I feel like that's going to open the proverbial gates of chaos if we start homebrewing horifically overpowered feats. Surely there's some existing material that can be made to do what you want? You can switch around your classes and stuff if you want too.
Gestalt/Prestigious grant all of the special class features of a given class, except spell casting. Ie you would gain all the bloodline abilities of a Sorcerer, but if you wanted to be able to cast Sorcerer spells as well, you need to take Magic User.
All I'm asking is for a way to access the systems that are similar to spell casting that have since been created since HOP was published.
Also, for Hamza, I'm planning on giving up my two levels of Mage Hunter for two levels in my Gestalt classes and taking Prestigious for Umbral Blade.
Is that okay? While I really like Mage Hunter, U Blade fits Hmaza far better thematically and I can always take Mage Hunter later via normal levels.
You can switch out the class levels.
I could see the veils as equivalent to spell casting. The maneuvers are clearly to me not spell casting.
Not suggesting that we need it, just asking because it is in your other games: Are we gestalting mythic also?
Okay, let me re-post here the build updates. I'm actually going to have a couple of players from some Giant In the Playground Forum games join here, and I need to synergize their build rules with yours. The only other real thing I need to adjust is everyone needs to go up to 6/6 on their gestalt levels.
Okay so here are the changes;
1-advance to 6/6 gestalt. Then you have the choice of the mythic tiers or prestige levels I gave you earlier.
2-feat progression is as if a fighter having 1 feat per level on Both sides of the gestalt. This progression also applies to the mythic tiers and the prestige levels. This means the gestalt levels get 2-4 feats a level, while the prestige and mythic tiers get 1-2.
3-add constitution bonuses to vigor, and double the total vigor at first level, and take maximum values.
HOP feats in play. You can have 1 per level/mythic tier.
Not suggesting that we need it, just asking because it is in your other games: Are we gestalting mythic also?
I'm going to add that in at some point probably, or include the Epic level material in Legends of Athas from the old 3.5 website. I think for right now I'm not going to do that since there's a lot of other turning wheels here and I'm going to try to incorporate some other players.
Just so I'm clear,
Right now, Hamza is Stalker/Harbinger(gestalt) 5, Mage Hunter 2.
You want me to go to Stalker/Harbinger 6, but if I trade in my two PrC levels I would end up as an 8th level Stalker/Harbinger.
My plan is to use the Prestigious HOP feat to gain virtual levels of Umbral Blade, which is a PrC from Path of War Expanded.
Is this okay? Being 8th level in my gestalt classes? I would also have 4 virtual levels of Umbral Blade, and if I took the Gestalt feat, I would also have 4 virtual levels of whatever class I chose for that.
You can't trade in the prestige class levels.
Everyone is going to have one of 2 builds.
6/6 2 Mythic Tiers, 2 Prestige Class levels
OR
6/6 3 Mythic tiers.
You can switch out the class levels.
This is what confused me, as I was asking if I could trade out Mage Hunter for two levels of my gestalt.
But, that's okay. I think I'll end up going 6/6, 3 mythic, and take Prestigious for my PrC needs.
You can switch out the class levels.This is what confused me, as I was asking if I could trade out Mage Hunter for two levels of my gestalt.
But, that's okay. I think I'll end up going 6/6, 3 mythic, and take Prestigious for my PrC needs.
I meant like you could decide to be a bard instead of a thief if you had started as a thief. Or change from a bard/fighter to a mesmirist/fighter if you want to.
And thank for all for your patience and flexibility updating the game for our new players.
And thank for all for your patience and flexibility updating the game for our new players.
I'm going to compile all the build rules again once we finish updating in case we need them to create cohort members or pets.
Uh that will give me something to do^^
Already updated my character in herolab to the other suggestions and lost the back up save when my PC crashed...
Just curious,
Is this slight power boost the same as the leveling up we were discussing that was to come much later, or is it separate from that?
In lieu of it for now -- this will fix a lot of the build issues that were nagging at me, so I won't have such major revisions for the next level up.
So, I suck, and I forgot to list out my languages.
I have 7, plus Common(is that a thing in Dark Sun, or is there a setting specific version?) and Infernal. However, I believe Seb gave me permission to take Daemonic as a more specific language.
I'll be taking Infernal and Abyssal regardless.
What was that trade language Hamza was speaking with that one group of NPCs we ran across?
Also, does Raam and Alaka have their own languages? I think we decided that Alaka would use Shadowtongue, ie the language of the Plane of Shadow from Golarion.
I wasn't intending to distinguish abyssal from daemonic.
