard my rant in FATWL...if you want to freaking give me a tavern encounter with pirates...sure you gimme the pirate statblock, but you didn't tell me how MANY pirates...FFS. I don't like to you know, roll 2d6 to determine how many pirates I'm supposed to throw at the party.
This I partially disagree with.
Having a variable amount isn't a bad thing.
It's over-reliance on that variable amount when it becomes a bad thing.
Similarly, having an over-reliance on specific numbers is a bad thing.
But having specific numbers isn't a bad thing.
I think it cuts both ways.
When you have an overly-balanced encounter ("You have seven pirates. You need to make it happen this way.") it isn't lawful - it's stagnant. These are very different. It presupposes the specific number of bodies around is what is required to either make a solid narrative or make a solid encounter - neither of these are true, though they certainly can be useful. In fact, it is easier to have specific numbers with the tag, "And this is what each of them do."
The major problem is when you have specific numbers and, as an author, provide no context to those numbers. Why are they at the bar? If the answer is, "It doesn't matter." it is (in my opinion) the wrong answer.
If there is no specific story built there, the specific number becomes meaningless, as it can be (and will be) "cheesed" by people building to overly-exacting specifications.
Now, to be clear: there is nothing wrong with people number-crunching to make an "ideal" battle-focused character. In fact, it can be (and often is!) great! I enjoy making characters along the same line.
The problem comes when there is a style-clash between those players and the GM. And the system with exact numbers doesn't presume (or even allow for) variance between play-styles.
Again, if this serves a purpose, that's fine. But it has to serve a purpose (other than just catering to a single style of play) - because if it does not, then it's a method of excluding people. And that's not cool.
On the other hand, by having a variable number, you have two different things that open up:
1) an option for variance by way of adjustment for variant play
2) an option for easier GMing via the unexpected
The first option is the most vague: as it's unclear when the suggestion is that dice are rolled, it is, by far, the weaker argument in favor of variant numbers of enemies. Yet it is an argument in its favor, just more obtuse. It needs to be clarified that it's also not a direct argument in favor of rolling dice, but rather an argument against strictly static numbers. In some ways, it's an argument against the idea that numbers are balance - and, while, to some extent they are, to another they are not. Numbers for balance works well enough, but only presupposing very explicit and limited tactics and builds. This creates ever-increasing specification and exacting limits that serve to limit what can or cannot be done.
Again: this isn't a bad thing, per se, but it can lead to unpleasant times when there is either a clash in GMing or a problem in expectation management - which seems like it would be easier, as clarifying, "Just by the book." makes things seem very reasonable. But it's not always that clear, because different people have different insights and understandings of even the same things, even when clearly spelled out.
It is in this manner that lawful neutral people going, "by the book" can, in fact, conflict on exactly the same set of criteria or same written work.
I know people who came from 3.5 saying pathfinder is like seeing the world in monochrome. So many more options in 3.5 so they said...and freedom to cheese ;)
... eh... no. I mean, "yes," and "no," at the same time.
PF has very bizarre limits attached that have no precedence and are actively opposed by not only previous editions but in PF's own work.
As an example, PF holds the strict "spells display" rule (though it's horrible at making this rule clear, relying on an exceedingly specific wording to make that happen). But that actually opposes the stuff in various adventures also published by Paizo. That is... problematic, at best. When people cast spells in published adventures without making displays, that... hurts.
This kind of "extremely strict wording" concept, actually also causes problems when applied to the rest of the game, too. Take the charm person spell. It has gone through a great many "clarifications" and causes an endless slew of arguments, but has been clarified that you can't force a person to do what they wouldn't, normally (unless you can). Compare to its use in-Paizo-published games where it turns a group of actively murderous and psychotic cannibals devoted to little other than their tribe and religion into loyal and dedicated bodyguards for a harpy. Multiple times. And you have problems.
And that's really where my problems have begun for many different iterations of the d20 systems and how they've been handled - where, in fact, many older systems have been handled. I dislike the Gygax school of GMing and publication - the idea that GMs hold mystical power against the consent of the players runs counter to how a good table really should be run.
I mean, don't get me wrong, a GM can hold power against the consent of the players... but (ironically?) that has to come with the consent of the players, and, unlike the Gygax's writings, that is not "the" correct way to play the game.
Frankly, I don't like that style of play - either as GM or as a player. And I'll admit: as a GM, within the balance of play that I prefer, I can't always think of a good way to "handle" something a player comes up with. Sometimes I have to set something aside until I think up a solution. The most famous (to me) example of this is in a home game I ran for players of mine, they literally and figuratively managed to free and charm a minor lord of hell, with Diplomacy, spells, and more Diplomacy, raw Charisma checks, and more, they literally overwhelmed him until he was fully devoted to being on their side. And that... took me back. He existed where he did for a reason, and that reason was, in the story, "he's temporarily weak - destroy him now, before he's used as a weapon to destroy the city!" The players, of course, found a different way, that used their unique build and skill talents, and made extremely good arguments (and, later, also managed to use alignment-changing magic that had, previously, been proven to work on inherently aligned creatures). All of this together meant that they'd out-thought me and, in three days time, in-game, they were about to have a virtually unstoppable force at their behest. The game was, for all intents and purposes, over. Well, I mean, unless I just had the bad guys somehow mystically divine where the guy was and assassinate him (an ever-decreasing likelihood) or just had him betray them anyway or just had him decide NOPE or some other heavy-handed intervention: and in any of those cases, it would make it an unpleasant "YOU CAN'T SUCCEED" railroad they hadn't signed up for. Eventually, of course, I figured out a solution. As a "reward" for a job well-done, Asmodeus sent a contract devil (as a sacrificial pawn - by this point, he knew they'd get the creature to turn) to give them a super-awesome absolutely-amazing extraplanar world. Also some minor and unwanted dukes of Hell and their realms into the players' collective control. And then severed said realms, attaching them to the "bottom" of the players' demiplane, and "accidentally" (totally intentionally) launching that combined demiplane filled with devils on top of another one - one controlled by the CR 39 "Lucifer" that can be found on d20pfsrd. Basically, he used them as proxies (and patsies) to wage war on someone and something that could, later, have come to threaten him, wiped a number of rebellious and/or otherwise problematic powerful devils out from the intrigues of his court, "rewarded" extremely clever mortals with an insane amount of power... and then kind of shut them out from most of it, as the lower levels became a kind of invasion-centered blood-bath they couldn't hope to survive. As a result, the rest of the game split into two: partial management of the infernal troops against the other infernal troops, and getting back to the mortal plot to save the city (while also working on expanding the whole "worship" angle one of them was working on, hoping to get nice celestial souls joining in to prevent the destruction of the city by rival fiendish forces).
