Yes, it's well engineered. :)
My main issue with the playtest is that, apart from crashing the boards all day when it was released, all the people who should be posting in the games I'm playing in are excitedly debating the new shinies in the playtest threads instead. :P
Same thing happens with RPG Superstar every year. All the games come to a halt because everyone's off voting.
Well, from my side of the screen, it's got all those other fools busy, not distracting my GM from the obviously far more urgent matter of...
Oh, that's right, we're an hour behind. See, if I'd gone to the Cloud, I could be chatting up Jaelle, maybe. :)
Now, see, if you'd stuck to the original plan and taken the northern loop, Gristav and Snake could be happily strolling along toward Lubbertown without my having to worry about if they're going to stumble across the broken and bloody remains of their allies along the way. ;)
Have to do some finessing of possibilities to prevent incompatible timelines from crossing.
I'll happily cop to a charge of meta. Seemed I could do worse than providing the possibility of uniting the two groups.
Allies seem headed back toward us (at least as I type this) (and hard to tell, when the chain of command is five individual links).
(Heh. Image of the PCs as video-game elves)
Ah. Zelda. Never played it. I skipped straight from Adventure to Baldur's Gate in CRPGs.
Looks like Braddon is headed back toward the two of you at the moment; let's see what Malkith does.
Indeed.
In the spirit of full disclosure- Braddon has a plan!
He's looking back to see what the mist does.
You have little to fear from the two groups encountering each other, except as corpses because of Braddon's plan. :-)
Well, I suppose Gris could console the various ladies.
Snake seems just the sort the widow Weatherby might need. :)
Well, I suppose Gris could console the various ladies.
Who gets to be the Petruchio that inherits Thuvalia? ;)
Well, I suppose Gris could console the various ladies.
Snake seems just the sort the widow Weatherby might need. :)
Ummmmm, no. Just, no. :)
Who gets to be the Petruchio that inherits Thuvalia? ;)
Yeah, not me, that's for sure. Sheesh.
And furthermore: Who are these people again?
Braddon's plan was to trick it into vanishing, then charge through at a gallop before it could reappear- it was Braddon's plan, after all. Now his plan is to shoot it from a safe distance.
I'm sure he'll have other plans in future (assuming he survives :-)
As for the ladies, Braddon doubts his passing will be that widely mourned. He hasn't know any of them for more than a week and is just wise enough to suspect that he may not be good enough for Samaritha. Which just means he'll have to try harder. :-D
Well, I suppose Gris could console the various ladies.Who gets to be the Petruchio that inherits Thuvalia? ;)
I'm not sure what the role of Petruccio requires, but Gris already promised taming.
And Snake, the Widow Weatherby could be a real stunner, the avatar pool, as Joanna said, tends toward pretty. :-)
So your plan was to feint the fog? :)
Putting a commoner built on the basic array through a series of skill challenges is just cruel, Mark. I always have a hard time taking seriously an NPC built on the basic array. My RL group used the Blatant Cheating method of generating ability scores and always ended up with something along the lines of a 70- or 80-point-buy, and I'd usually take the stats from one of their character sheets to build NPCs with. We definitely ended up with the Lake Wobegon effect where everyone in the world was above average, but there wasn't so great a difference between the PCs and everybody else. It kind of bugs me to have the PCs start out as gods among men; I prefer them being average Joes who achieve greatness or have it thrust upon them, rather than being born great.
And Snake, the Widow Weatherby could be a real stunner, the avatar pool, as Joanna said, tends toward pretty. :-)
The door opens a crack, revealing a small, mousy woman with a weak chin.
Probably not too much of a stunner. But she could have a great personality!
If you make a woman feel beautiful, she will be beautiful.
Especially if you have to avatar her from module art. :-)
Unsure if I've been intended to respond to recent scene dressing set in Brad/Malk/Dayn's future.
I'm becoming increasingly sure, however, that we ought to have stuck/got together.
Anyway, please don't take silence as lack of interest.
No, I've kind of hit pause on Gris and Snake to see how Braddon and Malkith's scene plays out. It threw me off a bit when you guys changed plans and decided to take the shortcut instead of the loop; I'd have kept you guys on the road east of town longer to model the time differential if I'd known. Let's see how this next round plays out, and I'll move you guys on as soon as I get a feel for what you'll find when you get to the same stretch of road.
As much my fault, trying to link us up. I'd hoped with them pausing at the mists, perhaps waiting the mists out(the heart of Braddon's 'feinting the mists' plan, which could easily stand beside other great plans of gamer history, cf, 'I cast Magic Missle, at the darkness!'), it was possible we'd be useful, or at least conversate-able.
And then, Snake and I have gone stealthy (we hope), and so we can't even chat between us.
