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Hey GM Tacticslion I'm working on Navarre, trying to wrap my brain around the "tattoo shaman" Prestige class and how the tattoos work, they are definitely built for a spell caster not a melee character. I am looking at the "stargazer" Prestige class, would it be within acceptable parameters? I think it still fits the Idea that I was going with for Navarre. Any opinions?
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Can you link me what is the stargazer prestige class?
Mope and shuuvu are probably safer where they are, but IC, Inarus would know that Usawoti might be worried about the fate of his animal friends and offer to bring them over.
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sorry, meant to do that Stargazer." It just seems that its 'special abilities' are generally more usable than "Tattooed Mystics" I haven't looked at many others, but it still fits the wandering shoanti mystic theme
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I didn't suggest that because I thought your power has to come from spirits and not stars :p Or maybe the PRC wasn't out on d20 yet...seems like a couple of new PRCs like Rose warden suddenly popped out from paths of the righteous on d20.
On a side note: I feel like doing bite, claw, claw routine today. Then rend. My law lecturer has just given me homework, an essay, 5 pm in the day, and says the submission date is Wednesday. I protested, of course, but no one else in the class did.
I wanted to go for a haircut on Monday, and watch a movie with my bf on Tuesday.
FFS I'm a working adult. An essay needs like half a day to a day of uninterrupted concentration, and a table to write on. Getting it at work is going to be extremely unlikely.
TL, if you're giving people homework, please give reasonable deadlines. Gah.
On the other side, I still have 2 hours of lecture to catch up with because the school changed class at the last minute and I wasn't going to miss the family Christmas party I had planned since months before.
That'd be irresponsible of me. I listened to 3 hours of lecture outside the usual lecture I had on Sunday, which was 10 am to 5 pm, with a 1 h break in between.
And I still need to scribe all my notes into the computer, and I have classes from weds-sunday this week. And there's going to be another lecture ill miss because my BF's grandmother is celebrating her birthday this sunday.
Do you know how hard it is to get your weekends eaten up by classes? Sure, I'm not the party going sociable sort, more of the nerdy studious sort, but hell, I do need a break sometime. If just to look at the greens on the great outdoors....or a run or a swim or...whatever! Just to keep my sanity!
And my Dad's been asking me if I want to go to Malaysia to watch the fireworks. Sure, I'd love to, but since the only days it's likely to happen is going to be on days I have class, I'll end up missing more class and having to play catch up. I hate disappointing people, and it looks like my family might be cancelling our annual trip to Gardens by the Bay to see the Chinese New Year flower display just so that I get to sit at home and study...WTF, that isn't fair to the rest of the family.
I feel stretched. And flattened.
Ok. Done ranting. Ain't going to make the situation any better except for venting of frustrations. Get to work, Mortimer.
PS. I was travelling to work on train when I wrote this. I have no table, so I'd be unable to listen to recorded lectures(I need to take notes), or do an essay(no table) with this block of time.
Incidentally, no easy update until tonight, and it depends on how much we're afflicted by thunderstorms 'round here.
Hey GM Tacticslion I'm working on Navarre, trying to wrap my brain around the "tattoo shaman" Prestige class and how the tattoos work, they are definitely built for a spell caster not a melee character. I am looking at the "stargazer" Prestige class, would it be within acceptable parameters? I think it still fits the Idea that I was going with for Navarre. Any opinions?
Can you link me what is the stargazer prestige class?
Mope and shuuvu are probably safer where they are, but IC, Inarus would know that Usawoti might be worried about the fate of his animal friends and offer to bring them over.
sorry, meant to do that Stargazer." It just seems that its 'special abilities' are generally more usable than "Tattooed Mystics" I haven't looked at many others, but it still fits the wandering shoanti mystic theme
So, in response to all this, I decided to go to Archives of Nethys, which, as a non-profit site, is allowed to host world-specific information.
So Tattooed Mystic, as it turns out, is explicitly Varisian in theme, in the world of Golarion - while that doesn't prevent you from taking it (by any means), it does suggest that it might not be ideal for Shoanti.
So! After checking out the Stargazer, and realizing I've entirely forgotten who, exactly, your RotR characters are supposed to be, I... don't know.
From reading our old posts, it seems like you went with Shaman?
Cool - either way, based on your "flock" question, I'd need:
Actually I just want one bird with the features from all three is that possible? Either way he wants one horse (trait) and one bird (class abilities).Hm! I... haven't actually looked into all of these abilities as clearly as I'd like to make this decision.
Lay it out for me: what does a three-fold ability look like?
Give me a vague chart, something like,
(It probably doesn't look like that at all. I just wrote this up as fast as possible with absolutely nothing but my imagination. Format as you like it. :D)
LEVEL # ~ Str,Dex ~ Int ~ nAC ~ etc.
Level 1-3: +1 ~ ~ ~ 09 ~ +1 ~ blarg
Level 4: +2 ~ ~ ~ ~ 10 ~ +2 ~ brah
Level 5: +2 ~ ~ ~ ~ 11 ~ +2 ~ bulgula
Level 6-7: +3 ~ ~ ~ 12 ~ +3 ~ badum-tish
etc.
... answered, when you can!
