If he's a sin magic specialist (sloth), his banned schools are already chosen: evocation & illusion. I'm ... mostly good with that, though at 1st-2nd level we'll miss having color spray.
On skills, I agree on the 4 core skills, then it is useful and appropriate him to have a rank in appraise - no need to take it further at higher levels - a rank in ride goes well with sloth, and one more knowledge, probably nobility works well enough.
Oh, and hi all.
I was going to say mostly the same thing. Color Spray is nice at the low levels but becomes mostly obsolete. I had specified a higher Strength than JustaGustofWind because even for all his Sloth, he's still going to get some muscle from carrying around his even more Slothful (and Gluttonous) 15 to 20 pound catpig.
Oh, and hi all.
Hello and welcome.
Regarding sin magic specialist: are we officially opting in for actual sin magic? Remember that if we do, we can never, ever cast an evocation or illusion spell, or even use a wand or scroll of such a spell (without using UMD).
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Going to jump in to this as it seems like fun.
I'm voting for actual sin magic. The extra spell slots are fantastic especially at lower levels and you can live without illusion and evocation. We could also take UMD for those situations where nothing but one of those schools will solve our problem.
Feats: Spell Focus(Conjuration) seems a given. I also would vote for the Accursed feat, if the GM can see a way to fit in to the story.
Traits: +1 vote for Scholar of the ancients and Dangerously Curious
Stats: Any high-int array will do. I like the idea of low strength and using unseen servant to carry the fat cat. :)
Skills: Kn(Arcana), Spellcraft, UMD, Kn(Nobility), anything else is gravy
I do believe we mean sin magic (sloth), as in the thing that bans (for real this time) evocation(Yay!) and Illusion(Boo.)
I also vote for sin magic (sloth).
Oh, and hi all.Hello and welcome.
Regarding sin magic specialist: are we officially opting in for actual sin magic? Remember that if we do, we can never, ever cast an evocation or illusion spell, or even use a wand or scroll of such a spell (without using UMD).
That's what the package of Dangerously Curious trait and investment in Use Magic Device is for -- like I said, normally not considered good for a Wizard, but a good investment for a Thassilonian/Sin Magic specialist. I know the extra spell slots are probably not worth the completely lost schools unless you are a Greed Mage (and you know what that means), but thematically, it's just too compelling (that what was behind my original concept, but we've gotten rid of the Dhampir heritage, so any curse associated with the Sloth would be more nebulous, if we haven't gotten rid of that too).
Also (no spoiler here because it's public knowledge if you just browse the titles of the AP segments), one of the chapters of the AP is titled Sins of the Saviors.
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I disagree with the sin magic suggestion - Runelords is all about discovering the truth behind the ruin of Thassilon, so having an actual sin mage in the group sort of spoils the revelations. I'm good with giving up Illusion (it takes a sort of creativity this guy is likely to lack), but I'd also suggest Enchantment as well.
I disagree with the sin magic suggestion - Runelords is all about discovering the truth behind the ruin of Thassilon, so having an actual sin mage in the group sort of spoils the revelations. I'm good with giving up Illusion (it takes a sort of creativity this guy is likely to lack), but I'd also suggest Enchantment as well.
Maybe he stumbled upon the secret, but doesn't actually know what it is. He even probably has his own name for it and might discover later on how similar it is to Thassilon magic and make the connection. I say its all about how you roleplay it, though you make a good point... I still vote for the sin magic, but lets see what others think.
Going to jump in to this as it seems like fun.
Welcome.
Checking in!
Tomorrow evening I'll be compiling some version of our wizard according to consensus. In the meantime, continue to deliberate.
At that time, I'll begin taking suggestions for our fourth-and-final PC.
I disagree with the sin magic suggestion - Runelords is all about discovering the truth behind the ruin of Thassilon, so having an actual sin mage in the group sort of spoils the revelations. {. . .}
Not necessarily. It's not as if NOTHING is known about the ruin of Thassilon -- if that was true, the AP wouldn't have a Scholar of the Ancients Campaign Trait in the first place.
EDIT: How could I miss this?:
At that time, I'll begin taking suggestions for our fourth-and-final PC.
