Exiles of Winter PFS scenerio# 2-17 [Recruitment closed] (Inactive)

Game Master lucklesshero

[/lurker]
[jawhar]

I'm honestly not sure retconning in this current situation is appropriate, but the rest of you seem to think so.

I'll play along, certainly, I just feel a little funny about it.

I'll assume we are rolling back to right before entering 3C, until I hear differently from luckless.

Hello all, GM Hmm here.

Sorry for the delay in getting here. It took me a while to figure out which one of Luckless Hero's campaigns was the campaign in question.

I'm calling for a Retcon and reroll of time, because multiple things were slightly wonky here:

1) That the players were aware of the trap in the first place;
2) That because of that awareness and the desire to avoid metagaming, they walked straight into the trap without taking their normal paranoid precautions;
3) That the trap got moved to a different location (generally not kosher in PFS.)

I am aware that there are some maps (*cough* Murder's Mark *cough*) that show traps and secret doors even after you extract just the bottom layer. They weren't savvy about online play back in Season 2, and sometimes had traps marked on the original base map. I've had to do my own weird edits to remove such markers, or cover them up in some way.

Still, I think that this set of circumstances in some ways robbed the players of acting in their own best interests. So, yes, let's retcon this.

In the future... Here are some ideas that can help:

Standard Door Opening / Travel procedure for all groups. Have the group work out with the GM what they are doing in every room, and have the GM auto-roll this in all rooms, whether there is a trap or not.

Ask on Flaxseed for image manipulation help. I'm not the best for this (I barely can operate MS Paint) but there are some GMs who are very skilled and might be willing to help you remove a pesky trap door.

Hope all this helps. Enjoy your time warp.
First a jump to the left, then a step to the ri-i-i-ight!

Your Venture Lieutenant,
Hmm

Thank you GM Hmm...OK everyone we have are ruling and I'm happy with the result. I felt that this instance that the not only the rules but, something of the spirit of the game was lacking so I'm satisfied with GM Hmm's ruling. Thank you all, my gracious players for being patient with me as well. Let's get back to play!

I think we established what should be considered an SOP marching order earlier on. Craggark<-Jamir<-Lia<-Torvald<-Jawhar. We should always use this.

You're right, and that is the order they are in on the Library map at the moment. I just wanted to clarify that I hadn't moved any tokens unless someone had specifically posted a position different than what was shown on the map.

Jawhar, good point about the diagonals through the doorway - I always forget about those. Rereading Craggark's move after seeing your post, I assume Craggark went straight through the dire rat's square - he's going to take an attack of opportunity anyway, and has enough move speed to get where he's going. Unless it has combat reflexes (which would be just like a Joshua J. Frost scenario!), it probably won't change anything.

If the hard corner means Craggark had to move through the rat's space, then a failed acrobatics check means he looses his move action and provokes, so there is one minor difference. The acrobatics DC is CMD+5 to move through an enemy space as opposed to just CMD to move through a threatened space.

Ah, missed that. I didn't realize he would lose the action, too.

I'm sticking to how I managed it guys..It actually works out best for you guys cause if Craggark had actually thrown that thunderstone there's a chance it could have hit the door and bounced in your area. The caster has improved cover and concealment from Craggark's position when he was at the doorway! He was behind two corners a 1/2 opened door and a bookcase unseen... that's +8 to AC and a 50% miss chance...

even if Craggark was just trying to throw around a corner at a spot he had no way of know exactly where the caster was (just the general direction) so he'd be meta gaming to hit the spot (still +4 to hit cause it's around a corner). So no I'm just not going to allow any of this. My ruling is: Craggark is next to the caster ( a good thing for you guys) and he still has the thunderstone ( good/ or bad ). Let's move on.

Sure.

I'm late to discovering the Glass Cannon Podcast - which is awesome, and I highly recommend it to anyone who doesn't get enough roleplaying action in their life already - but did I hear correctly, at the start of Episode 33, a shout-out to our own GM LucklessHero?

yeah I actually sat down with Troy and played in his game at Paizo con. Had a beer with him before he got on the plane.

That's cool - I started listening a couple of weeks ago and I'm only up to about episode 17, so I haven't gotten there yet.

As you many of you may know, I'm actually playing Giant Slayer in my home game. We started about two months before Troy and his crew but are still behind their pace. I'm actually suspending my home game and moving it to play by post in a couple of weeks. The upshot is..two of the players are not interested in playing by post to continue the story (we're in the middle of book 3).However, they're open to letting other players play their characters for them. (both these players had inherited these characters anyway but, have adopted them as their own).

