@Swift actions. I guess you are right. My issue with it stems from my Bard. The ability to start up singing started as a Standard, then a move, then swift.. But I also had cross classed into something that required a swift action for damage almost every round.. So it felt like it was hurting me once I could start singing faster. Sometimes I actually wanted to go slower.
This made me start thinking about how Swift actions are discussed. Then Pathfinder 2 came out, and has the 3 actions. Doesn't matter what you do! Though some of them limit to once per turn.
In this instance he could have smite eviled last round if needed so no game breaking. And by RAW there is only 1 swift per turn. Its just one of those rules that always feels weird to me. One of the reasons I like how clear PF2 is written. WAY less odd edge corners taht don't feel right. At least to me.
So going forward. We will stick with normal rule. 1 Swift per turn.. Oh well.
@Rolling high.
I think this case was odd because I am actually not sure who rolls on a miss chance. Is it the person doing the attack, or the person with the ability that might stop it? I agree with your me rolling saves and attacks, but those are set numbers that do certain things. % rolls are just a bit weird because it doesn't actulaly tell you if 20% chance means 1-20 or 81-100. Or 50% is 1-50 and 51-100. This only really comes into play on % chances. At the table I would let the player pick. Say I am doing 50/50 I will flip a coin and let the player call out what they would prefer. But on a PbP I wanted a set rule. Whoever is rolling higher is better (when it comes to % chances). With the combination of "Who rolls those rolls" and "% is unclear on what is better" and "We can't decide before rolling on PbP" I thought my rules was clean enough. I see that you disagree. I would be curious what the others think. Happy to change my rule for this game if others agree.
@Fly
Yeah I am generally pretty bad at the flying rules. It matters a lot less with magical flight, but I tend to just forget the fly check. I think you are right that Keldor should have to hover as well. And I think it should have to roll to avoid falling 10 feet on Keldor's strikes. as Monster Hover does not skip that damage/fly check roll.
Going forward I will include this roll for damages. That does mean it might kill off full round attacks if they drop 10 feet on the first strike, for example.
I want to reiterate, I appreciate these critiques. I have zero issue learning if I get things wrong. I will also tell you to back off, as I still have GM fiat, if needed. But mostly I honestly am happy to hear it all out. Makes for good communication at the table.
Actually, the Bard class description uses "may" and therefore you can choose your starting of your song to be either Standard, Move, or Swift after 13th level :D
As for the high/low thing, there are really two good consistent choices:
high is always good for the character
high is always good for the person (or not-people, for the DM)
(low isn't a good choice because high is always good for the character in other situations)
I see Basil prefers the former and DM Nex prefers the latter xD
I feel like high always being good for the character is easier to remember, since all rolls have that context and it's their actions we're rolling for.
But I'm fine either way xD
Rolling order also matters. Personally I like to roll all asked for checks and things relating to things off turn first (in the order that they came up) and then my own checks that aren't asked for in alphabetical order (so I can't fudge it accidentally or on purpose).
Still not ideal 'cause I can notice a failed roll and change my post, but I don't want to take away people's ability to roll their own dice (even virtually)
Almost every GM I have had over the years interprets 'actions' differently one way or another.
You only get 1 SWIFT action each round, but the rule specifically calls a swift action as an action that "...consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action."
Well...a MOVE action is a lot more energy and action expenditure than a Swift or Free action. And (if allowed) I'd be spending a MOVE action, NOT a Swift action IF I can use it for activating Swift actions alternatively.
Since you can down-shift a Standard action to a Move action, then why can't you do the same with Move actions to Swift actions?
Pathfinder 2 actions are a good example of of this idea simplified.
However, I can can certainly understand how people see it both ways, especially as a limit on ability usage per round.
--There are no rules on Miss-Chance rolling. This was always left to the GM on who rolls what or how for such things. That way GMs can 'cheat' behind their screens if they want to help/or push the PCs as needed, or leaving it to the PCs to roll them in order to give them understanding they are at fault for any bad rolls.
As a GM I tend to roll Miss chances just to make sure they are done properly and I will declare on each roll the high/low need so the results are clear for everyone. But...I've never run a PBP either.
Tricky thing about PbP is you can't vary the high/low
If you do, what's to stop someone from checking the die result before declaring which was better?
Regarding Swift actions, it is perfectly summed up in the rules:
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort and energy than a free action. You can perform only a single swift action per turn.
Compare to
A move action allows you to move up to your speed or perform an action that takes a similar amount of time. See Table: Actions in Combat for other move actions.
