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I am certain this info is out there, but my search-foo is failing me today.
How is the strength increase for the mauler's battle form calculated? Does it matter what the original size of the familiar was? Is going from tiny to medium different from going from small to medium?
I recall this being hotly debated when the archetype first came out, but now I can't find the threads.
yes, you look at the polymorph section of the magic schools in transmutation. In there there's a table, that if the creature is smaller than small or larger than large you apply those numbers before the spells effect. So if you have tiny or diminutive familiar it gets bonus to str, but penalties to dex too I think. The "strongest" option is the fox familiar fyi.
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If you start off tiny, you get an extra +4 str/-2 dex when you go to small. +6/-4 if you start as diminutive.
Other than that, no changes except for what the archetypes specifically states (you know, the +2 for battle form, plus the scaling str bonus). That usually means a +7 for tiny and +9 for diminutive.
It means that a fox starts off with 16 str at level 3. So fairly decent. Birds and a lot of flying familiars get 13 str to start off with, in case you want to use them as mounts.
If you start off tiny, you get an extra +4 str/-2 dex when you go to small. +6/-4 if you start as diminutive.What if you go to medium (as the Battleform ability states) rather than small?
The linked table in the polymorph section doesn't have any entries for an adjusted size of medium.
Do we just apply the values for growing to small size and the extra bonuses offered by the archetype and then also apply any additional effects of being medium (such as being useful for flanking)?
Because there is none for moving from small to medium.
As far as size tables are concerned, small and medium are basically the same thing. This is a simplicity issue since PCs can be small or medium. So instead of giving them different rules, they are just lumped together.
It is only characters that start at sizes that PCs can't start off with that get special treatment.
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You use this table to determine the effects. If it were a polymorph effect, it would have said so. Since it doesn't, it is not, and therefore you don't use the polymorph rules and instead use the general rules for size changes.
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For a summary of most of the mauler talk:
Mark Seifter wrote the archetype and clarified it's meant to use the polymorph rules.
Normal is shape-changing effects, polymorph subschool section. You get nothing for going from Small to Medium. +7 at level 3. That effect should have also said it was a polymorph effect.
He forgot to include mentioning polymorphing rules because he assumes nothing but monster creation uses the monster advancement table Ravingdork is referencing.
For Ravingdork and anyone else wanting to use the monster advancement, Mark basically went,
"It's your game, do whatever.".
I have always been in favor of gaming groups getting together and deciding to play however they like best, no matter what that may be and regardless of what the exact ruling may be. Heck, give them even more Strength if your group likes. This is the General Discussion forum and not the Rules Forum, after all.
For PFS, use polymorphing rules as that's what's clarified by the developer, and won't cause stupidly strong familiars showing up in the table that would get arguments and dice thrown at everyone.
Mark should try to get that errata'd then. Until he does, the rules are as they are.
I'd go with the polymorph table since that's the more conservative option. It seems less likely to cause discord in the short term and less likely to draw a powerful blow from the nerfbat later on. On the other hand, I wonder what PFS will do since they're supposed to follow the official rules and the official rules here seem a little unclear.
Do folks think that adding, "This is a polymorph effect" near the end of the description for Battle Form would clear things up sufficiently?
I doubt many people are even aware of the polymorph chart's existence and just use the advancement chart for everything. It's honestly really confusing that there are two different charts. Maybe it's a balance thing but life would be simpler if everything used the same size chart.
I doubt many people are even aware of the polymorph chart's existence and just use the advancement chart for everything. It's honestly really confusing that there are two different charts. Maybe it's a balance thing but life would be simpler if everything used the same size chart.
Well, there are multiple reasons for the polymorph chart.
The tiny fairy that used a power to turn human? It would not be very convincing if it only had 3 str after transforming.
And it is sometimes in your favor as a player- if you baleful polymorph a dragon into a small dog, then you kind of want it to have less strength, no?
I doubt many people are even aware of the polymorph chart's existence and just use the advancement chart for everything. It's honestly really confusing that there are two different charts. Maybe it's a balance thing but life would be simpler if everything used the same size chart.Well, there are multiple reasons for the polymorph chart.
The tiny fairy that used a power to turn human? It would not be very convincing if it only had 3 str after transforming.
And it is sometimes in your favor as a player- if you baleful polymorph a dragon into a small dog, then you kind of want it to have less strength, no?
I'm thinking you may have misunderstood. I'm saying that all size changes should have used the same chart. Right now there is a separate chart for creature size changes and for polymorph effects. Those charts should have been consolidated.
