2 new traditions of magic

Within the The Prophecy of Nethys, Nethys want to combine two opposing essence of magic into 2 new traditions, but he die either before or after he succeed at his experiment. But what if Nethys successfully make 2 new tradition? What would their name and characteristic be like? Matter and Spirit is easier to imagine than Mind and Life, Matter and Spirit tradition would be about influencing both the matieral world and spirit world in subtle way Mesmerist would be this tradition. Mind and Life is a bit tricker, they would be have bit of divine touch to them, but have that esoteric bit that make occult, so something like Spiritualist would be in this tradition.

I see the Essences as being of one of two types : what you affect : Matter (tangible) or Spirit (intangible) and how you go about affecting it : Mental (mind, logic) or Vital (faith, instinct).

IMO, there cannot be Traditions blending 2 Essences beyond the 4 Traditions we already have because they would be missing an essential component.

Matter + Spirit would be missing how you go about affecting them : not the mind/logic nor the faith/instinct.

Mental + Vital would be missing what you affect : not the tangible nor the intangible.

I see the Essences as being of one of two types : what you affect : Matter (tangible) or Spirit (intangible) and how you go about affecting it : Mental (mind, logic) or Vital (faith, instinct).

IMO, there cannot be Traditions blending 2 Essences beyond the 4 Traditions we already have because they would be missing an essential component.

This makes a lot of sense and (to me) feels like pretty much how it's been described in the text... but I'm still just a lit dissatisfied with this explanation, or at least with how the explanation kind of ends there. It's one thing to say that Arcane magic is when you control matter using you mind, but even if we ignore Arcane's tendency to reach beyond its banks, we readily find spells where the mind is the subject being affected.

It might not even be a thing that bothers anyone else--it's just the way I read that description, the 'active' essence takes on a role in spellcasting (acting upon the subject of the spell) while the 'substance' essence merely gets to be one of two groups of targets for those spells.
I can't pretend to have any pet theories about how to square this particular hole, yet, I'm just stroking my chin and furrowing my brow like any other armchair philosopher.

On that note, I'm increasingly leaning in to the possibility that each of the four traditions isn't just the discipline associated with two particular essences, but perhaps also a unique energy that flows through the world where those two essences are brought together. On the other hand this might be an entirely superficial distinction, but I do enjoy theorizing about how magic could work despite knowing the way it does work is based more on ludonarrative needs rather than derived from first principles.

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And I guess all that is just a way to say I don't know what the cross-essence traditions might look like and I'm more than a little tempted to agree with RB that perhaps these cross-essences are fundamentally nonstarter combinations.

Then again, just because something might be impossible in the setting doesn't mean it's impossible to imagine. Aside from a straightforward stapling together of elemental 'matter' spells and the force/sonic 'spirit' spells, I might imagine that the Spirit/Matter tradition is somewhat shamanic in nature, one foot in the spirit world and one foot in this world (ignoring for a moment that the Animist class is already intending to fill this niche to some degree, and the Druid already does to another). Given how quintessence 'spirit matter' seems to be able to take the form of any substance, Matter-spirit may just well be the ultimate creation tradition, blending spiritual and physical substance to create impossible objects and materials tied to a 'more real' core of physical essence.

With 'heart and mind' together, the Mind/Life essence would presumably be the absolute star of manipulation magic, able to influence anyone with a consciousness, or up to creating magical 'AI's with thoughts and feelings but no form.

I see the Essences as being of one of two types : what you affect : Matter (tangible) or Spirit (intangible) and how you go about affecting it : Mental (mind, logic) or Vital (faith, instinct).

IMO, there cannot be Traditions blending 2 Essences beyond the 4 Traditions we already have because they would be missing an essential component.

Matter + Spirit would be missing how you go about affecting them : not the mind/logic nor the faith/instinct.

Mental + Vital would be missing what you affect : not the tangible nor the intangible.