You can take a move action in place of a standard action. If you move no actual distance in a round (commonly because you have swapped your move action for one or more equivalent actions), you can take one 5-foot step either before, during, or after the action.
It is not about the effort it takes, you can do a Swift action during a surprise round, while doing a full-round action, etc...it is an element of game balance.
It is basically a free action type that is limited to once/turn.For some, like Bardic Performance, you have the OPTION to use a Swift. For others, it's compulsory.
And unlike a move action that spells out it can be taken instead of a standard action, the Swift Action actually repeats that only ONE can be taken per turn. It re-states that later: "You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take."
It also goes on to clarify that immediates consume them:"Using an immediate action on your turn is the same as using a swift action and counts as your swift action for that turn. You cannot use another immediate action or a swift action until after your next turn if you have used an immediate action when it is not currently your turn (effectively, using an immediate action before your turn is equivalent to using your swift action for the coming turn)."
That would be utterly pointless, gamebalance-wise if you can simply use another action type to replace it.
@ Rolling High: Mostly, I would like rules that are consistent among as many angles as possible.
So e.g. "High is always good" hold true regardless of who is rolling, and who he is rolling for. No subclause that reverses the logic under certain conditions.
Also, attacker rolls the miss chance. The defender is under a passive effect that can CAUSE a miss(whether concealment, blur, displacement, invisibility...), the attacker attempts to bypass that effect. Much like you roll an attack to bypass the AC.
That is also because the attacker may have abilities, traits or spells that modify his roll(simple example: blind fight feat would be completely useless if the defender rolled for the miss chance, rather than the attacker).
I agree that some deviation is inevitable.
E.g. with Mirror Images: Statistical distribution makes it most sensible to make the "real" subject the 1 on the dice(and to keep it consistent). Or for Teleports, where for some obscure reason the table is reversed. (Even for e.g. Wild Magic or Tech Glitches, higher is usually better).
So I am fine with deviation and adaptable, but I want identical handling for PC's and NPC's, simply to make it easier to remember.
And "High=Good for Character rolling" across the board is much simpler in my opinion than trying to make it "High=Good for Player rolling" for a subset of rolls. It also would make it less likely that rolls get contested.
I think we have no interactions with our characters that would cause problems(such as adding Character Level or fixed numbers to a D100 roll before assessing result) but the less thinking is necessary for something like this the simpler.
E.g. what about "Neutral" NPC's? If GM is rolling for them, are they handled like enemies(high=good?)? Or, if they may align with the players(say the ratfolk in the previous battle), will they be handled as players(high=bad?)? It seems more arbitrary than simply sticking with one fixed handling across the board.
@Fly: Aye. Flying combat, among with Mounted Combat, Grappling, and Underwater Combat are often...neglected :)
I simply enjoy that they have their own, different aspects that add new elements to the game and change certain dynamics.
Yeah I think you are right about the swift actions, for sure. It is a balance thing, I just tend to prefer a game system where that is not the case. (Hence my repeated love for the way PF2 is written and designed). But we are playing PF1 and we should follow the rules. 1 swift a turn :-). I can still not like it ha
% miss chance.. I think some of the confusion here is that sometimes I think of it like "the monster has a chance to evade an attack" vs "the attacker has chance to miss". But I think your logic is right, I did write it in the post as "Basil miss chance" which is confusing. If we stick with miss chances being rolled by the attacker and high being better, I think that makes sense. And if I need to roll for you, it is still your roll so high is better. I think that logic can hold and not get all twisted up in my brain pan.
I am sure we will deal with this again at some point. But I am fine with this ruling. Its just a bit extra fiddly because its PbP. As long as we can agree that should be fine.
That would be utterly pointless, gamebalance-wise if you can simply use another action type to replace it.
Fair enough. I simply disagree. Immediate actions simply state you MUST use your current or next swift action. It does not state what you can do or not do with your Move or even your Standard action in that turn if preferred. That's all I'm saying. Its an unclear point that sticks in my mind, that can be interpreted various ways by each GM. They sort-of clarified this rule in Pathfinder 2 IMHO to make more sense. Time an effort are just that: Time and Effort. Doesn't matter what you call it. That's all I'm saying. I'm NOT saying I'm right. I'm simply interpreting it the way I see it that makes sense to me. But this is just a game and rules are meant to be interpreted by the DM/GM, not the players. NOTE: There are plenty of standard classes/abilities/feats that have no use of swift actions at all. So 'game-balance' is a tough call to me on this since they never have to bother with them at all.
