Shadow over Riddleport

Game Master Joana

Unless you totally run with a set-up by the GM, and she didn't want you to. :)

No, no, you're good. It's just that you're doing magus-y things, and this is the first time I've dealt with magus mechanics so I had to wait until I had time to sit down with the rules.

It looks like you're trying to use Spellstrike to deliver a touch spell along with a melee attack, but you don't get Spellstrike until level 2, correct? You can use Spell Combat to cast a spell at the same time as you make a melee attack, but you'd have to make a separate attack roll for the touch attack; also using Spell Combat is a full-round action, and you're limited to a move or standard in the surprise round.

So, what we should do is give you a surprise round action (move or standard): you can choose whether to attack with your staff or with brand, and we'll use your attack roll in-thread. Your bonuses would be +2 (Str) +1 (higher ground) +1 (Arcane Pool: Don't see any reason why he wouldn't use it?) for the weapon attack for a total of 13 or +2 (Str) +1 (higher ground) for the touch attack for a total of 12 -- but brand is an unusual spell that takes a touch attack and a Fort save, so Beardy would get to roll that if your attack hits.

After we've resolved the surprise round, we can go to initiative if necessary. Just let me know whether you'd like your surprise round action to be the weapon attack or the brand. Sound good?

If he should miss, the Brand will still be hung, and will land whenever he does hit.

Wait, no, Surprise Round is only one action, not the Full-Round Spell Combat needs. Whack him with the staff. Total attack mods you have are correct. If Beardy doesn't get DEX while climbing, I expect some satisfaction.

Brand next round, I expect. :)

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack. Instead of the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell, a magus can make one free melee attack with his weapon (at his highest base attack bonus) as part of casting this spell. If successful, this melee attack deals its normal damage as well as the effects of the spell. If the magus makes this attack in concert with spell combat, this melee attack takes all the penalties accrued by spell combat melee attacks. This attack uses the weapon's critical range (20, 19–20, or 18–20 and modified by the keen weapon property or similar effects), but the spell effect only deals ×2 damage on a successful critical hit, while the weapon damage uses its own critical modifier.

The way I'm reading it, at 1st level with Spell Combat, you can cast-and-attack as a full-round action, using 2 attack rolls, each at -2 as per two-weapon fighting; at 2nd level with Spellstrike, you can cast a touch spell and deliver it through your weapon as a standard action with no penalty on the attack roll. Are you reading it differently?

Spell Combat (Ex): At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

Summary: A Full-Round Action to cast a Standard Action spell, and make a Full-Round set of weapon attacks at -2.

That means during a surprise round, when he only has a Standard Action to spend, he can't do Spell Combat.

So he'll just StA to attack with the staff.

The way I'm reading it, at 1st level with Spell Combat, you can cast-and-attack as a full-round action, using 2 attack rolls, (...IF the spell requires an attack) each at -2 as per two-weapon fighting; at 2nd level with Spellstrike, you can cast a touch spell and deliver it through your weapon as a standard action with no penalty on the attack roll. Are you reading it differently?

I read it less charitably.

1st Level: FRA, -2 to hit > Cast a spell and also make full iterative attacks. If the spell calls for an attack roll, that attack roll is at -2, and distinct from and in addition to the iterative attacks, made at full base BAB.

2nd Level: StA > Cast a touch attack spell, and rather than making the touch AC to hit roll, you may instead make a normal attack roll, and deliver the spell with your melee weapon, doing the weapon damage and the spell effect.

Gris is 1st Level, and only has a Standard Action, so he just swings the staff. :)

So since brand is a touch spell, it takes a separate attack roll, no? Assume you'll cast before attacking with your staff lest you knock him off the rope and he's no longer in touch range.

It is my understanding that a 'touch' spell allows as part of the casting a touch attack to be made. This understanding would be counter to what I think I am seeing in the quote above, which seems to be that a 'touch' spell requires as part of the casting a touch attack.

Gristav, intending to deliver the sin sigil with his stave strike, neglects (And yes, it's foolish of him, 8 WIS) to make that part-of-the-casting touch attack, and lets the charge be held. Then he strikes with the staff, and because he can deliver touch spells that way, the Brand is carried in the strike.

I hope that's all both clear and correct.

In future (2nd level), he'll be able to attack with the staff as part of the casting. This event seems the very model of how one might develop such a technique. :)

With the understanding that this becomes largely academic once you've achieved 2nd level, would you object to opening the subject up to input from the rest of the group to see how they understand the ability? As I've said, this is my first experience with the magus class, and I have only my reading of the text upon which to base my expectations; I'm sure some of the other players are more familiar with the class in-play than I am.

Touch attacks without spellstrike are not able to be discharged through a weapon strike. You could make a case that you could deliver it by 'touching' with the staff, but by RAW it wouldn't be able to inflict hp damage - just discharge the spell.

Touch: You must touch a creature or object to affect it. A touch spell that deals damage can score a critical hit just as a weapon can. A touch spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit. Some touch spells allow you to touch multiple targets. You can touch up to 6 willing targets as part of the casting, but all targets of the spell must be touched in the same round that you finish casting the spell. If the spell allows you to touch targets over multiple rounds, touching 6 creatures is a full-round action.

No mention of being allowed to discharge a touch spell via a weapon attack - therefore not allowed.

The key thing to remember with Spellstrike as well is that it makes the spell delivery a melee attack rather than a touch attack - meaning that it is against normal AC and not touch AC. The benefit you get is using the weapons crit range and the extra damage from the attack.