I was glancing through some things with the whole spirits/wandering mystic motif you had going on, and here's what I came up with:
- Ashavic Dancer (you mesmerize with dances, and release tormented spirits)
- Anchorite (you find enlightenment within the natural world and smite evil)
- Devoted Muse (a swashbuckling-like style that dazzles as much as damages; but fits in with a wanderer aesthetic)
- Divine Scion (a godly essence; perhaps, in this case, instead, it's a spiritual one)
- Furious Guardian (has the whole "rage" thing and also is themed about protecting others)
- Green Faith Acolyte (spritualist focused on the four-fold beliefs of the Green Faith)
- Hinterlander (may be what you're looking for; it themes around wandering, protecting civilization, and has both ranger traits and spellcasting)
- Horizon Walker (can't get much more "wanderer" than that!)
- Mammoth Rider (already discussed earlier)
- Master of Storms (a mystic who is in harmony with natural stormy stuff)
- Natural Alchemist (like a non-bomb alchemist focused on natural herbalism)
- Nature Warden (it's a warden... of nature! :D ... sorry.)
- Rage Prophet (it's a mix of oracle and barbarian; that feels pretty "Shoanti" to me!)
- Runeguard (mystic that uses ancient Thassilonian runes for spellcasting; suuuuuuper in-theme with RotR, and works perfectly for Shoanti...)
- Scar Seeker (not exactly tattoos, but a self-sacrificial martyr who keeps a record of their story in their skin...)
... I have a few more, but I'm going for now - out of time! Maybe later tonight. Either way, you can discuss things in-character in the other thread.
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... I have a few more, but I'm going for now - out of time! Maybe later tonight. Either way, you can discuss things in-character in the other thread.
In Navarre's original backstory he was a young ranger with wander lust and a desire to prove himself. When we started talking about being 'gestalt' I thought adding a totally different class so he could bring more to the table would be good. Shaman seemed a different enough class, while keeping the Shaonti theme. Once we knew that we were doing a modified gestalt with a main 20 lvl. class and a prestige class that I looked at them.
I thought 'tattooed shaman' seemed like a good fit, it had a familiar, well I could also get a familiar from 'shaman' and an animal companion from 'ranger (falconer)' So instead of having falcon companions I asked about combining them. That's what brought us to this conversation.
The 'tattooed shaman' familiar is a tattoo, which at first sounds cool, but I wanted it to be about natural companions, and the tattoo bird doesn't and then I started looking deeper into the special skills and they leaned more to straight sorcerer (wizard) spells, so I asked about the stargazer class.
I had no idea that 'tattoo shaman' was strictly varisian, I would rather not go on that far of a stretch.
I really liked rage prophet, but most of the special skills help when raging, as a ranger Navarre wouldn't rage, if he went barbarian or bloodrager I would do that.
Hinterland focus' on ranged attack, Navarre will focus on the hammer.
Ashavic Dancer...not even looking into it...
cant do the devoted Muse either, just sayin'
I will look at more, you send me the other thread because I have lost it...I'm going to go post in Morts game, I have some fey to kill.
Navarre was born into the a Shriikirri-Quah tribe nineteen summers ago. Taught by the elders all the ways of their people he grew up strong and quick, showing an affinity for animals, tracking and trapping; he easily picked up the ways of the rangers of their tribe.
He learned the ways of the prairie, the forests even the caves and caverns. He learned how to find his way by the stars. He learned how to care for the horses and hawks that are so valued by his tribe. Instead of the shamans magic he learned how to set and spring traps. He had learned all his tribe could teach him. Now it was time he earned his own way.
Navarre had to prove, more to himself than anyone else, that he could make it on his own in the world. He left the tribe to wander and travel, quelling the wander lust in his soul. He decided to start in the metropolis of Sandpoint. He had never been to the city before, he would not have dared go on his own but his cousin, his mother’s brother’s sons, Belor Viskalai and Garridan Viskalai had gone to Sandpoint and even thought they had taken separate paths things seemed to be going well for them.
Navarre had heard of giants mobilizing throughout the countryside, he decided to venture to Sandpoint to help them, and his cousin, prepare for a possible incursion. Even if there were no giants it would be an opportunity to learn from his cousin about the city and the folks who lived there. He could use Sandpoint as a central location to challenge himself and learn his limitations. Possibly working as: a guard, or a trapper or as a horse trainer or a falconer, possibly he would have many jobs and many adventures to tell his grandchildren about after he returned to the Shriikirri-Quah .
I'm positive PRCs from Paths of the Righteous just made it onto d20...
To be clear, revealing that the tattooed mystic is a Varisian thing was not exactly a condemnation of the concept. I'm more interested in the story the mechanics suggest than the story already given to the mechanics for you.
Anyway, the rest of the list:
- Shadow dancer (already discussed)
- Spherewalker
- Stargazer
- Winter Witch
... ttthhhhaaaaaaaaaaaat said, those were built off of your "shaman" idea, not the other concepts.
He learned the ways of the prairie, the forests even the caves and caverns. He learned how to find his way by the stars. He learned how to care for the horses and hawks that are so valued by his tribe. Instead of the shamans magic he learned how to set and spring traps. He had learned all his tribe could teach him. Now it was time he earned his own way.
