I second the date thing. Hopefully I can get my laptop working by it.
who have his character complete (or almost complete)?
Ihave to choose some orisons and th stats for a mount (for my only level in cavalier :p)
maybe we can start some fights
I propose
Meredith Vs Marcus Ironskin
:p
who have his character complete (or almost complete)?
Ihave to choose some orisons and th stats for a mount (for my only level in cavalier :p)
maybe we can start some fights
I propose
Meredith Vs Marcus Ironskin
:p
Well, I have a nearly complete version of the character who just needs to spend some money on mundane items, and a far-from-complete version who is in the process of squeezing in a crafting feat and as much new treasure as possible. That version probably won't be ready until Saturday night.
I'd propose Sunday for a start time.
Speaking of a build optimized for this contest...
I really should have used Ezra's Inquisitor or Magus Build.
My character is pretty much done, with a bit of contingency based on what feats we are allowed/not allowed. Wouldn't be too hard to switch things around based on that though.
Mine I just need to update her Equipment. I have an entire Stat-Block for her even.
Complete with Picture.
NOTE: This is an "Unofficial" Statblock.
Do what?
Regarding the debate on the use of bestiary feats, I think that bestiary 1 should be allowed
I believe that we should use them. Some of the books that are allowed reference bestiary one.
However, I think that we shouldn't allow flyby attack, as it is unbalancing, because it allows 2 standard actions in a turn. Ban it, just like leadership. At a 1 feat cost, I think it is OP
Regarding the debate on the use of bestiary feats, I think that bestiary 1 should be allowed
I believe that we should use them. Some of the books that are allowed reference bestiary one.
However, I think that we shouldn't allow flyby attack, as it is unbalancing, because it allows 2 standard actions in a turn. Ban it, just like leadership. At a 1 feat cost, I think it is OP
......
Either I've been using that feat wrong for years, or it desperately needs errata. It's contradictory as currently written.
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Help me through your point buy, Ashe: If you put 2 pts in STR, -4 in DEX, 0 in CON, 7 in INT, 7 in WIS and 13 in CHA, I come up with an aasimar strength of 11(12) and a wisdom of 18 instead of 20, but otherwise, all the numbers are coming out right. (Will dropping by 1 appropriately.) How did you get your current configuration?
Also, you can't get Immortal Spark and Incorruptible both. I recommend dropping Immortal Spark, since the GM recently ruled you can't use the aging rules (since they are an optional rule).
Varrel is ready for play. I'll be interested to see if he survives a few rounds.
Besides swapping Power attack for craft wonderous item (which only netted me +2 Int, +1 AC, Boots of Speed and +1 to saves), a Little less damage but a fair trade.
So getting the Boots (free action haste) for PA was worth it.
Marcus and Meredith scare me.
yeah I know about Imortal spark, I made the comment last night I would be adjusting today since age rules were not being used, no biggy. And the wand of bestow grace is 6000gp because it is creatd by a paladin, it comes from the palading/ranger chart for wands
I have some adjustments to make now that Crafting has been ruled on. Should be able to have it all updated by the end of the night though.
Chaiboy, I have a question. How do you rule on Alchemist levels counting towards CL requirements for crafting feats? Some say they count and others say they don't, what is it for this game?
This interests me as well.
Stats adjusted, but yeah you guys are right I would never play a character like this. My friends and I do an arena style play when new material is released. Where we do builds like this and we see how many CR's we can go throgh befoe dying. So we start at level 1 sometimes higher and then start with the same CR that we are level. It works best with 5 people as we have one run the encounter, then we rotate. we advance the CR by 1 each time and see how high we go with the builds at each level, we min max it to figure out what we may or may not use in our games. Its our way of playtesting. When we die we level and start again. So yeah Syth's arent allowed in our group, Now I see why, the min maxing can be pretty rediculous on it.
|
Regarding the debate on the use of bestiary feats, I think that bestiary 1 should be allowed
I believe that we should use them. Some of the books that are allowed reference bestiary one.
However, I think that we shouldn't allow flyby attack, as it is unbalancing, because it allows 2 standard actions in a turn. Ban it, just like leadership. At a 1 feat cost, I think it is OP
All the bestiaries are out. just the books listed. I'll discuss what is in those books but we are not adding any other books. Please find a way to emulate any of the powers you wanted from those feats. But flyby, improved natural armor etc can all be emulated with haste or protection items or other items and some tweaking. For this game lets stick the books listed and find ways around missing races, classes, spells, feats etc.