Some people have mentioned Investigator above -- sounds good to me, and helps a bit to fill in for gaps in our Thassilonian Specialist Wizard's spell list. Need to think of a suitable RotL AE Campaign Trait other than Scholar of the Ancients. Goblin Watcher and Merchant Family seem like potentially good choices (of course, have to pick 1 of these). Have only started to think of what to put for other trait, but Investigator gets a REALLY GOOD Class Skill set (and a lot of Skill Points), so might want something other than a Skill trait. One weakness of Investigators is a bad Fortitude save, so a Fortitude-boosting trait like Resilient (Combat Trait giving +1 to Fortitude Saves) might be good, and would be especially good if our Investigator is an Elf (potentially use Race Trait Forlorn instead to get the same thing), although Elf or otherwise, it would take some finagling to make either one fit thematically with the Merchant Family Campaign Trait.
Alrighty. Delivering on our wizard, so far:
male human wizard 1
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14
Arcane Bond: Familiar (cat)
School: (sin magic: Sloth [conjuration])
Prohibited Schools: (sin magic: Sloth [evocation, illusion])
Feats: Accursed, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (conjuration)
Traits: Scholar of the Ancients, Dangerously Curious
Skills: Appraise 1, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge (arcana) 1, Knowledge (history) 1, Knowledge (nobility) 1, Spellcraft 1, Use Magic Device 1
Favored class bonus is going toward hit points, at the moment.
Here's what our wizard still needs:
1. The Human Wizard
a.) A name.
b.) An alignment.
c.) An ethnicity. (Varisian?)
d.) A patron deity (if any).
e.) Four starting languages (other than Thassalonian)
f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion).
g.) A name for his cat familiar.
In addition, it's offically time to talk about:
2. PC Number 4
I have one preemptive vote for an investigator - I'll take that. All other prior speculation and discussion is invalid, though - productive voting and deliberation for our fourth-and-final PC begins now.
(Some thoughts! It occurs to me that this party has no-one to use any of the heavier weapons or armors that may turn up as treasure - especially Medium-sized ones, or gear made of metal (which is typically most of it) - just food for thought! Anything you can't use, you've got to sell at half price, after all - and traditional arms and armor tends to comprise a lot of the treasure in most APs.)
1.
a) Zend Haraku
b) LN
c) Varisian
2. What's a good class for heavy armour and skills? An Inquisitor maybe?
1a) Gendry Rittedro
b) N
c) Alken (from Alkenstar in the Mana Wastes)
d) None
e) Common, Draconic, Celestial, Elven, Infernal
f) Grease, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Expeditious Retreat, Summon Monster I, Mage Armor
d) Garf
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The wizard, leaving names up to others:
b) N, I can't see him being bothered by alignment decisions much
c) Varisian
d) None
e) Common, Infernal or Abyssal( fits well with his curse but can't remember which one is fiends), Draconic, Varisian, Elven
f) Grease, Mage Armor, Unseen Servant(to carry the cat), Corrosive Touch, Expeditious Retreat, Enlarge Person, Feather Fall
I have no opinions on the specifics of the slothful wizard :)
However, for the fourth character, I would like to vote for a Zen Archer (Qinggong, of course) Monk.
So far, the party has a Swashbuckler (mostly melee), a Druid (melee/magic, as I understand it), and a slothful wizard. A Zen Archer Monk would add a ranged martial element to the group. Zen Archers tend to be better than normal monks, as well. Qinggong is added simply because there is no reason not to - all of the alternate features are optional. We could also add a few vows to make him more interesting personality wise.
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Regarding the 4th character, I feel our party needs a bit of a straight man to tie our admittedly odd bunch together.
I propose a human cavalier with the merchant family background.
- Checks the heavy armor and most weapons requirement
- 4+int gives a good amount of skills, can aslo consider int 13 and going down the combat maneuver route
I like the Idea of a Zen Archer, so +1 vote to that.
G) We should name the cat "Shnue shnue"
prononced sh-n-oo
Hah. I like Calalon's suggestion - let's name the cat Shnoo Shnoo.
spoony bard for 4th character
+1 to shnoo shnoo the cat.
If we go the cavalier route, does the rider get a warhorse or working horse? He can be either a guard of a merchant caravan or a sentry at Sandpoint.