Funny thing? I could have activated my Smite Evil the round prior when I summoned the wings for Gauntlet. I was just too stupid and forgot I even had the ability...
Yeah, not worried about the smite this time, because you could have activated it. We will just try to stick with the hard rule going forward.
We can revisit at another time.. Its just one of those cases of real world logic and game logic don't always work.
I gotta think of PF1 swift actions as pf2 actions that have one of those traits that only let you do one a round (like flurry or whatever else)
You can do with your move and standard as you please.
There is simply no rule allowing them to be converted into swift actions, while there ARE rules against using multiple swift actions in a round.
There is Unchained Action Economy, which gives you 3 actions a turn.
If such is preferred, I would be fine with using that.
And yes, there are many classes that have no need of swift actions, while others can utilize them.
I already gave you the Inquisitor example with Judgement and Bane - but it does not end there. E.g. with a Paladin, you may opt to use Litany of Duty to try and shake off a Murderous Command - but then, you cannot Lay on Hands to self-heal next round. You also can't self-heal AND Smite Evil.
There are also several classes(such as Unchained Monk) or Feats that let you do things as Swift Action.
(It also would allow you to swap into an offensive Style Chain at the beginning of your turn, then use a second swift action to switch back into an defensive Style.)
Or a Ninja that vanishes, sneak attacks, then vanishes again, in the same round.(he could still approach invisible, attack, then vanish and move away but some shenanigans would benefit from this order.)
I do understand where you're coming from, and if we want to house rule this differently I definitely won't complain(I have immediate spells, judgement and bane to juggle). Just saying RAW it's not an option - not that I am opposed to the idea per se.
I like the 3 action in PF2, but PF1 it feel like putting a square peg in a round hole. We will just stick with what we have. Including the limits on Swift per turn.
:)
Hooray for discussions in discussion xD
regarding actions: I'm happy either way xD
The Temporary Hit Points were from a summoned monster's ability, so the effect ended with the SM3 spell that conjured the monster.
related: That and the no teleporting/no material component abilities prevents a lot of shenanigans xD
E.g. no summoning pixies (with Summon Good Monster and SM4) for permanent illusions without even knowing Permanent Image (a 6th level spell)
I hope y'all don't mind Thawm being grumpy; in case it isn't obvious from my post, I'm happy and having fun :3
So I was pursuing the Recruitment thread and ran across a homebrew Starfinder game that is not getting much attention. I would love for it to start.
If anyone is interested in submitting to it. I would love a chance to play starfinder (only GMed and played in one game that died after a week).
In interest of making it go through I thought I would petition my players!
So...any ideas?
Even IF Basil finds it with See Invisibility AND Thawm splashes it with a Glitterdust, it's still flying and doing so fast.
That means with Double-Move Actions and Withdraw-Actions it is likely able to evade conflict for as long as is convenient for it, basically skirmishing every time it is fully healed and then starting to run again - at the same time draining us of resources until we are sufficiently weakened.
Did we get some Tanglefoot Bags from our Alchemist Lady yet?
Well, I can fly again with Gauntlet if needs be, as long as I can see my target I can try and hit it.
I can also dismiss Gauntlet and start summoning multiple creatures to hunt down the thing. I can summon a single Velociraptor with Scent too...that might sniff out the thing. Or a bunch of small Air Elementals to search physically. It can't stay invisible forever. My summoned creatures last longer than a normal spell too.
How could you hit it while flying?
If it withdraws, it ignores the first threatened square, and if it double-moves to place any kind of obstacle, you cannot charge - so even if you match the speed(and I have a feeling you won't) you could only double-move next to it, allowing it to withdraw again.(until such time as it's fully healed and full-attacks instead.)
And what makes you think it can't stay invisible forever? Even if it's not an at will, the resiliency it has shown so far makes me believe the duration will be lenghty - but as said, the invisibility is just added on top, the mobility is troubling. We need some way of trapping it or locking it in a position.
Because of fast healing, going to keep it in init for now.
I like the thinking, everyone. Let me know what you think of.
So, 7 rounds is probably enough to find it, but the bat won't have the damage output we need.
We'll need to grapple it or summon things that can chase after it, I think.
I'll cast Haste when we find it again. Maybe on all of us + a Lantern Archon? Whaddya think, Keldor? :3
@Basil: You are merely assuming it is faster than me, but I understand the worry. I did pick up a decent longbow. So I can also still shoot arrows at range now either using Gauntlet or my normal form. [+1 composite Longbow (+2Str)].
