It was not trapped in the circle, because you didn't use the proper circle. Only creatures that are the actual opposing alignment of your circle are actually constrained.
For example, if I cast a magic circle against chaos and call a demon, the demon can't leave the circle because the demon is chaotic. There is no magic circle against neutral, so you really can't use that spell to constrain completely neutral creatures.
Lu is right about the size of the circle, I was wrong - I mixed up radius and diameter again.
You've gotten a pretty good scenario. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, but I am going to tell you that you have to be a whole lot nicer to neutral creatures because you can't constrain them.
It was not trapped in the circle, because you didn't use the proper circle. Only creatures that are the actual opposing alignment of your circle are actually constrained.
For example, if I cast a magic circle against chaos and call a demon, the demon can't leave the circle because the demon is chaotic. There is no magic circle against neutral, so you really can't use that spell to constrain completely neutral creatures.
Lu is right about the size of the circle, I was wrong - I mixed up radius and diameter again.
You've gotten a pretty good scenario. I'm not going to tell you how to do it, but I am going to tell you that you have to be a whole lot nicer to neutral creatures because you can't constrain them.
Humm... I may have to find something with an alignment to blackmail into manual labor. Let me think on it.
You realize these creatures are permanently dead now, right? I suppose perhaps they're not savvy enough to know.
They have four intelligence. Also, they take an average of 70 damage from the fall, which doesn't kill them, and they technically don't take damage from being somewhere sandy, though they're still subject to normal hot-weather rules with penalties for being made of water. With 25 straight health remaining, and taking no more than 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per hour, they might be able to survive.
Six months in captivity for no reward is a steep price. Besides, they don't know how your gangplank works. For all they know, you were just planning to fight them.
They have four intelligence. Also, they take an average of 70 damage from the fall, which doesn't kill them, and they technically don't take damage from being somewhere sandy, though they're still subject to normal hot-weather rules with penalties for being made of water. With 25 straight health remaining, and taking no more than 1d4 points of nonlethal damage per hour, they might be able to survive.
Six months in captivity for no reward is a steep price. Besides, they don't know how your gangplank works. For all they know, you were just planning to fight them.
So they're too stupid to realize their predicament. Great. I'll have to find something smarter and with an alignment access. Let me think on it.
We may need to revisit other plans. This isn't going as well as I hoped.
Let's see if he falls for Lu's trick : )
But yes, in my experience, summoning of outsiders seldom works out as expected :P
I honestly thought "do it or die" would work. Also I failed to take into account neutrality or stupidity of water elementals. This is why I never bother taking points in intimidate. It'll only end in violence, so I just cut out the dice roll.
The elementals can be cowed, although it probably would've been more effective to summon them in the middle of the desert surrounded by fire. Even still they'll want to feel like they've gotten something for their service.
The Marid though, and Genies in general, they're above human intelligence and quite capable, and 100% certain they're superior to us. They expect to be wined and dined before you start asking them for favors. Also even if we frightened him into cooperating, we'd still have to kill him in the end, else we'll have made an immortal extra-planar enemy who can grant our enemies wishes once per year just to spite us. :p
Marids have an int of 14, but the hubris is still a problem. I suspect I'll be cutting this one loose without an agreement.
Spells with instantaneous duration just exist without magic once cast, correct? Fabricate for example. Once you make a thing it's just there. I wonder if Simulacra would work in a similar fashion. If so, I just found the best solution I think.
If not, I say we just go old school and charter a barge (or 6) to carry our goods back up the river to our ship.
Yeah, meant "above average human intelligence". Hard to compete with a wizard on int, even for outsiders like a Balor Lord or Solar.
If we've got bluff enough it might be worth trying to convince him it was a joke and start negotiations anew. Marids are Chaotic enough that he might find it entertaining.
On the other hand, Simulacra are definitely *way* easier to deal with.
Yeah, meant "above average human intelligence". Hard to compete with a wizard on int, even for outsiders like a Balor Lord or Solar.
If we've got bluff enough it might be worth trying to convince him it was a joke and start negotiations anew. Marids are Chaotic enough that he might find it entertaining.
On the other hand, Simulacra are definitely *way* easier to deal with.
"Way" is an understatement. We'd need a few strong (higher the better) ones with a swim speed (higher the better. Preferably low HD to make them cheaper. Then we ride down a river, get the cannons on a barge (or barges) and drag them back up river.
Also, this cant be a new issue for the cannon makers. Surely they have some mechanism for getting their wares out of the city with minimal issue. I think it would be a good idea to get one of us that travels fast to go on ahead and collect some intel. If Simulacra works this may actually be greatly simplified.
