Good to know! Sorry I'm lagging behind again, I'm having anxiety over making final choices, worried I already nerfed my build. >_<
I made a thread in the Advice forum to pick some brains on whether I need an adjustment to make her more viable in combat without sacrificing too much casting. Please feel free to chime in!
Ramage, if it looks like I'm going to be a liability with such low Str would it be possible to make a gradual shift from more dexterous Sera to stronger Sera, like transfer a point per level? =/
A casting-heavy DD is no liability. Being able to fly at will is a big help for a caster at later levels, and if we own the heritage and run with it, it can be a selling point for the kingdom.
If you really want to be more melee, you can shift points to strength. If that's the case, you should use a longspear so you don't have to get up close and personal with the enemies.
I thought that too... and I think we'll have an extra one that Maja decided she didn't need? But of course the eventual idea is to be able to step in and and claw, claw, bite, delivering either sufficient bonus from Str to damage or touch attack spell damage and maybe participate in flanking/teamwork stuff too.
We grrls have to rise up and assert our strength! By standing in front of our squishy man-friend. *pinches Kivan's cheek affectionately*
By the by, someone did ask me what the wizard's focus was and while color-spray twins was fun, I think it's effectiveness will be coming to an end soon. We should probably try and cover different spells between us in the future.
But I won't get my wings for a while yet, level 14-15 minimum and maybe as late as 17 depending on how I take my levels. Kivan will fly before Sera! XD
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Caster dragon disciple is in no way, shape, or form an underpowered or gimped character. You lose only a couple levels of spellcasting progression, and gain major benefits in terms of stats, hp, and abilities. You should look into getting Robes of Arcane Heritage to get your wings at 11th level.
Yes, you may rebuild your character should you so desire. My only request is that changes be role-played. Given the outstanding RP so far, I hardly think that'll be a problem. In a world where gods, dragons, and wizards warp space and time all day erryday, I hardly think a strength boost following a "Rocky" training montage is out of place.
You should keep in mind that there will be a lot of character downtime in this adventure path. The meatspace game I ran covered about ten years of in-game time, and the characters were fabulously wealthy. This led them to take the item creation feats to custom tailor their gear to their desires - for 50% of the "list price". Wearing a STR/DEX belt and an INT/CHA hat might not be a bad goal.
Giving your character sheet a closer look, you should pick another trait besides Ease of Faith. Ease of Faith and Noble Born both grant a trait bonus to Diplomacy, and trait bonuses do not stack.
You all are also welcome to take on a drawback to gain a third trait. I find that a well-played drawback adds great depth to a character. My playtest investigator in skull and shackles has the hedonistic drawback, and many fun moments have been had as I desperately try to get my fix on the middle of a pirate ship!
If you're not dead set on the caster-centric DD and wish to mix it up in melee as well, you might give some thought to taking Magus levels. Oterisk only kind of brushes with this character build in his otherwise fantastic guide. Levels in DD grant you "+1 level of existing arcane spellcasting class". This does not have to be Sorcerer! Taking a single level of Sorcerer and four levels of Magus to get into DD yields a pretty darn good dragon-flavored gish. You'd work up to having a claw/claw/bite/cast spell/claw spellstrike full attack. Your character would end up with much less spellcasting ability than the "puff the magic dragon" DD, but would have fantastic melee ability. Copper is a good bloodline choice for a dragon-magus as well - magi get a lot of milage out of their 1st level spell slots, and hitting somebody with an intensified, empowered corrosive touch boosted further with your copper dragon +1 energy damage per die to acid is pretty powerful. I'm not trying to sell this to you, just mentioning that it's a direction you can take Seraphina. With Kivan being a full arcane caster (and from what I can tell, no intention to deviate from the God Wizard path), you have the freedom to do an unusual caster. If you're interested, I'll post a sample build for your consideration.
If that wall of text has you thinking "I'd rather just cast" then keep on truckin' with your casting-centric character and use the claws for emergency backup.
I've seen the kind of damage a magus can pile on, but I thought it had to be a spontaneous caster to stack with the DD? Or is it just that you need to be able to cast 1st level spells spontaneously?
It's intriguing, but maybe too MAD? I can't fathom picking up a prepared caster class that depends on her 12 Int... Item creation or no!
I have played a reach bard and found her a pretty satisfying experience, and I was body guarding with my combat reflexes rather than dealing damage. I will do my best to actually reach a decision and make needed fixes and post it tomorrow!
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you have to be able to cast 1st level arcane spells spontaneously to enter the dragon disciple prestige class. Once you're in, the boost in arcane caster level can be applied to any arcane class, prepared or spontaneous.
You'd want higher than 12 int, but Magi actually don't need a huge int score. hardly any of their spells involve saving throws, the primary reason for boosting your casting stat.