I had this same issue earlier using hero lab. On paper I used what ravendork used, but the guys at hero lab told me it was a polymorph effect.
This was surprising since the form never says that. A quick search firm the developer saying it was s polymorph, but leaving that out sure does change things.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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This was surprising since the form never says that. A quick search firm the developer saying it was s polymorph
I guess it makes more sense, that any effect that modifies your size is a polymorph effect unless it is something like the monster advancement rules that in effect alter the base creature. Basically how it would be as an adult.
I'm thinking you may have misunderstood. I'm saying that all size changes should have used the same chart. Right now there is a separate chart for creature size changes and for polymorph effects. Those charts should have been consolidated.I doubt many people are even aware of the polymorph chart's existence and just use the advancement chart for everything. It's honestly really confusing that there are two different charts. Maybe it's a balance thing but life would be simpler if everything used the same size chart.Well, there are multiple reasons for the polymorph chart.
The tiny fairy that used a power to turn human? It would not be very convincing if it only had 3 str after transforming.
And it is sometimes in your favor as a player- if you baleful polymorph a dragon into a small dog, then you kind of want it to have less strength, no?
The size chart isn't ever really used by the PCs. It is there for the GM when they want to create or modify creatures.
Just look at spells like Enlarge Person or Alter Person. They never follow the "Monster Advancement Size Chart". I don't think until later (5th level or so) that spells give anything comparable (Righteous Might). It is only confusing if you think that PCs should use the monster advancement for some reason. As a player you are better off forgetting that table existed, as it isn't for you.
Just look at spells like Enlarge Person or Alter Person. They never follow the "Monster Advancement Size Chart". I don't think until later (5th level or so) that spells give anything comparable (Righteous Might). It is only confusing if you think that PCs should use the monster advancement for some reason. As a player you are better off forgetting that table existed, as it isn't for you.
Enlarge person doesn't seem to use either chart. It isn't a polymorph effect anyway. I can't find an alter person spell. You may have meant alter self, but again the chart wouldn't factor into that since most characters are small/medium already, but the spell lists what bonuses it gives.
But that aside, I still contend that many people aren't aware the polymorph table even exists, because I didn't until recently. It's at the tail end of a chapter that you only want to read if you are a heavy polymorph caster. And if you google "pathfinder size change" or "prd size change", the first link is for monster advancement. And a link to a polymorph page isn't even listed. So, people thinking the mauler uses the monster advancement table makes sense. And I expect that's the way many tables rule, just because they don't know better.
So, that might be a fun game for someone with too much time. Try to guessingly google your way to the polymorph size chart without using the words polymorph or transmutation.
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I never knew the monster creation size change table existed. I've never tried to create my monsters. But I knew the polymorph table existed. The polymorph table makes sense because we aren't creating a monster. Thus you wouldn't use the monster creation table.
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I just calculated the effective strength of all regular familiars in battle form (my criteria was "min 14 STR")
Here are the winners:
Compsognathus; Master gains a +4 bonus on Initiative checks; STR 15, 1 bite (poison)
Crab, king; Master gains a +2 bonus on CMB checks to start and maintain a grapple; STR 14, 2 claws (grab)
Fox; Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves; STR 16, 1 bite
Goat; Master gains a +3 bonus on Survival checks; STR 15, 1 gore
Octopus, blue-ringed; Master gains a +3 bonus on Swim checks; STR 15, 1 bite (poison) and 1 tentacles (grab)
Pig; Master gains a +3 bonus on Diplomacy checks; STR 14, 1 bite
Raccoon; Master gains a +3 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks; STR 15, 1 bite
Wallaby; Master gains a +3 bonus on Acrobatics checks; STR 15, 1 kick
I will now look quickly at the Improved Familiars...
Improved Familiars can't be maulers as they don't have the speak with others of it's kind ability to trade out.
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Improved Familiars: for these I raised the criteria to STR 16 or more.
