We're still a ways from it, but I'm going to be doing some 'lateral advancement', such as extra feats, ability scores, etc. instead of pumping you up a level as the next few 'level up' actions.
I have a couple of questions:
How did most people generate their ability scores?
What kinds of lateral perks would be most appealing -- extra feats, ability to gain a new template, more skill points, etc.?
Another question: Advanced Beings
Hamza's player (Monkeygod) asked me about effectively an Advanced Creature path for this character using the Rakshasa Paragon class. I think you could do that with one of the Horrifically Overpowered Feats from Rogue Genius that allows gestalt features.
Does anyone else have any ideas about what they might want to do as an 'Advanced Creature Progression' equivalent to dragon, avangion, or rukova (for Druids/Elemental clerics)? I don't think we have to model them all mechanically as prestige classes, but I think the basic idea of an epic destiny/transformation is pretty closely tied to Athasian lore/fluff.
Here are some ideas for other classes
Fighters/gladiators become giants
Thieves/bards become shadow creatures of some sort
Any other ideas?
Some other ideas
I’d say what I’d like to see is this...and just throwing it out there. Feel free to crucify me.
No more leveling. Instead we “naturally” get better at certain things. Fight in close combat a lot? Get +1 BaB. Act as a face? Get +2 Cha. Use magic to solve every problem? Get an extra spell slot or higher DC. Basically get better by doing things. More “RPG” feel. With choices coming from feat and Mythic rewards.
Seems more manageable than extra levels given our power levels.
Hmmmm.
While I like Rilkus suggestion of 'naturally getting better at certain things', part of the reason I made Hamza the way I did was because I wanted to see how well the class features of the Harbinger and Slayer paired with each other, without being forced to choose one class or another(ie, multiclassing).
Things like BAB, skills, ability scores, and even feats and maneuvers aren't as key to the build concept as the class features themselves.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not solely about the crunch of a build/character/game, but in this case, I'm a bit more so than usual.
I used the 35 point buy.
Any of those perks are cool. I like feats and templates in particular.
I'll think about the other stuff.
These are some interesting ideas I want to think about (I like your idea Rilkus, though I have to see what others see as well, and discuss some options)
It's also possible to hand out class features without 'leveling' per se.
Rilkus' suggestion would also leave some interesting incentives -- if you want to get better at something, you have to do it in game.
Hamza, what did you think about my proposed mechanism for your Rakshas Paragon features, this is the feat I'm talking about:
Gestalt
[Horrifically Overpowered]
You are practically a member of two
character classes, rather than just one.
Benefit: Select one character class. You gain
all the class features (proficiencies and abilities
listed in the “special” column of the class writeup)
of that class other than spellcasting, as if half
your total character level was your class level.
(If you are 1st level, gain only the armor and
weapon proficiencies of your selected class until
you reach 2nd level.) If you actually have levels
in the selected class, you gain class features as
if your class level was equal to your actual class
level plus one-half of all your other levels.
Hmmmm.
While I like Rilkus suggestion of 'naturally getting better at certain things', part of the reason I made Hamza the way I did was because I wanted to see how well the class features of the Harbinger and Slayer paired with each other, without being forced to choose one class or another(ie, multiclassing).
Things like BAB, skills, ability scores, and even feats and maneuvers aren't as key to the build concept as the class features themselves.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not solely about the crunch of a build/character/game, but in this case, I'm a bit more so than usual.
I'm in this same boat - planned pretty heavily around class features. Probably moreso around the psion class features, as it's pretty core to his character to continue increasing his mental power.
Is there a psionic equivalent to avangion that doesn't involve arcane casting?
While interesting, I would prefer not to do that. We are already using a fair amount of homebrew/alternate rules. And if you're including everything anyways, why make it more complicated?
And if you're including everything anyways, why make it more complicated?
I'm not sure what the 'everything' in this context means -- maybe you can explain that a bit more so I can think about it?
I used your 5d6 drop the lowest 2 rolls method for stats.
Leveling up is important because of Class Features and new levels of Spells.
Bonus feats are always nice. I feel like no character ever has as many as they would like to have.
I think what Rilkus is suggesting doesn't necessarily preclude getting more class features.
I think the idea would be that you had to actually use a class feature in a game to get it to improve.
Thus, you'd have to use studied strike as a slayer to improve it, or use your pison powers to get more of them, as well as more powerful manifestations.
Under that idea, it's possible a '5th' level psion would eventually have the manifestation powers of a 20th level character because they used/honed their powers over time.
I'm not sure I'm sold on that, but I think that's what he's proposing (feel free to correct me Rilkus if that's not it).
I also think it might be useful to structure these 'lateral' bonuses like extra feats and stuff around story elements -- if you attack a lot, you might get a strength bonus, or a mythical combat feat. If you perform an important skill check, you might get a feat unlock, if you narrowly survive a combat, you might get some more wound points or something.