I'm cool with what we have so far, but if everything goes well, I would love to see another tournament with the book list expanded. Especially if it includes Paths of Prestige.
|
Chaiboy, I have a question. How do you rule on Alchemist levels counting towards CL requirements for crafting feats? Some say they count and others say they don't, what is it for this game?I will have to check. which feat are you looking to get?
Craft Wondrous Items as well as Craft Magic Arms and Armor.
|
|
Chaiboy, I have a question. How do you rule on Alchemist levels counting towards CL requirements for crafting feats? Some say they count and others say they don't, what is it for this game?
the only craft feat i am confident they can get is craft potion. their level would count for CL of that feat. the rest i am still looking up and will come back with a ruling once i find better information
Hey Guys, I have a family engagement tonight, but I should have posted my information tomorrow.
Minor update to what RavingDork posted:
The Caster Level under magic items is COMPLETELY ignored, per numerous FAQs. There is however, two things which cannot be gotten around while crafting.
First: You must have the crafting feat.
Second: You must have the minumum crafting level.
The minimum crafting level is minimum caster level to cast the spell that is the prerequisite for the item, OR the minimum caster level to create the magic item effect. (Want a 10 die fireball - must be 10th level).
The DC to craft the magic item is the minimum caster level + 5.
However: if you do not know the spell (and it is available on your spell list) you can craft the item. You add +5 for every prerequisite you are missing.
So for example: Golem X requires Mage Armor, Prot E, Haste, Craft Golem. Sculpting (17).
The sculpting DC to make Golem X is DC 22. However, if you don't have Mage Armor known you can replace it by adding 5 to the dc, for a final DC of 27.
Now, the rest is somewhat subjective.
Some items are meant to require both divine and arcane crafters - for example many golems. The spell requirements list requirements for both casters.
The rules actually have a section on coordinating spell casters around the idea of multiple classes participating.
Some people promulgate that one can replace a (non class) spell just like any other spell.
I don't believe thats RAW or RAI.
Historically, each class had items only they could craft. Mages could not make cleric items and vice versa. And like I said, the rules have sections about coordinated casting which wouldn't exist if cross class crafting were intended.
Personally, I believe that RAW is that you need to have the other class to make these multi-class items, and they are therefore not eligible to be crafted in the arena.
*IF* you believe that you can replace the prerequisite (other class spell) under the wording of you can replace any component by increase the DC by 5, then you must abide that for EVERY element you are missing you must increase the DC by 5. So if you are a mage and a prerequisite for an item is Cleric Spell Level 3 - you are missing the SPELL and the Alternate class for a total DC increase of 10.
|
|
To be honest, I was surprised that you didn't include the Bestiary feats in the first place.
Well, at least you're being decisive. Also, what other books? Were people asking about 3rd-party products (which are notorious for balance issues), or about Golarion campaign setting books? That's about all that's left after the ones you listed.
I don't remember the stuff people wanted to add. But it would have added 4-5 other books. Once we get through this one i'll happily take requests for which books to allow. Hell I would have loved to have seen some psionics or monsters mixed in but as this is the first arena match I thought it best to get the core rules hammered out, then we can expand it. With just the few books being used there are already a ton of rules that had to be clarified.
Nicos, Perhaps you should examine the controversy around Lunge. Unless this was recently Faq'd this is a feat without any benefit.
Varrel,
Wayang Spell Hunter is not in approved sources, right?
As I posted before, the DC to craft a jingasa is minimum in the 30's so you can't self craft that.
The decision on whether you can cross craft (amulet of natural armor) I don't believe is craftable, but I've explained how I see it and will defer to chai.
The same issue applies to Bracers of the falcon
As far as I know, cracked, burned out etc ioun stones are from seeker of secrets and hence are not legal
Mudball is a goblin only spell.
Varrel,
Wayang Spell Hunter is not in approved sources, right?
As I posted before, the DC to craft a jingasa is minimum in the 30's so you can't self craft that.
The decision on whether you can cross craft (amulet of natural armor) I don't believe is craftable, but I've explained how I see it and will defer to chai.
The same issue applies to Bracers of the falcon
As far as I know, cracked, burned out etc ioun stones are from seeker of secrets and hence are not legal
Mudball is a goblin only spell.
Thanks, I'll sort it out soon. Off to work now.
|
|
Second: You must have the minumum crafting level.
The minimum crafting level is minimum caster level to cast the spell that is the prerequisite for the item, OR the minimum caster level to create the magic item effect. (Want a 10 die fireball - must be 10th level).
