Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: Ultimate Wilderness

Personally, I don't see how hard it would be to do some sort of revision. A separate PDF file anyone can download and/or print. For those with the PDF, a new copy. For those with hard copies, well, best print out the PDF revision.

That's design, development and editing time that has to get taken away from a different product that is already being worked on. That's work being done on a product that's already being released and sold instead of a product yet for release/sale.

On top of which it has to fit the exact page footprint the class already has so that the reprint of the product doesn't further impacts in other sections of the book.

So, it's actually pretty difficult.

Even if Paizo were inclined to do it, as while there are a vocal contingent who are unhappy with the Shifter class, the fact is the Shifter is a functional class. It operates as a fine Warrior type class with some tricks. I too wasn't happy that the Shifter wasn't as adaptable as I'd hoped on first hearing about the class, but it is not actually unplayable or broken. It just didn't meet the self-made expectations of the audience it was sold to.

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected

They told us we were getting a Full BAB spell-less shapeshifter. Numerous people extrapolated that a martial without casting would be a Master of Many Forms ultimate shapeshifter that would out shapeshift and be just as versatile as 9th level casters.

You’re right, I owe the community and Paizo an apology. I regret the comparison.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I, at least, accept your apology.

Personally, I don't see how hard it would be to do some sort of revision. A separate PDF file anyone can download and/or print. For those with the PDF, a new copy. For those with hard copies, well, best print out the PDF revision.

Many companies will take your product and replace it with something functional. If not, they still compensate you and you can get the same thing or something else entirely.

Car companies do "callbacks." Bring your car in, get what's wrong with it fixed, and continue on with what you originally paid for. A great quality product.

Now I'm not suggesting Paizo callback all their hard copy orders. But to do the electronic equivalent, instead. Revise, release as a PDF for those with hard copies to print (not the entire book, just the Shifter) and those with electronic copies can simply get a revised version of the PDF to re-download.

Done deal.

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected.

I believe we're not hearing much from their end because they're still considering what to do, if anything at all, but my hope is they're trying to do something. Maybe they're in the process and don't want to say much.

In time, we'll see.

Or the overly dramatic flourishes (from both sides) have just made them throw their collective hands in the air :P

I suspect the Shifter will stay as is.....future feats and archetypes may come along to help broaden it's options enough to satisfy those that feel it's....flat.

I'm more concerned with FAQ process on some of the archetypes that need some things more clearly spelled out (yes I'm looking at you Oozmorph) so that they can be confidently played.

Hopefully that at least is being looked at.

Steve Geddes wrote:

It's an error to think that something you don't like in a creative field is bad. It's just something you dont like.

You do not appear conversant with all common definitions and uses of the word "bad."

Or you decided to look for a "clever" joke, without actually trying to hear what I was getting at.

I really don't like strawberry icecream - it makes me sick. That doesn't make it a bad flavor, nor does it mean an ice-cream parlor providing it has made some terrible blunder. The shifter is the same. Some people like it, some people don't (and people are much more likely to talk about what they dislike on the internet, unfortunately).

My point is that subjective opinions (I don't like the shifter) shouldn't be voiced as objective facts (the shifter is bad). There are many different cohorts of customer that make up Paizo's market. Any creative decision will please some but not others. When something comes along which is a miss for you it's entirely appropriate to say so. Less appropriate to question the competence of professionals who may have just been catering to someone with differing tastes than you, in this instance.

Barachiel Shina wrote:

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected

They told us we were getting a Full BAB spell-less shapeshifter. Numerous people extrapolated that a martial without casting would be a Master of Many Forms ultimate shapeshifter that would out shapeshift and be just as versatile as 9th level casters.

They told people a lot of things that led to the supposedly 'self-made' expectations. When those turned out to be, at best, no longer true when the class showed up....

Xenocrat wrote:

You’re right, I owe the community and Paizo an apology. I regret the comparison.

I can't speak for anyone else, but I, at least accept your apology.