@Thawm: It sounds like a useable plan with haste and a summoning or two. Do you want to call the Lantern Archon or do you want me to do it, or both of us? Don't forget that a Celestial Bat would get a single 'smite evil' attack too so it should hurt the creature somewhat if it hits. Small air elementals would be able to keep up with it too.
Do we have something of a plan started now?
OH SNAP
Smite Evil bypasses DR :D
I'll do the bat, though. We should have more firepower for longer, so I'll make the weaker buddy that'll only last 7 rounds :P
Also, you want to fly around again, and you're already smiting it, right? :D
I am assuming that it has 60 feet fly speed with better maneuverability than you - but yeah, I assumed you had 40 feet - but yeah, haste changes that, at least for a couple rounds.
A longbow may be workable if it flees outside, but then it can run for 240 feet and each turn you spend attacking, it gets ~2 range increments away.
My main issue is that it seems hard to catch up with something that is about equally fast and may want to get away if YOUR means run out after a while while theirs are permanent.
I am all up for trying and it sounds solid, but I would still prefer if we had SOME means of stopping it in it's tracks. Maybe 1d3 Giant Frogs would be preferably over the Lantern Archon?
Point being: It is currently invisible. Me or the bat could pinpoint it, possibly, but unless Thawm is near us and ready to make it visible, it can withdraw out of the range of blindsense/see invisibility, making it a chance-based thing to find it again.
Basically I believe we can find it and act, but unless we strike decisively, it may evade us and run until such time as our strongest benefits(some summons, haste etc.) run out and it's healthy again.
Does Thawm have any idea of how SMART this creature is? It tried to read our thoughts so I am afraid it may be smart enough to not act stupid. If it hears us casting(or even has spellcraft and knows what we cast) it may decide to run right there and return in 10 minutes or so...
Maybe Gauntlet can pin it? :3
Anyway, if it runs like hell, we'll at least be able to explore the ruins better.
Also, you move half speed while blinded, so there's that.
Here's hoping it has a crap will save xD
My Smite Evil lasts until the creature is dead or I rest for the day. I can try and pin it as needed. I'm not immune to the pain, but since its a poison save I would really have to roll badly w/Gauntlet for even a single hit to affect me.
Speculation: We are in tunnels/hallways right? I think flying is unnecessary unless it leaves the area. Haste should work for now, and we can try to corner it.
Sorry...I'm tired. Let's list this step by step?
1. Summon Bat???
2. ???
2. Follow bat to the enemy xD
If it can't detect the enemy within 40', then
2a) spend full round actions to push the animal to do tricks it doesn't know that might lead it within 40'
3. Glitter dust on bat/enemy
4. ???
5. Profit
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I know the smite evil lasts. But Haste/Fly/etc won't.
That is what I am worried about, that we run out of resources if it manages to get away from us until such time as IT decides to give combat again.(when all our buffs run out and its healed).
That may be sufficient time for some basic exploration, but still become worrysome.
That said, it's not only the bat. I have see Invisibility active, as well. So we can do a two-pronged approach. But since it withdraw(due to being heavily wounded) I suspect that finding it, by itself, will not be enough to make it stand and fight.
So
1.: Have Basil or Bat find enemy.
2.: Have Thawm Glitterdust it to negate invisibility before it manages to relocate.
3.: Fix it in place or reliable be able to catch up to it if it tries to flee after being dusted.
(Since it likely has high fly speed, we might need flight on our own if it makes it to open terrain, and probably only have a few rounds of haste where we have superior speed.)
4.: Waste it.
5.: High Fives all around and continue exploration.
Works for me. Let's do it!
Works for me. Let's do it!
Gauntlet, go ahead and do your step and we will move along 1 more Round.
This this is wiley, for sure.
thawm is. She spends one Full Round Action this round, then at the start of her turn next round we get it and she gets to act again.
1 round casting time sux. You get it for a SA. It's good. You should try it sometimes :P
@GM: assuming it doesn't figure out what I'm doing and attack me, I'll just succeed. Should I just narrate the start of the next round? XD
oh wait, maybe you can!
You'd know if the bat can hear the monster or not (after it moves again). Thawm will summon the bat into the area to the north. The first place we visited. Depending on how it reacts to either seeing an enemy it can attack to the best of its ability or seeing no enemies, I can decide whether to use Handle Animal or cast a spell :D
Dire Bat (which is what I'll summon)
also, Celestial Template will give the bat some SR, resistances, and
smite evil 1/day as a swift action (adds Cha bonus to attack rolls and damage bonus equal to HD against evil foes; smite persists until target is dead or the celestial creature rests)
which is +4 damage and ignore DR when used on evil creatures.
