This is a non-Campaign to Test Stuff

Game Master Tacticslion

This is a Discussion thread. It is meant to Discuss... Stuff.

... that we're discussing. (Whoever "we" are.)

Yay!

Tentatively, I'll do Nature Warden/ Evangelist Cleric Gestalt, the class I'm taking class features from will be archaeologist bard.

I will take Feather domain, but will not receive an animal companion at level 4 - since I figure by Gestalt I've already had it early. And I don't want to clutter the board with all my fluffy animal friends - I think it's inconsiderate for the GM.

I am fine volunteering for map duty, since I have already played until book 3, how much more spoilers can I get? Lol..

How will the stackable divine casting from Nature warden be handled?

Also Archaeologist bard does not have any 11th level class feature - do I get the 10th level class feature or the 12th level class feature?

PS (I don't really mind which class feature I get). This is just for rules clarification.

I'm so glad it's a discussion thread and not a declaration thread,

I'm still trying to digest the info from the PM. Happy to do a one-off short module, I will figure out the 11th level character after I figure out the character for RotR.

speaking of the PM, all the caveat's are acceptable to me, I would be willing to help with the maps, but I've not GM'd or done maps myself.

I will respond to the P.S. requested posts a little later this evening. Still trying to wrap my brain around "Caveat number three" ;)

Tentatively, I'll do Nature Warden/ Evangelist Cleric Gestalt, the class I'm taking class features from will be archaeologist bard.

I will take Feather domain, but will not receive an animal companion at level 4 - since I figure by Gestalt I've already had it early. And I don't want to clutter the board with all my fluffy animal friends - I think it's inconsiderate for the GM.

I am fine volunteering for map duty, since I have already played until book 3, how much more spoilers can I get? Lol..

How will the stackable divine casting from Nature warden be handled?

Also Archaeologist bard does not have any 11th level class feature - do I get the 10th level class feature or the 12th level class feature?

PS (I don't really mind which class feature I get). This is just for rules clarification.

Actually, they do get a class feature at 11th!

They gain their +3 archaeologist's luck (which is usable 4+Cha mod per day).

I hope that satisfies!

Also, please remember, if interested, your temporary character for the pre-AP-adventure should be an 11th level archeologist bard.

For everyone: while a name and physical description is technically optional (as any "crossover" will be hazy at best), it's nice for the players and GM to have something to clarify which "you" we are facing and talking to, outside of, "Just a Mort's temporary character"... XD

... also, however vague, the events of this pre-AP-adventure will to some extent transfer over to your actual AP-borne characters!

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Hmmmm... somehow your name doesn't show... ah! Got it!

Put the name "Mort-" on the "Race" category rather than the "Full Name" category - that should allow it to show up when you post here.

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As far as hypothetically stacking caster levels, that's a good question! Glad we can chat about things first! Though I'd intended it in one way, I can see the other interpretation you've taken; I'll present both and allow it in one of the two different ways, and leave it up to the three of you to determine which you choose.

- Way 1: you get to stack functional CL (and the things derived from there), but you're limited to spells based on your actual gestalt level. What this means is that if you are a cleric 1/nature warden 1, you have level 1 spellcasting exactly as a cleric. Once you hit level two, becoming a cleric 2/nature warden 2 you have spellcasting like a level 2 cleric, but your functional CL is +1 higher. You may not have all the spells of a 3rd level cleric, but you have CL of 3rd, allowing you to cast spells that are more powerful than those of your level 2 cleric brethren!

- Way 2: the way I was actually intending was that, if you have multiple things that grant casting, you choose something for each. In this interpretation, if you are a cleric 1/nature warden 1, you once again have level 1 spellcasting exactly as a cleric. Once you hit level two, becoming a cleric 2/nature warden 2 you have spellcasting like a level 2 cleric, as well as 1st level spellcasting of a divine class other than cleric; so you have the level 1 casting of a druid, hunter, inquisitor, oracle, paladin, ranger, shaman, or warpriest (choose one). So if you chose "druid", you'd have the casting of a 2nd level cleric and a 1st level druid.