Navarre had to prove, more to himself than anyone else, that he could make it on his own in the world. He left the tribe to wander and travel, quelling the wander lust in his soul. He decided to start in the metropolis of Sandpoint. He had never been to the city before, he would not have dared go on his own but his cousin, his mother’s brother’s sons, Belor Viskalai and Garridan Viskalai had gone to Sandpoint and even thought they had taken separate paths things seemed to be going well for them.
Navarre had heard of giants mobilizing throughout the countryside, he decided to venture to Sandpoint to help them, and his cousin, prepare for a possible incursion. Even if there were no giants it would be an opportunity to learn from his cousin about the city and the folks who lived there. He could use Sandpoint as a central location to challenge himself and learn his limitations. Possibly working as: a guard, or a trapper or as a horse trainer or a falconer, possibly he would have many jobs and many adventures to tell his grandchildren about after he returned to the Shriikirri-Quah .
So! You look like you're looking more for a skilled than anything else, and focused on things like traps and such; specifically, you're looking to inspire others and grandchildren with your exploits.
So, may I present: Darechaser!
That and the chevalier, dark delver, and liberator also play into concepts I seem to be picking up in your character idea.
Hope those give you some good ideas!
Either way, you can discuss things in-character in the other thread.
I will look at more, you send me the other thread because I have lost it...
The "other thread" I mentioned is just the Gameplay thread; I was encouraging you guys to RP together (not talking about anything other than play-posting). Everyone's approached Ereven by this point, so I've posted and now it's up to you again. :)
I'm going to go post in Morts game, I have some fey to kill.
Enjoy!
Hey all, hope all is well! Just had to a driveby hug!
Huzzah! Hug back!
*meows at Hmm* yes, TL, I'm here. Both sides sound like shady sorts..honestly. I think they could happily kill each other, the world would be better for it.
What do you think he's been doing all this time...?
;)
Just waiting for one more response before updating. I don't want to rush folk or make anyone feel left behind! :)
Sorry about the delay, Mondays are ugly for me. I work third shift (11 -7) and on Mondays we have mandatory meetings (1 - 4). So I run home sleep for three hours, go to work, run back home and sleep for another four. On my way to work now and will post in a couple of hours.
totally forgot, Hey 'Hmm'
I'd be upset, but for the fact that I'm not even remotely upset! Peace and safe driving and work to you, my friend!
I'll probably be asleep shortly, myself: today was pretty long, here, too, though not so long as yours!
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congratulations on the finished essay,
So more ramblings about, Navarre. The original idea was to be a shoanti ranger with a pet horse and falcon. I went trapfinder for two reasons, I hate messing with spells and I figured that a party would need someone who could deal with traps. So wanted to have a couple of things covered to help the party.
Now, the situation is a little different, Mort said she is going to handle the traps But I still want Navarre to be able to handle a couple of things and I thought picking up some form of spell caster would help, Mort and I talked about the shaman w/battle spirt and I thought it was a good combination with ranger.
Of course that's moot now, but having three people that can cast some sort of spells can't hurt. I still want to keep the wandering shoanti with a horse and a falcon, but that's the rough edges, I need to fill in the middle: a melee and a caster would help I think, as well as keeping shaman as the peripheral class. I don't want to focus on being mounted too much, but maybe a little, so no cavalier. And I think using a caster class that focuses on wisdom would be better so the wisdom will help with perception and survival and other rangery stuff, assuming I go rangery, either way you can't go wrong with a high wisdom.
I considered charisma but Diplomacy didn't seem that important in previous conversations. The original plan was to go human, but aasimar is always attractive, so Oracle of battle would work too I guess. See the conundrum? Way to many choices for my little sleep deprived brain...
OK, still working on lists, TL don't kill Usawoti, Golan and Inarus off too quickly, I still have to figure this out, I can't let Mort and Luke outshine me too badly ;)
And I've finished my essay! Turned out to be 10 pages long >.<
I'm FWEEEE!
Congratulations!
Ah, regrets. I do wish I could change air of those dialogue now, but, alas, it is not to be.
(He should be much, much angrier.)
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Double crossing them is going to be quite a feat. I am NOT good at talking nice to people. Its more like a Hmm thing.
Ask me to murderhobo, sure. Talk nice...we've got a looong way to go. Didn't out any ranks into bluff, cos, you know, I don't like lying.
That's up to you. I'm not telling you what to do: Erevel is.
It's up to you if you take his advice or not. :)
(That said, there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere with what he said. A diplomacy could smooth it out, but maybe none of you care enough to fix it. That's fine, too!)
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All right, its back to our usual scheduled programming about NWN philosophy!
WoTF:
Am I willing to damn everyone to a lack of eternity (and possible eventual corruption into undeath and mostrosity) for my own sense of righteousness?
Get off your high horse! Your own sense of righteousness is not worth screwing everyone over. Who are you to put yourself over others?
I believe that everyone should know the consequences of their actions. Like if people stop believeing in gods, the gods lose their powers, no one gets divine casting, the place becomes a grayer place, fine. But to force the choice upon others by threatening them, you have to worship a god, or you get no good ending, no matter what you did in life, strikes me as exrremely unfair. And makes the gods nothing more then an arrogant dictator. Does that mean you're going to be shoving religion down everyone's throat? Does doing evil in the name of god(yeah, they're dubious gods like Shar, Malar etc), get you a better fate then the wall? Why should it be that way?