Sooo... if any of you is interested in joining a Giant Slayer campaign for about a year of PbP your welcome to ask to join the game. Couple things of note:
1. you're in the middle of book 3 so you must play with one of the characters in the story at least until book 4.
2. There's a chance this moves to live play with a remote feed next year, so if you tend to get invested might not be best for you to join (unless you don't mind playing by web-cam aimed at the chessex map or Dwarven forge tiles on my dinning room table).
3. I won't have room for all of you and you must own herolab
4. Lastly if I get a lot of interest from you guys I'd even surrender the GNPC to a player (that's 3 slots total)

If any of you wants more gaming in their life let me know. I have an extensive Obsidian Portal web page on this campaign to get players up-to-speed. The three open possible PC choices are:
Leetsa: Female gnome Slayer 6/ inquisitor of Abadar 2
Elynarr: male elf Arcanist 8
Thorsten: male human Skald 7/ Ranger 1 (GNPC and default healer of the group; also played as a good intention oriented drunk from a wealthy family from the Linnorm Kingdoms. In other words he's always making an ass of himself)
*edit*
One last thing, the last player of your group will be a fairly prolific writer and author Seth Saunders. He plays an optimized Dwarf (unchained)monk named Ud that, has some particular eccentricities

Lucklesshero, thank you for the invitation. It is very tempting, both because I think I would enjoy the Giantslayer AP and because you are offering the chance to pick up one of my favorite classes in the entire game, the arcanist, at 8th level. But I just do not see being able to make the time to add it on without giving up all other PbP games, and I enjoy playing with this group too much to do that.

I will also have to decline, though it sounds like a great time! I have enough games as a player & DM that I don't think I can do another well.

No prob guys.. I won't have a problem recruiting on the boards I'm sure. Just wanted to give you guys first shot. This will be a more casual posting schedule anyway..once every 2 days would be more than sufficient ..

I'd rather not join halfway through, but thanks for the offer.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I normally would jump at the chance to join, as my second character in PFS is an arcanist who I love to play, but I have several games I am committed to with the coming game day starting Aug 25th. Between that and live play I think that might be a bit too much. Can I get back to you after I see the pace of the Game Days?

Out of game I am getting my home ready to sell and my family ready to move next year. With the plan I have, once that is done I will have plenty of free time, so look out folks. ;)

I normally would jump at the chance to join, as my second character in PFS is an arcanist who I love to play, but I have several games I am committed to with the coming game day starting Aug 25th. Between that and live play I think that might be a bit too much. Can I get back to you after I see the pace of the Game Days?

Out of game I am getting my home ready to sell and my family ready to move next year. With the plan I have, once that is done I will have plenty of free time, so look out folks. ;)

There's no rush Houston, in fact I may not re-start up the game until the first part of "game-day" is over. So yeah take your time mull it over. I'm not in a rush.

Ok lets keep this short and simple..stop cornering guys..it's a long standing rule and I think you all know it but, just keep forgetting. It holds up game play. I've cut and paste both the written rule and a diagram out of the rule book (look for them in the exiles shared folder) to help you understand this fundamental rule of Pathfinder/D&D 3.5. I've also cut and paste it below.

Again: you cannot move diagonal around any hard corner..

Diagonals
When measuring distance, the first diagonal counts as 1 square, the second counts as 2 squares, the third counts as 1, the fourth as 2, and so on.

You can’t move diagonally past a corner (even by taking a 5-foot step). You can move diagonally past a creature, even an opponent.

You can also move diagonally past other impassable obstacles, such as pits.

Ok. So, this seems to be a point of table variation - another PFS GM in a different scenario I played in a couple of months ago treated display shelves in a shop as difficult terrain rather than a wall, as they did not go all the way to the ceiling. That's why I was clear that Jamir was not taking a 5-foot step, but a move action provoking a potential attack of opportunity. You're ruling differently, which isn't a problem, but I don't think it's necessarily a given.

Jamir, it truly is feast/famine with your rolls, no?

Jamir, it truly is feast/famine with your rolls, no?

Seems like it. Sigh.

I can't move through the guard's square? I thought the Acrobatics check was just to avoid an AoO while moving through.

-Posted with Wayfinder

Two different things here. Occupied vs Threatened.

You always need to make an acrobatics check if you want to pass through an enemy occupied square, regardless if you care about AoOs. If you fail the check you don't move, you loose the move action, and you provoke. If the enemy has no AoOs left, they obviously can't attack, but the rest still proves true.

Now moving through a square that is just threatened by an enemy is another matter. You can always move through it, but the acrobatics check there, should you elect to make one, just determines if you provoke. You typically move at half speed when doing any acrobatic check to move through a threatened square but if you want to move full speed there is just an increase to the DC. If you fail, you still make the move, but you provoke.

It bears note that you can move through a friendly/ally occupied square without any sort of check.

ok. Thanks for the clarification.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I am glad if it helps. :)

As for bookshelves being walls, or in the game Jamir played where a display case was merely difficult terrain, I can understand how there may be different rulings based on different factors.