I'm so glad it's a discussion thread and not a declaration thread,

I'm still trying to digest the info from the PM. Happy to do a one-off short module, I will figure out the 11th level character after I figure out the character for RotR.

speaking of the PM, all the caveat's are acceptable to me, I would be willing to help with the maps, but I've not GM'd or done maps myself.

I will respond to the P.S. requested posts a little later this evening. Still trying to wrap my brain around "Caveat number three" ;)

Hahah! Yeah, that caveat is pretty big.

So here's how it runs:

I would like for no two of my players to have the same trait or class from the following links or list.

- Choose one of these. The specifics of your life are slightly looser than indicated by the wording, but the gist is there.
- Choose a 20-level class: it can be any you like from the Core classes, the Base classes (from the Advanced Player's Guide), the Alternate classes, the Hybrid classes, or Occult classes; or Psionics classes. In your case, Robert, I'm guessing it'll be a ranger with the falconer and trapfinder archetypes.
- Choose a Pathfinder prestige class. (Note, this is not necessarily identical to a Paizo prestige class, but if it's not one of the psionic ones, I'd like for you to talk to me, first).
- Gestalt the 20th level class you chose with the pathfinder class you chose.
- Choose a different 20th level class. You will gain three features from that class - one that is granted around 2nd level, one that is granted around 5th level, and one that is granted around 11th level. So, in your case, you might petition for the battle mauler familiar thingy, and some benefits of a battle master spirit. I don't know, you could look for something else, if you like.
- You will get a weird sharp thingy that sticks into your skin without any pain and lets you think in harmony with some others that have the same, a magic scar that doesn't hurt but lets your character boop into and out of existence periodically with a decent understanding of what's going on, and a weird hourglass thing that will let you completely change your character after the game starts; you get all of these as part of your backstory, even if your backstory is unique and not shared with the others. Additionally you'll have hunches (or something) that sometimes lets you know about good or bad ideas, and I'll eventually provide a method of coming back from death.
- I have attention deficit, dyslexia, and children.

Hope that helps!

The problem is technically I do not get archaeologist luck, since its a level 1 ability, so technically at level 11. I don't have stuff to upgrade.

Though magus archetypes that trade away spell recall, but not improved spell recall state that you get spell recall when you normal magi get improved spell recall.

I can be a tad anal.

I would choose way 2:druid progression. Druid has some nice animal companion buffs....and I will not use hunter to cheese my way into both druid and ranger spell lists.

I'm headed to class now, so building characters may take a while. I build my characters by hand, so I am not dependent on hero lab. I will keep the same name for the short run and Rotr.

The problem is technically I do not get archaeologist luck, since its a level 1 ability, so technically at level 11. I don't have stuff to upgrade.

I understand what you're saying, but I'm using the (probably awkward) verbiage to explicitly describe how I'm counting "what you get at <X> level" - if you get an upgrade of a key feature, I count it as getting that key feature at that time.

That said, if such a key feature isn't wanted or deters from your vision of your character... let me know!

EDIT: Gotta get used to selecting that alias again...

*begining manifestation*

Its actually very powerful for an archer (At a +3 to hit and damage bonus).But again the game may not even go till 11, so I suppose as we go along, I'll see if its OPed and needs toning down. We don't need to decide on it yet.

Its more of a game balance issue. And I'm walking a balloon sheep to give to me nephew tomorrow for christmas lol.
We're celebrating it early because on Christmas itself, I'll be busy at my friends wedding.

Alright then!

I think I can work with this - I now just have to go back to the drawing board, and do some crunching, since I honestly hadn't looked at prestige classes in any of my theory-crafting for this AP...

My main question is, since we are 'gestalting' with a prestige class (which, typically, is only 10 levels), what happens once we hit level 11? Do we pick a second prestige class?

Alright then!