So, destroying the wall of the faithless would set all those souls free. What problem is it in Faerrun if no one believes in gods? No divine magic? Well, the populace sowed their own beds, so they get to reap the consequences of their actions.
Hags dream: The ends does not justify the means. Sure I like knowledge, like reading, but not if you murder and torture people to do it. Knowledge is neither good or evil, it just is. And to sacrifice morality just for knowledge...no, I wouldn't do it.
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I hate messing with spells sorry Mort, I know that hurts your soul a little
Blasphemy! *summoms spiritual Hammer of Magicky and smites RH with it*
Magic is life! Renounce your erroneous ways or face judgement!Yeah, it hurts my soul more then a little ;)
Kidding. It'd be one boring world if we were all alike, like mass produced cookies from a factory. Besides, I always like to hide behind someone ;)
Diplo, yeah I mean its good to substitute for knowledge checks in town, but generally the average townsperson - you don't need to roll diplo to talk to them, right? Gimme a break. And I don't do the redemption thing very well. I think a lot of me is in need of it, anyway
Shaman + ranger doesn't mesh as well as shaman and cleric imo, because cleric has more self buffs(like divine favour), which shamans must poach off cleric list. Of all the shaman spirits I know, battle is, I think, the most useful to beatsticks. We shall not talk about the forbidden cheese that Luke showed me.
All right, its back to our usual scheduled programming about NWN philosophy!
Woot!
Good game (and good conversation) is good...
Am I willing to damn everyone to a lack of eternity (and possible eventual corruption into undeath and mostrosity) for my own sense of righteousness?
Get off your high horse! Your own sense of righteousness is not worth screwing everyone over. Who are you to put yourself over others?
Harsh language, Mort!
Also, you have badly misread the situation and the statement of mine you just quoted, if you think that's what's going on.
I literally did the opposite of that.
Option 1: "Everyone has an eternity after mortal death." This allows for paradise or not, according to their natures, and makes their decisions have long-term meaning.
Option 2: "No one has an eternity after death." This means that everyone just ends at death (or worse).
More to the point...
I believe that everyone should know the consequences of their actions. Like if people stop believeing in gods, the gods lose their powers, no one gets divine casting, the place becomes a grayer place, fine. But to force the choice upon others by threatening them, you have to worship a god, or you get no good ending, no matter what you did in life, strikes me as exrremely unfair. And makes the gods nothing more then an arrogant dictator. Does that mean you're going to be shoving religion down everyone's throat? Does doing evil in the name of god(yeah, they're dubious gods like Shar, Malar etc), get you a better fate then the wall? Why should it be that way?
Point in fact, doing evil doesn't get you "a better fate"... at least not automatically.
By destroying the wall, you are, in fact, mandating your own sense of morality and self-righteousness against all those who genuinely wish to help others.
The idea that divine magic goes away, "So what." is exactly as unfair as mandating the wall: both of those things not only harm people, but devalue everything they find important.
The fact is, acting out and destroying the wall isn't automatically a bad thing (because, in fact, it is exactly "unfair"), but leaving the wall is also not a bad thing, because, at present, it's the "best" plan anyone has for maintaining the eternity of everyone - without the wall, there are no gods; without gods, there is no divine magic and no one maintaining the divine realms; without anyone maintaining divine realms, something like the Imaskari empire (or worse) just happens all over again (+) you end up with malevolent undead seeking to devour and destroy everything (and or non-existence, which just means you murdered an eternal entity).
It sucks, but that's how things are, at present.
If you end up with a better plan - i.e. something that replaces the WotF, but still maintains divinity - then congratulations! You've come up with a better plan, and I'm willing to hear it out.
But, in my play through, I found destroying the wall to be a reckless decision that slowly condemned all for the sake of a few.
So, destroying the wall of the faithless would set all those souls free. What problem is in Faerrun if no one believes in gods? No divine magic? Well, the populace sowed their own beds, so they get to reap the consequences of their actions.
... actually, it would set all those souls free... but to what end?
You are mandating a lack of gods by destroying the Wall'. You are freeing a relative few (and destabilizing the planes) to the detriment of all, while maintaining your own sense of moral superiority... "because I don't like it."
It's certainly idealistic, and I respect the idealism behind it, but it's not pragmatic; though it does have merit (the idea of annulling the Wall'), but it presupposes nothing but the equivalent of puppies-and-rainbows thereafter* (or that "freedom and non-existence" is better than "eternal paradise"). Is it?
Perhaps, but I don't think it is, and, either way, I don't intend to tell everyone that it is.
*
That said, you're vastly devaluing divine magic.
With that you have:
- magical super-healing
- poison and disease prevention and elmenination
- raising of the dead
- regeneration
- reincarnation
- peace with the natural world
- vast amounts of civilization-improving information
- recovery from a vast array of ills still impossible to fix today
While these things are not common, they are possible in a world with Divine Magic. That's not "a little grayer." that's the difference between, "Short hard life of serfdom and death at 45." and, "A comparatively decent life of farm living with family time and similar luxuries, and death at ~70."
That's huge.
And this better life actually applies under most groups - even terrible governments generally want their citizens functioning as long and well as possible. Slavery happens, and that's rough, but it's usually not as bad as in the real world (exceptions most certainly apply).