Perhaps Malk, riding back with the scribe, might run into us?
Time... it'll mess stuff UP. :-)
Braddon wanted to take the long way- Dayn called him a scaredy.
Braddon wanted to get away from the mist- Dayn called him a scaredy.
Braddon wanted to stick together, etc etc etc.
Braddon wouldn't be the first of my characters to die because he went with the majority instead of his own way. :-)
Hey, look, she even named the map after you, Braddon :)
Only because it was his turn; not because it's the moment of his untimely demise. Look, the new map's named Malkith! :)
Mark, twice now I've seen people comment in relation to the new playtest classes that Inquisitor is the equivalent of a Cleric/Rogue multiclass. Is that your impression of Phillip? If so, why? Is it just the extra skill points? Because I have a multiclassed Cleric/Rogue, and Inquisitor has never felt anything like her to me.
Malkith, I believe your mount can double-move without it having any effect on your actions. You could cast your spell and move all the way into the fog, if you wanted to. Or you could be staying on this side of it to keep an eye on the others. Let me know if you want to move farther.
Nope - I don't think the Inquisitor is a cleric / rogue pastiche, I see it more as a Divine bard with a combat focus.
Yeah, I've only ever played one Inquisitor, and it wasn't my own PC: I took over the character of a departed player until they got clear of the dungeon and new PCs could be plausibly introduced. But it definitely felt like a combat class to me: I mean, its core Judgment mechanic only comes into play during combat.
But two different people said that a Cleric-Rogue hybrid class was already extant as an Inquisitor. To me, opening locks is the sine qua non of the rogue's abilities and healing for the cleric. If it doesn't get Disable Device as a class skill and channeling, then it doesn't feel like either to me. (Obviously, others' opinions differ, but those are the two signature abilities I'm looking for in a Cleric/Rogue.)
The Inquisitors I've seen in play remind me more of a Ranger: secondary damage dealer stepping up to primary when Judgments are in play, tertiary healer/caster. Obviously, Phil's breaking that mold; he has more of a Rogue vibe than any Inquisitor I've seen in play. But he definitely doesn't feel like a Cleric, from this side of the screen at least.
You'll be pleased to find out that google had to be resorted to regarding sine qua non :P
Inquisitors are definitely generally damage dealers, and after level 5 (when Bane comes in) they are very very flexible and powerful... but you're right that isn't the focus for Phil. I'm more leveraging off the emotive / escape spells and social skills here.
The Sin inquisition is amazing in that instance (even though I haven't leveraged too much mechanical off it).
It's interesting that so many other people seem to think that classes are so easily pigeonholed though.
Clerics in PF to me are a combination of channeling and domains - but even then you get a lot of variation between the various deities and domain choices that can make them play wildly differently. Pet peeve for Clerics is that they don't get 4 + Int skills as a minimum.
Rogues in PF to me are defined more by skill flexibility. Sneak attack and disable device comes into it, but to rogue talents and mobs of skill points are the clay that I see molding rogues. Even then though... a thuggish skulker and a courtly intrigue wringer can both be easily built within the class.
One strange point is that pre-PF I was a halfling rogue kind of guy 100%... but I'm yet to actually play a rogue in PF for any meaningful length of time.
Gristav and Snake, I'll have you back in action tomorrow.
Thanksgiving approacheth for us US-based posters; I'm not traveling so I'll be around, albeit busy, through the weekend. I'll give some leeway on the 24-hour rule for the duration, but if you know you're going to be unavailable, notification to that effect would be appreciated.
Mark, totally want to chat classes with you, but it's approaching 1 AM here. Maybe tomorrow while my pies are in the oven?
Mmmmm.... pies.... I make a mean Apple and Rhubarb pie (albeit still with store bought pastry). Happy thanksgivings to one and all :)
After a post midnight epiphany I realised what I actually associate more with the cleric than anything... spontaneous cure conversion.
Gristav and Snake, I'll have you back in action tomorrow.
No rush. (Though I do appear to be late for my shift at the ferry)
;-)
No,wait...
;-{)}
Sorry: Grimas, Gristav. I read that over at least once before submitting and still didn't catch it. :P
No matter, it gave me cause to develop the beard-smiley.
You know, if Braddon turns into Ghost Rider or something equivalent...
Can I go through the fog? Just askin'. :)
Ah, to be there with our KN:Arcana.
How is Braddon going to get the girls while glowing a sickly green? Given the fact that we're doing about one game day every six months, he could be like this for years!!
The only real upside, aside from not being dead yet, is that he may get a close examination from Samaritha. :-)
Yeah the chick issue might be a problem, BUT THINK OF JUST HOW FREAKIN' COOL YOU'D BE! This ghost pirate guy just gets more interesting. Mmmmm.... :)
Given the fact that we're doing about one game day every six months...