I think I can work with this - I now just have to go back to the drawing board, and do some crunching, since I honestly hadn't looked at prestige classes in any of my theory-crafting for this AP...

(Psssssst. Eldritch Knight covers the extreme basics of both your suggested builds; you can choose what you want to emphasize/customize from there.)

((Feel free to ignore this suggestion. It's just an off-the-cuff that I cant think of that gets the most basic gist of the things you were looking for.))

Yep. Eldritch Knight was on my immediate 'short-list' - I am now culling the list of other prestige classes to see if there is anything else out there that could also work ;-)

Possibly student of war/ duelist. Int to AC is not all together bad.

Now I'm wondering if I should go vanilla cleric, use the features from second class to get bardic performance, but I don't like the idea of comimg from Waldi for trapfinder. Do you know how many thousand miles there are to Sandpoint? I'd be eaten by a Grue first!

Robert and I were talking. I thought I'd take over trap duties because I have higher dex, being essentially an archer.

Sincerely: do as you guys like.

This is your game and your crew to make as you go.

Whatever you do, do it together as a team, and have fun! :D

(Also remember, for this particular pre-AP exercise, your 11th level character does not need to be optimized in any degree. It's fine, one way or another.)

No worries, I expect we will get horribly murdered, since its hard to plan properly for two balanced teams ;)

Now I need to figure for how archaelogist performance works...and maybe some funky stuff. Level 11 character! I could get the full whip chain and whip everyone silly!

Forgot to ask, what WBL for that 1 shot?

Archeologist luck doesn't work like normal performance.

In fact, it's actually pretty simple, once you get it.

*Ahem*

Step one: remove all performances from the bard.

Step two: as a swift action, grant yourself a luck bonus on most d20 rolls (specifically attacks, saves, and skills) and weapon damage that lasts as long as you maintain it as a free action (grand total of 4+Cha mod per day).

The bonus starts out a +1 luck, and increases by +1 luck at 5th level and every six levels thereafter (so... 11th and 17th).

That's pretty much it (though you lose the bonus if you're not able to take even a free action).

Hope that helps!

Forgot to ask, what WBL for that 1 shot?

11th level.

OH! POOP!

I forgot something super important, you guys!

I wanted to ask: what are your opinions (as a group) on the Big Six items? Are they must-haves for mechanics or for the experience (not experience points) it brings?

Does it make your heart happy to get that hidden gem of a +1 weapon, or do you just feel like it's a bonus you have to have to stay relevant? Or both? Do you like trading old weapons for new, or would you prefer an (extremely simplistic) "upgrade" system?

EDIT: It occurs to me that, depending on your lingo, you may not be aware of what I mean when I say "Big 6" - regrettably it's not Big Hero 6 (SUCH AN AWESOME FILM), but instead certain items that grant specific generic +X bonuses:

- Weapon
- Armor
- [Cloak of] Resistance {save boost}
- Stat-enhancing Item (ex: Belt of Giant's Strength, Headband of Vast Int)
- [Ring of] Protection {deflection AC}
- [Amulet of] Natural Armor

Found here for the curious.

Very funny question. For my ROTR run, I was using a MW composite longbow with +2 rating even into book 3, and was using magic weapon and magic vestment to keep my weapons and armor relevant. Can't get worse then that, can it?

Either way I'm not too bothered =)

Awesome. Good to know...

*steeples fingers menacingly, and begins cackling...*

(Also, you don't have to worry about answering this question before purchasing your 1-shot equipment.)

EDIT: Addendum and proper alias choice. Dang it.

In terms of the 'big six', I would say that weapons/armor are important for martials, and primary stat boosters/cloaks of resistance are important for everyone.

Mileage will vary on the ring of protection, and the amulet of natural armor.

I am still curious about my question Re: ?second prestige class on hitting 11th level ;-)

OH! POOP!

I forgot something super important, you guys!

I wanted to ask: what are your opinions (as a group) on the Big Six items? Are they must-haves for mechanics or for the experience (not experience points) it brings?