That said, there are downsides to having divine magic, sure... but those are more than equaled and exceeded by arcane magic, which, if left with no divine counterbalance, would more or less dominate the world... oh, wait, it's ruled by a deity, so I guess it just fades... but, you know, actually, it wouldn't, as we found out with the 4E debacle proved, it would more or less just destroy the world, untold millions of souls, and all sorts of other things, right along with it.
(I mean, I suppose you could just kill evil people and take their stuff, and convert their souls to raw energy; I'm sure that'll end well for everyone?)
And that's the problem with destroying the Wall of the Faithless. No one says the wall is ideal; heck Kelemvor himself tried to do without it at first, until it began wrecking everything. The problem is that there's no alternate solution or contingency that permits the existence of everything that reality hinges upon.
If you come up with a good one, let me know. Until then, I'll kindly request that you, too, step off the equally-or-higher high horse, before requesting that I do. This is, of course, different from mandating that you never take down the wall - I'm more than willing to admit that others can come to different conclusions due to their preferences and ideals.
Hags dream: The ends does not justify the means. Sure I like knowledge, like reading, but not if you murder and torture people to do it. Knowledge is neither good or evil, it just is. And to sacrifice morality just for knowledge...no, I wouldn't do it.
Again, I don't think you understand what I'm saying.
The hags needed to be destroyed. But in so doing, you destroy their Dream, and waste incredibly important information that may well save many more lives than they steal. It's an unknown.
That's why I wish I had ELH material. I could resolve the paradox.
But I didn't, and I can't in that situation. In the end, I, too (usually, anyway), destroy the coven, because I can't allow their cruelty against the genuine innocent who actually have no choice about it to continue.
There is a major difference between the WotF and the Coveya Kurg'annis, however: the wall is, "Here's how reality works, this helps literally everyone in the short-term, and everyone that makes a choice to believe anything - even last-minute deathbed conversions - in the long term; without it, everyone suffers on every level; make your choice." and the coven is, "Screw you, I'm taking everything I want and destroying you, and others pay for the privilege."
One actually allows you a choice - however limited it may seem - for the sake of most.
The other actively removes all choice for the sake of an extreme few.
Obviously, you see it differently. That's fair.
I don't condemn those who hate the Wall', I just don't personally find the idea of destroying it to be wise, unless you have a solid counter-proposal to save everyone you'd be condemning by doing so.
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There’s a possibility that even without the Wall, there would be people believing in gods, and so there would be divine magic. What makes you think that Faerrun requires as such? Other fictional worlds (Valdemar, Elenium (yeah troll gods have a bit of a problem), but Aphrael and the Styric gods don’t need walls to keep people faithful)) don’t seem to have any problems despite still functioning that gods draw powers from their worshippers. How many worshippers do you need to power a god? (If you’re pulling 4E on what actually happened, I have no argument for that since I know NOTHING on what happened in 4E).
And Witches and Oracles in pathfinder get to cheat on getting all those disease removal, superhealing…all that fun stuff, without worshipping gods.
there is no divine magic and no one maintaining the divine realms; without anyone maintaining divine realms, something like the Imaskari empire (or worse) just happens all over again (+) you end up with malevolent undead seeking to devour and destroy everything (and or non-existence, which just means you murdered an eternal entity)
To be honest – I didn’t know about that. My Faerrun lore is gathered from NWN series (I don’t think they actually say what the gods are doing), and whatever Forgotten Realms books I can get out of the library (hey I was a full time student back then, with limited pockets). And the random adventure does not tell you what gods are doing. (Its usually about some random Harper/dark elf and friends saving the world;) And Harpers are not exactly what you’d call religious, and Mielikk doesn’t seem to bother in mortal affairs much). And the godwar series(leading to the spellplague), I tried to read it, couldn’t understand the plot, put it down. What Myrkul did to Akashi didn’t improve my opinion of gods any.
If I did know that the gods were maintaining a barrier of some kind to keep out something nasty, then yes I would agree that they need all the help they can get, and no I wouldn’t be trying to tear down the Wall of the Faithless. I can understand greater good, the problem is that to me, I did not know that they were even doing that. *Sheepish grin*
The problem about the coven is that depending on who gets their hands on their knowledge, it whether it actually saves more lives then they steal is unknown(*Cue evil lich cackling*). At least you know they’ve been murderhoboing people. The value of the knowledge is unknown and shouldn’t be weighed against all the number of lives they’ve ruined (a known thing).
I dunno anything about 4E except for the complaints I’ve heard from my friends.
What makes you think that Faerrun requires as such?
Because, as I said, upon first becoming a go, Kelemvor tried it without the wall for a short while, and everything started to go to pot.
I don't have time to response to the rest, but I knew the answer to that one! :D
(FR already has rules that are vastly different from many other settings. This is one.)
I wouldn't ask that of you! I never read it either - had to dig it up from lore. :)
So!
Clarification time!
Islands:
You started on the "north" edge of an island inside menhirs.
You flex on a path through the seas toward the north.
You arrived at a sprawling island - a place where you still, currently, are - and fought weird falling heads and the dragon that has integrated itself into your group in lieu of a half-off it claims to be.
To the "east" is an island or group with hags and Giants.