Some bookshelves are solid affairs, like in this scenario, and they may very well be ceiling height with a full hard backing and those should obviously count as walls, while other types of shelves could be less heavily constructed or much shorter(barely 3 feet high even), so you could go over them, or even through them if they are only frames with no solid backing.

Just calling something shelves and expecting them to be treated the same is where the issue lies from my view.

That all makes sense. It probably doesn't help that the map doesn't fully match the description text (with the caveat that I am rereading it on my phone) - from the description, it sounds as though all of the shelves are along the walls - maybe what Jamir bumped up against aren't shelves, but then I don't know what they're supposed to be. I suspect there was a disconnect between the author and the artist.

Doesn't matter too much either way - I reversed the move, we're blocked in the doorway until something else happens. Sorry for the day's delay. Next time I will hold off posting an action if I need clarification.

Ok. So, this seems to be a point of table variation - another PFS GM in a different scenario I played in a couple of months ago treated display shelves in a shop as difficult terrain rather than a wall, as they did not go all the way to the ceiling. That's why I was clear that Jamir was not taking a 5-foot step, but a move action provoking a potential attack of opportunity. You're ruling differently, which isn't a problem, but I don't think it's necessarily a given.

This other GM has a very loose interpretation of a solid fixed object, in my view. I'm curious putting on your GM hats (not that I'm going to change my mind) how many of you would rule a bookcase/shelf as difficult terrain rather than a solid fixed object like a wall? difficult terrain is usually something you can set your feet on without making a balance check..(swamp, ice, undergrowth, ect..) in this GM's definition I suppose a table would be considered difficult terrain (ie able to pass right through it like a ghost..it just takes two movements)...

I don't think he thought anyone was going through solid objects, just clambering over/under/around them. My point was that he treated things that weren't walls as different from walls. You treat them as walls. I've got it, understood, no need for further explanation. Next time I will either ask before attempting to move over or through or next to a square that is anything other than totally empty, or assume that I can't until told otherwise.

I think it was pretty clear what Jawhar wanted to do, even though he didn't move on the map. I moved him as per his description. Orange arrow for Jawhar's movement, and white for Analia's. It isn't where you mentioned luckless, but it seems fair given Jawhar's post. If you disagree, feel free to move Analia where you want. She is just not a melee kind of girl.

This is all fine..It was unclear to me what Jawhar wanted so that's why I let you all sort it out thx...

If that critical confirms, Craggark's quip-to-melee attack ratio is going to go WAY up.

Jawhar, Torvald - with Jamir's underfoot assault, this round is a good time for melee attacks on guard 1.

Unfortunately, I don't have a melee weapon drawn...

Looks like I might need to do some healing anyways.

-Posted with Wayfinder

I don't think having a melee weapon drawn would prevent you from healing. I would Very much encourage you to draw your melee weapon so as to help with flanking and Jamir's attacks of opportunity. Just a suggestion.

remember Jawhar your gauntlets are counted as weapons and don't provoke...Don't despair finish this adventure and you'll level! +1 BAB and the ability to draw a weapon as part of a move action ...PS the crit confirms writing the entry now Torvald can go guard 2 is down.

finish this adventure and you'll level!

I look forward to it. Nothing is worse than being level 1.

I would Very much encourage you to draw your melee weapon so as to help with flanking and Jamir's attacks of opportunity. Just a suggestion.

Torvald and Jamir both flank already. I was pointing out that I can't attack (as I was asked to do).

I'd also rather not add a cover penalty to Lia's attack, so healing is probably the course of action. "Luckily" Vermund hasn't taken any damage yet, so I can exclude the two who are already injured (unless I need LoS to exclude someone, I'll look that up)

lucklesshero wrote:

finish this adventure and you'll level!

I look forward to it. Nothing is worse than being level 1.

Craggark wrote:

I would Very much encourage you to draw your melee weapon so as to help with flanking and Jamir's attacks of opportunity. Just a suggestion.

Torvald and Jamir both flank already. I was pointing out that I can't attack (as I was asked to do).

I'd also rather not add a cover penalty to Lia's attack, so healing is probably the course of action. "Luckily" Vermund hasn't taken any damage yet, so I can exclude the two who are already injured (unless I need LoS to exclude someone, I'll look that up)

Makes sense. I misinterpreted your statement as "I can't draw a melee weapon and heal in the same round." Our GM's point is valid, however. You threaten (for AoA and flanking purposes, as needed) with gauntlets.

Dim half-orc out.

I don't know why our missile combat specialist would step in front of one of our front-line fighters in cramped quarters in order to attack via melee attack.

That tactical decision doesn't make sense to me - I've just glanced at the map - and it in no way reflects what Torvald said he was going to do on his round, despite the fact that he's been delayed in posting.