Alrighty. Delivering on our wizard, so far:
male human wizard 1
Str 8, Dex 12, Con 14, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 14
Arcane Bond: Familiar (cat)
School: (sin magic: Sloth [conjuration])
Prohibited Schools: (sin magic: Sloth [evocation, illusion])
Feats: Accursed, Scribe Scroll, Spell Focus (conjuration)
Traits: Scholar of the Ancients, Dangerously Curious
Skills: Appraise 1, Handle Animal 1, Knowledge (arcana) 1, Knowledge (history) 1, Knowledge (nobility) 1, Spellcraft 1, Use Magic Device 1Favored class bonus is going toward hit points, at the moment.
Just as well -- the Human Favored Class Bonus for Wizard just gets you another spell in your spellbook, which would be not bad for a character with a limited spells known (if we had a Sorcerer instead), but a Wizard can just spend gold to get the same thing (and at first and second levels, where the amount of gold is actually significant, you only qualify to get a Cantrip this way, since it has to be 1 level lower than the highest level you can cast).
Here's what our wizard still needs:
1. The Human Wizard
a.) A name.
Depends upon ethnicity -- see below and decide that first.
b.) An alignment.
I would say Neutral Good or Chaotic Good. He actually wants to be good, but is cursed with Sloth.
c.) An ethnicity. (Varisian?)
Varisian, Varisian settler (which usually means originally Chelaxian, but not part of Cheliax for quite a long time), or Ustalavic (original concept); any of these and thematically lends itself well to being accursed, although Ustalavic is most obvious for non-Infernal curses, while Chelaxian-descended Varasian settler lends itself more to Infernal curses, and native Varisian lends itself more to subtle weird curses.
d.) A patron deity (if any).
Initially none, but could certainly pick up one later, if said deity helps him get out from under his curse. (Also part of my original concept.)
e.) Four starting languages (other than Thassalonian)
Common/Taldane, Elven, Varisian, Giant, Abyssal.
f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion).
Protection from Evil, Grease(*), Mage Armor(*), Mount(*), Obscuring Mist(*), Identify, Enlarge Person
(*)Specialty school (Conjuration); Mount helps with not having to walk so far, especially when having to carry the Catpig.
g.) A name for his cat familiar.
Ethnicity might have some role to play here as well, although after seeing this cat, other people (regardless of input of the actual name) might take to calling this cat a catpig.
In addition, it's offically time to talk about:
2. PC Number 4
I have one preemptive vote for an investigator - I'll take that. All other prior speculation and discussion is invalid, though - productive voting and deliberation for our fourth-and-final PC begins now.
(Some thoughts! It occurs to me that this party has no-one to use any of the heavier weapons or armors that may turn up as treasure - especially Medium-sized ones, or gear made of metal (which is typically most of it) - just food for thought! Anything you can't use, you've got to sell at half price, after all - and traditional arms and armor tends to comprise a lot of the treasure in most APs.)
If our Investigator (or whatever) initially dips Fighter (or something like that), problem solved. Background hook: Have the Investigator be interested in being a detective, and having prepared for it, but first having done a stint in the Guard (could be Sandpoint or could be Magnimar).
If you are going to be mounted (like most varieties of Cavaliar), keep in mind that if you are going to be in ruins for Human-sized (Medium) creatures a lot, it is best if you are Small (so that your mount can fit in, and you have more options for a mount that actually have the agility for this kind of thing).
On the wizard; others seem to have a solid handle on his personality and the background of Golarion (not one of my strengths) and I'm happy to delegate that to them.
f. Spells: without Ride skill Mount is out IMO. A decent spell list might be Air Bubble, Grease, Infernal Healing, Mage Armor (all Conjuration), Heightened Awareness, Identify, and Sleep.
We're missing someone who can disarm traps and a solid ranged character; I'd rather not give up either just to get someone who can use some more of the random weapons/armor we find. A trap breaker alchemist can do both. Gnomes and hobgoblins can get extra bombs/day via favored class bonus.
I'd like to suggest an explosion-crazed hobgoblin trap-breaker alchemist for our 4th party member.
I like the Idea of a Zen Archer, so +1 vote to that.
G) We should name the cat "Shnue shnue"
prononced sh-n-oo
.... Alright... if we name the cat that it has to be a female one, at least. +1 for Shnoo Shnoo under these terms.
f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion).Protection from Evil, Grease(*), Mage Armor(*), Mount(*), Obscuring Mist(*), Identify, Enlarge Person
(*)Specialty school (Conjuration); Mount helps with not having to walk so far, especially when having to carry the Catpig.