To the "west" is a small island, then, beyond it, another island or group of islands with fungus-demons.
To the "north" of the small, barren island is the one E-dude said you needed.
He warned that, effectively, all the islands to your west were either controlled by or guarded by fungus. The islands to the east had the information or object you need to use the thing currently controlled by the fungus.
Inarus, even a cursory glance from your flight is enough to note that there is still a vicious storm to the "west", complete with multitudes of lightning strikes.
Also: currently kind of pressed for time (sort of)/maybe about to go to sleep (if I can manage). If I end up with insomnia, I may post more now-ish; otherwise, feel free to use the information I've given you, RP among yourselves, or so on.
Also aka clarifying questions here, and I'll do my best to answer them.
As it turns out, having an hour and a half of TKD really eats into your day!
There’s a possibility that even without the Wall, there would be people believing in gods, and so there would be divine magic. What makes you think that Faerrun requires as such? Other fictional worlds (Valdemar, Elenium (yeah troll gods have a bit of a problem), but Aphrael and the Styric gods don’t need walls to keep people faithful)) don’t seem to have any problems despite still functioning that gods draw powers from their worshippers. <snip>
And Witches and Oracles in pathfinder get to cheat on getting all those disease removal, superhealing…all that fun stuff, without worshipping gods.
Sort-of-kind-of. They, themselves, might not be worshiping gods, but (from what I've heard from JJ) gods are still powering them, nonetheless.
That said, none of those other campaigns (even Pathfinder) require gods to have mortal worship to sustain them. That's an artifact of Faerunian-exclusive () lore.
How many worshippers do you need to power a god?
Though it varies by campaign setting, 3.0 actually clarified it, and it turns out... the number is kind of low, and rather vague.
But!
... so are the relative populations of what we're actually talking about.
- quasi deities (rank 0): immortal super-creatures that "may have some worshipers" - can't actually grant spells (unless they can)- demigods (rank 1-5): have "a few hundred to a few thousand mortal worshipers"
- lesser gods (rank 6-10): have "a few thousand to tens of thousands of worshipers"
- intermediate gods (rank 11-15): have "hundreds of thousands of mortal worshipers"
- greater gods (rank 16-20): "may have millions of mortal worshipers"
- over gods/uber-deities (rank 21+): don't have worshipers, unless it's other gods
... so that's still quite a lot. FR has a lot of really-high-rank-gods, including Kelemvor, Myrkul, Mystra (goddess of arcane magic; also the source of all arcane magic), Sune, Shar, and many more.
The book, Deities and Demigods talks at great length about how this varies from game to game and world to world, and, in the context it presents, doesn't even require that many worshipers (it just presumes that gods are divine), but it does mention the possibility how, in some settings, the deities require mortal worship to function.
In FR itself, the deities actually didn't used to require mortal worship - they got along just fine without it.
... which caused big, powerful gods to start pulling a tyranny on puny mortals, which is a big no-no, so the over-god, Ao, made them subject to mortal worship again. The Wall' is an artifact of that.
(As it turns out, whether FR deities are dependent or not seems to have changed from time to time in FR canon; probably as different ages came about. It also seems to vary by pantheon, as some gods out-and-out died from lack of worship, while others never did, only waning. It's vague, is what I'm saying, but at the time that the Wall' was known to be a thing - the 3.X era of FR - it had a specific purpose, and that purpose was to keep people worshiping gods, or, should they choose not to, keep the seams of reality from falling apart by powering it anyway.)
(If you’re pulling 4E on what actually happened, I have no argument for that since I know NOTHING on what happened in 4E).
<snip-snip>
I dunno anything about 4E except for the complaints I’ve heard from my friends.
That's fair. 4E was a kind of amazing attempt at something that didn't really succeed, and successfully spawned Pathfinder and launched Paizo as a successful independent company as a result of its attempts.
I find the game flawed, grindy, and (sometimes) frustrating, but many found the action-focused nature of the thing to be right up their ally... unfortunately, not enough did so to please WotC's owners, Hasbro, so... a new edition is now a 'go' with 5E.
I think 4E would have handily made the best video game of any iteration of D&D (don't believe the hype - it wasn't ever an MMO), and I feel it's a great shame that it's the one edition - the only one - that never got a relatively-faithful adaptation of its rules and expectations.
Seriously, it's the greatest waste of an edition's potential... but anyway, my irritation with it failing to get what would have been the single-coolest D&D tactical game (which could have been like FFT, but D&D4E) is besides the point and off-topic.
The things that happened in FR in the 4E switch were... revealing, in many ways.
The short of the story is that Mystra - the goddess of all arcane magic, and probably the single most important deity outside of Ao - is murdered by Cyric and Shar (two evil gods), because he's a moron and she's a bitter old... person.
And because of that... the realms kind of exploded.
Whole continents vanished into another world, and new ones literally fell from the sky onto this world. Reality warped and micro-continent-sized... places just... kind of... appeared on the map, shoving reality aside a bit, just to fit in.
And uncountable numbers died.
An entire NG-to-LG nation was consumed in "blue fire" - a kind of arcane wasting sickness/mutant plague disease that either gave you weird powers, infected you, drove you mad, turned you into a (probably mindless) monster-and-or-non-living-good-and-or-more-blue-fire, or other really unpleasant things.