Same here. Thank you. ^_^

Rysky wrote:

Barachiel Shina wrote:

That's just how efficient customer service should work. Otherwise, you're just harming yourself as well as those who bought into something believing and being told it's one thing, only to find out it's nothing they expected or just poor quality of what they expected

They told us we were getting a Full BAB spell-less shapeshifter. Numerous people extrapolated that a martial without casting would be a Master of Many Forms ultimate shapeshifter that would out shapeshift and be just as versatile as 9th level casters.

They told people a lot of things that led to the supposedly 'self-made' expectations. When those turned out to be, at best, no longer true when the class showed up....

I do not recall a Paizo employee comparing the class to a Master of Many Forms.

If they did so I apologize, but to my knowledge that assumption is just that, an assumption and not anything Paizo stated.

"Paladin of druid faiths" and "chimeric forms like a bearowl' and even now on the product page itself we have "heightened level of savagery' and the shifter is none of those things.

At Paizocon they said that the shifter could, at later levels, 'take aspects of one creature and apply it to another, for instance to make a sort of... bear-owl creature'. Some people took it to mean more than that, including me, but they quite literally described the mechanic. You have aspects, and later on you can apply them to other forms, and multiple at the same time. They didn't lie at all.

At Paizocon they said that the shifter could, at later levels, 'take aspects of one creature and apply it to another, for instance to make a sort of... bear-owl creature'. Some people took it to mean more than that, including me, but they quite literally described the mechanic. You have aspects, and later on you can apply them to other forms, and multiple at the same time. They didn't lie at all.

Well yeah, but when someone says "This car can go at least 40 miles per hour" people are going to be kind of put off when it tops out at 41. Not a lie, but it's understandable if someone's upset it can't at least get to 60.

Plus you can't make a bear-owl creature, that part is undeniably false. You can make a bear that's slightly stealthier than your average bear, or you can make an owl that's slightly more durable than your average owl, or you can make a dude that supposedly channels the power of owls and bears to be slightly stealthier and more durable than the average dude, but you can't make any kind of owl-bear hybrid.

"Paladin of druid faiths" and "chimeric forms like a bearowl' and even now on the product page itself we have "heightened level of savagery' and the shifter is none of those things.

"Paladin of Druid Faiths" - You gain druidic as a bonus language, all the fluff describes them as champions of druidic faiths.

"Chimeric forms like a bear owl" Wildshape into a bear, activate your owl aspect. You are a bear-owl.

"Heightened level of savagery" is pure marketing speak, it has absolutely no meaning like "fun" or "game-play", it's actually meaningless buzzwords. Your expectation of what that means is entirely built up by yourself. Savagery is not measured anywhere in Pathfinder Role Playing Game™.

Role: The shifter is so attuned to nature and the wild beasts of the world that she can call upon those powers tomystically fortify her being. Fluid in form and function, she can shape herself to overcome hardships and support those she befriends or serves.

Italic emphasis mine

My perception of 'fluid' is not 'one type of creature to Wild Shape into' at fourth level.

My perception of 'fluid' is not 'one minor aspect until one levels up a bit' and 'one major aspect/shape' from Wild Shape when there is another class that can turn into *nearly anything* (eventually, but starting with *any* beast at L4 for the same duration).

My perception of 'fluid' is not 'the only non-form natural attacks a shifter can have are claws'.

My perception of 'fluid' is not 'Once attaining the form, the character has to remain in it for x hours/level to have any benefit from it.'

My perception of 'fluid' is not 'There are only two animals that actually deliver on the sheer bad-assery so much so they become 'must haves'.

That being said, I think I can understand why they went this way.

Sadly, it turns the class into a 'dippable' at best, based on my perceptions. I don't think that was the design intent, as there was a clear, devoted, and focused effort to make the class stretch across twenty levels.

This is not an assault on the hard work that the team has put forward on this class. It is not an insult to those who felt they were doing, in their own perception, the best class they could put together.

What may end up saving this book from being sent back?

The chance to have cattle as an animal companion.

The fluff describes monk as mobile, but they still go on "stand still and hit" so....

Chimera is a fusion of forms. Bear with a bonus to skills is not a bearowl.

Still very misleading.

I fully agree that Paizo could've explained the Shifter better. The problem is, when you know what you're talking about, sometimes it's nowhere near as clear to your audience as you might think it is.