I am finding this all highly amusing, if you want to intimidate someone Im fairly good at that, but have no tact and no understanding of non-common. also I now want to call Belor the Lord of Solar lol.
I am finding this all highly amusing, if you want to intimidate someone Im fairly good at that, but have no tact and no understanding of non-common. also I now want to call Belor the Lord of Solar lol.
As a player, i too am highly amused. Sparel the character, however is not. :-)
If I'm being unreasonable or too frustrating, let me know. I'm just trying to make you have to work for your difficult hurdles.
Mostly, it's because the spell was designed to call outsiders, pay them, and then they serve you. When you want to do something different, you have to do extra work.
Also, I'm pretty sure that constructs and simulacra won't work in the wastes for the same reason that the ship won't work - they're fueled/moved by magic. They won't die, or move around, but they'll grind to a halt in a null-magic zone or do some random things in a wild magic zone.
If I'm being unreasonable or too frustrating, let me know. I'm just trying to make you have to work for your difficult hurdles.
Mostly, it's because the spell was designed to call outsiders, pay them, and then they serve you. When you want to do something different, you have to do extra work.
No. No. You're being reasonable. I'm not upset at the way things are going. It's rather amusing actually. It just means we'll have to pursue other options. Frankly, I think we're over thinking this, which is very much in character for Sparel.
One small thing though: The threat of an immediate and swift death should at least give some sort of bonus. I totally get the water elementals being too stupid to know what's going on. No problem. I can see how the Marid would be too arrogant to think i'd actually kill it. However, it should have some sense of self preservation even if it maintains it's arrogance. Though in it's case it can simply planeshift once the circle is broken. Sparel's Charisma rolls have thoroughly sucked. I can totally see this playing out exactly the way it has. Please don't misinterpret Sparel's frustration with mine. I, the player, am enjoying myself.
Also, I'm pretty sure that constructs and simulacra won't work in the wastes for the same reason that the ship won't work - they're fueled/moved by magic. They won't die, or move around, but they'll grind to a halt in a null-magic zone or do some random things in a wild magic zone.
Constructs do. You can't make them in an antimagic zone, but they can be in them. It's spelled out pretty clearly in the Craft Construct section. It's the premise for the "Ultimate security demiplane." The one where a Lich puts his phalactry in a null-magic greater demiplane surrounded by Some sort of Uber-Golems.
Simulacra are not as well documented. It's one of those spells that is subject to interpretation. Ultimately it's up to you.
However, my argument as to why it would work is the duration of Instantaneous. Once created by magic instantaneous spells are no longer sustained by magic. Fabricate for example. Once you make a chair out of some wood it stays a chair even if taken into an antimagic zone.
Simulacra are "real" once created. I know it's weird, but it's one of those corner case spells.
Again, your game your call. However, I think it would probably work.
Well, that makes enough sense to me. It is weird that simulacra are "real creatures" once they're created. My hesitation is that they're made out of snow, but it's totally fine with me for them to work in areas of no magic.
Well, that makes enough sense to me. It is weird that simulacra are "real creatures" once they're created. My hesitation is that they're made out of snow, but it's totally fine with me for them to work in areas of no magic.
I agree. It's weird. There's only so logical magic is going to be.
I can work with that. :-)
You got me to thinking about why Pathfinder removed the Simulacrum requirement for a piece of the creature.
I think because it's so easy to bypass. by the rules "a piece of the creature" has no value therefor is bypassed simply by having Eschew materials or casting blood money.
I'm guessing that the developers figured it was an unnecessary complication easily bypassed anyway.
Just realizing how much I've been posting. I didn't intend to turn this into the Sparel show.
For what it's worth once we get into the Anti-magic zone there's going to be very little I can do to help.
Anyone have ideas on the best simulacrum creatures to make.
I'm thinking Giant eagles to get us into and out of the city.
Or hell, I could make a simulacra elder water elemental. It would only have half the Hit dice, but I wasn't planning on fighting with the thing.
Im fine with your postings Sparel as far as im concerned at some point were all going to have our personal hurdles and so far this is yours, also once in the city i have a feeling that me and Belor will be much better at enticing the local populous to do what we want, or they will have a vampire hunt and we might be f$%+ed.
I'm going on a trip for the next three or four days and I'm not bringing my computer, so I'll be AWOL. I'll be back with posts by Wednesday, I believe.
I'm going on a trip for the next three or four days and I'm not bringing my computer, so I'll be AWOL. I'll be back with posts by Wednesday, I believe.
Ok. Have fun.
