One of my biggest concerns, actually, is what happens if the switch gets flipped in a situation where the barbarian (who would have way more HP - especially when raging) is really, really low on HP? It would seem that I'm looking at insta-death in that situation for the bard.
Well, if the two characters inhabit the same body, I'd assume they would have the same HP at all times, except when raging is taken into affect. Because it seems to me like these two should definitely have the same physical stats and different mental stats from what I'm understanding.
I just had another question that came to mind. How would starting wealth work if a race was taken with no class levels? The ancient silver dragon would be equivalent to a 25th level character. Do we get wealth based on CR or something else?
According to Hero Lab an adult silver dragon is equivalent to a 17th level character and an ancient silver dragon is equivalent to a 25th level character.
I didn't know that was a thing. Though apparently, CR can vary wildly depending on the gear that something has. So, from what I can understand, that ancient silver dragon could end up making the cut, but only if entirely poor. Which seems like a relatively large downside.
In answering Eben's campaign mechanic questions, plus ace's; I believe someone said it was a 25-point buy in, and wealth was pegged at level 20 (880k gp), plus 125k gp/level after that. That would put us at 1.505M gp, which is still far less than the 4.32M gp Epic 25 would give our characters in the 3.0 days.
My question to Eben on his hulking green rage monster is, my only real concern is that you're trying to create a gestalted character. On paper, this is what it sounds like: the split personality sounds great, but your talking about a lvl 20 bard/lvl 20 barbarian. At least, that's what it sounds like to me. My 2cp is that I am fine with it personally, but I can't speak for the rest of the group.
I just had another question that came to mind. How would starting wealth work if a race was taken with no class levels? The ancient silver dragon would be equivalent to a 25th level character. Do we get wealth based on CR or something else?
According to Hero Lab an adult silver dragon is equivalent to a 17th level character and an ancient silver dragon is equivalent to a 25th level character.
I didn't know that was a thing. Though apparently, CR can vary wildly depending on the gear that something has. So, from what I can understand, that ancient silver dragon could end up making the cut, but only if entirely poor. Which seems like a relatively large downside.
OK I can see ace's point, but if you look at it from a RAW prespective, dragons in general get a 3x treasure listing. On that, GM Vixen would get a lot of resources to play with for her dragon, which can wear magic items just like everyone else, although they generally don't wear any or use any.
Finally, my vote for wishes and stat tomes is to allow them, but they should come out of your starting treasury. It's easy to figure out for stat tomes, but for wishes, we may need to assign a value. Want to bump up your stats by 5 each using wish, that will cost you 750,000 gp. :)
DId forget about the treasure listing, but the CR isn't built for loot, really. I just think that a dragon's CR would be higher if it had multiple magic items on it.
On another note, I'm just waiting to hear those figures confirmed by a GM. I've started accumulating which spells I plan to have known, and think I'm almost settled on a bloodline. If we're looking for godhood and not just immortality, I'll take Imperious. Otherwise, I'll be taking Void-Touched or Abberant.
My question to Eben on his hulking green rage monster is, my only real concern is that you're trying to create a gestalted character. On paper, this is what it sounds like: the split personality sounds great, but your talking about a lvl 20 bard/lvl 20 barbarian. At least, that's what it sounds like to me. My 2cp is that I am fine with it personally, but I can't speak for the rest of the group.
Hmmm. My goal wasn't an attempt to try to play gestalt. I don't' ever intend to have access to both sets of abilities/skills/feats at any one time. Instead, one character is dominant and the other is dormant. He could never buff up using his bard spells, kick off inspire, and then rage and break face. he'd only ever have access to rage OR bard stuff.
Basically, the game would start with the bard in control. Until something happened that triggered the switch, I'd play the bard. Once the switch is triggered, I'd make a roll to determine which of the personalities wins the power struggle, and – based on that role – either the bard would remain in control ro the barbarian would emerge.
That make sense? And if so, does that help everyone make a decision if they're comfortable with it?
I've been moving for a few days, but still here. I think I'll do the clone master alchemist. Not sure how its going to work, but I'd like to make him battle viable and effectively (if not already via discovery) immortal. Ill need to play with it, but that's the idea.
Eben, I just don't know. I'm not entirely sure if I'm cool with randomly switching between characters like that.
Cool. I'd love to hear from everyone before we decide, though. If that's the general consensus, obviously I won't push for it.
... though I would try to set up specific circumstances that would cause the trigger... making it less "whimsical" or "logic-less" while retaining a bit of that randomness (that is a bit of the fun for me). For example: I was thinking of taking Iron Will > Improved Iron Will for both of them. In any situation where they are forced to use the Improved Iron Will re-roll, the personality conflict roll happens. Thematically, this would look like the dominant person's mind being nearly overwhelmed... the re-roll is granted because there is two minds trying to resist the effect. Both personalities draw strength from that, but they vie for dominance at the same time.
Everyone, let me know your general reaction to playing alongside a character like this.
I've been moving for a few days, but still here. I think I'll do the clone master alchemist. Not sure how its going to work, but I'd like to make him battle viable and effectively (if not already via discovery) immortal. Ill need to play with it, but that's the idea.
