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I used to work the old graveyard/weekends shift with no guaranteed holidays off so I completely understand how that and family stuff can really just take all of one's time. No worries from me, get whatever rest you can get and we'll start 2019 off nice and easy!
New job is much nicer, but now I have an infant soo... it's about a wash. :P
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I used to work swing shift, it was the worst. Week 1 was 7am-3pm Mon-Wed, and midnight to noon Sat+Sun; week 2 was 3pm-11pm Mon-Fri; week 3 was 7am-3pm Thur+Fri, and noon to midnight Sat+Sun; and week 4 was 11pm-7am Mon-Fri (then back to week 1). My sleep 'schedule' was a total mess and half the time I hardly knew what day it was. Honestly, after that having babies didn't seem that bad, lol.
I think I'm the only one here that isn't a parent but yeah, pretty sure babies are a net gain in the long run :)
My schedule used to be a lot worse when I was working 10 hour shifts with no set days and I would have both day shifts and night shifts in the same week. At least now I'm on one shift (nights) and doing 3 12s each week instead of 4 10s. There's also the possibility that I might start getting set nights beginning with the next schedule which would be truly fantastic if it happens.
And I dunno if I'd call it 'crisis mode' but my workplace has been at max or near max patient capacity of late and while we've not seen any positive flu tests (yet) we *are* starting to see strep and RSV popping up so things will definitely be getting busier for the next few months.
^Thanks for checking in!
I'll give Hepsubia a little more time to make a post before I give things a nudge myself ;)
^No worries! And I'm still here but given that there's some discussion and such happening I'm a bit loathe to interrupt it just yet (and also because it's the weekend and posting is usually slower anyway).
Hey, no worries - it's not the first time that post notifications have gotten jacked up for someone!
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So, I know sometimes in PbP we have to skip right to the action but how many rounds was your post? It looks like a double move up to the second floor and then breaking down the door in a second round? I only ask because having an extra round before anyone looks down will make a huge difference in my next action...
Yeah, I'd say two rounds minimum for people to get up the stairs and into the office.
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So this is bugging the crap outta me and I'll just say it. Is everyone else fine with the evil act of attempted murder in this game? If so, fine. I'll roll with the majority. Obviously in character Maria doesn't know any details and will have to try to find stuff out in the normal fashion.
This has been really bugging me and I've been holding off on posting a bit due to it. I have never in my life seen this kind of situation occur in a Pathfinder Society game so I've honestly just been a bit stunned.
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No, but...
I'm willing to give the player the benefit of the doubt that the character was acting on a mistaken impression that there was a thief just as I am having Zithembe act on a mistaken impression that there's a third party involved.
My personal preference/hope, because we're so far off the rails with this quest, is that we never discover the "assassin" and then Sylvak has to deal with keeping the secret or confessing to his companions at a later date.
But to the general point, I would hope 'murderhobo' wouldn't become the modus operandi.
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I was acting under the belief that I was stopping a thief (and as it turns out I was, in fact, doing so), but I also had no idea that people were going to have ooc objections to that approach... this is my first experience with PFS but I had heard from some friends who have played in TT PFS games that that sort of thing was pretty common?
So, I am sorry for causing problems, although I did specifically ask everyone how they felt about me playing a worshiper of Achaekek (the god of assassins) and nobody objected... Maybe I’ll rebuild one more time after this adventure?
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Tbh I thought there was a bad guy creeping around in the dark about to steal some stuff. While it certainly was a thief, it was a twist for it to be the student!
I can see how this would be off putting, but I am not personally bothered by it. As long as it isn't our only approach to situations/used sparingly, etc. (as Zithembe seems to be saying). I think so far it has played out ok.
Hey folks, I've also been keeping an eye on the situation and thinking over how I want to address this sort of thing going forward. Since I did mention that Jianghong had his back to the window (so his identity wasn't readily apparent) and I understand that it was ambiguous as to whether or not this mysterious rummaging figure posed an actual threat, I decided to allow the stated actions to occur because I actually can see the logic there.