Beheaded; Neutral evil; 3rd; STR 18
Caypup; Chaotic good; 7th; STR 18
Daemon, cacodaemon; Neutral evil; 7th; STR 19
Devil, imp; Lawful evil; 7th; STR 17
Dragon, faerie; Within one step of Chaotic Good; 7th; STR 16
Dragon, tidepool; Within one step of Chaotic neutral; 7th; STR 18
Drake, shadow; Evil; 7th; STR 16
Dweomercat Cub; Chaotic Neutral; 7th; STR 16
Elemental, Small (Earth - I didn't check others); Neutral; 5th; STR 19
Familiar, clockwork; Any; 7th; STR 17
Gremlin, nuglub; Chaotic evil; 7th; STR 16
Inevitable, arbiter; Lawful neutral; 7th; STR 18
Mephit (Earth - I didn't check others); Neutral; 7th; STR 16
Nycar; Chaotic neutral; 7th; STR 20
Pooka; Neutral; 7th; STR 17
Qlippoth, cythnigot; Chaotic evil; 7th; STR 19
Wolpertinger; Neutral; 5th; STR 16
(Please note all above STR calcs assume a 3rd level familiar... familiars that are only available at 5th add another 1 pt. of STR beyond what is shown above, and those available at 7th add another 2 pts. beyond what is shown above)
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Question in ref. to Nycars and other familiars with the aquatic subtype: Aquatic subtype says the creature can't breathe air if it doesn't have the amphibious subtype... is that always in effect or has there been an errata on this? (reading 'aquatic' entries it appears many creatures with that subtype seem to hunt on land...)
Edit: I am aware the Nycar is amphibious, yes. :)
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I don't really mind that I can't use Mauler on an improved familiar. I do wish I could use Valet though. I've got a cohort with a raven familiar who might be a little cooler as a nosoi psychopomp, but I'm not sure it is worth giving up faster crafting and what amounts to Flyby Attack for delivering touch spells. If improved Maulers were allowed I guess the nosoi could have Str 18 at 9th level though - potentially pretty effective combined with Raging Song and Lesser Beast Totem but not really what I'm looking for even if it were allowed
Just look at spells like Enlarge Person or Alter Person. They never follow the "Monster Advancement Size Chart". I don't think until later (5th level or so) that spells give anything comparable (Righteous Might). It is only confusing if you think that PCs should use the monster advancement for some reason. As a player you are better off forgetting that table existed, as it isn't for you.Enlarge person doesn't seem to use either chart. It isn't a polymorph effect anyway. I can't find an alter person spell. You may have meant alter self, but again the chart wouldn't factor into that since most characters are small/medium already, but the spell lists what bonuses it gives.
But that aside, I still contend that many people aren't aware the polymorph table even exists, because I didn't until recently. It's at the tail end of a chapter that you only want to read if you are a heavy polymorph caster. And if you google "pathfinder size change" or "prd size change", the first link is for monster advancement. And a link to a polymorph page isn't even listed. So, people thinking the mauler uses the monster advancement table makes sense. And I expect that's the way many tables rule, just because they don't know better.
I'd actually say that is more an issue of people googling things to find builds as opposed to actually reading the rules, being familiar with them and understanding how the game works to make their own. Searching for relevant strings of characters, opposed to relevant content pertaining to your question.
That's the age we live in though. A lot of tables don't even have the books. People use apps and reference documents these days.
But even if you have the books, a guy who mostly plays fighters isn't likely to read that deeply in the magic section. Your average person isn't going to memorize the entire rule set. Most people don't have that kind of free time to read rules they don't need on the spot. The people in this forum are exceptional in rules knowledge, and even us regulars misremember or misinterpret rules from time to time.
I just calculated the effective strength of all regular familiars in battle form (my criteria was "min 14 STR")
Here are the winners:
Compsognathus; Master gains a +4 bonus on Initiative checks; STR 15, 1 bite (poison)
Crab, king; Master gains a +2 bonus on CMB checks to start and maintain a grapple; STR 14, 2 claws (grab)
Fox; Master gains a +2 bonus on Reflex saves; STR 16, 1 bite
Goat; Master gains a +3 bonus on Survival checks; STR 15, 1 gore
Octopus, blue-ringed; Master gains a +3 bonus on Swim checks; STR 15, 1 bite (poison) and 1 tentacles (grab)
Pig; Master gains a +3 bonus on Diplomacy checks; STR 14, 1 bite
Raccoon; Master gains a +3 bonus on Sleight of Hand checks; STR 15, 1 bite
Wallaby; Master gains a +3 bonus on Acrobatics checks; STR 15, 1 kick
I will now look quickly at the Improved Familiars...
I'd like an honorable mention for the Owl. Master gains +3 Perception in dim light (have a PC with low light or Darkvision); only STR 13 but x2 talons (1d8+1).
That means your mauler can get in a Full Attack of at least x2 talons +3 [+4 if attacking from overhead] (1d8+1) for an avg damage on 2 hits of 11 damage. Add in the fact that if you're Small or Tiny you could be riding the thing; you can drop Mage Armor on it and's still got a respectable 18 AC; if you finish off what your familiar hit this round and it has at least 1 HD your mauler gets his Bond Forged in Blood bonus and I thought this familiar was at least worth mentioning.
