Hmm, Enchantment-Based Casters are going to be pretty potent...
P.S.: On my Profile I posted up the temporary rules page for my campaign.
Aw, no Paths of Prestige makes me sad.
Aw, no Paths of Prestige makes me sad.Hmm, Enchantment-Based Casters are going to be pretty potent...
P.S.: On my Profile I posted up the temporary rules page for my campaign.
Mainly because I don't have it.
Recheck the page though you might like what you read.
P.S.: On my Profile I posted up the temporary rules page for my campaign.
I only had a brief look over it, but you should make a new thread for it when you get the chance. It looks like it could be pretty cool, and I'd probably be up for joining, but this may not be the best place to discuss it :P
P.S.: On my Profile I posted up the temporary rules page for my campaign.I only had a brief look over it, but you should make a new thread for it when you get the chance. It looks like it could be pretty cool, and I'd probably be up for joining, but this may not be the best place to discuss it :P
I will be setting up the thread soon. As soon as I figure out how to set-up an Obsidian Portal Page...
EDIT: Arena Of The Gods the thread is up.
P.S.: On my Profile I posted up the temporary rules page for my campaign.I only had a brief look over it, but you should make a new thread for it when you get the chance. It looks like it could be pretty cool, and I'd probably be up for joining, but this may not be the best place to discuss it :PI will be setting up the thread soon. As soon as I figure out how to set-up an Obsidian Portal Page...
EDIT: Arena Of The Gods the thread is up.
Out of curiosity, why aren't you using the Paizo forums?
I am if you look there is a link to the Paizo Forums.
I am using that page for Maps and such.
'Tis done. I´m ready to face my Victi...ahem "Opponents" now.
Character updated to reflect the crafting build. I'm falling asleep as I post this, so it's not cleaned up to something useable - just raw Hero Lab output. I'll try to make it nicer in the morning. Crafting is below the line at the bottom, and then the old character is below that.
Ravingdork, I'd appreciate it if you could double check my crafting and let me know if anything should have had a higher DC.
Yeah would be good If chaiboy could take a last look over the Characters, I changed some gear and I am not sure about the crafting either.And is Mathpro still in?
Added a "Backstory" :)
Ok, character sheet cleaned up. I won't guarantee that this is final (I'd still like to work things to afford a monk's belt), but at this point I'm ready to go whenever we start.
Side note: I took Profession (shepherd) as my crafting skill just because nothing said I couldn't, and I like the absurdity of it.
Wondrous Items just require "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check." with "applicable" defined nowhere. Master Craftsman just says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." If anyone objects, I'll swap it out for Profession (merchant) which can perfectly explain "crafting" anything.
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Ok, character sheet cleaned up. I won't guarantee that this is final (I'd still like to work things to afford a monk's belt), but at this point I'm ready to go whenever we start.
Side note: I took Profession (shepherd) as my crafting skill just because nothing said I couldn't, and I like the absurdity of it.
Wondrous Items just require "Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check." with "applicable" defined nowhere. Master Craftsman just says "You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item." If anyone objects, I'll swap it out for Profession (merchant) which can perfectly explain "crafting" anything.
I object because you could have come up with something more absurd...
Craft(Shoes)
Which craft/profession skills can be used on which items is defined. It's in the Magic Item Crafting section of the rules (shown here). Just scroll down through each section. If a skill isn't listed, it's not likely to do you any good.
ALL: Spellcraft
ARMOR: Craft (armor)
WEAPONS: Craft (bows) (for magic bows and arrows), or Craft (weapons) (for all other weapons)
POTIONS: Craft (alchemy)
RINGS: Craft (jewelry)
RODS: Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Craft (weapons)
SCROLLS: Craft (calligraphy), or Profession (scribe)
STAVES: Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter)
WANDS: Craft (jewelry), Craft (sculptures), or Profession (woodcutter)
WONDROUS ITEMS: applicable Craft or Profession skill check
All of the Craft skills listed in the game are alchemy, armor, baskets, books, bows, calligraphy, carpentry, cloth, clothing, glass, jewelry, leather, locks, paintings, pottery, sculptures, ships, shoes, stonemasonry, traps, and weapons.
All of the Profession skills listed in the game are architect, baker, barrister, brewer, butcher, clerk, cook, courtesan, driver, engineer, farmer, fisherman, gambler, gardener, herbalist, innkeeper, librarian, merchant, midwife, miller, miner, porter, sailor, scribe, shepherd, stable master, soldier, tanner, trapper, and woodcutter.
If you want a different Craft or Profession skill not on those lists, you best clear it with the GM first.
Also, shoes are not absurd. They are a big deal.