However, if Zithembe's supposition is correct in that a clear knowledge of the would-be thief's identity would've resulted in a different action then I will apologize as that was a failing on my part as a GM for not being more clear.
I will also note that it's a fine line to walk when it comes to playing a more 'borderline' character. Some shades of gray here and there are fine and can make for an interesting story but consistently, willfully committing evil actions will result in alignment infractions and eventually an alignment shift to evil - which will mean such a PC is no longer playable.
It can definitely be confusing because we (PFS) allow neutral worshipers of evil gods so you've got neutral clerics of deities like Lamashtu and Asmodeus running around and other characters who use necromancy and raise the dead but it's okay because they put the bones back when they're done with them? Just don't adventure with a Pharasmin or paladins and it's all good, bro! Super confusing and strange sometimes.
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Since I feel like this is my fault, I'm willing to rewind the action to the point where Sylvak peeps into the window if that's what the group would prefer to do. Otherwise we can keep rolling with the current situation; technically you have what you came for and there is a means for the group to get out without having to answer a bunch of questions and get sidetracked by a big investigation (that's beyond the scope of this quest). But that route will still leave the fallout of what happened to be addressed between party members (or kept hidden) and I understand if that's something people would rather not deal with.
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I mean, if I rebuild after this adventure we can pretend my new guy is a totally different person, right? That way we can finish this mission out and nobody will really have to worry long term about fallout?
I don't want to upset things, and I still have one more opportunity to rebuild... I really had no idea that tactic would be such a problem (like I said, that wasn't the impression I got from some local gamers who have played PFS).
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The murderhobo trope is a thing for a reason. Your friends are not wrong, it is pretty common. You kill everything you see and steal their stuff.
However, as I said, I was will to believe that Ladile had tricked the player or the player allowed the character to be tricked. Just because I knew it was the student OOC doesn't mean Sylvak knew it. So, so far, I don't have a problem. It's a twist right now. It could go very wrong with lots of hurt feelings if the truth comes out now in-game without so much hand-waving that it may as well not come out.
If you picked Achaechek because you wanted to play 'kill first, ask questions later' then you may want to reconsider. You have a lot of lawful characters and good or good-leaning, and it's going to get rough if they have to cover up your assaults/murders every scenario.
But to clarify my perception, that doesn't seem to be the case here.
Food for thought, not argument:
Achaechek is the god of divine retribution, specifically. His assassins kill those who have wronged the gods. So as a Divine Tracker of Achaechek, I would expect him to hew more towards that than wanton murder.
The 'less evil' approach would have been to identify who you were attacking before attacking. Technically, there was nothing to suggest it wasn't a stingy teacher who didn't want to waste oil.
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I built him with the intention of being more the divine retribution type... but honestly if backstabbing someone who's almost definitely a thief when I have the drop on him is going to be a problem then this is the wrong character.
I have no problem switching. I was trying something new with Sylvak- I've literally never played a rogue before, and I think this is the first time I've ever actually stabbed an unaware person in the back; it has not been an enjoyable experience. Do the people playing murderhobos in TT games not care when everyone gets mad at them or do people just not say anything at RL games?
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This is excellent, thank you everyone for the discussion. Talking stuff out is definitely the proper way to handle disagreements.
Okay, it seems, from this discussion, that we simply have a new player to the Pathfinder Society format. So let's just start with the basics about Society play in general. A lot of this is in the Roleplaying Guild Guide (current edition is season 10) that is downloadable for free from Paizo.
So, since this is a very accepting very large gaming system, there are a chunk of additional rules for group play that go beyond the scope of 'this is how to build your character and these are the rules for how to mechanically play the game.' The first and foremost right at the start of the game is 'don't be a jerk and don't cheat.' Neither of those is any issue and if anyone feels they as a person are being treated poorly, they should immediately report it to their GM or one of the online Venture Captains (or Paizo directly).