I would suggest: Common, Daemonic, Infernal, Shadow Tongue, Nibenese, Raamite, and Urikite, and Tyrian
Note: Each of these has in-universe names, like Raamite is Sindi, Nibenese is Han Fu, and Urikite is Emegir, and Tyrian is Hashemite, for instance, but we can use shorthand like Raamite for the purposes of character sheets.
The only reason I suggest Daemonic as it's own language is because Daemons otherwise speak both Abyssal *and* Infernal.
I once asked James Jacobs(creative director for Golarion) why Daemons didn't have their own language. I forget what the reasoning was, but I believe he would have preferred they did.
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OK, I see what you mean, I wasn't tracking the difference between Demon and Daemon/Tana'ri and Yuggoloth. So that's basically the NE outsider language, that's fine.
So are we doing this right this instant?
Decided to keep the 2 levels of Mage Hunter, as I can't remember all the increases I got from those two levels.
Hamza will be a Stalker/Harbinger 6, Mage Hunter 2, Trickster 2.
Question,
Since all of the PCs are now getting the same amount of bonus that we got from the Red Pool, will those of us who *actually* step within the pool get a replacement power boost?
I'm a bit lost as to if this is a do now thing or a future thing. Either way I'm good with what we have said
I will not be able to do my leveling up until tomorrow (Friday) night. It will likely spill into Saturday.
Ok... you had given me a power boost of a mythic level considering I had no template as others had. Should I remove that to be at gestalt 6/prestige 2/mythic 2? If so, should I give myself an appropriate +1CR template?
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Okay, let me re-post here the build updates. I'm actually going to have a couple of players from some Giant In the Playground Forum games join here, and I need to synergize their build rules with yours.
With all the craziness about build changes I actually managed to miss this sentence.
Umm... could we please not?
I really, really can't keep up with the constantly changing party makeup. I struggle with any group that's larger than about 6 in the best of times, but when people in the group keep changing I just can't. I understand that some churn is inevitable with PbP, but we don't have to keep the party large. Four would be a perfectly fine number of people to have.
Not to mention that the combination of party churn and the fact that we've been in what's supposed to be an insanely dangerous dungeon since I've joined has made it virtually impossible to engage in the part of this campaign I'd actually found interesting--exploring just how bizarre of a group our party is. We've been at this for months real-time and I still feel like we don't even know the first thing about each other. Ri'Kli'Klek doesn't even know the sun is red yet! And I really want to write that scene when he finds that out! Some of this might be my fault for not forcing the issue by talking with the other party members more, but I'd been hoping to actually figure out who they were before trying that and right now I'm only sure of about two of the members that I think are currently active.
Add to that the fact that making all these build changes sounds more exhausting than fun to me and I'm starting to think I should really just drop out. I don't mean to complain, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that this just isn't my type of campaign. Or maybe I can play Ri'Kli'Klek more as an NPC or something, that tags along with the party but sin't really part of it, in hopes that I'll be able to get my fun role-playing moments at some point. I don't know. I just know I'm not enjoying things presently and haven't really been for a while, so I need to change *something*.
Is it bad that I was looking forward to that eventual bigger level up later on? Not just the levels themselves, though that's awesome of course, but the extra feats being talked about(whether the 36 Seb initially mentioned, or something lower) would have been freakin epic.
Ah well, tis my own fault for gettin hyped about something that wasn't a guarantee.
For those of us with 2 mythic tiers, we now get a pair of bonus mythic feats, correct?
Ok... you had given me a power boost of a mythic level considering I had no template as others had. Should I remove that to be at gestalt 6/prestige 2/mythic 2? If so, should I give myself an appropriate +1CR template?
no you still get to keep the extra mythic tier because you don't have a template
Decided to keep the 2 levels of Mage Hunter, as I can't remember all the increases I got from those two levels.
Hamza will be a Stalker/Harbinger 6, Mage Hunter 2, Trickster 2.
Question,
Since all of the PCs are now getting the same amount of bonus that we got from the Red Pool, will those of us who *actually* step within the pool get a replacement power boost?
No, I want to re-set everyone on the same level, as much as I can.
Okay, let me re-post here the build updates. I'm actually going to have a couple of players from some Giant In the Playground Forum games join here, and I need to synergize their build rules with yours.With all the craziness about build changes I actually managed to miss this sentence.
Umm... could we please not?
I really, really can't keep up with the constantly changing party makeup. I struggle with any group that's larger than about 6 in the best of times, but when people in the group keep changing I just can't. I understand that some churn is inevitable with PbP, but we don't have to keep the party large. Four would be a perfectly fine number of people to have.