I have to do some math, but my plan is to make an elder water elemental simulacrum. It'll be able to ferry us to and from the city at great speed as well as carry barges with the cannons on them to and from the ship. This thing is so fast in the water. When it double moves I sincerely about anything will be able to catch it, much less endanger it.
I'll be gone for 2-3 days without internet, so posts will be sparse from now on : P
I thought I'd leave you with a question to ponder on. How do shapeshifters interact with the mana-wastes?
Tris might be more able then Lu to accompany you - and in any case, she could just wear a (really) wide skirt and hope no-one peaks under : P
I'm pretty sure shapeshifting is temporarily suspended while in a null magic zone. Now I'm not sure if this means you're stuck in your current form or if you revert to your base form.
While we wait I need a volunteer with a naturally high strength. I'll detail the full plan later, but basically I need someone or something with a high strength so that I can possess them via magic jar, use blood money to drain most of their strength away to make the material component needed for simulacrum. I'll put it back via restoration a few rounds later. Basically it's either this or spend a few thousand gold to make our Elder Water elemental.
Volunteers? :-)
Here's my plan to create a big simulacra to facilitate our trip. Right now I'm thinking elder water elemental. I think this is the best option for getting us in and out as well as the cannons. I have a sneaking suspicion we may have to run. I'm putting it out there so we can discuss and pull it apart while we wait for DM.
1) Teleport myself and someone with sufficient strength (Lets call him Jim) to some remote snow covered mountain top.
2) Fabricate: Snow to appropriate sculpture for the simulacrum spell.
3) Magic Jar Jim
4) Cast Blood Money + Fabricate while in Jim's body to create the required Material component.
--Str damage is going to either be 8 or 16 for an elder water elemental. I don't know if the spell is based on starting HD or final HD.
5) Cast Simulacrum to make our new Elemental friend.
6) Teleport to our final destination at the north of the river outside the mana wastes.
I believe us vampires wont be usable because we cant take bleed damage or take ability damage. also the thing at the end says we cant.
I believe us vampires wont be usable because we cant take bleed damage or take ability damage. also the thing at the end says we cant.
Correct. Vamps are out.
How does Magic Jar work with extra-planar creatures whose soul and body are supposedly one and the same?
How does Magic Jar work with extra-planar creatures whose soul and body are supposedly one and the same?
I'm pretty sure it works the same way. They don't delve too deep into cosmology with stuff like this. If nothing else the spell specifically says it works on undead, so its a similar issue.
I'm gonna say that magic jar works the same on outsiders. It only doesn't work on undead and creatures without souls, like constructs.
Also, the shapeshifter thing depends on whether both forms are her true form. For example, there's an eladrin - it's got a whirlwind form and an elfin form. Both forms are its true form, and it reverts to neither form if it dies. If this is the case with the lamia matriarch, then she can shift at will. Otherwise, she reverts to her true form in an area of null magic.
I'm gonna say that magic jar works the same on outsiders. It only doesn't work on undead and creatures without souls, like constructs.
Also, the shapeshifter thing depends on whether both forms are her true form. For example, there's an eladrin - it's got a whirlwind form and an elfin form. Both forms are its true form, and it reverts to neither form if it dies. If this is the case with the lamia matriarch, then she can shift at will. Otherwise, she reverts to her true form in an area of null magic.
That's fair.
Given the lack of responses I assume that the above plan has no gaping holes.
All I need is a volunteer or an elephant with which to make anthropomorphic before possessing.
Tar'jub will volunteer, although having an anthropomorphic awakened elephant for hauling items about would be rather entertaining.
Tar'jub will volunteer, although having an anthropomorphic awakened elephant for hauling items about would be rather entertaining.
Yea, but where are we going to find an elephant? (Rhetorical)
I can hear it already:
Sparel: "We've figured out how to get the cannons!"
Belor: "Great, lets hear it."
Sparel: "Well first we'll need to travel north to pick up some traps and bait. Then we..."
Belor: "Wait. What? For the cannons?"
Sparel: "No, of course not, don't be absurd. The traps and bait are for catching the elephants!"
I can hear it already:
Sparel: "We've figured out how to get the cannons!"
Belor: "Great, lets hear it."
Sparel: "Well first we'll need to travel north to pick up some traps and bait. Then we..."
Belor: "Wait. What? For the cannons?"
Sparel: "No, of course not, don't be absurd. The traps and bait are for catching the elephants!"
I can see this becoming some serious Nutty Processor Schtick very quickly.
Edit:
"I'm going to need a bag of mice and some peanuts...."