Hey now! Wealday started in mid-August, and it's almost over now. That's one game day in four months or so. ;P
Cool - just one more in game day... then we get to goto the arena to see Phil's acquaintances crush some skulls :P
How is Braddon going to get the girls while glowing a sickly green? Given the fact that we're doing about one game day every six months, he could be like this for years!!
The only real upside, aside from not being dead yet, is that he may get a close examination from Samaritha. :-)
You better ride hard, then.
;-{)}
For time purposes, Gristav, Snake, and Phil are roughly simultaneous now, while Braddon, Dayn, and Malkith are still earlier in the evening. Let's see where they choose to go and what they do with their prisoner.
Mmmmm.... pies.... I make a mean Apple and Rhubarb pie (albeit still with store bought pastry).
I made a pumpkin and a coconut cream. I always make my pie crusts from scratch. I tried the frozen kind once to save time and regretted it deeply.
You'll be pleased to find out that google had to be resorted to regarding sine qua non :P
Yeah, well, you returned the favor with enthalpic. ;)
In re class tropes: I started playing in 2e, and the group that taught me the game relied heavily on a standard party make-up: Melee Guy, Healer, Lock-Picker/Trap-Disarmer, and Ranged Guy, in that order. (Interestingly, not Magic-User: with a d4 hit die and limited low-level spells, no one ever wanted to play one.) But both the guys who DMed back then loved playing thieves when they were players, so you could guarantee that you'd need someone to Climb Walls, Open Locks, Find/Remove Traps, Move Silently, and Hide in Shadows -- and other character classes simply couldn't do those things in AD&D. Other classes can climb now (and since it's Str-based, fighters are better at it than rogues which just seems wrong to me), and other classes can be stealthy, so Disable Device is the core rogue mechanic in my mind.
I've played several thieves/rogues. They always felt to me like the MacGyver class, the ones who use imagination and creativity to find a way forward other than smashing the other guy with a weapon repeatedly. Particularly with the advent of the skill system in 3.x, they were a toolbox, not just a big stick. Damage, rinse, repeat has always bored me. I've only ever really had two combat-oriented PCs that I enjoyed, and they both had enough personality quirks to keep me amused in spite of the combat.
As for clerics, obviously, Healer was one of the Big Four. You could get by without ranged weapons if you had to, or arcane magic, but not without a healer. My husband pretty much always played the cleric because no one else wanted to. He'd usually play two PCs: one support healer and one who actually got to do something fun.
I play a lot of clerics ... but only since Pathfinder. Channeling was a game-changer for me. It meant you could do something other than save all your spell slots for cures. Anything without channeling doesn't fill the primary healer role for me. The only other healing class that approaches being able to heal and do something else interesting is the Healing Hex witch, and a four-encounter day forces her to learn cure spells too, or rely on consumables.
I definitely appreciate the customizability that domains (and negative channeling) provide. One of the reason I never played clerics before Pathfinder was that the first PC I ever played was a cleric, and I never saw any reason to play another: I'd already done it. Too many of the domain powers are boring, though: Using a standard action to give someone a +1 on attack rolls or saving throws for a round is pretty lame. (And, yeah, it scales up with level, but most of my PCs are never going to get there. I don't think I've ever played a character past 6th or 7th level so anything they gain access to after that doesn't even enter into the equation.)
And that empty progression table! All they get as they level up are more levels of spells and more channel dice: necessary, but not very exciting. I wish they got class features like rogue talents or rage powers to make them more interesting. Especially when every cleric has access to every spell every day, they could use something to distinguish one cleric from another: wizards at least have different spells in their spellbooks.
I haven't been game to wrastle with pastry yet as our kitchen gets very hot and humid while we're cooking. (that and potentially elements of slack ness and procrastination :P) I am considering salting my own beef though for corned silverside (again when I get round to it).
No one is so lonely as the Cleric taking 2nd level as far as character choices go.
Skill gentrification has made it a bit harder on the Rogue with Disable Device though - as with traits anyone can have it as a class skill, and trapfinding on it's own really doesn't do much for you (especially since most archetypes give it up as well). It's a bit of a pity, and one of the usual cattle-cries when people are attempting to imply that rogues are a bad class.
It's interesting when you consider group make-ups, as my experience was forged in the gold-box CRPG era. With that I found the best make-up to essentially take one wizard, one cleric, one rogue and three frontliners (usually one fighter, one ranger and one paladin). I've found Pathfinder fairly resilient though, and you can get away with some fairly whacky party configurations as long as they're built well.