No summon monster I.... At least summon monster has to be there (maybe replace identify or englarge person). Also... why did ya have to call it a catpig...
+1 for Shnoo-Shnoo the cat
A quick wizard voting update:
The Human Wizard
a.) His name:
b.) An alignment:
c.) An ethnicity:
d.) A patron deity (if any):
e.) Four starting languages (other than Thassalonian):
f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion):
g.) A name for his cat familiar:
Aaand PC #4 votes so far:
PC #4 Tally:
1 vote for an investigator
2 votes for a monk (quingong, zen archer)
1 vote for an explosion-crazed hobgoblin trap-breaker alchemist
1 vote for an oread skald
1 vote for a spoony bard
Looking good, but needs more voting!
1.
>a. Zend Haraku
>b. True Neutral would fit best, I think.
>c. I'd agree with Varisian.
>d. None.
No opinion on his other details.
I already voted on this, but I still think we should go with Zen Archer Qinggong Monk.
Wizard:
A. another vote for Gendry Rittedro
B. N
C. Varsian
D. None
E. no opinion
F. At least Summon Monster I
G. Yes Shnoo-Shnoo
PC #4 hm... need a rogue off some sort... I also vote Investigator, but only because it has a chance of winning and would bring in a skill class.
A)... No comment
B)N works well
C) again nothing to add
D) Nethys, maybe? He is liable to be true neutral. Possibly horribly lapse in his worship; he is cursed with sloth after all.
E) Another for Elven
2. Love the idea for a fighter-dipped investigator. It allows for a grand variety of options. However, he/she can't do a good ranged build without relying on guns...
f. Spells: without Ride skill Mount is out IMO. A decent spell list might be Air Bubble, Grease, Infernal Healing, Mage Armor (all Conjuration), Heightened Awareness, Identify, and Sleep.
Ride can be performed untrained -- as far as I know, you just need Ride ranks if you are going to be riding in combat or other hazardous situations; if you are just getting from point A to point B and going to dismount if you need to do anything else, you don't need the Ride ranks. Keep in mind that Ride is going to start becoming obsolete in mid levels (Fly is what you really want).
{. . .}
No summon monster I.... At least summon monster has to be there (maybe replace identify or englarge person). Also... why did ya have to call it a catpig...f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion).Protection from Evil, Grease(*), Mage Armor(*), Mount(*), Obscuring Mist(*), Identify, Enlarge Person
(*)Specialty school (Conjuration); Mount helps with not having to walk so far, especially when having to carry the Catpig.
Summon Monster I isn't really worth much -- not just because the monsters are weak (they can actually be decent if you can somehow get them to stick around for a bit, like by being a Summoner), but because at low levels the duration is absurdly short (1 round per level), and by the time you get enough levels to make the duration decent, you have access to better Summon Monster spells. From the guides I have read, Summon Monster III (and Summon Nature's Ally III for the Druid) are where this type of spell starts to get to be worthwhile for a character who is not an actual Summoner.
As for Catpig . . . think Garfield, but more sociable.
Wonder why so many votes for Neutral alignment?
Wonder why so many votes for Neutral alignment?
He's too lazy to do anything for/care about alignment?
Would the wizard have a crossbow while traveling? If so,
magic weapon, gravity bow
for heavy lifting,
ant haul, unseen servant
diplomacy?
cultural adaptation, comprehend language, charm person
combat:
enlarge person, expeditious retreat, mage armor, barrier(?)
magic:
air bubble, grease
JustAGustofWind, that's 13 spells. Choose 7, right?
UAE, ride isn't technically trained only but something rubs me wrong about riding long distances without picking up the skill. Besides, skills are retrainable and horses aren't that expensive.
No love for explosions anyone? Doesn't anyone love the smell of napalm here! My alchemist is feeling pain over the lack of votes.