I might go STR 14 DEX 12 CON 12 INT 14 WIS 11 CHA 16 for a claw-slashin' spell-slingin' dragon magus. DD will boost that strength to 18 and int to 16 in due course.
There's a freaking Paladin/Sorcerer/DD in my group which fights with sword and shield, so... you can make anything you want! Being effective is part of the fun, but I don't think you can get it wrong with sorcerer levels, since you get so many spells that you will hardly have nothing to do.
I also believe that the dungeons in this adventure cannot be that long, so we would have plenty of time to replenish our spells and supplies...
Whoa whoa, now I'm getting interested!
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I'm 3/4 asleep after work so these builds are kind of skeletal. First one up is the chassis to get you into DD. You'd boost your AC to 20 with shield. I reflavored the trait "wayang spellhunter" to Medvyed Spellhunter: You blend your family's love for the hunt and the wilderness with your own spell abilities. Your main magic damage sources are a corrosive grasp from a 1st level slot for 5d4+5 damage (average 17.5 damage) and an empowered corrosive grasp from a 2nd level slot (5d4+5)*(1.5) (average 26.25 damage)
copper champion
Human Magus 4/Sorcerer 1
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 16, touch 11, flat-footed 15 (+5 armor, +1 Dex)
hp 39 (4d8+1d6+9)
Fort +6, Ref +3, Will +7
Resist noble born - medvyed
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +7 (1d4+4)
Special Attacks bloodline arcana: draconic, claws, spellstrike
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +4):
1st (4/day)—
0 (at will)—
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 5th; concentration +7):
2nd—
1st—
0 (at will)—
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 16
Base Atk +3; CMB +6; CMD 17
Feats - Custom Feat -, Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Intensified Spell
Traits magical knack, noble born - medvyed, Medvyed Spellhunter
Drawback:
Skills Diplomacy +8; Racial Modifiers noble born - medvyed
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ arcane pool, bloodlines (draconic), magus arcana (spell blending [2 spells of lower level]), spell combat, spell recall
Other Gear +1 lamellar (leather) armor, amulet of mighty fists +1, belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resistance +1, 4290 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool (+1) (4/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Acid] spells.
Claws (6 rounds/day) (Ex) 2 Claw atacks deal 1d4 damage
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Empower Spell Numeric effects of a spell are increased 50%. +2 Levels.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magical Knack (Magus) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Noble Born - Medvyed +2 Diplomacy vs. Fey, +1 will save vs. fey spells and supernatural abilities.
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
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after four levels of DD, your corrosive grasp is intensified in the 1st level slots for 7d4+7 damage (average 24.5) and empowered intensified in 3rd level slots for (7d4+7)*1.5 (average 36.75) damage.
copper champion
Human Dragon Disciple 4/Magus 4/Sorcerer 1
NG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +1; Senses Perception +0
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 11, flat-footed 20 (+7 armor, +1 Dex, +3 natural)
hp 75 (4d12+4d8+1d6+13)
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +11
Resist dragon resistances, acid 5, noble born - medvyed
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +15 (1d4+7), bite +15 (1d6+7)
Special Attacks bloodline arcana: draconic, breath weapon, dragon bite, claws, spellstrike
Sorcerer Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +6):
1st (5/day)—mage armor
0 (at will)—
Magus Spells Prepared (CL 9th; concentration +11):
3rd—
2nd—
1st—
0 (at will)—
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 11, Cha 20
Base Atk +6; CMB +13; CMD 24
Feats - Custom Feat -, Combat Casting, Empower Spell, Eschew Materials, Intensified Spell, Power Attack, two unspent
Traits magical knack, noble born - medvyed
Skills Diplomacy +16, Knowledge (arcana) +10; Racial Modifiers noble born - medvyed
Languages Common, Draconic, Elven
SQ arcane pool, bloodlines (draconic), magus arcana (spell blending [2 spells of lower level]), spell combat, spell recall
Other Gear +3 lamellar (leather) armor, amulet of mighty fists +2, belt of giant strength +4, cloak of resistance +3, headband of alluring charisma +4, 4290 GP
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Special Abilities
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Arcane Pool (+1) (4/day) (Su) Infuse own power into a held weapon, granting enhancement bonus or selected item powers.
Bloodline Arcana: Draconic (Ex) +1 damage per die for [Acid] spells.
Breath Weapon (1/day) (DC 17) (Su) 1/day, Breath Weapon deals 4d6 Acid damage, DC 17.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Dragon Bite (Ex) Bite atacks deal 1d6 damage
Dragon Resistances (Ex) You gain Acid resistance 5 and +1 natural armor
Empower Spell Numeric effects of a spell are increased 50%. +2 Levels.
Energy Resistance, Acid (5) You have the specified Energy Resistance against Acid attacks.
Eschew Materials Cast spells without materials, if component cost is 1 gp or less.