... none of which would have been possible if I wasn't flexible. And, in fact, I wasn't flexible. I needed time off. I had to call a hiatus in the midst of that game to figure that out. We played two others before the solution came to me. And that remains the only published AP that we've successfully gone start to finish on (we're super-close with two others, though).
And this potential variance in expectations, hopes, and needs from gaming is one of the reasons I ran this game. When I was originally asked to GM for people, I was honored, but, considering we've never gamed together (and my PbPs tend not to... finish) I was extremely leery. I didn't want to commit to something - or have any of you commit to something - that was going to be an unpleasant experience from start to finish.
This is one reason why I'm not committing to playing anything past Book 1, at present - basically, it'll require a renegotiation of the "contract" for play, every book, from this point forward, because we need to take a break, look at the "state of the <virtual> table" and figure if we want to continue to go in the direction we're currently heading.
And that's an important thing, I think, in systems, and for published works or home brew. You need to know not only your current players and audience, but also if you're open to getting new people, how open you are, and how you present that openness... and if it's appealing or not.
I commend Paizo for being not only solidly open, but also for being consistent in their presentation. But I don't always like their design policy, reductionism, and unintuitive restrictions that don't run in accordance with the system as it's broadly published - or its unintuitive lack restriction, for that matter. I think that if they had a more clarified set of "this is our expectations" combined with "and here are clear variances that we understand" they could get away with "now here's why we do this" a bit more easily. But then again, I don't know. I just like things slightly differently than they do. And that's not wrong - just differences of preference.
And... ramble.
hhhmmmm, obviously I'm the newby here, having only read and played a few games/systems. I generally don't take the time or energy to read/play new systems (I read the 'd20 modern' rules on 'wizards' web sight before I found pathfinder) I Always thought 'd20 modern' was a good system for worlds where magic wasn't as common or maybe powerful. I liked the fact that you were intended to create a very different character using the smorgasbord of classes and advanced classes.
While on the boards here I played Navarre in a Post apocalypse game based on these rules And I played Angus in a Cthulhu gmae ran by a GM I had played with when I first started playing.
Both games were difficult because the rules were so different.
That can be a difficult thing!
But looking through a system can give a solid idea.
And I want to clarify: yes, I do, in fact, like the system. Having problems with it doesn't weaken it in my eyes - it's just a manner of clarification.
The apocalypse game sounds fun.
Outside of things setting up for other things, I am not usually into the idea of tragedies (and you all see how tragic this successfully worked out to be, so...), meaning I tend to pass on the Call of Cthulu.
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Ok, I read the post about how many pirates there are in the bar at one time.... Wow, the scary part is I think I actually understood most of the observations...
So in march of 16 I dropped out of all my games for about three months to try and focus on helping family (my father-in-law was sick.) I decided to come back slow and not get in too many games too fast.
The 'Cthulhu' game ended in March but the 'apocalypse game' was still going. I decided not to rejoin because of the difficulty of playing with unfamiliar rules.
Having said that it was a lot of fun. I liked the setting and the characters. The rules seemed 'light' but appeared to be created to tell a story together. I found it interesting how different classes encouraged people to interact with other players in different ways.
Since then, I have resisted joining games with different 'rule-sets' to try and keep my life simpler.
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I'm not one for flexibility, TL. Please give me a manual and tell me step by step what to do. I am absolutely lost when I have to make things up on the spot. I'm sorry, but that's the way I am.
How do I know if I over or under adjusted? How do I know if I am being fair to the players?
The players are there to get into the cellar, which contains the McGufffin.
Fun side: I told the players, before game start. Please try not to murderhobo everything. Because you guys are totally new to tabletops, by the time you finish counting your attack rolls, its gonna take a VERY long time, and this one is REALLY time sensitive.
BTW all true statements.
As a heads up, the reason I haven’t started our next gaming thread/whatever, yet, is because I have been quite busy. However, I look forward to hopefully getting it established sometime in the next week, or two. Sound good to any or all of you?
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Man... with only two fingers, he must have had quite a punishing upbringing...
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Heh.
Foolishly, I assumed the naming convention followed that of Logen "Nine-Fingers", and someone had been a wee bit o'er enthusiastic when it came to digital subtraction...
Just chilling out...
That’s what jackets are for!
(This has been your pun for the day five minutes.)