Using the gestalt HOP feat is a perfect solution Seb. I have a few of those PDFs myself, fun crazy rules :)
okay we'll do that for your Rakshas progression
Rokan -- I saw in 4th edition there's an advanced being option to become a Pyreen. What about that for another option?
Let me go do some reading on it and see.
Found it in the 4th-edition Dark Sun campaign setting. Flavor-wise I love it. Rule-wise, there is very little there so we would have to invent-to-cover.
Flavor wise is all I was asking, I need to see how anyone (if anyone?) covered a 3.5/PF version of the pyreen.
I was just poking around the 3.5 Dark Sun site, and I see they have some additional prestige classes, including and Order Adept for pisonic characters, as well as Elemental Lord, Shadow Shifter, and a Druid class.
Here's a link for a Giant paragon class that could be useful for martials like Raxus -- could use the same HOP feat I suggested above to Gestalt.
That Legends of Athas pdf is all epic level content. For example, the Pyreen in there are a 16HD fey creature with the spellcasting of a 16th level druid and the manifesting of a 16th level psion.
I will admit, the shadow metamorphosis line of spells are pretty sweet and would fit Hamza thematically, but I feel they oddly balanced, especially for PF. Sadly, he lacks spellcasting, but still, they make me happy, lol
The extensions of 20 level classes doesn't fit exactly onto anything in Pathfinder, but the prestige classes seem portable.
I have to look at this some more and think of some more mechanical options.
Might be alright if hamza does that and gives something else up.
I would object to the rest.
First I want to level niemals and gain some mythic stuff.
Then I'm very worried about playability.
We already have balancing issues.
Also would prefer advancing the story instead of changing rules once a month.
The whole pyreen stuff might be something for later levels, like 16+.
The thing I'd be nervous about with the "use it to gain more" is that it would exacerbate the differences in power level--characters who attack rarely would become more and more incapable of hitting things that provided a fair challenge for the primary combatants, characters who avoided getting attacked might end up so comparatively frail that a single hit would destroy them, etc.
I like the idea of some lateral advancement more. I'd have to think on exactly what Ri'Kli'Klek would like as an 'advanced' form--metamorphosis is very appropriate for an insectoid creature, but getting larger or the like wouldn't really fit him, as he's all about speed, dexterity, and intellect. I'll think about it and look around to see if I can find something to suggest.
We could offer multiple paths--say, you can either gain a lateral advancement or gain class features (but not BAB, saves, etc.) as if you were a level ahead in one or both of your current classes, or something of the like, if we want to avoid increasing levels.
The lateral advancement brings different problems.
Spells and special abilities work on different levels and also have higher DCs.
I strongly suggest we wait with anything in that direction until we had some more fights and story.
At the moment the game is pretty slow. We have many posts, but we just walked around a corner and talked to some people without outcome yet.
And if you're including everything anyways, why make it more complicated?I'm not sure what the 'everything' in this context means -- maybe you can explain that a bit more so I can think about it?
It's also possible to hand out class features without 'leveling' per se.
It just seems like fixing a problem that doesn't exist.
I'm not sure yet -- I'll think about it since we're not near another leveling opportunity of any sort yet.
I'm not in any particular hurry -- but the game can go faster if people want based on posting rate and type. There is a rule in DoomedHero's excellent guide to PbP that talks about always moving the game forward with each post -- it's certainly possible we could put more energy into that. It would require the characters to be a bit more proactively mobile.
Not sure what you mean with proactively mobile.
I saw your different recruitment threads and it seems a lot of ideas carry over and then new ones flood back, same with new books etc.
While that certainly is interesting and exciting on it's own to always find new options and stuff for characters, in my experience pure theory crafting and continuous games bite each other.
All the stuff we have now is extremely awesome already and i would love to enjoy your storytelling :)
Oh and the Numenera game of course!
I'm pretty excited by that game idea.
I mean this is a dungeon crawl, at the moment, and we could be more intentional about moving around if everyone would like the story to move faster.
Ah i see^^
Well storywise we're in a bottleneck, since only Hamza can communicate there.
Also nobody knows what's going on with the suppsodely third party/language he is talking.
From a character point of view, this is all super awkward.
But might be good to come to a conclusion and move on soon.
Heh, I tried to post an hour or so ago, and the boards crashed mid post. Thankfully, I copied it. Gonna try again now.
Yes the board is weird again.
Just posted and it tells me it's already 2 minutes, but it's more like seconds!
@Sebecloki: You planning on doing that Numenera game or should i better calm myself down? :D
I'd like to run the Numenera game -- I'm still waiting for people to finish characters, so it's a bit out of my hands. I think 2 people are done right now.