This is incorrect. You only need the appropriate feat to craft the item (not true for potions, scrolls, staves, ect.). However, some items (Magic Arms and Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, ect) require a minimum level to craft the item, in which case you cannot bypass these requirements with a simple +5 to the DC of the item. Otherwise, you can craft any magic item with just the feat and quite a few increases to the DC.
This is incorrect. You only need the appropriate feat to craft the item (not true for potions, scrolls, staves, ect.). However, some items (Magic Arms and Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, ect) require a minimum level to craft the item, in which case you cannot bypass these requirements with a simple +5 to the DC of the item. Otherwise, you can craft any magic item with just the feat and quite a few increases to the DC.
Heres the FAQ:
A: (Official FAQ 8/18/2010) Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
This goes to the point I was trying to make, sometimes the minimum caster level is set by item effects. Sometimes its set by prerequisites......
A: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell but not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the item itself. In this case, the creator's caster level must be as high as the item's caster level (and prerequisites may effectively put a higher minimum on the creator's level).
So, using the Belt of giants strength - it requires a mage level 3 to cast the spell- so as under the second point, that becomes the minimum casting level.
That gives a DC to create of 8.
jingasa of the fortunate soldier has moment of prescience as one of its prerequisites - an 8th level spell. Therefore the DC to create if all other requirements are met is 22.
On Flyby Attack: That actually is a bit of odd wording, but I really doubt that it gives a second standard action.
I'm pretty sure it is supposed to basically be using a move and standard together. It just gives more versatility, because a player (or monster) can move some distance, use their standard action, then move the rest of their distance.
@ chaiboy: Also, definitely can't be imitated with haste. Like I said, unless I interpreted it wrong, it's basically for making... well, flyby attacks. Basically full round action to move in, use standard, move out. It's kind of like a charge except no double move distance, you use your regular movement, and you don't need to use an attack, you just can use any standard action. At least, that's how I've always thought it worked.
But, if we're not using bestiary feats, then it doesn't really matter.
Edit: @ cp, that's the thing about Pearl of Power
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be able to cast spells of the spell level to be recalled;
Otherwise, the relevant stuff is just in Magic Item Creation from what I understand.
The DC to create a magic item is 5 + the caster level for the item. Failing this check means that the item does not function and the materials and time are wasted. Failing this check by 5 or more results in a cursed item (see Cursed Items for more information).
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.
That said, I haven't really dealt with item crafting much before, so I could be wrong.
To my knowledge, alchemists can only brew potions unless they invest in Master Craftsman.
This is incorrect.Second: You must have the minumum crafting level.
The minimum crafting level is minimum caster level to cast the spell that is the prerequisite for the item, OR the minimum caster level to create the magic item effect. (Want a 10 die fireball - must be 10th level).
Ah, beat me to it.
If we are going to post FAQ entries, let's post them in full, context and all.
Pearl of Power: What is the caster level required to create this item?
Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
However, it makes sense that the minimum caster level of the pearl is the minimum caster level necessary to cast spells of that level--it would be strange for a 2nd-level pearl to be CL 1st.
For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
—Sean K Reynolds, 08/18/10
Note that this is all in the context of pearls of power, and similar items like them, such as boro beads. For the most part, it doesn't apply at all to most magical items.
However, some items (Magic Arms and Armor, a Cloak of Resistance, ect) require a minimum level to craft the item, in which case you cannot bypass these requirements with a simple +5 to the DC of the item.
With the exception of constructs, I don't believe this to be true. There are absolutely no limitations on which Requirements you can forgo by adding +5 to the DC (the sole exception being constructs, since Ultimate Magic specifically calls them out).
If you were right, then no one in this competition could possibly craft ioun stones.
|
|
So, using the Belt of giants strength - it requires a mage level 3 to cast the spell- so as under the second point, that becomes the minimum casting level.That gives a DC to create of 8.
Again, you are incorrect. The DC to create a Belt of Giant's Strength is 13, 5+CL 8 as given in the items description. The listed CL, which is not in the requirements section, is an arbitrary number that sets the DC to craft the item.There is ONLY a minimum caster requirement if it is listed under the Construction Requirements.
Using your example of the Pearl of Power, there is a stipulation in the Construction Requirements that you must be able to cast a spell of that given level. It is a unique requirement that is spelled out in the Construction Requirements of ONE item, no where else. Otherwise, by your logic, only individuals with a CL of 17 could craft a 1st level Pearl of Power because that is the listed CL for the item.
A: (Official FAQ 8/18/2010) Though the listed Caster Level for a pearl of power is 17th, that caster level is not part of the Requirements listing for that item. Therefore, the only caster level requirement for a pearl of power is the character has to be able to cast spells of the desired level.