So that stuff aside, there are more rules to keep the game running smoothly and keep most players happy. The one we are dealing with now is mentioned in a small blurb (page 25) in the player creation section and a very large blurb in the GM section (page 14). This boils down to 'don't create an evil character and don't commit evil acts.' Now, the GM side of things lays out how to handle evil acts and gives a lot of leeway to do so, but it boils down to addressing the issue and preventing it from happening again.
Then on Page 34 the Society's guidelines itself are laid out of "Explore, Report and Cooperate." Explore, easy enough. Report, easy enough. Cooperate... can be difficult for certain classes. Honestly, it makes it incredibly hard for a 'traditional' rogue style character. I've played several and honestly, 95% of the time I just give up on being stealthy or scouting because the group clanks around and follows too close and isn't willing to wait to let the rogue actually do their job.
That said, you actually were doing EXACTLY what you should have been doing. Maria scouted inside, ran up against a roadblock and couldn't do anything else. You scouted outside, climbing a wall to get a view. What happened next though, is the actual problem.
Lethal force is reserved for defense. If someone is trying to kill you, lethal force is fine. If someone is trying to kill someone else, lethal force is fine. That's it. In pretty much every other situation it is not going to be your first resort. I completely get your 'divine retribution angle', but does that mean you will kill whenever anyone does anything morally wrong? What if a little street urchin comes up and pick-pockets you, will you kill them too? That's honestly an identical crime to the one for which you tried to kill our friendly idiot. An analogy, Batman punishes evil but refuses to kill (mostly). The Punisher also punishes evil and does kill, but I don't recall him executing shoplifters.
So moving on, how to handle finding a possible thief, who currently does not see you and does not appear to be armed or threatening anyone. Several actions. 1) Do nothing, follow them and report to your allies what you found. 2) Ready an action to defend yourself if attacked and then demand their surrender. 3) Attack, but only with non-lethal force. Most weapons allow for non-lethal force to be used with a -4 penalty applied to hit. Saps do only non-lethal damage and thus don't have a -4 penalty, most characters that can use a Sap should have one for exactly this scenario. Improved Unarmed Strike allows for lethal or non-lethal attacks. There are also a ton of feats and weapon enchants that can allow non-lethal as well, though one is limited at low levels. If one wants to play the 'attack first before the opponent knows you are there' then please look into these non-lethal options.
I'm happy to continue discussing things and happy to admit if I'm wrong about things as well. Fortunately, very few things (and this is not one of them) in game or even out of game can not be resolved.
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The people playing murderhobo either: 1. don't care that people atvthe table get mad (man, those are rough tables at conventions) or 2. everyone at the table is murderhobo-ing.
There is context and nuance that's being skipped over in this discussion, too. And, before I begin, that nuance would be hypocritical in the real world, but it's accepted in Pathfinder (and most fantasy settings).
1. Jurisdiction: We had no authority in the school. Compare to a dungeon or the middle of the Mwangi expanse.
2. Species: Humans (elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, half-elves, and sometimes half-orcs) are wrong to murder. Monsters (orcs, goblins, hobgoblins, bugbears, drow, etc) are OK to murder and leave their corpses all over (even though they're sentient).
3. Context: Thief taking proprty with only monetary value. Compare to thief taking a dangerous artifact or villain preparing to kill someone (or other nastiness that villains do).
4. Fallout: Killing someone without the assent of your companions (in character) where the fallout is very likely going to land on them, too. Compared to doing it with their assent or in a place or manner where the fallout won't touch them.
Summarized: Stabbing a human in the back (to death, he didn't die) whom you did not sufficiently identify as a villain (the scenario does trick you, but you're never allowed to touch him until the end of the chase when his identity is revealed in the scenario as written) for a non-life or limb reason is 'evil.'
Sneaking into an Aspis camp and back-stabbing armed Aspis agents to death is not 'evil', although good-aligned characters may disapprove.
The distinct seems arbitrary, I know.
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I think I'm going to bow out.
I understand now why PFS gets a bad rep in some circles. If multiple apologies and repeated offers to change my character aren't sufficient to curb the lengthy lectures on how and why I'm playing the game wrong (all over a single misunderstanding) then this is clearly not the place for me.