They never lied to us. We took their words in different ways than they were intended to be taken. It's the benefit of hindsight here. I thought that we'd be getting something closer to Master of Many Forms, but since I wasn't invested in that concept, due to extremely bad experiences with a power-gamer who played one, I'm not that disappointed with what we got. I like some aspects of it, and am mostly disappointed with the two archetypes for it which I was most looking forward to.

Shifter is a solid, not outstanding class for what it is. It isn't what many people expected, though. I do not think it's okay for people to make personal insults about it to the designers, and I wholeheartedly endorse any designer who keeps their head down and ignores the mess, due to how poorly people have reacted.

I'm honestly worried that shifter will end up like mythic rules because Paizo doesn't like touching things that caused Internet outrage at all <_<

I'm honestly worried that shifter will end up like mythic rules because Paizo doesn't like touching things that caused Internet outrage at all <_<

At least Mythic got an AP and has the occasional bit of new material added, Words of Power is dead, buried, and the corpse was eaten by maggots who are also dead and buried.

...I kind of wasn't paying attention for previously stated reasons, are there any Bardic Masterpieces in UW?

...I kind of wasn't paying attention for previously stated reasons, are there any Bardic Masterpieces in UW?

No. Just three Archetypes.

...I kind of wasn't paying attention for previously stated reasons, are there any Bardic Masterpieces in UW?

Unless they're in a section other than the bard archetypes, alas, they do not.

Edit: Undead Ninja! Didn't notice any of them in the book before... *eyes it warily*

Okay, good.

They never lied to us. We took their words in different ways than they were intended to be taken.

Not technically no, but it's also a bit silly to pretend that players were dumb or blinded or overreaching when they're told that a class can turn into a 'bear owl' and didn't realize that that obviously meant you could turn into a bear with a small bonus to stealth checks.

So no, not lying, just shady marketing. That's a pretty sorry defense though.

Well, we finally got a positive review of the Shifter, at least. That’s something.

I'm not gonna go overboard about it. I'm not satisfied with the shifter and will house rule the heck out of it to make it work. If a paper back comes out to support the shifter I won't touch it. if the product continues to be in that quality I will probably stop buying new stuff and just use what I got. That said I feel pathfinder has still built up enough credit with me that i will probably still pick up their next hard back and the next etc. I will probably not pre-order however and wait on some reviews. Yes their is plenty of other good stuff but If you go back to earlier posts before it came back you can see where I said well shifter I'm sold I'll get the book for that alone. So yeah disappointed. Its not even that it is one of those oh well its low tier class stuff. Some of the stuff the way it is written is unusable without house rules. I'm also not going to demand blood (unless its for khorne). I'll post my displeasure (see this post), and be a bit more hesitant about their products in the future but otherwise move on. Now if they do make patches or fix or errata what have you It will definitely restore that little bit of faith It cost them for me anyways. If you think that is not reasonable I'm sorry but that is how I feel.

Well, we finally got a positive review of the Shifter, at least. That’s something.

Except there are some problems with it. Mainly the fact Shifter's Edge isn't full level to damage like they think. The other is that you can't two-weapon fight with (just)natural weapons.

Kind of ironic since they ask if the other reviewers even read the words...

EDIT: Nevermind, it's probably a trolling account since the review is literally the only thing the poster has done. How wonderful.

Benjamin Medrano wrote:

They never lied to us. We took their words in different ways than they were intended to be taken.

Not technically no, but it's also a bit silly to pretend that players were dumb or blinded or overreaching when they're told that a class can turn into a 'bear owl' and didn't realize that that obviously meant you could turn into a bear with a small bonus to stealth checks.

So no, not lying, just shady marketing. That's a pretty sorry defense though.

But you can into a “bear owl” since you gain physical traits from your Minor Aspect, so you can turn into a bear that also has owl features.

...you may have any color of car you like, as long as it's black...

Dαedαlus wrote:

Well, we finally got a positive review of the Shifter, at least. That’s something.

Except there are some problems with it. Mainly the fact Shifter's Edge isn't full level to damage like they think. The other is that you can't two-weapon fight with (just)natural weapons.