Not to mention that the combination of party churn and the fact that we've been in what's supposed to be an insanely dangerous dungeon since I've joined has made it virtually impossible to engage in the part of this campaign I'd actually found interesting--exploring just how bizarre of a group our party is. We've been at this for months real-time and I still feel like we don't even know the first thing about each other. Ri'Kli'Klek doesn't even know the sun is red yet! And I really want to write that scene when he finds that out! Some of this might be my fault for not forcing the issue by talking with the other party members more, but I'd been hoping to actually figure out who they were before trying that and right now I'm only sure of about two of the members that I think are currently active.
Add to that the fact that making all these build changes sounds more exhausting than fun to me and I'm starting to think I should really just drop out. I don't mean to complain, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that this just isn't my type of campaign. Or maybe I can play Ri'Kli'Klek more as an NPC or something, that tags along with the party but sin't really part of it, in hopes that I'll be able to get my fun role-playing moments at some point. I don't know. I just know I'm not enjoying things...
This is a story issue that I only have partial control over (player - player interaction). Part of it I can probably do something about (non-dungeon scenarios).
For some reason players in pbp don't generally want to do player to player interactions. I'm not stopping that. If you would all talk to each other at least some of the time instead of exclusively to me or the NPCs, there would be more character - character interaction of this sort. I'd really prefer that, but it just doesn't really seem to happen very much for some reason. I'd say 95%+ posts are solely directed at the DM in these games, and it's like the pcs are all playing a solo game, or aren't even aware the other pcs are there.
Also, I'm encountering the issue that I'm dreamed up a ton of lore and fluff for this game, but when I offer to clarify things when people say they're lost, no one ever follows up to actually ask me anything. I made a group-editable document of people, places, things, and no one seems to have looked at it or edited it. I can do summaries of plot points or whatever if anyone would give me some meaningful feedback on this.
Nevertheless, what I'm planning to do is once we reset everything, I'm going to have everyone write up a blurb for their character so everyone knows who everyone is, and also do several summary posts for the major plot points to try to remind everyone what's going on.
If we could try to work on that, I think it would help.
I'm trying to move things along to get out of the dungeon relatively soon.
I get the sense people are tired of dungeon-crawling -- what kind of scenario would generally appeal more?
For those of us with 2 mythic tiers, we now get a pair of bonus mythic feats, correct?
The progression is the same as a fighter getting 1 feat per level so 3 overall, with 1-2 feats per tier.
The dungeon crawl is fine at the moment. I'm with ri'kli'klek though. Will try to do more direct player interactions again, was a bit focused on hamza.
What about those other players though? How many are "a couple"?
I think we're 8 at the moment and 7 are very active, that's a really good number!
Looks like 'a couple' will literally be 2.
What I think is, there's a lot of conversation going on in spoilers. Either because it's telepathy or languages, right now because we split the party. (sorry for that).
That definitely hinders interaction as well in my eyes, because it's really hard to join in to the conversation - or game wise impossible.
I get there's some secret side mission going on, but the rest then is often silent for some days. Also wouldn't make sense to exchange old stories when in the middle of negotiations with some monsters.
...Okay, let me re-post here the build updates. I'm actually going to have a couple of players from some Giant In the Playground Forum games join here, and I need to synergize their build rules with yours.With all the craziness about build changes I actually managed to miss this sentence.
Umm... could we please not?
I really, really can't keep up with the constantly changing party makeup. I struggle with any group that's larger than about 6 in the best of times, but when people in the group keep changing I just can't. I understand that some churn is inevitable with PbP, but we don't have to keep the party large. Four would be a perfectly fine number of people to have.
Not to mention that the combination of party churn and the fact that we've been in what's supposed to be an insanely dangerous dungeon since I've joined has made it virtually impossible to engage in the part of this campaign I'd actually found interesting--exploring just how bizarre of a group our party is. We've been at this for months real-time and I still feel like we don't even know the first thing about each other. Ri'Kli'Klek doesn't even know the sun is red yet! And I really want to write that scene when he finds that out! Some of this might be my fault for not forcing the issue by talking with the other party members more, but I'd been hoping to actually figure out who they were before trying that and right now I'm only sure of about two of the members that I think are currently active.