I know shoes aren't absurd. But it is when you have a Female Elf Barbarian who takes Master Craftsman[Craft(Shoes)] and Craft Wondrous Items strictly to make a whole bunch of Magic Shoes.
NOTE: In that campaign I was allowing custom items as long as they worked with me to make them.
Character updated to reflect the crafting build. I'm falling asleep as I post this, so it's not cleaned up to something useable - just raw Hero Lab output. I'll try to make it nicer in the morning. Crafting is below the line at the bottom, and then the old character is below that.
Ravingdork, I'd appreciate it if you could double check my crafting and let me know if anything should have had a higher DC.
Urdavan:
Various devices have various skill required for crafting. You must use the appropriate skill for the appropriate item. You cannot use one skill for all items.
Second, I believe that Chai boy elected to keep the DC penalties for missing classes.
DC = 17 (Moment of Prescience DC) +5 for not having MoP,+ 5 for not having divine favor + 5 to craft, and +5 for not having cleric class.
@Perfect_Tommy: Master Craftsman is being used therefore he can use a single Craft or Profession to craft the items.
Ah, fair enough.
However, there is nothing that allows any of us to bypass the minimum caster level specified in the ioun stones of caster level 12. So ioun stones cannot be crafted by anyone.
I haven't reviewed the build thoroughly, but it looks to me as the jingasa breaks down as not possible.
DC = 17 for 8th level spell.
+5 for not having spell.
+5 for not having divine favor
+ 5 for not having coordinating class (cleric/mage)
+5 to craft
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DC = 37.
Oh, and again, the minimum caster level is set by the prerequisites for the spell. Moment of Prescience, 8th level spell. The minimum caster level is 17. Not possible to craft.
Well, I had a great time being built and watching all of the discussions, but I must be moving on. Good luck to the other contestants.
@ Perfect Tommy: I don't think I have any Ioun stones on this guy but hasn't it been specified that if you don't meet a requirement, you just add 5 to the check? Ioun stones shouldn't work any differently, should they?
5(Base) + 12(CL) + 5(if you don't meet the 12th level requirement) = 17 or 22
Since none of us can be 12th level casters, that means they will all need a DC of 22.
As for the DC of a jingasa, that's not quite broken down correctly either.
5(Base) + 15(CL) + 5(if you don't have divine favor) + 5(if you don't have moment of prescience) = 20, 25, or 30
Depending on what spells you are missing.
Darkwolf has the right of it.
Which craft/profession skills can be used on which items is defined. It's in the Magic Item Crafting section of the rules (shown here). Just scroll down through each section. If a skill isn't listed, it's not likely to do you any good.
...
WONDROUS ITEMS: applicable Craft or Profession skill check
I don't see any reason to believe that "shepherd" is not a valid profession check for crafting wondrous items, based on that. Everything else, yes it's not valid. Wondrous items, no. Which was my point. Wondrous items just say "applicable" with no definition of what "applicable" means.
I haven't reviewed the build thoroughly, but it looks to me as the jingasa breaks down as not possible.DC = 17 for 8th level spell.
+5 for not having spell.
+5 for not having divine favor
+ 5 for not having coordinating class (cleric/mage)
+5 to craft
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DC = 37.Oh, and again, the minimum caster level is set by the prerequisites for the spell. Moment of Prescience, 8th level spell. The minimum caster level is 17. Not possible to craft.
You get 8th level spells at caster level 15. And I have no idea what you mean by "coordinating class". The DC to make a Jingasa is 5 (base) + 15 (minimum caster level) + 5 (no divine favor) + 5 (no moment of prescience) = 30. Which is exactly my take-10 result (after crafting the wisdom booster).
There's also a shortcut to looking up each spell and what level it is - look at the listed CL for the item. It may be higher than the minimum it needs to be, but it will never be lower. If you can craft it at 5 + CL + 5*requirements, then you can stop looking. The Jinsaga's listed at 15, so you know that (barring any editing errors) a 15th level crafter can make it.
By "coordinating class" he is referring to not having a class that has the spell on your spell list. In short, he's doubling up the DC with arbitrary logic.
(And he's wrong of course.)
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Oh, and again, the minimum caster level is set by the prerequisites for the spell. Moment of Prescience, 8th level spell. The minimum caster level is 17. Not possible to craft.
Again, CL is NOT a requirement to craft items unless it is listed under the crafting requirements for an item. Only items listed under the crafting requirements are requirements, if it doesn't state that you have to be divine caster then that is not a requirement. Then when it is listed it can bypassed by a simple +5 to the DC of the item. Finally, this is a moot point because Chaiboy has made a ruling and it is part of this game.
Which way did he rule again, PDKM?