That is on the assumption that the essential components as we currently understand them are all there is. Perhaps they are incomplete understandings, or, something grander - like the existence of Gods - suppresses other components, but now they are starting to emerge again.

Just like real world physics, if we think we have the mechanics locked up tight, its really because we aren't seeing the whole picture.

Even if the mixing of Matter and Spirit or Mind and Life isn't possible, it's still fun to theorize what could be. We see the mixing of matter and spirit in other media like Werewolf from World/Chronicle of Darkness, and mind and life from life essence across mythology.

Then again, just because something might be impossible in the setting doesn't mean it's impossible to imagine. Aside from a straightforward stapling together of elemental 'matter' spells and the force/sonic 'spirit' spells, I might imagine that the Spirit/Matter tradition is somewhat shamanic in nature, one foot in the spirit world and one foot in this world (ignoring for a moment that the Animist class is already intending to fill this niche to some degree, and the Druid already does to another). Given how quintessence 'spirit matter' seems to be able to take the form of any substance, Matter-spirit may just well be the ultimate creation tradition, blending spiritual and physical substance to create impossible objects and materials tied to a 'more real' core of physical essence.

With 'heart and mind' together, the Mind/Life essence would presumably be the absolute star of manipulation magic, able to influence anyone with a consciousness, or up to creating magical 'AI's with thoughts and feelings but no form.

I was thinking the same thing.

I wonder why they introduce 4 essence of magic with each tradition having 2 essence, which left us with 2 missing combination, when they could have just have each tradition be 1 essence.

I wonder why they introduce 4 essence of magic with each tradition having 2 essence, which left us with 2 missing combination, when they could have just have each tradition be 1 essence.

That to me feels like no great mystery. Traditions being the synthesis of building blocks feels generally more interesting, and furthermore allows much more thematically significant overlap between different traditions, than making each tradition a wholly unique thing that shares nothing in common with another. If, for example, the traditions were each one essence, wizards would presumably lose their ties to mind and double down on their flashy fireball magics, disappointing every subtle enchantment player coming from 1e, while clerics in order to stay opposite would hone in on purely spiritual matters and either have to lose out on healing to druids (whose idea of life magic would probably focus especially on shapeshifting living forms) or develop some new kinds of spiritual healing.

... And if not changing anything, just deciding that "Arcane is arcane essence, Occult is occult essence," I suppose what would the point be of those essences not having any overlap? If the traditions have purely arbitrary essences, why not make a dozen different traditions and their essences? Well, aside from the obvious, that the four traditions were made in part to cut down on bespoke spell lists for each class and systematize some of the arbitrariness inherited from D&D-style spellcasting.

From a game mechanics standpoint, I don't think it would be a good idea to create new traditions. Certainly not on a whim. I think the Elementalist spell list was a mistake.

The reason is because there becomes one of two hard problems that have to be solved.

With the four traditions, every spell created and printed will list which of those four traditions it appears on. There doesn't need to be a master list listing them all out (and if there does need to be one like Archives of Nethys has, it can be generated automatically) and any new spells created will have the tradition designation on them and will be updated to the master list automatically.

But now let's look at the Elementalist spell list. It is static. It does need a listing of what spells are and are not on the list. It was first created in Secrets of Magic and then updated in Rage of Elements. But when Howl of the Wild and War of Immortals come out, if either of those books include any new spells, none of those spells will be added to the Elementalist spell list automatically. The master list of Elementalist spells will need to be re-published.

So adding two new general spell traditions is theoretically possible, but it would require errata for all of the existing spells in order to update them on which of the new traditions the spells also show up on. Either that or every new spell created will have to spark a new complete authoritative publishing of the spell lists for the new traditions.

But anyway. Enough raining on the parade. Back to your regularly scheduled speculation and fantasizing and homebrew idea generating.