The current interaction is currently narrowly scoped for Hamza, so my options are jump the gun and get hostile or abruptly leave or pull the group away from the current conversation(s). I'm not seeing a lot of options for Rokan to be mobile unless I've missed something (and he's stated about all he can from the outside and agreement to move on).
Were we expected to let this interaction finish or did you imagine that because it's a dungeon crawl we might/should have taken more extreme options right now?
Just asking to clarify any expectations mismatch that might be impeding game progress.
It's starting to sound like these merchants are about to force an answer or combat
UPDATE: Oh, or they let us pass, presuming we leave them alone. Just saw the last post :) Hamza, finish with them quickly/politely :)
I'm not telling anyone they're playing 'wrong', I'm just pointing out that we could potentially go faster if that's a concern -- I tend to default to kind of a leisurely pace.
It's not so much an issue in the current interaction, but we spent a large number of posts maneuvering around a few traps, and then deciding which direction to go -- I think some of that could be done more speedily in the future if the group wants to move faster.
So, I think I see a problem. Leveling with gestalt and mythic means giant power spikes. Which is *alot* of fun, but which requires alot of work. And it can be unbalancing, as the threats we face get ever greater. So, for my proposal:
Leveling
This happens at the right moments in the story. Recovering great artifacts, defeating mythic foes, reaching story arcs. Basically, when the story demands that we become more powerful, and provides a rationale as to why we are suddenly so much stronger.
Boons
But people grow even when they don't have giant power spikes. And thus we can earn boons. These are gained by actually doing whatever ti is we do. These are completely out of player control, and are given by the GM. For the most part they take the form of bonus feats.
Examples:
Rilkus consistently puts himself on the front lines and body blocks enemy attacks for his allies. He is given Toughness as a bonus feat.
Hamza and Amunet consistently sneak around together to scout. Eventually they are given the teamwork feat Stealth Synergy.
Etc.
The focus though would be on feats which players wouldn't usually put in their builds (though I know that toughness is not in that category). But whatever makes most sense to the GM.
This allows characters to naturally improve without getting power spikes too quickly.
It could also be used for giving mythic rewards which otherwise would never be taken, but which would be very fluffy for the character.Things such as Commanding Entrance. Very fluffy, very cool, but not worth a mythic ability for.
Interesting thoughts. I'll have to mull on them.
For pace, I think the problems we've had have been scenes only a few characters are invested in. Ri'Kli'Klek is with one bunch of strangers who ran into another bunch of strangers. He doesn't like either of them being in the tombs but isn't strong enough to want to rock the boat with either group, so he didn't have much to contribute. With the traps, people with good perception/disable device naturally take the forefront, though these traps are a bit more complex. Basically, the last couple of scenes have felt like only a few ofo our large party could contribute, hence why it's felt slow, especially when at times we've had two things going at once and it was sometimes hard to follow.
At least, that's how it's felt for me.
The latter: 1 vs. 2-3 sentences. I don't want to impede a simple communication with this kind of rules issue.
Seb,
Regarding secret messages passed via bluff, how do you define 'simple' and 'complex' messages?
Some GMs say simple is just a couple of words, and complex is at most a sentence, whereas I have had other GMs allow a full sentence or so for simple, and two or three sentences for complex.
I've worked on the Kalidnay area map some more, and I think I've really outdone my previous effort:
Ya know, sometimes I think Seb runs these games just for an excuse to show off his map making skills, LOL.
Also, did you see my above question about secret messages? It's kinda important.
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Look above your post where you asked. Somehow he answered a minute before you posed the question.
Oh nice. Good to see all of those locations related in a macro sense. I like it.
Well, that's down right bizarre...
Yeah, that was a weird bug of some sort.
What room is our destination?
That depends on where the characters want to go. The majority have no idea at all what the layout of this tomb is, so they have no idea where they're going. However, Hamza has a map which has some details of the complex if he's willing to share...
Also, I need to update his map -- I have a new 3 sheet poster map of Kalidnay and the surroundings that's even bigger than the last version I showed you. When that's done uploading I can show Hamza his new magic map that he can show you, if he want's to share.
Pretty cool maps!
No idea where we are on them though^^
If you look closely, the map of the complex you're in is connected by an arrow to the multi-colored mountain on the 1st page of Hamza's map -- the Serpent Singer Temple is in the 'Iridescent Desert'.
Where would Ri'Kli'Klek want to go to check that the Fingers are still sleeping? I have no idea from looking at the map what room(s) that would be... if Ri'Kli'Klek would even know.
Each of the Fingers has a separate 'tomb'. You are in one of the six. They are all different complexes. He might well want to do that, but he doesn't know where the sarcophagus of Kla'Tra'I the trapmaker is within his tomb.