Does it make your heart happy to get that hidden gem of a +1 weapon, or do you just feel like it's a bonus you have to have to stay relevant? Or both? Do you like trading old weapons for new, or would you prefer an (extremely simplistic) "upgrade" system?

EDIT: It occurs to me that, depending on your lingo, you may not be aware of what I mean when I say "Big 6" - regrettably it's not Big Hero 6 (SUCH AN AWESOME FILM), but instead certain items that grant specific generic +X bonuses:

Big Hero 6 maybe really good, instead of awesome, but it's ok if we disagree on the little things...

Ok, you would not believe how much the learning curve hurts my brain, I've never played an 11th level character, let alone put one together to represent the second class feature in a variant gestalt, so please be patient with me.

Back to the big 6, my understanding is that the AP, Modules and scenarios are built with the assumption that they would be used. Other than that I have no, none what so ever, attachments to them. I actually prefer some of the non-big six (is that a term) items. Would you consider using the Automatic Bonus Progression?

As a whole I like finding items related to the story, something that matters or something that was important to the character in the plot. That sort of thing. I like when magical items matter but that is not traditional 'pathfinder' where there should be literally magical shops in every town for characters to upgrade. Sorry Mort (she's a purist) that's why I like the ABP.

Ok, going to design my character characters now.

Any restrictions on races? I apologize if I missed that information.

The reason why I don't like ABP is often I'm posting from my phone and its a pain in the @rse to amend loot lists the mod gives :p

Copy paste makes me happy!

Also I find ABP restricts the amount of cash you have to buy immovable poles, tree feather tokens and all those fancy toys...that have nothing to do with the big six.

The reason why I don't like ABP is often I'm posting from my phone and its a pain in the @rse to amend loot lists the mod gives :p

Copy paste makes me happy!

Hey Mort, have you seen what TL did with Gestalt, I don't think he is the copy and paste type...

*pat* LN kitty and feeds it fish, so as it doesn't kill anyone's bird

Yeah, says the person who doesn't make 80% of his posts from phone, or for that matter, is insane enough try to run a game from phone.

*makes a whiny noise*

Don't mind me =)

*Eats the fish and does not nom anyone*

I have no objection to running a loot list - it is one of the things that I like to do for my games :-)

Realistically, I see us using what we can, liquidating what we can't, and crafting what we desire :-D

Regarding overall character build, I am currently leaning towards Elven Wizard(Conjuror)/Arcane Archer as my preferred option (taking bard spell progression from Arcane Archer).

As to which 'tertiary' class to pick, I will need to do some more digging.

Forgot to ask, any background skills?

*snickers* TL is going to have a lot of posts to catch up on when he gets back ;)

Fair warning, I can be quite chatty in town...

Forgot to ask, any background skills?

*snickers* TL is going to have a lot of posts to catch up on when he gets back ;)

Fair warning, I can be quite chatty in town...

Yes, actually - background skills are great! Please add them.

If Luke_Parry wants to run a lute Loot List, and Just a Mort wants to deal with maps, than I think we're all ready to go on those fronts.

(I can handle a solid amount of posts in reading. It's making full fledged responses that are iffier.)

That said... I shall now respond to...

Fair warning, I can be quite chatty in town...

First: great! I heart RP!

Second: are we interested interested in instituting a Flex Time-style mechanic? The gist of this mechanic is that the campaign can move forward without arbitrarily ending a conversation - the conversation itself may continue, even as the main thrust of the game goes forward. It would be handled as follows: the conversation in named in Discussion, (something like, "Mort and Jerkface McUgly Argue About Unethical Business Practices") and thereafter any further instances of that discussion would be placed in spoiler tags with other posts, until completed.

The benefit of such a thing is that if one player is more chatty or one is caught up in fun RP than their fellows, the game isn't ground to a halt - and the player may still continue to enjoy.

The danger is if said player (intentionally or otherwise) takes the conversation somewhere that would have repercussions on things that are happening in the future.