I'm not sure what to call a possible material/spirit tradition, but I've been thinking of a potential life/mind tradition as "Mystic" spellcasting for a while now. I picked that word both because it has two syllables like the other traditions, and that makes my brain smile, and because life/mind feels a lot like what the SF1E's mystic was going for with a lot of their flavor. I think it'd focus on a lot of what the mystic liked, too. Connections of emotion and health between people, creating webs or unions, healing, and some psychic power stuff thrown in for good measure. I don't imagine that the tradition would be very good at throwing around big, flashy effects like fireballs, and it probably wouldn't be good at summoning, but buffing, healing, and some debuffery feel well within its wheelhouse, as well as some attacks involving mental or vitality/perhaps void damage.

But now let's look at the Elementalist spell list. It is static. It does need a listing of what spells are and are not on the list. It was first created in Secrets of Magic and then updated in Rage of Elements. But when Howl of the Wild and War of Immortals come out, if either of those books include any new spells, none of those spells will be added to the Elementalist spell list automatically.

This isn't true. Check out Rage of Elements page 59 under Elemental Philosophy. Every elementalist gets the (small, generic, fixed) universal list of spells, and every spell that shares elemental traits of their philosophy (either air/water/earth/fire or earth/fire/metal/wood/water without also sharing a trait they don't have in their elemental philosophy).

So future single elemental trait spells will go on Elementalist lists, and dual (or more) elemental trait spells may, depending on the mix and whether the Elementalist took the feats to add missing traits to their philosophy. (The "no elemental traits missing from your philosophy" rule, incidentally, is why things like Cataclysm and Summon Elemental Hearald had to be put on the universal list - each is overinclusive in elemental traits.)

Player Core 1 and 2 spells also interact with this rule. Howling Blizard has the air trait, so it's on the spell list of Inner Sea Elementalism followers, but not Elemental Cycle philosophy casters. The opposite is true of Impaling Spike and a lot of wood trait spells in PC1.

This isn't true. Check out Rage of Elements page 59 under Elemental Philosophy.

And then it continues with "As Rage of Elements is the first book to include the wood and metal traits, your GM might allow you to add more spells from other books that fit the metal or wood element but first appeared without the trait, adding the relevant trait to the spell."

Nitpicking the example isn't really addressing the problems that I am describing. Adding a tradition or two involves a great deal of work. Lots of errata, or re-publishing of static spell lists.

Or, I suppose as you are pointing out, complicated and confusing algorithmic rules to try and automatically add spells based on traits or other designations. I'm not sure that makes things better though.

I understand that you find this system of comparing the presense or absense of a trait to a simple conditional complicated and confusing. I think very few other people do.

It involves looking at the traits of each of the spells and doing two comparisons for each of those traits. One check to see that the spell has all of the traits that it needs and one check to ensure that it doesn't have traits that are not allowed.

But that is still missing the point.

What algorithm would you recommend for a hypothetical matter/spirit tradition? What trait combinations would you look to in order to determine if a potential spell from Player Core, such as Jump, is on the list or not?

Trying to mix the opposites.

Matter (tangible) and Spirit (intangible) : maybe something about going from one to the other. And a way to create the fifth essence (quintessence).

It does sound like the mythological version of alchemy : transmuting matter on your way to more spiritual metamorphoses, or even perfection.

Now, Mental (mind, logic) and Vital (faith, instinct), I'm a bit stuck. Maybe something of fusing both approaches to get a global understanding of things, a holistic view of the whole of reality that you can then apply to the subject that latters to you. That sounds a bit like philosophy.

And where both meet, you would find the Philosopher's Stone of true immortality.

What algorithm would you recommend for a hypothetical matter/spirit tradition? What trait combinations would you look to in order to determine if a potential spell from Player Core, such as Jump, is on the list or not?

I wouldn't, the very basis of this thread is nonsensical.

Finoan wrote:

What algorithm would you recommend for a hypothetical matter/spirit tradition? What trait combinations would you look to in order to determine if a potential spell from Player Core, such as Jump, is on the list or not?

I wouldn't, the very basis of this thread is nonsensical.

Exactly.

The Elemental spell list kinda works because it is tightly themed and involves traits that spells already have. But even with that it is an example of the problems that a new spell list would run into.