I've got one of just about every class in the PbP stable nowadays - but I tend to gravitate to skill based classes mostly. I feel trapped even when I need to go down to only 4+Int.
No one is so lonely as the Cleric taking 2nd level as far as character choices go.
What makes it worse is that she gets additional channel dice the same level she gets access to the next level of spells ... so you really get nothing on the even levels. The rogue alternates rogue talents with additional sneak attack dice so you feel like you're actually accomplishing something every time you level up. I don't know why they didn't make an effort to stagger the cleric similarly. Even the wizard and spontaneous casters feel like they get something for leveling up because they get to pick their two new spells. Cleric, it's just 'roll for hit points.' :P
I suppose that the people who say the inquisitor is a cleric/rogue hybrid see the rogue's niche as "lots of skill points" and the cleric's as "able to use a wand of clw without a UMD roll." If you're coming at it from a strictly mechanical point of view, it makes sense.
Skill gentrification has made it a bit harder on the Rogue with Disable Device though - as with trait anyone can have it as a class skill,
FTFY. The only trait I've found that gives Disable Device as a class skill is Vagabond Child (Urban). (If you know of one I've missed, please dish; there are only so many street urchin backgrounds I can stomach.) The only other way I know of to get it is to dip a level of Rogue or Urban Ranger. Disable Device, for whatever reason (probably a half-hearted attempt at "protecting the rogue's niche"), is one of the hardest skills to get a +3 to.
and trapfinding on it's own really doesn't do much for you (especially since most archetypes give it up as well).
Yeah, while the old-school restriction that no one but a thief can find and disarm traps went too far (particularly with trap-heavy old-school dungeons that basically required a thief in the party), watering down Trapfinding to a skill bonus goes too far in the other direction, imo. And, as you say, virtually every rogue archetype trades out Trapfinding, which leads one to question exactly what the developers see as the rogue's niche. Sneak Attack, I suppose. But even if you're able to tumble around and get in flanking position every round, or have party members who will help you do so, you're still not doing the damage at mid- to high-levels that a class with full BAB and Power Attack does without even trying and takes a much greater risk getting into position with fewer HP and lower AC.
Rogue talents definitely make the rogue more exciting and versatile, but with point-buy you have to choose between being good at Sneak Attack or being good at finding and removing traps. You can't cover all the rogue class abilities competently; you're forced either to specialize or to settle for being middling at everything and good at nothing.
I wonder if 3.x has given away enough of the rogue abilities for anyone to buy that it might not be better to eliminate the class and just have roguish archetypes for other classes. Archaeologist is almost there for bard, if they'd only give you an option to pick up Sneak Attack; that would be your magicky rogue. Urban Ranger's a combat rogue. Slayer, Investigator, Ninja, Detective, Swashbuckler: They all trespass pretty blatantly on what used to be rogue concepts. Errata by obsolescence?
I tend to gravitate to skill based classes mostly. I feel trapped even when I need to go down to only 4+Int.
I tend to find that I either have too many skill points for my concept or not enough. Clerics are rough, because they're ostensibly an educated class, but they don't have the skill points to model their training, particularly since Int doesn't do anything else for them. And while they have high Wisdom, the most useful Wis-based skill, Perception, isn't a class skill so it feels like a waste to allocate a scarce skill point there. Witch is difficult as well, although at least Int is her main casting stat so she gets bonus skill points that way.
I'd started a post walking past the numbers on the map, then lost it, then noticed the landmarks were obscured by the gloom, anyway.
Which is by way of apologizing for not posting.
Not a problem. I too was originally thinking that Gris could play tour guide as they cross the city, but if I'm going to make a big deal out of poor visibility on the road, a few oil lamps on street corners on a rainy night aren't going to make much of a difference past their radius.
But Snake has Light, was my original thinking. Though I can certainly see how we might not want to go prowling about lighting up Zincher's possessions.
;-{)}
Light's the equivalent of torchlight so the radius just follows his pebble around. You'd need a bull's-eye lantern or something more flashlight-like to say Look over there; that's the Gas Forges.
That said, if you've a plan, feel free to broach it to Snake. It's not like the two of you can get any wetter at this point.
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Snake. We'll forgo the tour, and arrive under some lasting cover soonest, where our magics can make us dry again.
I'm pretty sure I can speak for Snake. We'll forgo the tour, and arrive under some lasting cover soonest, where our magics can make us dry again.
No arguments here. :)
Say, Braddon's looking for an expert in curses?
;-{)}
If Snake makes his magical background known he'll get plenty of attention from Braddon, right up until the point where he can't help.
Heck, Braddon is desperate enough to even consider Tendal. :-)
(I don't think he's seen Gristav do any magical beyond talking without taking a breath.) :-D