I don't agree with the bot interpretation of Torvald's last action. I didn't see the map immediately after Torvald's last post, but I'm calling for a discussion about this one, please.

Also, I'm assuming that we're "running behind" because of....GenCon? I don't understand why I'm feeling rushed, but I'm listening, if there are reasons.

Torvald's stated action had him move in a D shape around the bookshelf and directly through the square that Jamir and the Thug were already occupying.

He was in the space directly next to the door, moved Left, Down, Down, Right, so that he was in the same row as Vermund, but at the other end.

I am pretty sure that he didn't remember about the thug as Jamir's token almost completely covered the thug. Regardless, it was not a legal move and not something Torvald would have attempted knowing that it would require an Acrobatics check.

The current move is certainly not ideal, but Vermund is almost certainly going to take a 5-foot step back before casting or readying his sling again, so it will likely not impact your move.

I have to admit that I am feeling a bit of Lucklesshero's frustration with the current combat, although I would personally prefer to slow down and make sure people got things right.

The enemy chose their terrain well, and we have been limited because of it. Jawhar and Lia still have not even been able to get into the room after what, four rounds of combat...

FWIW, In hindsight, I think I would have preferred if Craggark had teamed up with Jamir to take out the rat and first guard to get us all into the room as quickly as possible, although I usually agree (and did at the time) with the principle of going after the spellcaster whenever possible.

CraggrkSorry u don't agree with what I had Torvald do but my ruling stands. Torvald hasn't even weighed in on the subject and we're several turns past his move. As Jawhar mentioned it shouldn't affect your action(s) as the druid will indeed 5ft back. In the day and age of smart phones ect.. it's not that hard to keep up with things..(you do an admirable job). We're going to move on..nothing Torvald could have done that round was optimal and frankly I probably saved him a bomb for a future combat.

Jamir As far as underfoot assault goes; if you read the FAQ'd threads the controversy manly stems from the fact that two rules say opposing things and when that happens you're always suppose to defer to the rules in the Core Rule book unless there's been an official errata. But, I agree with you, the verbiage seems super clear to me ie; any movement and 5ft step clearly uses the word movement in it's description. So even though at least one Venture Lieutenant has ruled against the AoO on a 5ft step, I don't view that as official errata and I will stick to what I believe is the spirit of the rule.
The reason I ruled the withdraw works (only for 5ft in most cases mind you)..is it specifically states that it negates all attacks of opportunity that are triggered by movement from the players original starting square. So here's a rule that is designed to counter AoO's specifically but cost the character action economy. The funny part about the withdraw is: sure he can move out of the square you both occupy and not provoke, but he can't move to the next square without provoking unless you didn't have the reach (like maybe you used reduce person to become tiny only threatening your own square). So I think it's a great compromise. He can get away from you without provoking an AoO; but it cost him a full round and he only moves 5ft! I think either way the mouser swashbuckler wins..

On the pacing: please don't worry about finishing this scenario by Gen Con. My wife and kids and I have been leveling up PFS characters to play tier 3-4 in the specials, and I have a couple of other characters to play if we get into a lower tier game. I can play Jamir with them another time.

I'm cool with it all. Just wanted to have a conversation about it. Thanks for discussions!

The pacing is more for my only schedule at this point but, we'll make do with whatever happens.

Holding off posting for Jamir until we know what happens to the Shadowlodge guard from Jawhar's acid attack. If Jawhar's attack is not enough to drop the guard, I think Jamir will hold until after Lia's turn, because the crit from her ray of frost must be enough to take him down. Jamir can't get anywhere near the druid without making an impossible CMB check to overrun the guard (or a slightly less impossible Acrobatics check? but only slightly). If the guard is somehow still standing after both of those attacks, Jamir will attempt to finish him off. Otherwise, he will - happily - walk over his corpse.

Can I move past the Shadowlodge guard (through his square) now that he has surrendered?

Can I move past the Shadowlodge guard (through his square) now that he has surrendered?

Yes brush past him he lets u through..

PS normally I'd require a sense motive or something or you just declaring you attempt it without me telling you the result...however, I think as I've said we've been dragging a bit so yeah he'll let u go

Got it, thx.

I apologize - I posted without updating the map, and realized now when I did update the map that Jamir almost certainly can't make the move I thought he could make. Apparently this entire room is built as an impassable obstacle. If I am reading this correctly, I think the only way to deal with it is to back out and set the place on fire. Jamir may be able to pass through the guard's square, but where would he go? Between whatever is just behind the guard and the shelves, the best he could do is run over and give Craggark a friendly pat on the shoulder.

I am open to suggestions.

I haven't gotten the impression that the fireplace is impassable. I am assuming that your move is correct for the time being.