Kind of ironic since they ask if the other reviewers even read the words...

EDIT: Nevermind, it's probably a trolling account since the review is literally the only thing the poster has done. How wonderful.

Funny, that's not what you said regarding some of the other reviews.

Good to know you care so much about what I post when I see something like this and can point out major flaws.

Thanks. :)

Keep it civil and respectful. Especially when you disagree.

...you may have any color of car you like, as long as it's black...

About That :3

At least you arent linking the shades of grey

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

...you may have any color of car you like, as long as it's black...

About That :3

Look at those shades I'd say its still pretty black however. definitely not a good satisfying red or blue.

I think what it comes down to is a lot of people aren't happy about what they got. They have just as much a right to complain as anyone has to champion it. (however threats and the like are out right out people don't take it over board that is ridiculous.)
We learn more from criticism then from affirmation. So for people complaining I suggest giving precise reasons. for those championing do the same. (However I think by now you can pretty well hit one of 3 major threads and hear the complaints pretty thoroughly explained.)

I think what upset me about it is if it doesn't get errated or what have you this is the closed we will get to a shape-shifting class that's not a caster. They won't make another one that Oh here this is what you were hoping for. This shifter feels like they could of just made an archetype for the hunter that gave up its animal companion for druid wild shape.

I would of liked to of seen a master of many forms. I won't go into to much details cause this post is long enough already. I will say its better if people come on here and complain and say what they would like as opposed to silently dropping pathfinder and them losing customers, Sales dropping, etc wouldn't you say?

CorvusMask wrote:

I'm honestly worried that shifter will end up like mythic rules because Paizo doesn't like touching things that caused Internet outrage at all <_<

At least Mythic got an AP and has the occasional bit of new material added, Words of Power is dead, buried, and the corpse was eaten by maggots who are also dead and buried.

So you're saying we might some day get a Word that Walks? ;)

Alchemaic wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I'm honestly worried that shifter will end up like mythic rules because Paizo doesn't like touching things that caused Internet outrage at all <_<

At least Mythic got an AP and has the occasional bit of new material added, Words of Power is dead, buried, and the corpse was eaten by maggots who are also dead and buried.

So you're saying we might some day get a Word that Walks? ;)

No. That would require someone to care about the subsystem to resurrect it.

Still wonder how Druid and Shifter stack with each other.

Because that may be a viable way to salvage the class for more fluidity, oddly enough.

That aside, I'm starting to get into the idea of a Cavalier with the Wildling feat(Bovine) and cattle for a mount...

Gorbacz wrote:

nighttree wrote:

For the most part everyone has. Those that are disappointed (the majority as near as I can tell) have actually been more civil in their comments than those speaking out against the disappointment.

You mean the people who advocated for Paizo employees to be fired or the ones who threatened physical violence against the company? :)

There's nothing uncivil about advocating (not demanding) that an employee who shamed and embarrassed a company be let go to demonstrate a commitment to better values (e.g. Weintsteingate) or work product (Shiftergate) going forward.

WOW...the conflating of issues here is quite out of spectrum here. To compare the creators of the shifter class whom some posters believe have performed sub par to someone who has been accused (and in my personal opinion rightfully so) of multiple felonies is outrageous.

Even the concept of calling it "Shiftergate" is beyond the pale. The concept of adding "gate" to something is to indicate that a conspiracy has happened and someone tried to cover it up. I really don't see how Paizo did anything that rises to that level.

You may be disappointed in the work that was done, you can point to what you see as flaws in the class, but claiming that Paizo has done something criminal here is IMHO way beyond the pale.

Edit: Sorry for coming to the thread late. I see the apology, and accept it. I'm leaving my comments as I stand by what I said, but I piled on and should have read farther.

I will probably not pre-order however and wait on some reviews.

I said this before the book came out [I'm still a bit salty after ACG] and you'd think I was advocating kicking puppies... :P

Needless to say UW hasn't altered that for me. I'm going to have to SEE the product before any cash leave my pocket...

...here is New Coke. It's everything you want in a soda!

Customer reaction: Do. Not. Want.