Spell Combat works exactly like a full attack with two weapons - the spell is cast and delivered like an offhand attack... except once you get Spellstrike you can choose to instead deliver it with an attack as well... as I said... confusing.

1. Disallowing this would be a large nerf to how I imagined the character working. Specifically, Chill Touch/Frost Bite/similar over several strikes, perhaps not only with the weapon it was 'cast into'. (I'm arguing against the 'cast into' concept, specifically, and arguing for a 'may deliver through weapon' either with a bash (vs AC) or a tickle (vs Touch AC) ). Magicians are depicted as doing such with wands and staves commonly in our setting-informing folklore and literature. All of this paragraph speaks to motivation, though. Moving on to rules.

2. Disallowing HCTW would mean that the weapon might only be used (to deliver the spell) if it was 'introduced' to the spell during a -2 'to-hit' round. I believe there's a FAQ about being disarmed, regaining your weapon, and then using it to deliver the spell, which suggests that if such an 'introduction' metaphysic is in use, the memory of the introduction can last.

3. Examining the question of balance in this last scene. What is lost in (cast-but-not-touch) then (bash-with-spell-flow), compared to (cast-and-free touch attack) and (bash)? Gristav loses one of his to hit rolls. The Brand was less likely to land (assuming some armor on the target) but more likely to land (assuming Touch doesn't get to use STR bonus to hit?). I can see some arguement that the bash is going to be a backup to-hit roll in case of the touch attack missing. I counter-argue that such is the case for all held-charge spells.

4. Gristav cast the spell, and neglected to touch with it. He delivered it with a staff strike. I did not think I was stealing any march on the rules. But good that we're arguing it over 1 pt of damage and a save the foe has already passed, rather than when some life is on the line.

I'm sorry if I'm seen to have trespassed, here. As we've observed, the fence is in poor repair in places.

I really need to know whether 2nd-level+ Gristav will be able to cast a touch spell in one round, miss or hit or just let it 'hang', and deliver it with a staff strike the next. I also need to know for 1st-level Gris.

And again, I apologize for any tres-play, I really did think I was legit, here.

Related trouble ahead:

Cast a multi-touch Touch spell, and get a free Touch attack(part of casting). Spellstrike makes that optionally a weapon attack. Spell Combat adds the option to take -2 on attacks and also make a weapon attack. Would the 2nd weapon attack also carry the multi-touch spell? Let's imagine in the next round Gris double-weapons his staff, would two more 'touches' pass through the staff's attacks, assuming both attacks hit?

And if that sounds correct, here's a three-round, 3rd-level scenario that should not be rolled out as a surprise (save to the enemy)...

R1: Declare Spell Combat. Cast Chill Touch, make Touch Attack at -2. Make weapon attack at -2. Is it the first or both attacks that might convey a charge of Chill Touch?

R2: Declare Spell Combat. Make a weapon attack at -2, convey a charge of Chill Touch. If both attacks in R1 had hit and conveyed, and we just hit, we're empty. SpellStrike a Shocking Grasp, rolling to hit at -2. Let's imagine we miss.

R3: Two-hand the staff, make a single normal Power Attack attack. Expect to also convey the Shocking Grasp.

Holding the charge is specifically allowed, as is, as near as I can tell, choosing whether to discharge it through your weapon or hold it in your off-hand. Whether the spell has multiple charges or you simply miss with weapon or touch attacks, you can keep making attacks as long as you still have unused charges and you don't cast another spell. So...

I really need to know whether 2nd-level+ Gristav will be able to cast a touch spell in one round, miss or hit or just let it 'hang', and deliver it with a staff strike the next.

Using Spellstrike, yes.

I also need to know for 1st-level Gris.

By my understanding of Spell Combat, you get a free touch attack at -2 to deliver the spell via your hand, which counts as an armed attack and doesn't draw an AoO since you are holding a charge. If you miss with the touch attack, you still have the charge the following round but would have to choose between attacking with your weapon or making a touch attack to deliver the spell, as you don't yet have Spellstrike.

Cast a multi-touch Touch spell, and get a free Touch attack(part of casting). Spellstrike makes that optionally a weapon attack. Spell Combat adds the option to take -2 on attacks and also make a weapon attack. Would the 2nd weapon attack also carry the multi-touch spell?

Yes.

Let's imagine in the next round Gris double-weapons his staff, would two more 'touches' pass through the staff's attacks, assuming both attacks hit?

Yes, as long as you have charges left, but if you don't have Two-Weapon Fighting, you'd take the requisite penalties. If you mean swinging twice once you have iterative attacks, then yes, as long as you have charges left. (Am I understanding the question right?)

R1: Declare Spell Combat. Cast Chill Touch, make Touch Attack at -2. Make weapon attack at -2. Is it the first or both attacks that might convey a charge of Chill Touch?

Both, assuming you're using Spellstrike.

R2: Declare Spell Combat. Make a weapon attack at -2, convey a charge of Chill Touch. If both attacks in R1 had hit and conveyed, and we just hit, we're empty. SpellStrike a Shocking Grasp, rolling to hit at -2. Let's imagine we miss.

R3: Two-hand the staff, make a single normal Power Attack attack. Expect to also convey the Shocking Grasp.

Yes, because you are still holding the charge.

Hey, Gristav just figured out why it didn't work! It can't, not that way, until he's 2nd level. :)

I'm sure with just a little more study, he'll be able to master the technique. ;)