Worst* of all, the cracks in reality allowed for the Abolithic Sovereignity to slip through and start looking around for a way to set up shop. It's kind of like if Lovecraft's Great Old Ones, complete with a Tower-of-Insanity (tm!), and a horde of flying mythic super-powered Aboleths just kind of started hanging out near the Inner Sea looking for a place to crash for today, so they can open up their tower, "Sometime soon." in order to break down the barriers between their reality - where everything is evil insane aberrants all the time, even and especially the gods - and the local reality. So, sort of like a traveling uncontainable world-wound that didn't really do much (though it did, kind of), but just kept threatening to open any day now into a full-blown ultra-apocalypse.
*
Beyond that...
there is no divine magic and no one maintaining the divine realms; without anyone maintaining divine realms, something like the Imaskari empire (or worse) just happens all over again (+) you end up with malevolent undead seeking to devour and destroy everything (and or non-existence, which just means you murdered an eternal entity)
To be honest – I didn’t know about that. My Faerrun lore is gathered from NWN series (I don’t think they actually say what the gods are doing), and whatever Forgotten Realms books I can get out of the library (hey I was a full time student back then, with limited pockets). And the random adventure does not tell you what gods are doing. (Its usually about some random Harper/dark elf and friends saving the world;) And Harpers are not exactly what you’d call religious, and Mielikk doesn’t seem to bother in mortal affairs much). And the godwar series(leading to the spellplague), I tried to read it, couldn’t understand the plot, put it down. What Myrkul did to Akashi didn’t improve my opinion of gods any.
If I did know that the gods were maintaining a barrier of some kind to keep out something nasty, then yes I would agree that they need all the help they can get, and no I wouldn’t be trying to tear down the Wall of the Faithless. I can understand greater good, the problem is that to me, I did not know that they were even doing that. *Sheepish grin*
Yeah, NWN doesn't really cover it much, because the characters in it have no real reason to know that sort of thing. But even if they don't, Kaelyn the Dove should know how the divine planes work, and that way is this: when a creature dies, they go to live in their divine realm with their deity (presupposing they aren't judged as False by Kelemvor - e.x. a lawful-evil Kuthonic Sadist doesn't get to go to Calistria-ville to ruin everyone else's afterlife just because he feels like turning into a Kyton-esque playground as a sacrifice to his god by making a last-minute prayer, or whatever), and from there they get to choose (or be chosen for) one of several fates (presented in decreasing order, based on my understanding):
- eternal: the character basically lives forever in the afterlife of their choice/the realm of their judgement
- absorption: sometimes you just get bored of eternity; as an alternate, if they are 'done' living and choose to do so, they may slowly shed the essence of themselves and shore up the plane to which they retired; this reinforces and strengthens that plane's existence, and produces such things as outsiders and other stuff related
- unification/consumption: if they are chosen by their god, their essence may be used as a building block of the god itself; sometimes this is consumption (typically by evil deities who swallow souls like candy), while other times this is is unification or true oneness such that the essence of the god entirely overwhelms the previous essence and, though memories are retained, the god is basically himself or herself. In one notable case, a lawful good god consumed his own worshipers (it was entirely voluntary on their part) in order to come back from death to lay a mortal blow against a much bigger and more powerful evil god. This sort of thing is exceptionally underdeveloped and ill-explained; it's never outright said to occur, but the implication is heavy throughout a number of older and newer works - at least it seems that way, to me. In most cases, it would seem like this is the greatest single honor a person who worships a given deity can have - literally becoming part of their own deity.
- somnolence: just falling into an eternity of rest (though this most often leads to absorption, as outlined above, rather than a 'true' eternity)
Each of these (with the exception of consumption by malevolent deities) are generally voluntary fates - things those who are enjoying the afterlife get to choose for themselves. Sometimes it's less so - the damned souls of Hell are usually tortured and broken into devils; the souls of the Abyss are usually fractured into abyssal maggots; and so on - but for the most part, it's a voluntary result of an eternity.
And each realm is, in the 3.X iteration, at least, (and also in the 4E version) effectively maintained by the god who rules that segment and the careful, regulated influx of "appropriate" souls. Without those, the plane would cease expanding, growing, and eventually shrink or cease altogether.
As for the Imaskari... they existed a lllllllooooooooonnnnnnng time ago, and were likely the "other greatest human kingdom, ever." - before Netheril.
They were godless arcane artificers who refused all gods for their arcane power (Mystra was... different at the time, and didn't care), who specialized in conjuration and extraplanar mastery.
As a result, they literally kidnapped hordes of Earth-people (Egyptians -> Mulan people; Sumerians -> Chultan people) and erected a, "No Gods Allowed" arcane barrier that actually worked to shut out the Mulan and Chultan peoples' gods (up until those gods started taking on mortal form, and reincarnating through generations of new rulers who overthrew the Imaskari).
The Imaskari were some of the greatest arcanist and artificers, but also some of the most vicious tyrants ever seen from human kind in FR.
The problem about the coven is that depending on who gets their hands on their knowledge, it whether it actually saves more lives then they steal is unknown(*Cue evil lich cackling*). At least you know they’ve been murderhoboing people. The value of the knowledge is unknown and shouldn’t be weighed against all the number of lives they’ve ruined (a known thing).
