I was not sure when you would get your net connection back, and this book has potential to be completed soon. I was the one who told the party to wait for you to tweak the loot sheet, thus I denied the opportunity of anyone else to take over creating a new loot sheet.
If I have compromised the party by my words or actions(I.e causing the party to not know what resources they have for the final fight), it is my duty to fix things, no matter onerous a duty it may be.
Later you need to figure out if you want to head straight back to Wren the way you came, or explore more to find an alternative way back.
Fair enough. Also - Howard - we need to work Claude out - I'm getting different numbers.
I'm pretty cool with most stuff, as long as it's done by the rules. I do, however smell a possible rule violation.
Go ahead. Though on my point of view, I've always assumed that it would be based on the polymorph table, since until today, I didn't know the monster advancement table exists(since I don't create monsters), nor any ability that would let you use the table in question.
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Go ahead. Though on my point of view, I've always assumed that it would be based on the polymorph table, since until today, I didn't know the monster advancement table exists(since I don't create monsters), nor any ability that would let you use the table in question.
Fair enough, but it never occurred to me that it would be anything *other* than the Monster Advancement table, since the Mauler explicitly mentions shifting to medium size, and the Polymorph table doesn't allow for that.
Oh well!
Yeah I did because I wanted to give you freedom of choice. I put it back.
Reason being you posted before I did, so I deleted the post in case you wanted to go elsewhere.
Howard I Moved Kaa up to block the door. If that's not the right position please move him back.
That works yeah.
Haven't looked at loot, will do that before Monday afternoon (trying to get work done so I don't work a third weekend in a row).
I always thought size increases were a set thing for creatures, like animal growth or whatever it's called now.
This: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/a/animal-growth/
The spell basically references the size change table. I'd expect Mauler to work the same for size increase.
So it gets +2 str, and it gets normal str adjustments for increasing in size. Which is +8 going to medium.
Issue is the person who wrote the part about Mauler specifically said it was to use polymorph
Animal growth - the way I see it is the spell says you get this, so you get this. Bestiary is generally not for player use unless you have something that says you can - i.e feats animal companions are allowed to take right off the bat(that don't require 3 int).
Howard I looked it up, you should be fine as is. Mauler makes you medium sized magical beasts and extra +2 str.
Let's say it uses polymorph spell. Polymorph works as beast shape for magical beasts (familiars). Beast shape for medium magical beasts is:
Medium magical beast: If the form you take is that of a Medium magical beast, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, and a +4 natural armor bonus.
Polymorph school says you apply the following size modifier before the spell modifier if the original size is not small or medium:
Tiny +4 str -2 dex –0 con new size:Small
The monster advancement for tiny to medium is: +8 str -4 dex +2 con.
So for the polymorph effect you gain +8 str, -2 dex, +4 natural AC
I think that's way better anyway. Same str (+10), 2 more dex, 2 less con, 4 more AC.
Tada!
One thing I noticed I hate about Pathfinder is size changes. Just make one freaking table for everything whether magic, temporary, advancement, etc.
Basically what happens on polymorph is that the size is adjusted to small/medium, then the modifiers from the spell is added in.
"If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell."
So according to my calculations it would be +4 str, -2 dex, for tiny adjusted to small.
Also - they did NOT state that it worked like the spell beastshape - but rather (by dev imput) just referenced the polymorph table and specifically gave the +2 str(we can count it as part of the polymorph spell). So you cannot poach from random spells to determine what happens in this case, since it's clearly stated - you apply the size adjustment for polymorph table, then add 2 strength to it.
"+2 bonus to Strength (this stacks with the normal Strength adjustments for increasing in size)."
You get nothing from going from small to medium.
Like the effects of a polymorph spell casted on a small halfling and a medium human would be the same. For example, alterself, both the halfling and the human would get the same +2 str bonus from the spell.
And for any spell/effect - you get what the spell/effect says you get...nothing more, nothing less.
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*shrugs*
The issue for me, was that the Mauler ability explicitly made the familiar medium-sized; if it was not meant to matter, why make it medium, instead of small-sized (the ability also did not list it as a polymorph effect, which is why I did not use the table form the 'spell' section in the CRB)?
That said, the GM has made her ruling, and I for one consider the issue to be closed.
Developer derped, and did try to correct it later(by saying it's polymorph). Failing dev input I'd probably be fine ruling it any way. Since it'd be grey area.
Most stuff to do with changing shape(like Shapechange abilities), use polymorph table. Yet to see anything that said use monster advancement table as yet...
Note that should you try this on a PFS table, expect them to rule the way I did.
Also had I known you were on the monster adjustment table, I would have corrected you right at the start on how I viewed things were, but again I can't predict everything you come up with heh. You're too creative ^^
I may get a rough idea...but I mostly won't see the full picture.
Besides I generally trust players to know what they are doing, and saying oh if you do this bear in mind X, Y and Z, is kinda condescending.
if it was not meant to matter, why make it medium, instead of small-sized?
Two words: riding weasels.
Riding tumor hawks too.
Hey where are you on vacation?
Well if it doesn't function as the polymorph spell what does it function as? Because you use the chat to apply the modifiers to tiny and then it says to use the spell modifiers. Polymorph specifically says it functions as beast shape for animal and magical beasts forms. Then when you check that spell it gives the modifiers for medium magical beasts.