Ok, you would not believe how much the learning curve hurts my brain, I've never played an 11th level character, let alone put one together to represent the second class feature in a variant gestalt, so please be patient with me.

Sorry! I understand the questions. As far as you go: we're cool, sir. We're cool.

Please note, if we do finish RotR, we're going to be 15th level anyway.

I am still curious about my question Re: ?second prestige class on hitting 11th level ;-)

Hm. It's almost as if I'm avoiding the question for now... how strange. >:)

EDIT: heh.

Alright, in terms of my 'tertiary class' choice, I have narrowed it down to two basic options:

1) Inquisitor or Slayer (the former for the DPS, the latter for the amusing fact that it will enable me to require the GM to tell us how many hit points the monsters have left)

2) Shaman (to enable my standard-action summons to be boosted to ridiculous levels)

However, from the looks of things, Just a Mort, you seem to be building a switch-hitter with an animal companion, so we may not need the additional 'front line' that uber-summons would provide...?

EDIT: Actually, scratch that - I just realised that you wouldn't have the 'Spirit' class feature if using it as a 'Tertiary' class, so you couldn't make that build work.

Inquisitor or Slayer it is!

- Choose a Pathfinder prestige class. (Note, this is not necessarily identical to a Paizo prestige class, but if it's not one of the psionic ones, I'd like for you to talk to me, first).

Does anyone know where a list of the Pathfinder prestige classes are?

Also TL, we've covered classes, traits, background skills, what about races and stats, 20 pt buy?

This way!

Yes Luke, don't get my @rse for citing archive of nethys, I know archive of nethys is more reliable then d20, but the way they put their stuff gives me a headache...

I will have an animal companion - won't be as poweful as what hunters can turn out since I'll only be an archer as opposed to doing the full teamwork chain that hunters can do.

I'm stuck with light armor unless I want to burn feats, which honestly I don't think I will.

But its not everyday you get to play a nature warden. Eh is that weird coming from a cat?

The last time I was in a town I was calling goodberries out of bushes. There was some talk about goodberry pancakes as well ;)

@Just a Mort: He was asking about *Pathfinder* prestige classes, not *Paizo* prestige classes - d20pfsrd only has the latter :-/

@Just A Mort: Eh. Once you work in Boon Companion, you will have an at-level companion, which you will be able to dump all sorts of tasty buffs on. I am sure that it will be fine ;-)

Pouncing kitty-cats tend to do fairly well :-P

I was thinking of getting a Roc. (Because feather domain). So we has lots of birds. I don't know about boon companion because nature warden gives you an animal companion as part of the pre-requisites.

Luke: aren't paizo prestige clases and pathfinder prestige classes the same?

@Just a Mort: He was asking about *Pathfinder* prestige classes, not *Paizo* prestige classes - d20pfsrd only has the latter :-/

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaactually, sir, while the first thing you said is correct, the second is not.

Those listed here are all by Paizo; those listed here, here, and here are not.

:)

Luke: aren't paizo prestige clases and pathfinder prestige classes the same?

No, actually. The difference is that "Paizo" classes mean all classes that are not 3rd party. "Pathfinder" classes means that I allow 3rd party material, but not necessarily 3.X material.

(I love me some 3.5, but I'm less interested in doing conversions for older classes.)

Be advised that, outside of Dreamscarred Psionics, any 3rd party prestige classes must be approved first - mostly so I know exactly what I'm getting into. To that end, it's likely easier to just go with Paizo classes... but it's not necessary, if you know and have a character concept you're strongly attached to.

Also TL, we've covered classes, traits, background skills, what about races and stats, 20 pt buy?

See, this is what I get for reskinning totally building wholecloth for sure and not definitely stealing anythingthatsforsure for an adventure instead of thinking about clarifying details.

That said, I meant what I said before: I'm generally okay with PC races.

To restrict it some, though, let's say it needs to come from Paizo, Alluria, Legendary Games, or Dreamscarred... or something you've been dying to play.