Intensified Spell You can cast a spell that can exceed its normal damage die cap by 5 (if you have the caster level to reach beyond that cap).
Magic Claws & Bite (8 rounds/day) (Ex) 2 Magic Claw attacks deal 1d4 damage. Bite attack deals 1d6 damage.
Magical Knack (Magus) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Noble Born - Medvyed +2 Diplomacy vs. Fey, +1 will save vs. fey spells and supernatural abilities.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Spell Recall (Su) Spend your Arcane Pool to recall spells you have already cast.
Spellstrike (Su) Deliver touch spells as part of a melee attack.
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if you choose the crossblooded archetype for sorcerer and take primal (earth) for your second bloodline you'll get another +1/die on your acid spells. Your corrosive grasp will do 1d4+2 per level, empowered to (1d4+2)*1.5
at 5th level: 5d4+10 avg 22.5, empowered to avg 33.75
at 9th level: 8d4+16 avg 36, empowered to avg 54.
I'm gonna crash now, hopefully will be more coherent when I wake. Just wanted to throw some benchmarks at you for your consideration. Ofc if you'd rather go full caster disregard this entirely
There's like 40 arrows left in the horses Maja.
Must be painful for them.
-Posted with Wayfinder
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jeez, I was out of it this morning. My apologies. I've put together a spreadsheet showing one way to develop a dragon magus: link
@idris /rimshot
Updated the image showing what you added, Maja.
o.O
My head hurts from trying to wrap my brain around it. That definitely turns her into a power house, but also something very different than I had in mind... I guess the magus is the only way to stack the touch spells onto her melee attack? That element of it is very attractive... I've never really looked at the magus before, and don't feel like I have a good understanding of the class and how to best use it, though.
This is the first time I've been able to play a sorceress, kinda feel like I'd be completely scrapping her original concept, just using the one level to buy her way into DD. Throwing out the baby with the bathwater, so to speak.
I think you can see I go into perfectionist mode and agonize anytime I have to make an important decision and flipping her to a prepared caster means I get to do that every day. Or maybe not if the idea is to just prep a boatload of corrosive grasp.
Sorry if I seem whiny, I'm off-balance due to RL stuff. I'm such a mess right now, I've actually wept over this build. Feel like I can't really turn that kind of damage down, but like it fundamentally changes who she is. I know you said not to feel like I had to take it because you suggested it, but you know the campaign and I feel like I'd be stupid to ignore such specific advice... Do you think it's a better plan for Sera than being more caster focused and versatile with the buffs and blasts like I had originally planned?
Hey Sera, don't feel like that. You only have to do what you want, and if you want to keep as a Sorcerer go ahead and do it!
I've stopped planning characters throughout because I feel it just loses the fun of it. Indeed if you want to be something like a prestige class you have to do some planning, but otherwise just move along with what you want and change on the go. Worst case scenario you will still be a sorceress, which is awesome and powerful.
Worry not about the build if you don't want to. Personally I like characters with lots of skills, disregarding damage, cause for me the game is much more off-combat and roleplaying than in battle.
For instance, I have a Brute rogue in another campaign, whose most powerful path would be to take 3 levels of the Weapon Master archetype (fighter). But my character is skilled and a real roleplayers, so he will not walk the martial path just because it's powerful. He will stick with his lots of skillpoints and be happy about it, although the rest of the party will do more damage than him.
Resuming, do what you WANT. This is not a contest.
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I'm just showing an option, there's literally zero pressure to take it. I'm not as familiar with sorcerer as I am with magus - I played a magus based DD through Rise of the Runelords with my IRL group. No need to stress at all. I'll look at melee-capable sorcerer builds tonight and crunch those numbers. If you pick a path and end up not liking it, it's not set in stone. there are even official paizo rules for totally rebuilding your character with just time and money. The point of these games is to have fun - so do what's fun and we'll go with it.
I do think it's kind of funny that Seraphina is grappling with her heritage "gosh who am I, really?" as you, the player, is having a "who is my character" moment IRL :D
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Yeah, the worst thing is when you do a thing with your character because it's powerful, but it doesn't feel like yours anymore.
-Posted with Wayfinder
I do think it's kind of funny that Seraphina is grappling with her heritage "gosh who am I, really?" as you, the player, is having a "who is my character" moment IRL :D
It is funny! And so very like me. This is what happens when you learn to do in depth character psych profiles for method acting before you ever play an RPG character beyond level 2. (Method acting is what I believe killed Heath Ledger, btw. Sharing head space with a psychopath is not a good idea, even though it produced an amazing performance.)
Ok, sorry I'm being such a fuss-bucket. I WILL figure it out. >_<
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ok! Did a little bit of number crunching and came up with a spreadsheet for pure sorcerer to DD
You would swap the trait Ease of Faith for Magical Knack (sorcerer) for this build. This would keep your caster level from falling behind at DD level 1 and 5, meaning you only lose one level of spellcasting from ten levels of DD as compared to going straight sorcerer.