Im leaning heavily towards gnome clone master/ saboteur archetype. He'd not be a front line combatant, but instead a skill monkey type. I may need to take a level or two of rogue, but we'll see.
Eben, I just don't know. I'm not entirely sure if I'm cool with randomly switching between characters like that.
Dm's call, but I'd also vote no on that idea. It's just too wonky.
I've been moving for a few days, but still here. I think I'll do the clone master alchemist. Not sure how its going to work, but I'd like to make him battle viable and effectively (if not already via discovery) immortal. Ill need to play with it, but that's the idea.Im leaning heavily towards gnome clone master/ saboteur archetype. He'd not be a front line combatant, but instead a skill monkey type. I may need to take a level or two of rogue, but we'll see.
Makes sense, Alchemists have Int as their casting stat. Also, if you're leaning to take a level or two in rogue for the sneak attack, I think I remember seeing an archetype that gives that to the alchemist instead of bombs. Here's the link if you're interested.
Makes sense, Alchemists have Int as their casting stat. Also, if you're leaning to take a level or two in rogue for the sneak attack, I think I remember seeing an archetype that gives that to the alchemist instead of bombs. Here's the link if you're interested.I've been moving for a few days, but still here. I think I'll do the clone master alchemist. Not sure how its going to work, but I'd like to make him battle viable and effectively (if not already via discovery) immortal. Ill need to play with it, but that's the idea.Im leaning heavily towards gnome clone master/ saboteur archetype. He'd not be a front line combatant, but instead a skill monkey type. I may need to take a level or two of rogue, but we'll see.
It's not for sneak attack. It's for trap sense and the skill bonuses. Technically the vivisectionist and clone master don't stack as they both alter the bomb feature. I need DM approval and even then the sneak damage wouldn't be terribly impressive for 20th level characters. I probably won't be a front line kind of character anyway. Ill have to think of something creative to do in combat. Perhaps ill have a simulacra brute to possess or something. I haven't figured all that out just yet.
I think I see what you're going for. The crypt breaker archetype would've been perfect if you didn't have to alter your bombs for clone master.
Eben, I just don't know. I'm not entirely sure if I'm cool with randomly switching between characters like that.Dm's call, but I'd also vote no on that idea. It's just too wonky.
Fair enough. With two votes against, I'll just not sweat it. Consider the idea retracted. IF I come up with something worth playing, I'll pipe up.
it does kinda sound like gestalt, but better than, since you want to switch ability scores too. Now you said that you couldn't buff as the bard then switch.
So does that mean that any buffs on you stop or are suppressed during a switch? What about negative effects? Why one and not the other?
As for monster's I'm cool with using CR/HD max at 25. Forget that crap about HD determining wealth. It's total CR/HD
well, nobody really seems comfortable with it, so let's simply not sweat it. I don't want to push a concept people aren't really behind.
I simply don't understand CR, I guess. My bad.
it does kinda sound like gestalt, but better than, since you want to switch ability scores too. Now you said that you couldn't buff as the bard then switch.
So does that mean that any buffs on you stop or are suppressed during a switch? What about negative effects? Why one and not the other?
As for monster's I'm cool with using CR/HD max at 25. Forget that crap about HD determining wealth. It's total CR/HD
So to determine wealth I use whichever number is higher? Or are you proposing we combine CR+HD and then use that to determine wealth?
I think that the total CR and HD should come out to 25 at that rate. And LM calculated it to be somewhere in the vicinity of 1.505 million, if I'm right.
But it would be nice to get some official word from a GM about this.
would it be possible to get all the character creation mechanics on one post so it is easier to follow. As I just joined this thread I am not clear on all the rules for character creation. I know level 25 but that is it.
I am thinking of a half elf brood master. I do have one question about combining archetypes which is this. Would the GM be ok with me combining the wild-caller archetype with brood master. Wild-caller changes the eidolon ability and brood master replaces it eidolon brood but there isn't any overlap between the changes to the ability.
I think in that case, it's still not allowed.
OH, man! you guys are such hard-asses! Oh, no, youcant' break all the rules! Oh, no, you can't play two characters at once. sheesh... :P
(i hope it's obvious i'm kidding)
Nothing's confirmed quite yet. Me and Rizzenmagus differ on a few ideas so we're still working things out.
Thinking of throwing in my hand with a Solar Paladin 3 for a CR of 25.. Ill have him built and posted by tonight..
Thinking of throwing in my hand with a Solar Paladin 3 for a CR of 25.. Ill have him built and posted by tonight..
You do realize that the build rules have not been established yet.
Just curious about character selection. As I said, I would dearly love to be in this game, but I don't want to spend the time building a 25th level PC, only to be turned down.
I believe I have a new concept, but not positive just yet.
Thinking of throwing in my hand with a Solar Paladin 3 for a CR of 25.. Ill have him built and posted by tonight..You do realize that the build rules have not been established yet.
All I need is the point buying sum and the wealth.
Just curious about character selection. As I said, I would dearly love to be in this game, but I don't want to spend the time building a 25th level PC, only to be turned down.