Add to that the fact that making all these build changes sounds more exhausting than fun to me and I'm starting to think I should really just drop out. I don't mean to complain, but it's becoming increasingly clear to me that this just isn't my type of campaign. Or maybe I can play Ri'Kli'Klek more as an NPC or something, that tags along with the party but sin't really part of it, in hopes that I'll be able to get my fun role-playing moments at some point. I don't know. I just
I'd be fine if you'd just like to follow along as a role playing presence so you can continue the campaign without having to deal with the rules issues. I sense you're not interested in the 'game within a game' of build making/min maxing, and some of us are, so that's a difficult needle to thread.
Ah 2 might be something we could take. Was afraid it could be 5+
I had an extra mythic level as well, as in I already was mythic 3.
Probably Amunet is strong enough though.
What I think is, there's a lot of conversation going on in spoilers. Either because it's telepathy or languages, right now because we split the party. (sorry for that).
That definitely hinders interaction as well in my eyes, because it's really hard to join in to the conversation - or game wise impossible.
I get there's some secret side mission going on, but the rest then is often silent for some days. Also wouldn't make sense to exchange old stories when in the middle of negotiations with some monsters.
There is a side-plot/mission with Hamza (just separate character and player knowledge, I'm just trying to clarify what's going on by telling you that).
It sounds like Ri'Kli'Klek wants to get out of the tomb.
The above ground areas in Kalidnay are an interesting mix of urban and dungeon crawl. There are compounds for at least a half dozen factions strewn throughout the ruins, as well as some nomads and other individual squatters who live there.
There's also a newer town right next to the ruins that is an urban environment. I could try to move us along to one of those areas soon.
I get that. Maybe ri'kli'klek would be more happy with some direct interacting. I can imagine some nice scenes there.
For the dungeon it helps me to see it as an underground town with different inhabitants and dangers.
Seems the elven elders quest is filling a complete AP book though :D
Is not just get down there and get the artifact, but meet several different tribes from another planet invading and possibly destroying yours who have some quarrels among them and then there are still different other factions mingling in with unknown intentions.
That makes the goal at hand a bit more comped he he
There's at least 4 factions that you've encountered so far
(1) The servants of the 'Master of the Aerie' who live in the extinct volcano/diamond mine. They are part of a cult of Ymeri and consists of the mysterious hooded 'master', the intellect devourerers, and the morlocks who are the remnants of Kalidnay's ancient human inhabitants.
(2) The slassans -- these are interdimensional travelers, They are serpentine creatures with spider legs and multiple eyes. Their society is organized into at least three 'chromatic socieities'. The yellow ones are evil necromancers. The red ones are neutral-ish alchemists. The blue ones are neutral-ish sages. They're fighting group (1) for control of the ruins.
(3) The dray servants of Dregoth. These draconic creatures have concealed their shapes by powerful magic and are on a mission from Giustenal in the ruins.
(4) The ancient servants of the Red God Dargulin, principally in the Tomb of Kla'Tra'Yhe, the Master of the Keys. These included the Fire Eaters, another cult of Ymeri in the most ancient of times.
I'm going to build names every time I want to give someone else the possibility to respond and interact,like I Nutzer did with hamza.
That's a good overview, thanks!
I'm sorry to be trouble, and I know at least part of my issues are my fault. I haven't worked as hard as I could at doing the parts of the game I find interesting. Honestly I think part of that is because I was just burned out for a few months and I'm only recovering as of about last month.
I know I definitely don't enjoy the min-maxing, though. I like building for flavor, not to get really big numbers, though I can enjoy big numbers somewhat when "being a combat demigod" is part of the character's flavor. In Ri'Kli'Klek's case, though, part of his backstory is that he wasn't strong enough to feel like he was making a difference in the big final battle in the tombs, which is why he thought hiding himself away as a guardian of the tombs was a good idea. So it feels wrong trying to build him to be capable of punching holes in golems four times his size. I suppose we do have touching that pool as an excuse, but...
...yeah, anyway, I'm not quite sure what I want to do now. I don't know whether or not I'll enjoy being an RP-only entity. I'll think it over today and see if I can figure out what I really want to do with Ri'Kli'Klek. Thanks for being understanding.
It's fine, different people want different things out of games, and sometimes you start something and don't really know if it's going to be your thing. My views on this medium for gaming have certainly evolved while I've done it.
I've had a very rough month with school and basically solo move, so I'm certainly sympathetic to the feeling of exhaustion
I know exactly what you are talking about and can relate.
Over the last 2 years I had time I felt like an empty shell.
Ri'kli'klek I think we can work together there and maybe I can give you some aid in making the numbers match in a flavorful way.
You're playing your character awesome by the way, really like it!
For Amunet-Ra flavor comes first for me, but she kinda developed in the game in ways I have not foreseen.