Every single spell/monster table that goes from small to medium includes at least a +2 str modifier. :) The poly one doesn't because it's in addition to the spell effect, not to be used separately.
Crappy dev input and probably why it's not a fan or errata :P
It functions as a polymorph effect as per described in the school of magic under polymorph, and the +2 str was the spell effect so to speak.
And devs say what they will, I just follow.
Also - go take your turns. When I say party up, you don't need to wait until your init to post.
Forgive me, the next part here will be a wall of text and phones don't do it well so I need to break up.
Copied from magic section:
Polymorph: a polymorph spell transforms your physical body to take on the shape of another creature. While these spells make you appear to be the creature, granting you a +10 bonus on Disguise skill checks, they do not grant you all of the abilities and powers of the creature. Each polymorph spell allows you to assume the form of a creature of a specific type, granting you a number of bonuses to your ability scores and a bonus to your natural armor. In addition, each polymorph spell can grant you a number of other benefits, including movement types, resistances, and senses. If the form you choose grants these benefits, or a greater ability of the same type, you gain the listed benefit. If the form grants a lesser ability of the same type, you gain the lesser ability instead. Your base speed changes to match that of the form you assume. If the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing. The DC for any of these abilities equals your DC for the polymorph spell used to change you into that form.
In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks. These attacks are based on your base attack bonus, modified by your Strength or Dexterity as appropriate, and use your Strength modifier for determining damage bonuses.
If a polymorph spell causes you to change size, apply the size modifiers appropriately, changing your armor class, attack bonus, Combat Maneuver Bonus, and Stealth skill modifiers. Your ability scores are not modified by this change unless noted by the spell.
Unless otherwise noted, polymorph spells cannot be used to change into specific individuals. Although many of the fine details can be controlled, your appearance is always that of a generic member of that creature’s type. Polymorph spells cannot be used to assume the form of a creature with a template or an advanced version of a creature.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size.
While under the effects of a polymorph spell, you lose all extraordinary and supernatural abilities that depend on your original form (such as keen senses, scent, and darkvision), as well as any natural attacks and movement types possessed by your original form. You also lose any class features that depend upon form, but those that allow you to add features (such as sorcerers that can grow claws) still function. While most of these should be obvious, the GM is the final arbiter of what abilities depend on form and are lost when a new form is assumed. Your new form might restore a number of these abilities if they are possessed by the new form.
You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.
If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is smaller than Small or larger than Medium, first adjust its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the following table before applying the bonuses granted by the polymorph spell.(see Table: Ability Adjustments from Size Changes)
Did you rejigger your build? Or sticking with it with the +6 str total instead of +10?
He's not using his familiar anymore =(
I don't personally find a familiar with 15 str and 3 attacks a round a big loss but I guess it's up to interpretation.
I think the more problematic thing is that since it's considered as a polymorph effect, later uses of monstrous physique will not be so beneficial. Else it'd be +10 str base, and +4 more from monstrous physique, total of +14.
If it helps, Howard, I am sorry you were caught flatfooted on the change that was made, but I think the devs pissed off a lot of people when crane wing was errataed too.
I am willing to houserule that the bonus of +6 str from mauler will stack with whatever polymorphs you wish to stack on it later, if you want me to.
But to me 19 str at level 3 without any magic items at all seems a tad too high.
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I may come around to using Claude again - just not for the moment; I need to come to terms with the changes, and find some way to make them palatable.
(Generally, because I usually play PFS, I don't look at Dev clarifications, since they aren't PFS-legal... which is why, as Mort says, I was caught 'flat-footed' by this.)
I just have difficulty not playing the 'best' build that I can (which is why I no longer play Summoners in PFS - why subject myself to the 'Diet Coke' of Unchained Summoners, after having enjoyed Chained Summoners?** It is also why I dislike 'vanilla' Spiritualists, who have a phantom - I view phantoms as basically being extremely-watered-down Eidolons).
You'll need to drop Mauler though.
For benchmarking, a bear animal companion would have 4.5(3)+3 con+3 toughness =19 hp at level 3, and only 16 strength. Admittedly at 4,that strength increases to 20, but they don't get further improvements. 17 ac.
As a player I go test weird stuff for science, like variant channeling Clerics to hangover, on hit fear builds... I won't top DPS charts but whether my characters are cheesy or not is up to interpretation.
As a GM, I rather not too much power disparity since it leads to Angel Summoner and BMX bandit problems
I agree on Phantoms being underpowered eidolons, which suggests a certain amount of cheese in me.
I also do not like to screw up people's character concepts.
I remember the good old days in 3.5 where I stacked dragon cohort and halfling outrider and made Zeus with his lightning bolt lance.
Hmm...you might get a chance to see Hastur=o
Sorry Vincent. I never played 3.5. I'm also rather new to this hobby, having started 5 years ago.
Realized that the previous link didn't work.
BTW for all prospective unicorn watchers - step off the path first.
Choices - after you deal with the ghoul, do you want to full clear the courtyard? Doing so will result in a fight with the unicorn.
There's no other way, unfortunately. The other possible way was barred by a wall of rocks
I'll just move you back the way you came after this, through the now thinner fog.