Well, I had a great time being built and watching all of the discussions, but I must be moving on. Good luck to the other contestants.Why are you leaving us Goblin Gus?
Probably the sudden lack of momentum. I'm not going anywhere yet, but I would like to get this show on the road. Most people (myself not included) have been done with their characters for 3-4 days now, with nothing happening.
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Probably the sudden lack of momentum. I'm not going anywhere yet, but I would like to get this show on the road. Most people (myself not included) have been done with their characters for 3-4 days now, with nothing happening.Well, I had a great time being built and watching all of the discussions, but I must be moving on. Good luck to the other contestants.Why are you leaving us Goblin Gus?
It did have this crazy momentum that came to a screeching halt. I wonder why?
It did have this crazy momentum that came to a screeching halt. I wonder why?Probably the sudden lack of momentum. I'm not going anywhere yet, but I would like to get this show on the road. Most people (myself not included) have been done with their characters for 3-4 days now, with nothing happening.Well, I had a great time being built and watching all of the discussions, but I must be moving on. Good luck to the other contestants.Why are you leaving us Goblin Gus?
My guess it was just a conflux of poor timing. Things started to slow down as people finished their characters, there wasn't anything else to go start doing with those characters, and another arena opened up. All at the same time.
I'm sure if we get started tomorrow or the day after, most people will still be ready to go, but after that, I'd guess that we'd only get around 8 people who were actually ready to go.
I could be wrong, though. I don't have much PbP experience here, so I'm generalizing from a very small sample set and personal observation.
It did have this crazy momentum that came to a screeching halt. I wonder why?
'Cuz everyone's hanging out in Azaelas's thread now :P
Seriously though, this has slowed down quite a bit. I think it's mostly just waiting for a few last characters now? But that does make it feel rather long for the people who are already done.
Last I heard though, I thought Chaiboy said we'd be getting ready to start soon? Not positive, but I thought it was getting there.
Well, I'm still here in any event.
Sorry :|
I figured we would be able to get through most of this arena before mine started.
It seems most of us are waiting for this to start.
I think it is most have migrated to mine simply to wait for this to start.
If this one doesn't start before mine I will have to retire Ezra's new form to her Dramatis Personae folder on my HDD... :,(
I think it is most have migrated to mine simply to wait for this to start.
Pretty much, at least in my case. Of course, I still have a character to build for yours, and I'm done here, so it feels a little more pressing to pay attention to that, at least until this starts.
I figured. Again I expected us to be around Half way through with this by the time my character submission deadline arrived. And then finished with this by the time my start date arrived...
Still here
Still here
I think most of us are. Let´s wait and see what happens
RD, you can't say that crafting rules are consistent and unequivocal - they simply aren't.
Here are the rules:
Core: For potions, scrolls, and wands, the creator can set the caster level of an item at any number high enough to cast the stored spell and not higher than her own caster level. For other magic items, the caster level is determined by the creator.The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
FAQ:10/10 Crafting pearls of power...For example, a 3rd-level wizard with Craft Wondrous Item can create a 1st-level pearl, with a minimum caster level of 1. He can set the caster level to whatever he wants (assuming he can meet the crafting DC), though the pearl's caster level has no effect on its powers (other than its ability to resist dispel magic). If he wants to make a 2nd-level pearl, the caster level has to be at least 3, as wizards can't cast 2nd-level spells until they reach character level 3. He can even try to make a 3rd-level pearl, though the minimum caster level is 5, and he adds +5 to the DC because he doesn't meet the "able to cast 3rd-level spells" requirement.
It was previously ruled that lacking the specific spell added +5 to the DC. Here, Sean rules that lacking the minimum caster level ALSO adds +5 to the DC.
There is another quote that says that for every element you are missing +5 is added to the DC. As I said in my previous quote if missing a level, and missing a spell, require +5 adjustments it is also reasonable that missing a coordinating class is a +5 adjustment.
Ultimate Magic:
... The DC to craft a construct is 5 + the default caster level of the construct, just like for a magic item. Like when crafting magic items, a creator with a sufficiently high skill bonus may ignore these requirements. Each missing requirement increases the Craft DC by 5. Regardless, the creator must meet all item creation feats and minimum caster level requirements. (see Magic Item Creation).
Under usual pathfinder rules, more recent rules supplant older rules.
The Craft Construct certainly seems to be saying that like for magic item creation the caster must meet the minimum caster level.Ioun Stones have a Minimum Caster Level 12 listed as a prerequisite.
So, under the first and the last rules, the caster must meet the minimum caster levels, and these items would not be eligible for our competition.
Under the second interpretation, maybe not. But even in this case, the jingasa is not eligible.
8th Level spell: means minimum caster level 15 (shouldn't post at 4 am).