I believe I have a new concept, but not positive just yet.
This is why I invested in Hero Lab. It makes the crunch so much easier. To make show an example, making an ancient silver dragon (minus the treasure horde) is almost too easy. All I have to do is pick is spells and that's about it.
At the moment, Rizzenmagus is leaning more to a 21-23 starting level and working into the higher reaches of epic-itude.
He would also like to disallow psionics and 3PP material.
Honestly, I would much prefer allow everyone to vote for each subject, make it final, then build from there but this might be tough to achieve.
I've already stated what I voted for earlier.
If I recall, Validk, Vixen, and possibly LM voted on 25. Me and Coffee didn't have a preference. Think the same for Eben, but I don't remember.
My current idea would be to run an oracle (Seeker) with around a half-dozen levels in Rogue. I'm just waiting on what's acceptable for templates/CR spread/available races, although I doubt that anyone would mind if I create a drow noble with a reasonable backstory, would they?
I vote for 25, but I'm reasonably flexible. Starting level is not a dealbreaker for me.
I'd like 25, but I'd be fine with starting a bit lower. As a human sorcerer at that point, I'd already have over 50 spells to play with, I could deal.
I've never played epic. 25 sounds awesome to start. :)
I think 25 sounds good. I dont know exactly what I will be playing still waiting for an answer on the archetype question.
If I recall, Validk, Vixen, and possibly LM voted on 25. Me and Coffee didn't have a preference. Think the same for Eben, but I don't remember.
Correct regarding my vote. I can roll with just about anything.
My new concept would also be a sorcerer, but definitely different from acediamond's and in fact would tie in to GMV's PC.
My votes:
21-25th level is fine. Want to be epic, but I don't care just how epic.
I would say anything on the Pfsrd, with GM's final approval. This way, if something just doesn't fit, or they don't understand, etc, it ca be veto'd and players are aware ahead of time.
As far as templates go, I would say up to a certain increase can be taken without a hit to level. My suggestion would be +3, so the Half templates are allowed. After that, you lose actual class levels and such.
Wishes should be allowed, but you need to pay for them. Or maybe just tomes. Its part of being a high level character.
Wealth should be solidly high, but not insane. At least a few million.
25 point buy sounds good to me.
I think that for even levels past 20, we should get +2 to a stat, and odd ones we get two feats.
My new concept would also be a sorcerer, but definitely different from acediamond's and in fact would tie in to GMV's PC.
Would you send me a PM regarding what you have in mind? I am most intrigued.
As for my vote:
Level 25 is what I prefer but willing to compromise down to 21 if needed to get the game off the ground.
@ Herald:
Are we using CR as equivalent class levels?
Wow some 90 posts have gone by since my last one o.O lots of activity ^-^
As I stated before, I am ok with pretty much anything we go with, my character creation comes after I got something to work on :)
No psionics? ok, guess that means no nomad teleporting hours into the future :D (actually he would have teleported into the future on a constant basis... Level 25 would have ment he could teleport a whole day into the future, as an immediate action or teleport 150 feet as a 5-foot step every round ;D)
I just got back from a weekend wedding so I'm rather dead on my feet. I'll get in touch with Rizzenmagus when I feel human again. Feel free to keep posting ideas and wants.
A wedding eh? Why I was at one this saturday as well! Does the name Jenessa ring a bell?
I have to admit that I do like the idea of the use of templates. Some of my ideas do involve using those wonderful concepts...
I saw other peeps making monster race stuff, so i figured was cool.. Always wanted to play a Solar..
I vote start at a CR 25, 25 point buy for normal races, normal stat mods for monsters +level ups points etc..
Progression wise i say keep it the same.. +1 feat at odds, +1 ability score every 4 levels.. I say let spellcasters have higher level spell slots at the same progression, but only allow metamagic spells to be used in them.. Up to 14th level, so quicken 9th could happen.. Saves and BAB continue with normal class progression..
Wealth just progress the normal WBL chart for a 25th level guy..
This is my current build for inspection.. Info in his profile..
They do have rules for spellcasters and higher level slots on the character advancement page of pfsrd already.
For templates and creatures with CR over HD.
What does the group think about allowing the 'buy-off' of some of that CR?
Like 1 per 5 levels, up to 4 total? (This is inline with the custom race suggestion for APL)
So, if I understand it correctly, we could have up to 4 CR in templates without using levels?
That's my suggestion, yes.
Has anyone heard from Rizzen?
I haven't heard from him in a little bit. He has PMed me twice so far but not recently.
If I get no word back I'll make the decisions myself.
So after reading this thread I got the idea of building an insanely high strength character and seeing what kind of hijinks I can get up to with lifting and sundering and such :)
I figure playing a druid or barbarian or possibly alchemist would be a good idea :)
@Gobo - I know you didn't get to play your barbarian in "The Ataxic War". You could make him level 25 for some truly ridiculous DPR.
I will be playing a half-elf wild caller. By taking the extra evolution feat 5x, taking the half-elf favored class bonus every level, the wild caller bonus, and being level 25, my eidolon has 49 evolution points.