*sound of plummeting sales*

...here is Coke Classic. It's a lot closer to what you remember. You'll like it.

...notes that neither one did actually hit what 'Coke' from Coca-Cola had bottled, that falling to a 3PP that was licensed. Coca-Cola de Mexico

tl;dr: I hope this isn't Pathfinder's New Coke.

Vidmaster7 wrote:

I will probably not pre-order however and wait on some reviews.

I said this before the book came out [I'm still a bit salty after ACG] and you'd think I was advocating kicking puppies... :P

Needless to say UW hasn't altered that for me. I'm going to have to SEE the product before any cash leave my pocket...

But how else are you going to tenderize the puppy meat?

I'm of the same mind regarding preorders. As a player, setting information and "neat subsystems" that may or may not ever see the light of day matter far less to me than build options available to normal PCs. Look at the most recent (non-Bestiary) hardcovers:
-Ultimate Wilderness (single class, several options tied to "unusual" races, fair amount of reprints and nerfs, meh options otherwise, plus new subsystems)
-Book of Vile Darkness (Evil-focused, so less likely to get used. Reprinted material is more acceptable, given that what it was reprinting wasn't even Pathfinder content)
-Adventurer's Guide (heavily tied to setting, heavy nerfs and reprints)
-Villain Codex (worth a PDF for some of the options, but a good chunk of this is devoted to specific NPCs)
-Horror Adventures (some OK player content, but a fair amount is optional subsystems or tips on what the GM needs to change)
-Ultimate Intrigue (one class with flavor that has to be ignored to fit into many games, plus still more optional rules subsystems)

They've been getting less and less useful for me. And that's not even getting into the delays with getting stuff legalized for Society play.

I hope this isn't Pathfinder's New Coke.

IMO the shifter is closer to Tab Clear. :P

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

I hope this isn't Pathfinder's New Coke.

IMO the shifter is closer to Tab Clear. :P

...Crystal Pepsi...? ...Zima...?

Shaventalz, at the sake of mentioning another product in the thread once a fair (and to be honest, very generous) method of mitigating any damage to PFS characters was introduced the idea of picking up the Adventurer's Guide (because I didn't have most of those splats) at least in .pdf wasn't such a bad idea.

Have to agree with the decreasing utility and 'niche', though.

Perhaps it's my 'old school' mentality showing, but holding off on releasing a book for a year or two and getting more than one class (not just archetypes) and having a more broadly applicable rules set would be better than trying to make 'this perfect thing'?

It could take some of the stress off, and having multiple classes in *playtest* at a given time toxic-commentary folks need not apply might mitigate a certain tier of 'focus' on just one class?

But then Paizo wouldn't have to rush a book out for a Convention where a lot of people would buy it quickly. Not sure that they'll go with that option.

Alchemaic wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I'm honestly worried that shifter will end up like mythic rules because Paizo doesn't like touching things that caused Internet outrage at all <_<

At least Mythic got an AP and has the occasional bit of new material added, Words of Power is dead, buried, and the corpse was eaten by maggots who are also dead and buried.

So you're saying we might some day get a Word that Walks? ;)

I loved the idea of Words of Power. However, it has already been reborn into the far superior Spheres of Power system :)

Something to consider is that the shifter class is exactly what they wanted, and there isn't a fix coming. If one is desired, it is certainly possible for individuals to work on them for their home games and have the product they want.

Almost twenty years ago now, Delta Tao Games came out with Clan Lord, one of the first MMORPGs. It's still around. However, over the years quite a number of people b~%#+ed and moaned about this or that thing they didn't like. Eventually, the GMs limited replies to such complaints to one acronym: SACWAG. It means "start a company, write a game". :-)

Does Not Help for loyal and faithful players in the Organized Play Campaigns that are 'stuck' with 'whatever is produced'.

Uqbarian wrote:

So you're saying we might some day get a Word that Walks? ;)

No. That would require someone to care about the subsystem to resurrect it.

Ha!

I loved the idea of Words of Power. However, it has already been reborn into the far superior Spheres of Power system :)

I keep meaning to look into Spheres. It does sound nifty!