That said, if it's too unusual for the RotR game (in otherwords, if it is entirely unable to blend into the "normal" civilized races to some extent) it might cause problems integrating them. Things like aasimar (especially if they look more human than not, ala scion of humanity), changelings, dhampir, and similar are much easier to integrate than kobolds and goblins and drow*.

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20 point buy.

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Also: no evils! Please, thank you. I have nothing wrong with a well-played evil. I'm just not interested in that experiment today.

Fair warning: Saturday and Sunday are family days. I may well be out of contact for them.

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* Though if you found a way to consistently disguise yourself...

Rocs are also solid - they are just a bit more fragile (due to the low Con), and don't get pounce. Flight, however, is good :-)

That said, I will probably end up having a Mauler Hawk familiar (since it has flight, and the highest strength out of any of the 'non-improved' familiars), so I can hardly complain about birds ;-)

'Pathfinder Prestige Classes' covers stuff published by 3rd-party organisations; 'Paizo Prestige Classes' is the stuff published specifically by Paizo (which, generally, means there is better quality control/it is more balanced).

No, actually. The difference is that "Paizo" classes mean all classes that are not 3rd party. "Pathfinder" classes means that I allow 3rd party material, but not necessarily 3.X material.

AAahhhhh I was thinking the exact opposite, that you were only considering the Prestige classes allowed in the "Pathfinder Society Games" I feel like such a newb...

So I may take Navarre aasimar instead of using the "Dual Tallent" for humans to bump a stat. but that's the least of my worries.

Heh. You may want to put *some* race restrictions out there - otherwise, you'll end up with a party of Veiled Centaurs ;-)

I'll go ahead and assume that the 'very powerful' and 'monstrous' races are not allowed :-P

I do not worry about it lol. Human was all I ever wanted, since I'm going to come from Sandpoint...

speaking of being from Sandpoint, lets discuss these. I planning on keeping Navarre Shoanti so I assumed that he would and outlander. Can there be more than one outlander as long as we take different traits?

Or if we reskin Favored son since I have in Navarre's backstory that he is the sheriffs cousin.

Lets call ourselves Eagle Knights of Sandpoint. We all have a birdy, right?

Yeah, the only problem with that, is that it suggests we are a branch of the Andoran military, based in Sandpoint...

What about The Talons of Sandpoint, or Sandpoint's Hawks?

Sandpoint's Hawks. Talons remind me too much of R.A. Salvatore echoes of fourth magic series bad guy mooks.

uummm, so if I go Mammoth rider for my prestige class, do you think TL would let me have a giant Raptor

@Robert: One thing to consider... this was Paizo's first independent AP, and was heavily dungeon-based - huge animal companions are probably going to have trouble fitting :-/

Belt of the Weasel says hi! Narrow frame and reduce animal too! I'm willing to cast reduce animal to make sure we can bring our Zoo with us!

Ok, maybe not at lv 1.

Ok I need a couple of opinions here. I’ve been looking at prestige classes. The prestige class with spells that I think would fit real well with Navarre is Tattooed Mystic. The non-spell casting class would be Shadow Dancer I don’t think it fits as well as Tattooed Mystic, but I think a Shoanti using shadow would make sense. I also considered Soul Warden and Sentinel. I think they could both fit. And of course who doesn’t want to be a Dragon Disciple but I think it would be a harder sell. I did consider making Navarre a barbarian or bloodrager and going with Rage Prophet. Since Navarre is no longer handling the disable device duties that's also a possibility.

Which ever I choose I think the tertiary class will still be Shaman using the spirit animal @ 2 and Hex @ 5 and 10.

So, Ranger/Tatooed Mystic with spells or Ranger/Shadow Dancer without spells or change him to a rager using Rage Prophet? If you like one of the others better I’m willing to listen and learn ;)

Shadow dancer can cause problems in old APs unless the GM adjusts because of the shadow companion. I've had a shadow solo certain encounters in a mod because of the lack of ANYTHING that could damage it..