For a general purpose spell list that is supposed to be on the same level as the four primary tradition lists, doing it algorithmically becomes nearly impossible. Which leaves either errata for all existing spells or continually updating the spell list for all new spells.

Nitpicking the example of the Elemental list doesn't change that.

Xenocrat wrote:

Finoan wrote:

What algorithm would you recommend for a hypothetical matter/spirit tradition? What trait combinations would you look to in order to determine if a potential spell from Player Core, such as Jump, is on the list or not?

I wouldn't, the very basis of this thread is nonsensical.

Exactly.

The Elemental spell list kinda works because it is tightly themed and involves traits that spells already have. But even with that it is an example of the problems that a new spell list would run into.

For a general purpose spell list that is supposed to be on the same level as the four primary tradition lists, doing it algorithmically becomes nearly impossible. Which leaves either errata for all existing spells or continually updating the spell list for all new spells.

Nitpicking the example of the Elemental list doesn't change that.

The OP was not talking about spell lists though.

The OP was not talking about spell lists though.

I'm confused.

But what if Nethys successfully make 2 new tradition? What would their name and characteristic be like?

Are you going to have a tradition that doesn't have any spells in its tradition list?

Now, Mental (mind, logic) and Vital (faith, instinct), I'm a bit stuck. Maybe something of fusing both approaches to get a global understanding of things, a holistic view of the whole of reality that you can then apply to the subject that latters to you. That sounds a bit like philosophy.

And where both meet, you would find the Philosopher's Stone of true immortality.

Mixing Logic with Faith, what comes to mind for me is Prophecy.

Matter (tangible) and Spirit (intangible) : maybe something about going from one to the other. And a way to create the fifth essence (quintessence).

It does sound like the mythological version of alchemy : transmuting matter on your way to more spiritual metamorphoses, or even perfection.

Keeping with the theme of magic that already exists - Transmuting the physical to spiritual and attaining perfection, all of that sounds like Ascension. Magic that turns one into a god (with fun spells like Create Starstone).

...

Now if we plug those two Traditions into Nethys' death... Nethys would have been trying to restore the power of Prophecy AND create a magical Tradition of spells that grant godhood, all at the same time. Is it any wonder everything blew up?

The Raven Black wrote:

The OP was not talking about spell lists though.

I'm confused.

Paolingou wrote:

But what if Nethys successfully make 2 new tradition? What would their name and characteristic be like?

Are you going to have a tradition that doesn't have any spells in its tradition list?

I see a Tradition as something more than a spell list. Especially because the latter is an element of the game system whereas the former is a part of the setting.

Now, if we were given new Traditions for use by PCs, I fully expect they would have a spell list with mostly new spells and maybe a few existing spells that would acquire a new Tradition trait.

But here I feel the OP was talking about the concept rather than the concrete implementation for PCs with spell lists and all.

The Raven Black wrote:

Now, Mental (mind, logic) and Vital (faith, instinct), I'm a bit stuck. Maybe something of fusing both approaches to get a global understanding of things, a holistic view of the whole of reality that you can then apply to the subject that latters to you. That sounds a bit like philosophy.

And where both meet, you would find the Philosopher's Stone of true immortality.

Mixing Logic with Faith, what comes to mind for me is Prophecy.

Which would be fitting, since Prophecy is in fact a type of magic that is lost (at least in its reliable form).

The Raven Black wrote:

Matter (tangible) and Spirit (intangible) : maybe something about going from one to the other. And a way to create the fifth essence (quintessence).

It does sound like the mythological version of alchemy : transmuting matter on your way to more spiritual metamorphoses, or even perfection.

Keeping with the theme of magic that already exists - Transmuting the physical to spiritual and attaining perfection, all of that sounds like Ascension. Magic that turns one into a god (with fun spells like Create Starstone).

So here it's not that the magic is lost, it's just that no one, not even the gods, can control it.

...