Again, looking at the bolded area, if it is not listed under the requirements section it is not a requirement. And if there is a spell that you cannot cast in the requirements, take the +5 DC and walk away. You do not need to be a certain caster level unless an item calls for you to be so under the Construction Requirements.
|
|
With the exception of constructs, I don't believe this to be true. There are absolutely no limitations on which Requirements you can forgo by adding +5 to the DC (the sole exception being constructs, since Ultimate Magic specifically calls them out).If you were right, then no one in this competition could possibly craft ioun stones.
You know, I believe you are right about that. I don't know why I thought otherwise.
|
|
Here is the ruling i am thinking of for Alchemist. Although it applies to anyone who crafts.
I feel if Master Craftsman allows a non magic user class to learn crafting feats then the alchemist can use his class levels for purposes of buying crafting feats.
RAW wise there is nothing in the rules that says a magic using class CAN'T buy this feat so if you dipped into Sorcerer (CL2) then did rogue (CL9) you could use MC and a 11th rank craft(Lawn ornaments) skill to qualify for the CL of a crafting feat.
let me hear any feedback on this.
|
|
You know, I believe you are right about that. I don't know why I thought otherwise.
With the exception of constructs, I don't believe this to be true. There are absolutely no limitations on which Requirements you can forgo by adding +5 to the DC (the sole exception being constructs, since Ultimate Magic specifically calls them out).If you were right, then no one in this competition could possibly craft ioun stones.
for purposes of this competition you can forgo any requirement by taking a +5DC. The only requirement that MUST be met is the appropriate crafting feat.
|
|
Here is the ruling i am thinking of for Alchemist. Although it applies to anyone who crafts.
I feel if Master Craftsman allows a non magic user class to learn crafting feats then the alchemist can use his class levels for purposes of buying crafting feats.
RAW wise there is nothing in the rules that says a magic using class CAN'T buy this feat so if you dipped into Sorcerer (CL2) then did rogue (CL9) you could use MC and a 11th rank craft(Lawn ornaments) skill to qualify for the CL of a crafting feat.
let me hear any feedback on this.
Well I approve, but then again I might be somewhat biased.
Here is the ruling i am thinking of for Alchemist. Although it applies to anyone who crafts.
I feel if Master Craftsman allows a non magic user class to learn crafting feats then the alchemist can use his class levels for purposes of buying crafting feats.
RAW wise there is nothing in the rules that says a magic using class CAN'T buy this feat so if you dipped into Sorcerer (CL2) then did rogue (CL9) you could use MC and a 11th rank craft(Lawn ornaments) skill to qualify for the CL of a crafting feat.
let me hear any feedback on this.
I don't fully understand your meaning.
Technically, your lawn ornament magic crafter could do all that without any levels of sorcerer.
|
|
I'm cool with what we have so far, but if everything goes well, I would love to see another tournament with the book list expanded. Especially if it includes Paths of Prestige.
The way things are going I am sure the list will expand. almost every major issue has been hammered out. I'm sure once we hit the battlefields that there will be a few more. but this entire body of rules will set the core for us to expand on. And it would be great to hunt down some official word on some of the issues as we go on. Charge vs interrupts and alchemist and crafting for example.
just got confirmation.... Alchemists CAN get craft feats.
JAMES JACOB:
An alchemist CAN take item creation feats, in any event. When an item calls for a spell prerequisite, the alchemist simply substitutes his extract of the same name. This does mean that, other than potions, there's a lot of specific items an alchemist won't qualify for, so it might be a good idea to max out your Spellcraft skill for all the requirements you'll be missing...
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mz2b?How-does-the-alchemist-use-discoveries-th at#4
well that's one less thing to worry about
|
|
I'm cool with what we have so far, but if everything goes well, I would love to see another tournament with the book list expanded. Especially if it includes Paths of Prestige.The way things are going I am sure the list will expand. almost every major issue has been hammered out. I'm sure once we hit the battlefields that there will be a few more. but this entire body of rules will set the core for us to expand on. And it would be great to hunt down some official word on some of the issues as we go on. Charge vs interrupts and alchemist and crafting for example.
just got confirmation.... Alchemists CAN get craft feats.
JAMES JACOB:
An alchemist CAN take item creation feats, in any event. When an item calls for a spell prerequisite, the alchemist simply substitutes his extract of the same name. This does mean that, other than potions, there's a lot of specific items an alchemist won't qualify for, so it might be a good idea to max out your Spellcraft skill for all the requirements you'll be missing...http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2mz2b?How-does-the-alchemist-use-discoveries-th at#4
well that's one less thing to worry about
Well now I double approve of your decision!
|
|
RAW wise there is nothing in the rules that says a magic using class CAN'T buy this feat so if you dipped into Sorcerer (CL2) then did rogue (CL9) you could use MC and a 11th rank craft(Lawn ornaments) skill to qualify for the CL of a crafting feat.let me hear any feedback on this.