Summon Monster I isn't really worth much -- not just because the monsters are weak (they can actually be decent if you can somehow get them to stick around for a bit, like by being a Summoner), but because at low levels the duration is absurdly short (1 round per level), and by the time you get enough levels to make the duration decent, you have access to better Summon Monster spells. From the guides I have read, Summon Monster III (and Summon Nature's Ally III for the Druid) are where this type of spell starts to get to be worthwhile for a character who is not an actual Summoner.{. . .}
No summon monster I.... At least summon monster has to be there (maybe replace identify or englarge person). Also... why did ya have to call it a catpig...f.) Seven 1st-level spells for his spellbook (no evocation or illusion).Protection from Evil, Grease(*), Mage Armor(*), Mount(*), Obscuring Mist(*), Identify, Enlarge Person
(*)Specialty school (Conjuration); Mount helps with not having to walk so far, especially when having to carry the Catpig.
Actually, if he is a conjuration specialist it is 1 round/level + 1/2 round/level (min 1). So, starting at level one that's 2 rounds, lvl 2 = 3, lvl 3 = 4, lvl 4 = 6 and so on. Plus, it would even be a little bit more worth while if he gets spell focus (conjuration) and augment summoning. I'm not saying its ideal, but from what you guys are telling me hes not going to be really combative in the first place from your guys' spell selections. I understand he's slothful, but is he not going to be doing anything during combat? Also, I've gotten pretty decent damage from it for being a low level spell in a few of my games (of course many of them were goblins, and the combat would last only 2 - 3 rounds anyway because of it, but that's not the point). Anyway, if you truly feel strongly against it, then we don't have to get it... but those are my thoughts on the matter and I would like you guys to at least consider it.
^Not saying that he won't be combative, but Conjuration has other great spells of 1st and 2nd level, so it would be better to focus on those at 1st through 4th level. (For that matter, it has other great spells going all the way up.) It is not without reason that Wizard guides only start marking Summon Monster as blue starting at Summon Monster III.
Update: I will tally PC #4 votes and nail down wizardly details on SATURDAY. Until then, have at it!
Aaaand, we're back.
The Human Wizard
Consensus on our final wizardly choices are as follows:
a.) His name is Zend Haraku.
b.) His alignment is neutral.
c.) His ethnicity is Varisian.
d.) He keeps no patron deity in particular.
e.) His starting languages are Abyssal, Common, Draconic, Elven, Infernal, Thassalonian, and Varisian.
f.) The seven first-level spells in his spellbook are enlarge person, expeditious retreat, grease, identify, mage armor, summon monster I, and unseen servant.
g.) His familiar's name is Shnoo-shnoo.
Regarding PC #4:
We are tied between a zen archer monk and an investigator.
At this time, I am going to wipe the voting tally clean. All participants should discuss and vote on one of those two options only.
Well... Investigator.
+1 for Investigator. Zen Archer is nice, but somebody to fill the scout/trapfinder/skillmeister role is even more important. Zen Archer would be not a bad choice for 5th character if we were going to have one (last I checked, we're not).
Do we actually still have more than two participants?
Between those two I'd call for an investigator.
Light on skill so investigator.
+1 Zen archer.
Do we actually still have more than two participants?
People who are not hopeless nerds like me might have decided to go outside for more than just work when New England warmed up for a day. Forecast says back to feeling like Irrisen this week, so maybe you'll get more responses.
I still vote Zen Archer Monk, even though it looks like it'll loose.
It's alive!
Okay, so: investigator it is, for sure.
You know the drill by now:
Building the Investigator
a.) What race will our investigator belong to? If human, what bonus feat do you recommend?
b.) What sex will our investigator be?
c.) Will our investigator use any archetype(s)? My two cents: Empiricist looks good for a really skill-tastic investigator, and mostly only gives up poison use.
d.) How will we spend our 20-point-buy?
e.) We (probably) have only one feat to spend. What'll it be?
f.) Which two traits should we select?
g.) In order of priority, what skills are important to our investigator? HINT: Nobody has Diplomacy so far!
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a) Male
b) Half-elf
c) I like Empiricist
d) I suggest 14, 10, 12, 17, 10, 10
e) Half-elves get Skill Focus + I also suggest Human Spirit( this will get us skill points + the seems very nice Half-elf favored class bonus)
f) Family Ties and not sure
g) With above we'll have 10 skill points per level so no need to be particularly picky.
Disable Device, Perception, Sense Motive, Use Magic Device, Diplomacy are all affected by empiricist class feature
Craft(Alchemy) seems a given
Fill the rest with knowledges the wizard isn't taking imo