Now if we plug those two Traditions into Nethys' death... Nethys would have been trying to restore the power of Prophecy AND create a magical Tradition of spells that grant godhood, all at the same time. Is it any wonder everything blew up?

However we call them, Nethys tried to unite polar opposites. Which reality as we know it cannot condone because absolute unity is incompatible with a diverse reality. Reality needs at least duality for such fundamentals as multiple things, change and laws of causality to exist.

It is ironic but unsurprising that Nethys who was an incarnation of the power of duality was destroyed when trying to regress everything to unity.

It seems to me that, in spite of his divine knowledge, he was still a slave to the dreams and ambitions of his mortal mindset and thus tried to reach for the truly impossible without even realizing it.

Xenocrat wrote:

Finoan wrote:

What algorithm would you recommend for a hypothetical matter/spirit tradition? What trait combinations would you look to in order to determine if a potential spell from Player Core, such as Jump, is on the list or not?

I wouldn't, the very basis of this thread is nonsensical.

Exactly.

The Elemental spell list kinda works because it is tightly themed and involves traits that spells already have. But even with that it is an example of the problems that a new spell list would run into.

For a general purpose spell list that is supposed to be on the same level as the four primary tradition lists, doing it algorithmically becomes nearly impossible. Which leaves either errata for all existing spells or continually updating the spell list for all new spells.

Nitpicking the example of the Elemental list doesn't change that.

So...errata the spells. It's work, I think there's 900 of them or so now, but it's a finite amount of work. Especially since you don't have to remove anything that's already there, or revise any tags, just add new words to the "Tradition" line. Probably wouldn't even need to adjust any layout, and that would be my biggest worry for this kind of project.

And if you now have 5 or 6 traditions, you simply print new spells with the appropriate traditions listed, same as they are now. Just with 6 options instead of 4.

I personally hope that Starfinder 2 (the final version, not the playtest coming up) has completely new traditions for that game. Overlapping to some extent with our current 4, but not hewing to it when that doesn't make sense. One of the problems pointed out is that all the "space" theme spells are pushed towards the occult spell list, and it makes more sense for those to be more widely universal in a SF setting. Simply abandoning PF's 4 and starting over for SF2 has a lot of appeal to me, even if you'd now need to assign a tradition to a class when you play one written for one game in the other. For example, if you played a Mystic in PF, you'd need to decide what tradition they'd get in PF since their choices don't exist. Again, work, but not insurmountable and I think the benefits far outweigh the disadvantages.

So going about this a different way, there are 20 spells that are on both the primal and occult spell list, but no other list. There are also 11 spells that are divine and arcane, but only divine and arcane. These are opposite traditions, there is no essence overlap, so these spells must be the combination of 2 essences, and they need to be "opposed" essences or else the tradition that had both would have them. so while there is only 31 spells that appear to combine these essences, they do exist.

So going about this a different way, there are 20 spells that are on both the primal and occult spell list, but no other list. There are also 11 spells that are divine and arcane, but only divine and arcane. These are opposite traditions, there is no essence overlap, so these spells must be the combination of 2 essences, and they need to be "opposed" essences or else the tradition that had both would have them. so while there is only 31 spells that appear to combine these essences, they do exist.

A list of those spells might shed more light here.

Filtering in Nethys shows that a lot of them are from APs, and therefore presumptively incompetent. Examples from real books include things like Daemon/Demon/Devil Form that were put on both the divine and arcane lists as a sop to angry wizard players still chimping out over not being able to summon these.

Similarly, Occult/Primal share the Summon Fey and Fey Form spells. There's also sort of traditionally witch themed "living stuff, but in a creepy way" that they gave to both lists, like Moth's Supper, Shadow Spy, and Bursting Bloom.

So going about this a different way, there are 20 spells that are on both the primal and occult spell list, but no other list. There are also 11 spells that are divine and arcane, but only divine and arcane. These are opposite traditions, there is no essence overlap, so these spells must be the combination of 2 essences, and they need to be "opposed" essences or else the tradition that had both would have them. so while there is only 31 spells that appear to combine these essences, they do exist.