I don't fully understand your meaning.
Technically, your lawn ornament magic crafter could do all that without any levels of sorcerer.
true. but if you dipped into a spell caster for some feature of the class such as being a fey blooded sorcerer and also wanted to craft items. you could take the feat and skill and skip the lack of level for getting the feats. It is not a rule question it is just something i noticed while digging through all the rules.
Either James is flat-out wrong, or the alchemist REALLY needs errata. They're called out specifically as not being spellcasters, the class says they don't qualify for Brew Potion on their own, and the prerequisite for item creation feats is spellcaster level X (which means Alchemists can't typically take them).
Having said that, I will abide by Chaiboy's ruling should he stick with it.
true. but if you dipped into a spell caster for some feature of the class such as being a fey blooded sorcerer and also wanted to craft items. you could take the feat and skill and skip the lack of level for getting the feats. It is not a rule question it is just something i noticed while digging through all the rules.
Still not sure that I follow. The only think multiclassing into a spellcasting class would get you is a caster level, allowing you to get crafting feats without Master Craftsman. It would also allow you to craft using a single skill (Spellcraft) rather than several (Craft/Profession).
Is that kind of what you were getting at?
Using your example of the Pearl of Power, there is a stipulation in the Construction Requirements that you must be able to cast a spell of that given level. It is a unique requirement that is spelled out in the Construction Requirements of ONE item, no where else. Otherwise, by your logic, only individuals with a CL of 17 could craft a 1st level Pearl of Power because that is the listed CL for the item.
Ioun stones too: "Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; "
Again, looking at the bolded area, if it is not listed under the requirements section it is not a requirement. And if there is a spell that you cannot cast in the requirements, take the +5 DC and walk away. You do not need to be a certain caster level unless an item calls for you to be so under the Construction Requirements.
And even if you aren't the right caster level, you can ignore that too:
The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.
There's nothing special about "creator must be..." that's different from requiring a spell.
See the end of that FAQ:
He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement
|
|
@ chaiboy: Also, definitely can't be imitated with haste. Like I said, unless I interpreted it wrong, it's basically for making... well, flyby attacks. Basically full round action to move in, use standard, move out. It's kind of like a charge except no double move distance, you use your regular movement, and you don't need to use an attack, you just can use any standard action. At least, that's how I've always thought it worked.
i'll have to look this up and see if there is anything on it. the wording in the book is completely useless. it says two different things.
in the mean time i'll add it to a list of rule explanations I am beginning to compile for the next arena challenge
|
|
Either James is flat-out wrong, or the alchemist REALLY needs errata. They're called out specifically as not being spellcasters, the class says they don't qualify for Brew Potion on their own, and the prerequisite for item creation feats is spellcaster level X (which means Alchemists can't typically take them).
Having said that, I will abide by Chaiboy's ruling should he stick with it.
true. but if you dipped into a spell caster for some feature of the class such as being a fey blooded sorcerer and also wanted to craft items. you could take the feat and skill and skip the lack of level for getting the feats. It is not a rule question it is just something i noticed while digging through all the rules.Still not sure that I follow. The only think multiclassing into a spellcasting class would get you is a caster level, allowing you to get crafting feats without Master Craftsman. It would also allow you to craft using a single skill (Spellcraft) rather than several (Craft/Profession).
Is that kind of what you were getting at?
Where does it say that an Alchemist doesn't have a Caster Level? As for the Brew Potion, it has a CL requirement of 3, meaning that an alchemist would normally have to be 3rd level to get it. The class feature gives it to them at level 1, when they typically wouldn't be able to get it.
I've updated Meredith.
i'll have to look this up and see if there is anything on it. the wording in the book is completely useless. it says two different things.
Bobson started a thread on it, and I linked a few other things I found into that if you want to check it out. It seems that it does work pretty much like a full round action, the wording is just bizarre as hell.
I would like this to be more who is the stronger instead who is best crafter :/
I would like this to be more who is the stronger instead who is best crafter :/
Many a mythic hero were heroic in no small part due to their gear. Arthur's Excalibur, Zeus' lightning bolt, Bard's arrow, etc. I see no reason why this competition would be any different.
Besides, changing it now would only delay things further. Please leave your argument for future arena battles.