Don't have spell: Dc +5. Dont have level dc+5. Don't have divine Favor DC +5. DC to craft is 5 + Spellcraft required or DC 35. And there is still the very reasonable interpretation that is should be 40, due to the lack of the 2md coordinating class.
I've spoken with Chaiboy on this, and I was pretty sure what I was saying was how he ruled. But I will leave it upto him, so we can move past this.
Going forward, I think we can all agree that this area needs to be carefully spelled out.
On a happier note, I'm pleased to announce that MindGene has agreed to provide a full license of their D20Pro software to the winner, and trial versions to all participants.
Thank you Mat Morton & friends over at D20Pro. You can take a look at the software here: http://www.d20pro.com/
MindGene has also expressed interest in helping us out with maps and arenas in the future. More on that as we work out the details with them.
Sweet.
Under the second interpretation, maybe not. But even in this case, the jingasa is not eligible.
8th Level spell: means minimum caster level 15 (shouldn't post at 4 am).
Don't have spell: Dc +5. Dont have level dc+5. Don't have divine Favor DC +5. DC to craft is 5 + Spellcraft required or DC 35. And there is still the very reasonable interpretation that is should be 40, due to the lack of the 2md coordinating class.
There's two problems with your logic.
1) Requiring an 8th level spell is not the same as requiring a 15th level caster. Note the difference between ioun stones and the jingasa:
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 15,000 gp.
Craft Wondrous Item, divine favor, moment of prescience; Cost 2,500 gp.
One of these has a minimum caster level, one doesn't. A 10th level cleric could craft the Jingasa entirely from scrolls, and not take an additional penalty because his caster level was too low - he's meeting all the listed requirements.
2) You still haven't explained where this idea of a "2nd coordinating class" comes from. There's certainly nothing like that in the rules I've seen.
@perfect tommy, awesome I assume you did the leg work to make that happen so thanks. What a cool bonus to go along with this.
Wow, we even have prize support. That's really cool. Makes me hope someone takes the flying fishbowl out before I have to face off against it.
There's two problems with your logic.1) Requiring an 8th level spell is not the same as requiring a 15th level caster. Note the difference between ioun stones and the jingasa:
Craft Wondrous Item, creator must be 12th level; Cost 15,000 gp.Craft Wondrous Item, divine favor, moment of prescience; Cost 2,500 gp....
2) You still haven't explained where this idea of a "2nd coordinating class" comes from. There's certainly nothing like that in the rules I've seen.
Hey Bobson:
Sure, I agree that requiring an 8th level spell is not identical to requiring a 15th level caster.
The wording is this:
The minimum caster level is that which is needed to meet the prerequisites given.
So, the minimum caster level is that which is needed to cast Moment of Prescience; ie, 15th.
This is confirmed in two separate posts iirc, and the construct verbiage: in the pearls example: the requirement is the ability to cast a spell of the level of the pearl. Level three pearl, level three spell required. Minimum casting level set to 5.
In the Giant strength example, the level of spell is 2 (Bull strength) and the minimum caster level was set at 3. The DC to craft was therefore 8.
In my first post about coordinating class I tried to delineate what was rules based (Minimum Caster levels, DC increases for missing elements) and what was extrapolation on my part.
I'd like to differentiate here that we're trying to set rules to run a tournament, and not debate what the RAW are. But if I wasn't clear about that I'll say-- mea culpa.
@perfect tommy, awesome I assume you did the leg work to make that happen so thanks. What a cool bonus to go along with this.
Yep. I did most of the legwork on this part, but Chaiboy and I are actually working real hard, each on different parts of this.
We'd like to see this as a monthly or weekly event where builds like AM Barbarian can test their chops and we can argue the merits of builds in the only place it matters...
In the Arena... Perhaps we should (TM) that... = )
It would be pretty cool to get to try out a bunch of the character builds I've been thinking up. Would you mix up the levels or stay with a standard 11?
Wow, we even have prize support. That's really cool. Makes me hope someone takes the flying fishbowl out before I have to face off against it.
I may pick it up anyways and give the reward copy to one of the runner ups.
Wow, we even have prize support. That's really cool. Makes me hope someone takes the flying fishbowl out before I have to face off against it.I may pick it up anyways and give the reward copy to one of the runner ups.
That would be rather generous of you.
I'm getting antsy for some action. I think people are underestimating my character.
I'm getting antsy for some action. I think people are underestimating my character.
The only thing that I can see you have going for yourself is your ability to hide (particularly with your dust of disappearance which thwarts see invisibility), which makes you hard to target. Aside from that, absolutely nothing seems to stand out about him.
I'd even go so far as to say he's a weak one-trick pony. Once someone finds you, it's pretty much over.