That's the age we live in though. A lot of tables don't even have the books. People use apps and reference documents these days.
But even if you have the books, a guy who mostly plays fighters isn't likely to read that deeply in the magic section. Your average person isn't going to memorize the entire rule set. Most people don't have that kind of free time to read rules they don't need on the spot. The people in this forum are exceptional in rules knowledge, and even us regulars misremember or misinterpret rules from time to time.
But you are missing or still not addressing the point. PC abilities don't act like the chart you are referencing basically ever, so what makes you think that this particular PC ability should?
Using admittantly useful tools, like the PRD or apps is fine. Suggesting that the rules be changed because people use tools like that as crutches and remain ignorant of things that aren't hand fed to them/don't pop up first on a search... Doesn't make sense to me. It's there if you decide to spend a little time reading and comprehend what the game is doing. I mean if you don't have time to read, you probably shouldn't be upset when your character is audited or you are told you might be incorrect. But chances are, the people who do this are going to be upset because the rules say the thing is less powerful than the table they "found" and was the incorrect one, then spend as much time arguing as they could have spent researching the rules and coming up with the "correct" answer.
The table has big numbers, that aren't typically granted to PCs, so that alone is often enough for people to "stop looking" instead of digging to see what is down there.
I never argued that mauler doesn't use the polymorph chart. Just that having two separate charts for size changes is confusing. And that a majority of tables are going to be using the monster advancement chart, because it is a lot easier to find and more obvious.
But if you want a counter argument. A familiar is a type of monster/creature. It advances in size. Thus you use the monster advancement chart, to cover its size change.
And another reason people may think you use the advancement chart is because all of the other pets do. If your animal companion or eidolon goes up in size, you use that chart. And the mauler's size change is also essentially permanent since it has no duration and thus acts as instant in duration.
Really if the devs wanted to clarify the ability, it should simply work "as Alter Self with permanent duration". Then polymorph doesn't even need to be named dropped.
Your counter argument isn't valid. Familiars are a class ability for player characters (core rules). Same as animal companions and eidolons. Animal companions/Eidolons follow their [i]own[/] rules, which also happen to coincide with the table at times. The times they do are calculated and predetermined for mechanical balance.
Your counter argument isn't valid. Familiars are a class ability for player characters (core rules). Same as animal companions and eidolons. Animal companions/Eidolons follow their [i]own[/] rules, which also happen to coincide with the table at times. The times they do are calculated and predetermined for mechanical balance.
The familiar is a class ability that uses stats gained from the Bestiary. Unless you are suggesting I can find the stats for my rat familiar from the core rulebook. And since the stats are determined from the Bestiary, so might the ways in which those stats increase.
I'd guess that a lot of folks are unaware that a Tiny familiar polymorphed into human form with Alter Self should get a +4 Str from the polymorph size change chart as well as the +2 bonus listed in Alter Self. That isn't quite as good as the Mauler bonuses, but it might suffice for many improved familiars.
That makes me wonder which familiars if any would be able to use a Greater Hat of Disguise.
Your counter argument isn't valid. Familiars are a class ability for player characters (core rules). Same as animal companions and eidolons. Animal companions/Eidolons follow their [i]own[/] rules, which also happen to coincide with the table at times. The times they do are calculated and predetermined for mechanical balance.The familiar is a class ability that uses stats gained from the Bestiary. Unless you are suggesting I can find the stats for my rat familiar from the core rulebook. And since the stats are determined from the Bestiary, so might the ways in which those stats increase.
Those "stats" aren't 100% taken from the book though, they are a skeleton used for the player characters ability which alters them quite significantly. Unless you are arguing the familiar is completely limited to the statistics taken from the bestiary? Because that isn't the case is it?
Those "stats" aren't 100% taken from the book though, they are a skeleton used for the player characters ability which alters them quite significantly. Unless you are arguing the familiar is completely limited to the statistics taken from the bestiary? Because that isn't the case is it?
The stats are taken from the Bestiaries, except for exceptions listed in the familiar description, such as intelligence.
Use the basic statistics for a creature of the familiar’s kind as described in the Pathfinder RPG Bestiary, but with the following changes.
So, if my familiar is a medium size rat, i would use the statistics from the Bestiary as if my familiar were a rat of that size.
Of course, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, but you can't say there aren't reasons for people to think the mauler uses the other growth table.
On further review, the biggest argument against using the polymorph chart is Enlarge Person. Magical effects, that increase size but aren't explicitly polymorph effects, can not use the polymorph chart.