Yeah; again, that's why I sided the way I did.
1 - unknown thing (with no known payoff, even if potential)
2 - known thing (with known payoff, and potential-but-unknown downside)
... go with 2, unless I'm certain the downside is stronger.
But like I said, I'm totally okay with people taking a different view - on both of those. Neither are fundamentally "better" or "more right"... both are based only on what we're able to perceive and understand.
That's why I think the option was brilliant as-presented in the game - it doesn't tell you anything other than what the characters would know or understand, and leaves it to yourself to decide based on the evidence presented.
Hah! Ninja'd in the other thread.
I figure Mort won't mind, and since it's a rather terrible one, I could show off my "map" to you all, and let you laugh along with me.
I presume the-dragon-formerly-known-as-Inarus draws it in the dirt or something.
o
Directions:. W .
S + N
. E .Key:
: a main island; this is not really to scale, at all, but it shows the concept.
o: the lone small island in this area; again, not to scale, but shows the concept.
: the seas; it's the wrong color (it should be black), but it's clearer this way.
The sea seems to extend as far as you can tell in all directions.
The distance from one island to another is only about ~300 feet (a little more), and each island is easily roughly half a mile in diameter (~2,640 feet).
There you go! Hope that helps.
You guys started on the "southern"-most island (the one to the far left); you are now on the one closest to that.
Inarus, there is a lot more information in the spoiler in the other thread. Spread it, or not, as you like.
Sorry I didn't post it earlier - that map was quite a bear, believe it or not!
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Heh. Well, all of this is just serving to reinforce the fairly insular way that Golan has been brought up - this level of deceit and insanity is something that he doesn't have to put up with at home, amongst his own People ;-)
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Im waiting if I can bum off Usawoti's rod of extend for heroism, then Ill move to yaking with the hags and giants. Also - to the rest of the party - feel free to suggest other ways of doing things. I don't really see much other way of proceeding.
Id basically want to spread whatever information I know off in the spoiler.
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By all means, do so - Golan will be content to skulk around in the shadows ;-)
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The dragon kind of stands out ;-)
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I can choose to be invisible, but frankly, starting negotiations while invisible is, rather bad form.
I can scout invis also, but mind you, what would your most likely reaction be, if you were to see an invisible dragon flying around?
I've so far scouted as far as I can (I think) without revealing my presence.
Don't mind us, TL, we're just talking shop.
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Well, Golan is reasonably stealthy; my 'Take 10' on Stealth is 36, after all...
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I used to be rather stealthy. Then I became big and green :P
Don't mind us, TL, we're just talking shop.
I enjoy it!
EDIT: To be clear, do let me know when you've made a decision, though. Otherwise, I'll just be waiting and enjoying the RP from the lot of you.
I used to be rather stealthy. Then I became big and green :P
That should be, like, -4, at most...
I wrote a post and then my computer froze, so I lost it. Is there anyway we can explore anything at all without speaking to the two sides, I really would like more information before we reveal ourselves.
Oof, that's harsh and unpleasant. My empathy.
You may certainly stealth around. What would you like to stealth/perception?
The main problem (dragon aside), I'd guess, is a method of getting from island to island. Obviously, Erevel managed to get you from the original island to here, but you don't automatically have a method for any others that you know of (though, of course, both the dragon and Golan can fly - as can Shuvuu; so I guess that just leaves Usawoti and Mope).
I suppose I should mention that Erevel is currently sulking "over there" (in a copse of trees a few hundred feet away), but still on the same island you are on (the dragon would have seen him in flight).
Basically, the ball is in your court, at present. I'm good with whatever, though, of course, you don't know how long you have until something happens.
Oh; also worth noting - effectively, anything within 20 ft. of the main waves of the dark waters seem to be subject to its groping tendrils.
Please ask any more clarifying questions, and I'll be glad to answer, at least as far as your characters can tell.
As a reminder, a thick cloud-barrier is covering the sky, again, but there is still juuuu~uuust enough light to qualify as "low-light" for purposes of vision.
A light breeze covers things, and the vague smell of salt - and that faint nauseating dark water stench - hangs about the air, fighting with the pleasant fresh grass and trees scents.
The clouds move with wind, but in extremely odd, alien patterns (as noted by Usawoti, before) - patterns like nothing seen in the world you know, though you get the gist of how they're reacting to winds... impossible winds of nonsensical directions.
Usawoti would guess they're pretty thick, but compressed - kind of like storm clouds, except with no possibility of breaking, for weird reasons.
There is no actual storm in your immediate area - the breeze is strictly the "pleasant" and "cool" variety in an otherwise-warm area - almost akin to Golan's home aerie.
The only island Inarus-dragon could notice in his (currently brief) survey with obviously heavy vegetation that doesn't look poisonous or fungal is the one you're on right now.
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Id offer you a ride certainly. I just don't know if Golan doesn't want to go sneaky sneaky on his own. If he can get closer, he can find out more. I'd rather not...blow my cover, so to speak.
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Wait a minute. I'm still sneaky! Take 10 gives 22 stealth! But Golan is sneakier...
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Can you imagine a visible rider on an invisible dragon? You'd be just riding on air! :p
I suggest we poke our friendly neighbourhood strix to do some spying.