In exchange, you get a bucket of goodies that is totally worth it. Not mentioned on the spreadsheet is that the DD grants d12 hp each level. I left most of the feats blank, because they don't matter so much for a main caster. You will want to pick up arcane strike early to boost damage, and power attack later when you have the attack bonus to spare. Power attack's never going to shine for you because of low base attack bonus, but it still helps. You'll want to hang on to combat casting. Craft Rod and Craft Wonderous item will be very helpful, although Kivan might be taking those feats.
As far as gear, you'd want to focus on getting the robe of arcane heritage, metamagic rods (maximize = yes, dazing = hnnnnnnggghhh!), STR belt and CHA headband. You'll also want a spell storing amulet of mighty fists.
Your combat playstyle would be typical sorcerer until you feel like meleeing. You'd cast one of your offensive touch spells, charge into combat, and start claw/claw/biting. Hitting with your natural attacks will discharge your touch spells, at which point you can trigger your spell storing amulet to zap them again. Imagine casting your (10d4+10)*1.5 corrosive touch, hitting a fool with it, and immediately getting another (10d4+10)*1.5 touch off. Life is good.
Hopefully this is more what you want, all of the sorcerer stuff, dragon themed goodies, melee ability, and tons of room for customization.
Yes, that looks much more like what I want for Sera. The universe re-aligned and my knots came untangled as I looked at it so it must be so! I'm up way past bedtime, so I'll update tomorrow.
Thanks so much for the help! I think it's a sign of your excellent GM'ing that I care enough about the character to obsess about it. ^_^
OK after some internal debate, I'm going to switch Idris to snake style and snake fang instead of Crane style. It seems to me to be better to be able to counter-attack instead, and being defensive doesn't quite fit her. I'll take crane style later, and use it in combination with snake style.
Don't forget to put at least 3 ranks in acrobatics:
Special
If you have 3 or more ranks in Acrobatics, you gain a +3 dodge bonus to AC when fighting defensively instead of the usual +2, and a +6 dodge bonus to AC when taking the total defense action instead of the usual +4.
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As we're doing character planning, something to consider. This is the adventure path to take Leadership in, should you so desire.
random fun fact: Medved means 'bear' in Russian, and is derived from the old slavic phrase 'honey-eater'. I found this while looking up how much that bear that was chasing Yatpank should weigh, and it led me to this page which is only interesting if you're into Linguistics IRL like I am.
Kivan will be picking up leadership in this campaign because he needs a helper for his research. Also, can we try and pick up an NPC as our cohort?
Considering how small was the population and how far and dangerous are the northern countries, I'm impressed that such a conclusion could be drawn. I believe they are pushing it too much, but still some of it makes sense.
Pretty may take some spell-less ranger levels, or the Vivisectionist I mentioned, later on in the campaign, but Leadership is out of the hook for her. Actually I'll probably go full rogue.
I wanted to double check about the traits, I took ease of faith to give Sera diplomacy as a class skill. From reading over the trait rules, it looked like maybe I could take both and the bonus to fey from Medvyed would effectively only be a +1 since they don't stack. I lose +3 without it as a class skill. =/
I wanted to maybe take the drawback Overprotective, but wondered if it might be tough if future battles split us up a lot.
So you would not need to pick a trait for that...
GM, would you consider it too late for Idris to make a change to her level 3? I'd like to have the monk include an archetype that switches stunning fist for something else, such as Sohei. Herolab seems to indicate the two can be combined, as MoMS replaces Flurry of Blows and Perfect Self, and Sohei replaces Stunning fist, Slow Fall, Abundant Step, fast movement and increased unarmed damage.
No post tonight, spent the whole day trying to figure out why fuel wasn't making it into my engine and arranging a ride to work.
I bet the Stag Lord has something to do with that...
That was the most rewarding Boar one has ever killed!
Pretty and Kivan working together, aye!!! To get the party killed, horray!!
We're not trying to get the party killed. Kivan just wants those fey to know what's going to happen if they continue doing what they have been doing.
Indeed, we are very much capable of defeating a couple of fairies who are messing up with us for about a week and we have not even seen them...
Anyway this is bullying and blackmailing, we should stop them at once!!!
Using the Alarm spell every night, and hopefully Kivan will catch the fey, or not if he doesn't the fey will have a very rude awakening of what it means to mess with a wizard.
Are you sharing your plans with the rest of us Kivan?
Well if the fey continue to prank Kivan he will prank them back by setting a tree on fire, or if they do anything to his books then Kivan will start a forest fire.
Umm, object to that plan. Do we really want to be the proud leaders of The Scorched Lands? Plus fire rules in a forest really could go TPK, fast.