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As I've said before, when I freelanced this I wrote that sentence to remind people of the polymorph chart (since most GMs and players I've seen seem to forget about it when applying polymorph effects and that would be sad for Tiny familiars); this would distinguish it from effects that don't use it like enlarge person. It would be better if I (or later Dev or Edit passes) had also added "This is a polymorph effect" to help lower the confusion. Even so, it's true that I hadn't even thought of the other chart while writing it since there are literally no effects in the game that can cause you to use that bestiary chart for a temporary state change. It is only for building your own new monsters (particularly by modding old ones), and it never has been (and I'm pretty sure never will be) used for state changes or transformations.
It is only for building your own new monsters (particularly by modding old ones), and it never has been (and I'm pretty sure never will be) used for state changes or transformations.
Isn't a lycanthrope's hybrid form that differs in size from the 'human' form based on the monster chart instead of the polymorph one? That's seems about as same kind of temporary state change as the mauler. (no limit on change time)
It is only for building your own new monsters (particularly by modding old ones), and it never has been (and I'm pretty sure never will be) used for state changes or transformations.Isn't a lycanthrope's hybrid form that differs in size from the 'human' form based on the monster chart instead of the polymorph one? That's seems about as same kind of temporary state change as the mauler. (no limit on change time)
Not exactly:
Ability Scores: +2 Wis, –2 Cha in all forms; +2 Str, +2 Con in hybrid and animal forms. Lycanthropes have enhanced senses but are not fully in control of their emotions and animalistic urges. In addition to these adjustments to the base creature's stats, a lycanthrope's ability scores change when he assumes hybrid or animal form. In human form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are unchanged from the base creature's form. In animal and hybrid form, the lycanthrope's ability scores are the same as the base creature's or the base animal's, whichever ability score is higher.
The lycanthrope is pretty byzantine and just switches around like old school wild shape. Werebear even goes from even to odd Strength in hybrid form, oddly enough. There are other byzantine creatures in bestiaries with monster powers that give them inconsistent stat changes that don't match anything (like spriggans, which are close to the Bestiary chart but have 2 too high Dex for it and are missing 2 natural armor).
Yeah, I still wonder if just adding "This is a polymorph effect" to the end might be enough to let people who want the intent find it and prove to others that it exists. Those who really don't want it would still be free to ignore it.
I didn't even know the polymorph chart existed until I saw this thread.
The problem is that PFS has to use RAW. And I don't know of anything other than a polymorph spell that gets to use the polymorph chart, which is the same argument against the monster advancement chart. So we have two charts for size changes and arguments for neither working.
So by RAW, if you can't use the polymorph chart and you can't use the the advancement chart, then the mauler can't get any size bonuses for changing size in PFS. The RAI is irrelevant in PFS or shield champions would be proficient in shields.
Where'd my post go? Are the mods in the habit of removing messages now without even stating why they were removed???
As currently written, you could argue that only the Strength modifier for changing size is mentioned in the text and thus only the strength portion of the table is used. So a mauler doesn't technically lose any dexterity for changing size.
If there ever is a reprint, you could add the errata and still save on space.
Battle Form (Su): At 3rd level, a mauler gains the ability to transform into a larger, more ferocious form and back at will. In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and the mauler gains a +2 bonus to Strength (this stacks with the normal Strength adjustments for increasing in size). This ability replaces deliver touch spells.
Battle Form (Su): At 3rd level, a mauler gains the ability to transform into a larger, more ferocious form and back at will. In battle form, the mauler’s size becomes Medium and the mauler gains a +2 bonus to Strength in addition to the polymorph modifiers for changing size. This ability replaces deliver touch spells.
Melkiador's proposed wording looks pretty good to me.
A Wizard can't take Improved Familiar feat to apply to familiar with Mauler archetype. Reason stated on this thread by:
"Chess Pwn Tue, May 26, 2015, 11:58 am
Improved Familiars can't be maulers as they don't have the speak with others of it's kind ability to trade out."
And I agree.
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BUT I have another argument for you all to hash out.
The Pact Wizard archetypes True Form ability may be the loop hole.
"At 7th level, a pact wizard's familiar reveals its true form, automatically transforming into an outsider improved familiar of the chosen subtype."
I argue that if your familiar is already a Mauler Archetype, it will "automatically" transform into the outsider improved familiar. This is NOT an application of the feat that has requirements. So it does not need to have speak with animals of it own kind to trade out. This is a Extraordinary Ability (Ex) of the Pact Wizard class.