Also, oddly, it's 40' Blindsense not Blindsight.
It still has that 50% miss chance, it just always knows the square if the enemy is within 40'.
Keldor tries to be prepared for anything, keeping his Detect Evil constantly in use as he looks around.
Except of course this is discussion, not gameplay, and uses a different Seed for Rolls.
With the size, dex and bonus from invisibility, I doubt the natural 20 makes much difference regarding your Perception roll, but for correctness, you may want to properly post in gameplay.
Crap! Sorry my mistake.
different seed? Hax, I call hax.
edit to avoid double post:
I should just grab the Feral Speech wizard discovery...
Apologies for not posting yet - I know I'm up, but I wanted to check map and consider options.
One one hand, it will know I can see it if I shoot it now - on the other hand, I don't know if you are close enough so that Thawm could give me a haste if I shouted out for her to do so.
Or try and move on, then come back with you and hope it's still there - but it may decide to relocate if I am too suspicious.
So yeah, I'll try and post soon, sorry for holding things up.
No worries.
Ignore what I said in gameplay, you do have a full round not just a standard.
Group heading back through to talk to rats?
That was my thought if we didn't want to wait until the next day.
Yes please ^^
Apologies for the delay - I did post the info over in the Starfinder game, but there has been an terror attack earlier this week in Vienna, where I life. I posted very little around that time, having my head elsewhere.
(I know I am often slow on weekends, but I usually try and keep up during the week - )
<3 e-hugs <3
Take your time. If we were worried we would have tried to contact you. This game has been pretty casual so far, so no need to stress about us...
=)
I just realized...Keldor would probably advocate for rescuing the Brother first. The longer he is with the enemy, the less likely he will survive the cannibals and their dinner tables.
That's my two cents.
No, regarding the Array, I wanted to Lords of Rust to move in - she wants to blow it up to prevent them from taking over the area.
So letting them move in and THEN blowing it up would weaken the Lords of Rust and make it easier for us to get to Hellion.
But that will take time to arrange, as she said - spreading a rumor that the Raiders are taking the Array for themselves(to get the Lords of Rust to send a Heavy Combat Group to push the Rats from the array and get blown to smithereens in the process) will take a week or so. I simply inquired to get this started in the mean time.
But I definitely intended to go for the brother first. Hence why I said the Smilers hospitality will be lacking/we might be on a tight schedule there.
We are just lucky they are cannibals and he's a rat.
This sounds really dangerous to tackle directly:
"Well, the smilers are terrible people.. Most of them live in strange huts and shacks throughout their territory. If you plan on attacking their headquarters though.. Hmm"
"I believe the building they live in is an ancient Medical Facility. So its not just a cave or wood structure. It is made of sky metals. Their leader is a Hobgoblin necromancer named Marrow. You can put the pieces together, medical lab, necromancer, ancient tech.. Those things do not lead to a happy place."
"I can't tell you much of the layout of in inside, though I do know that there are defenses on the outside. Strange fire rays can be fired out. So maybe prepare for defense of fire. I can prepare some Resist Energy for you in the morning, if you wish"
Do we want to perform a frontal assault on a building (crashed ship) that can fire lasers at us? Although I appreciate the spell boosts from the GM/NPC priestess of course.
Should we try and sneak in and out? I know that's not our forte' as a group, but...
Thawm and I could summon some fire resistant 'helpers' to distract the Smilers' for a minute or two, then try to sneak in. Not a great plan, but we don't exactly have an idea what we are getting ourselves into yet, do we? I expect getting IN will be hard enough, but finding and getting the brother OUT will probably be a lot harder if the whole place is an 'alien hospital abattoir of death and undeath'.
If you can make us and redtooth's brother invisible, we can sneak in while Basil covers our retreat near the entrance with a ballista and rifle :3
With Hide from Undead, we can sneak past the mindless undead without a fight ^_^
Well, it is not a Fortress per ce...if most of them live in shacks it seems reasonable to assume this ship is not TOO large. Probably more like a medical frigate or something - with minor self-defense capabilities.
That said, I am fully on board with trying to sneak in. I doubt sneaking out will work properly. If there is, I would like to see the "map" of the approach.
I think that may impact our decision on how to proceed as well.
If the building is flanked with shacks providing cover and a single approach to the entrance, it's something different from standing open and with clear visibility in all directions.
Agreed.