She's now an über-elf.
I'll probably tone down damage again, since I find that silly.
Focus is clearly on moveability and speed, I even have some redundant ability there.
Fastest elf on Athas!
What could be interesting is more enemies instead of more powerful ones.
I forgot there are (2) other factions in the ruins you are aware of, both from Serran, the world of Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved Diamond Throne setting:
(1): The giantess Esilena Lore and the Scalebrakers. The giantess and her doglike sibeccai ranger servants are dragon hunters. They were dispatched after the second group:
(2): The companions of the Shadowborn or Shadebourne Tillam Tlisstillit -- a servant of the returning dragons, and his allies who fled the giantess and her minions through a portal, and ended up on Athas. They were encountered at the Diamond Mines when the party stopped the sacrifice the followers of the Master of the Aerie were about to perform.
So, in Kalidnay you can expect to find
(1) The dray
(2) Esilena Lore and the scalebreakers
(3) The servants of the Master of the Aerie
(4) The slassans and their servants
(5) The Shadowborn and his servants
(6) The servants of Dargulin the Red God
There are also:
(7) The forward camp of the Bloodspeaker elf tribe of which Eahwe is a member
(8) The compound of Cae's confederates from Balic
(9) The awakened forces of Kalid-Ma and her Templars
(10) The mysterious visitors Rokan observed in the Pavilion of Mercy that cam from the Great Orrery in the sky and descended in a strange vessel into the center of Kalidnay.
There are some other factions too, but you can see there's a lot going on in the ruins right now.
When it isn't built into the backstory, camaraderie takes time to build; and it probably takes a little longer in PbP for several reasons. But we can get there eventually. For me, it helps to re-read several pages at once to have a better feel for the story and characters.
Dungeoning is fine, but if every room is an encounter, that will make it take longer to push plots forward.
I'm happy to do some summaries if people need reminding on plot points, you just need to tell me what you need. As I said, I already made a file of persons/places/things that everyone can add to and edit, and I've done summary posts every time I've been asked to. I'm really available and eager to help with this if people will just let me know what they need.
I'm happy to move the adventure in whatever direction people want. I have well over 1,000 pdfs of 3.5/pf stuff. I'm cribbing stuff from lots of different sources for these encounters -- I can keep this dungeon going forever or we can move onto any other kind of scenario people would find more enjoyable, you just need to let me know what that is.
We can visit Raam, Balic, Tyr, Urik, or Yaramuke(those are the cities I currently have a map and scenario ideas for, and I'd appreciate it if we could confine any ventures to those for now). We can explore the surface ruins of Kalidnay.
I've described some of the stuff in Kalidnay. In general it's going to be like ancient Egypt/Osirion kind of setting with the sci-fi stuff from ancient times -- sort of like Star Gate.
Raam is like medieval India. There's a lot of behind the scenes conflict going on because of the misrule of Abalach-Re. Hamza and Jimbli have a connection to that city. It would be more like an urban spy and intrigue kind of scenario.
Balic is like ancient Greece, and would also be sort of Game of Thrones esque intrigue. Cae is from that city.
Tyr is like ancient Carthage. The two new characters are from there. There's a dungeoneering scenario there that's based on the classic Slavers Modules.
Urik is like ancient Mesopotamia but its positioned next to an Athasian version of the Worldwound called the Hellscape or Crimson Desert -- it's filled with mutated monstrosities. One of the new characters also has an Urik connection.
Yaramuke is another ruined city state like Kalidnay. It is inspired culturally by a mixture of ancient Persia and the South East (think Angkor Wat). It is inhabited by lizard men who are fighting the shadow like minions of the dead sorcerer queen.
Also there's still the trading post of Kelmarane -- though Rokan is the only character left who originally was attached to the House Vordon caravan that was investigating that locale, and met with Dregoth's apprentice Faalcuun and was promised some sort of information in return for entering the Kalidnay ruins on his behalf. I have a lot of maps and stuff for that too.
Wow 21 new posts! Good reading, and discussion!
For me, I like a really healthy mix of both combat/numbers/leveling and really good, engaging roleplay, be it with fellow PCs or interesting NPCs.
I've tried to RP with as many of the PCs as possible, but it's a little tricky when you're trying to push through a dungeon.
That said, I personally do not want to just abandon the ruins, as I am enjoying the exploration, combats and RP that has come up so far.
However, if the group decides to go elsewhere, I'm sure I can come up with a reason for Hamza to go along with them, if for some reason it doesn't fit with his current goals/agenda.
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Just need a team building exercise like a three legged race or something