Hey guys, I've sent Sylvak's player a PM but in the meantime I'm going to keep things on pause here until everything is resolved.
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I believe (or, at least, want to believe) that you all intended your posts to be helpful, but the pages of explanation about why I was in the wrong felt an awful lot like lecturing me on a point that I had already accepted, apologized for, and offered a way forward from.
I have zero objection to never backstabbing anyone ever again, as I mentioned that may have been the first time (in 28 years of gaming) that I've ever employed that tactic. The thing I do object to is being browbeaten by other players over a simple misunderstanding.
I've asked Lady Ladile if she would mind having Sylvak follow along quietly for a couple days so I can make a decision after the initial frustration has abated, and, I guess, so you all can decide if you're willing to have me in the group (and that way you won't have to pause things in the meantime). Right now my first experience with society play has just left a really sour taste in my mouth.
For the record, the above is fine with me if it's fine with everyone else. I certainly don't want there to be any hard feelings on anyone's part and I also want this game and this group to be a fun and comfortable experience for everyone.
As I said earlier, we're basically at the end of this quest section so it won't be any problem to let Sylvak drop into the background for a bit until he feels like stepping back to the forefront or deciding to part ways with the group. So I'll move things along later this evening, provided work isn't too busy.
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I don't mind. I hope you'll return on good turns (not because we guilt you into it). You already demonstrated to me that you're capable of adjusting your play in response to player concerns.
I suppose this is a lesson that just because the PbP medium allows us to write lengthy explanations doesn't mean that's the best way for a person to receive our information, whatever the topic.
The asyncronicity of posting and reading can also color the effect. When three people each write a response to one person--sometimes at the same time as each other so you don't even know someone else is posting--and the reader returns after all three posts are made, it can feel like ganging up.
In a face to face game, the discussion (among reasonable players) would be a few sentences and then back to the game because you don't want to waste game time. You also have the benefit of hearing tone and observing facial expressions and body language.
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Clearly uncomfortable with the idea, Rumble begrudgingly puts his hammer aside and eats through the next bowl of dumplings with his feelings.
Poor Rumble; being an emotional eater is such a pain sometimes :(
Hey folks; had a busy Friday and I worked last night. I'll aim to get a post up this afternoon before work if at all possible :)
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In case anyone is curious I've not heard from Sylvak's player in several days in general, not just in relation to this particular game. That said, they mentioned elsewhere that they had a bunch of RL things to take care of last week and I know they also live in one of the regions that just got a bunch of snow so that might be keeping them offline as well. Just the same I'll ping them offsite later on today and make sure things are okay.
In the event that they decide not to rejoin us, we'll finish out the current scenario/quest series with the four of you, Parison will jump in as our 5th player and we'll go from there on whether we want another 6th or not.
Heard from Sylvak's player and RL has been quite busy for them of late. For the time being, I'll be putting the 4-player adjustments into effect to compensate.
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Hey all,
Thanks for being so cool about everything, and sorry for taking so long to post anything. As Ladile mentioned, RL has been nuts and I am in one of the areas shutdown by blizzards and dangerous temperatures (the doorknob for my back door is still frosted over, on the inside of the house). I don't want to complicate things for you guys too much, but given how sporadic my posting is likely to be for the next week or two I think I will just bow out. Happy gaming.
Glad to see you check in Sylvak and I'm sorry to see you go but I definitely understand. For what it's worth, Sylvak still gets credit for the two quests (out of five) that he's completed for House of Harmonious Wisdom so I'll get you a chronicle sheet whipped up a bit later and PM it to you.
And I'll second Rumble; hang in there!
Hey folks, I wanted to check in and say that I'm sick/have been sick. While I'm definitely feeling better than I did, I still seem to have a lot of general malaise and mental fatigue happening + I work the next three nights in a row starting tonight (Saturday). Given the circumstances I'm just going to take the next few days off from PbP; I should be back in action by Tuesday evening at the latest.
Thank you for the well-wishes! I'm feeling much better now and ready to get things moving again (and wrap up this particular quest). Thank you for your patience!