Interesting. Arcane (Matter in this Case) and Divine (Spirit) spell are about summoning, death, imbueing, transforming, and influencing. Which I guess make sense since spirit mix with flesh without life and mind kind of make mindless undead and spirit can be mix with living flesh to make it something more, and summoing require spirit and matter for reason. While Occult (Mind) and Primal (Life) spell are stuff like fate, element, life, animal, mind, healing, curse. Sort of folkloric in a way, you would see these kind of spell in folklore use by witch, hag, and the fey.

You can make yourself dizzy trying to rationalize all of the game design choices made to fit PF1 classes into 4 traditions of magic. Secrets of Magic is a really fun and interesting book, but it is important to remember that mechanically, the rules of magic are actually about balance, class fantasy, and niche protection, not about actually creating a magic system from scratch that is internally logical and scientific in its application. Narratively, this is ok, because all of the perspectives on the way magic works currently are "best current theories" not doctrines of fact recorded by gods who know with certainty. If we end up getting 2 new elemental planes in a couple of years, or 4 additional traditions of magic, all of that stuff would still be possible now narratively in world, it is just that no one knows about it.

Which means you are free to homebrew any additional spells or intersections of spells and magical traditions that you want for your own games or your own imagining of Golarion. Any future content that does it differently from yours won't be core books anyway, so you can choose to either integrate what you want into what they provide, or completely ignore it if you want to.

Filtering in Nethys shows that a lot of them are from APs, and therefore presumptively incompetent. Examples from real books include things like Daemon/Demon/Devil Form that were put on both the divine and arcane lists as a sop to angry wizard players still chimping out over not being able to summon these.

Similarly, Occult/Primal share the Summon Fey and Fey Form spells. There's also sort of traditionally witch themed "living stuff, but in a creepy way" that they gave to both lists, like Moth's Supper, Shadow Spy, and Bursting Bloom.

I agree for the first. Wizards do need to summon Fiends. Who would they sell their souls to otherwise ? Also think of the Hellknights who need their daily diet of Devils.

For the second, I feel they belong to the strange tales (Occult) told about Nature (Primal). Fey in particular have always been stuck in an awkward place as far as Traditions are concerned.

Wizards do need to summon Fiends. Who would they sell their souls to otherwise ?

I believe that is more in line with the rituals binding circle and planar binding (and infernal contracts) than a temporary planar minion.

The Raven Black wrote:

Wizards do need to summon Fiends. Who would they sell their souls to otherwise ?

I believe that is more in line with the rituals binding circle and planar binding (and infernal contracts) than a temporary planar minion.

The first taste is always for free. You've got to start small to make it a bad habit. The serious stuff comes later.

I always wonder, in these fantasy games, whether the designers have an underlying theory of how magic that for whatever reason they are keeping secret. Something that, in this case, would resolve all these questions. OTOH, perhaps Occam's Razor says "nope, these problems exist because there is no such underlying theory."

I always wonder, in these fantasy games, whether the designers have an underlying theory of how magic that for whatever reason they are keeping secret. Something that, in this case, would resolve all these questions. OTOH, perhaps Occam's Razor says "nope, these problems exist because there is no such underlying theory."

Likely the latter. An underlying unified model of magic would be very personal. I feel "which spell should go where" would make Alignment debates seem pretty tame in comparison.

One of the things I like about Harnmaster's magic system is that there is an underlying theory about how it all works. It's called "Pvarism" or "Pvaric philosophy". It holds that there are six elements — earth, air, fire, water, metal, and spirit, and that almost all magic falls under one of these elements. Almost because there are spells that modify other spells or that otherwise have no discernible elemental affiliation. These are "neutral" spells. There are Common spells — those for which there is a version in each element. Focus and Sanctum (both of which enhance the casting of spells of their element) are two examples.

The other side of the coin is that the rules say "there are other possible systems of magic" without saying anything at all about what they might be. :-)