Have the same sort of shape-change as an Imp (ie the 'Change Shape' special quality), but they do have the Shapechanger subtype just like the Azata. Sadly, the subtype doesn't explain much and there is no mention of true form - which is code for no dice I guess ^^
Also - using our awe-inspiring airship to raid a zoo for elephants did sound like fun : D
Have the same sort of shape-change as an Imp (ie the 'Change Shape' special quality), but they do have the Shapechanger subtype just like the Azata. Sadly, the subtype doesn't explain much and there is no mention of true form - which is code for no dice I guess ^^
Also - using our awe-inspiring airship to raid a zoo for elephants did sound like fun : D
Nothing says we Can't still do that, though storage is going to be an issue.
To pass the time Sparel is considering options to allow his vampire captains to walk around in the daylight. For logistic reasons. This is all very subjective, so I want to get a group consensus about what this item should cost. I have some basic calculations, but as mentioned they're subjective. Also, I'm not great at wording this to encompass what I mean, so verbiage suggestions are also welcome.
Vampiric sunbathing ring:
This item protects light sensitive creatures from the harmful effects of the natural sun and a +2 bonus to spells that duplicate the suns effects.
When worn the ring provides protection equivalent to a Protective Penumbra spell. However, the spell itself has no visible effect. I.e. They're protected, but don't appear to be shrouded in shadow.
Additionally the wearer has minor illusions woven around them that help to disguise vampire nature (non-pale skin, colored eyes, etc). These illusions provide a +10 disguise bonus to appear as a human version of themselves. The wearer has no control over the illusion in any way and cannot change their characteristics or appear to be a different human. However, illusion from a different source will override this if desired. Any overt vampiric behavior negates this bonus as automatically as an immediate action(Baring fangs, Drinking blood, etc). The illusion re-establishes itself automatically a full round after such behavior ceases.
Further each ring has a coffin sized (changed to match wearers size category) extra dimensional space accessible only by a non-solid form such as gaseous form. The space provides just enough room for one body and a small amount of dirt which can be left in the space if needed. Entering the space is quite efficient and only takes a move action once in a non-solid state. The ring cannot enter it's own extra dimensional space and falls to the ground if not otherwise placed on a surface before the wearer enters. When the wearer exits (full round action) they can choose to do so in such a way as to be wearing the ring. If the portal on the interior side of the ring is otherwise physically blocked, such as someone else wearing the ring, the creature inside is trapped until the portal is no longer blocked or the creature planshifts by other means.
Finally the ring appears non-magical to all but the closest inspection as per the Magic Aura Spell.
Rough Calculation:
Protective Penumbra @ Will = (Sl 2 x CL 3 x 2000 GP)10,000
Disguise self @ will, but severely limited (Sl 1 x CL 2 x 2000 GP X 30% discount)2800
Slightly modified Pathfinder pouch mechanic 2,000 (increased price to compensate for extra space.
Total Market Price: 14,800
Going out in the sun is still a risky endeavor, but this ring provides a base level protection plus a backup should the vampire need to return to it's coffin to prevent total destruction. Though it still wont work in anti-magic areas.
Thoughts?
that seems interesting. if DM allows we might try to make some after we finish up with Alkenstar.
that seems interesting. if DM allows we might try to make some after we finish up with Alkenstar.
I was going to propose it while we waited for the DM to finish his real life stuff. Just to pass the time.
It will however do you absolutely no good in Alkenstar due to the antimagic.
You also need to include the price for a constant magic aura effect in your price calculations.
Should be something like 3500 extra or something?
Oh, also, the extradimensional space should be more expensive, mimicking a bag of holding's price and size category, with a further increased price for the fact that its base weight is zero instead of being fifteen pounds.
You also need to include the price for a constant magic aura effect in your price calculations.
Should be something like 3500 extra or something?
Oh, also, the extradimensional space should be more expensive, mimicking a bag of holding's price and size category, with a further increased price for the fact that its base weight is zero instead of being fifteen pounds.
I based the extra dimensional space off the pathfinder pouch. It's larger, but also has a significantly more limited use. I doubled the price to compensate however it's pretty cheap to start with. Adding another 3500 is totally fair.
So the total market price would be $18,300. Sound fair?
I'm on board for the elemental plan though I can't actually help with it and I would go for that amulet. We would then just need to figure out how to break the vampire clause about going into peoples houses uninvited.
I'm on board for the elemental plan though I can't actually help with it and I would go for that amulet. We would then just need to figure out how to break the vampire clause about going into peoples houses uninvited.
It's a ring, but if you want an amulet instead I can do it that way.
Running water and wood are your bigger issues. For peoples houses all you have to do is knock on the door and dominate someone.