Exiles of Winter PFS scenerio# 2-17 [Recruitment closed] (Inactive)

Game Master lucklesshero

.. btw since Jamir is only 3ft something..it will be an acrobatics check DC: 16 (used as part of a move action; must have at least 10ft running start) to get high enough, to hit the creature with his rapier, while it's hovering at that height: (somewhere between 8-9ft off the ground)

Yeah, that's probably what Jamir will do. He could also decide that because he is out of panache and has already made some poor choices that have left him injured and out of the fighting (twice), he should take a swift action to pop his last acid flask out of the spring-loaded wrist sheath (acid on the left, protection on the right!) and toss it at the dragon instead.

I asked my family what they think.

My 13yo son thinks the rule of awesome should apply, and that Jamir should attempt the leap.

My 16yo daughter thinks he should play it smart, but says her halfling barbarian - who absolutely ruled our tables in both specials - would definitely tell him to try the most awesome attack he can.

My wife - who almost always plays clerics, and therefore has to deal with the consequences of other PCs' poor choices - thinks I am crazy even to consider the running/jumping attack.

I'm still thinking it over. But I note that I still have my reroll...

I'll put up my post within the hour.

Whatever you end up doing, I am sure it will be the right choice. Jamir may be daring, and fearless, but he also has been smacked hard with some failure recently so I could easily see him going either way.

The most important thing, just do what would make you have the most fun. We got your back no matter what.

Hold the dang phone. How on earth could Jamir have charged across an icy floor followed by a jump? Even with the cleats he moves at reduced speed, and then he has to leap straight into the air - are you saying that could STILL have qualified for a charge if I had stepped back instead of to the side? I accept that Jamir missed, no issue there, but if he missed solely because of the way I set up his run, then honestly I hope Craggark hits him with the *^%*%{}# alchemist's fire and puts him out of his misery once and for all.

Edit: my point is that Jamir could not possibly have charged for two separate reasons: cleats do not convert icy (difficult) terrain into ordinary terrain, and the jump at the end is a change of direction.

Found the references I was thinking of.

If any line from your starting space to the ending space passes through a square that blocks movement, slows movement, or contains a creature (even an ally), you can’t charge.

Cleats reduce the penalty for walking over slick surfaces by 50%. For example, walking across ice normally costs 2 squares of movement (1 square plus a 1 square penalty) for every square of movement, but with cleats it costs only 1.5 squares for every square. Cleats cause damage to any type of finished flooring. They may supplement another outfit.

I don't want to be difficult, I just want to make sure I understand the rules correctly.

The dragon is technically flat-footed when Jamir acts, isn't it? Or was the flight into position considered part of a surprise round?

Needing a 20+ to hit is going to be really hard, but if a 19 misses a flat-footed dragon, we are totally screwed!

dragon is not FF it acted 1st with a readied action; in the surprise round..though you all knew something was going to happen; you didn't know from where or when(I suppose you could have prepared readied actions of your own) ..I could have her flying above the mist all day frankly and there's little you can do about it, until u have a target there's nothing you can do unless someone has a "gust of wind scroll" they forgot to mention..she on the other hand, has blind sense and knows precisely what square each of you are in..

So I'd say all in all it's pretty fortunate for you guys she decided not to hover above the mist and just rain breathe weapon damage down on your group..If it helps I wouldn't have considered any of you flat footed either..you were very aware something was flying around or at least stretching it's wings..

And Jamir..I just assumed you could charge with cleats..good catch for next time because it's sure to come up in the next adventure..

Thanks for the clarification. Good to know where we stand at least

17+ touch AC and 20+ regular AC. Gah! A dragon at level 1!

Maybe we should try to escape through the magical door?

And Jamir..I just assumed you could charge with cleats..good catch for next time because it's sure to come up in the next adventure..

And I just didn't want to have to spend the rest of the scenario banging my head against the wall for missing something obvious!

Thanks for the clarification. Good to know where we stand at least

17+ touch AC and 20+ regular AC. Gah! A dragon at level 1!

Maybe we should try to escape through the magical door?

use fire..u guys should beat this thing..it's proud, it won't run up into the mist ..though if you're stupid, it's capable of killing one of you.. so meta as needed ( not too much) on the discussion board..you've worked together enough as a team it's assumed you would anticipate others actions...Like who didn't know Jamir would run head long in and try to stab the Dragon?*smile*; in my home game he'd be overflowing with hero points..best I can do in PFS is remind him his re-roll is still un-used..(as I believe most of your are?)

I was going to use burning hands on round one, but I knew that it wouldn't kill the dragon outright so I decided to use color spray instead because there was at least a chance that it could actually end the fight if the dragon just failed the save.(turns out it was a 50/50 chance that it failed the save so it wasn't a bad choice) Since it is a really small dragon I also figured it would have a high reflex save.

Lia will likely be using burning hands on her turn, so we will find out about that reflex save soon. I hope Lia rolls well for damage and the dragon rolls poorly on the save. She has other spells she can use too like snowball(converted to a fire spell), but she will probably use those after burning hands if she survives.

Given that Craggark missed with a 16 on the alchemist's fire - a touch attack - I would assume it has a pretty high Dex modifier

I can deal with missing with a touch AC of 16, but you are giving me my Attack, GM. Botting me with 3hrs of notice?!? I'm not happy.

We are going to have some serious discussions regarding your rampant overuse of botting, GM, lest you want this trilogy to come to an abrupt end.

I work hard during the work day here in New Zealand. I get home and dutifully check my messages. I wake up early and check my messages. You have been botting Craggark for me throughout this scenario due to some unforeseen need to speed through a PbP post game. I'm not enjoying it, full stop.

Craggark it was an AoO I assumed ur fine with it feel free to roll it ur self no hard feelings..AC:21..(if u hit for description purposes) I will slow it down..thought u enjoyed the tempo..

oh We'll need a reflex save from you too Craggark

AC: 21 touch AC: 17 (this creature has advanced template)

I am not fine wth you botting me with 3.5hrs of notice. NOT OK. I'll give you a Reflex save when you give me my AoA.

NOT ENJOYING YOUR PACING. Are we clear?

lastly remember ur mission is over..mechanically u basically went in those room for a boon..if the combat is too tough move out of the room bar the door..it's an optional encounter..so I'm not inclined to take it too seriously even though it's really cool u get to fight a dragon at first level...ie..if u die it's not the GM's fault on this one guys..there was even a big sign saying "do not enter!"

But, your adventures have fun and kill a dragon; Craggark I loathe GM's taking ownership of characters so I'll move it back to a 24hr policy if you like. But that means I'll probably start speeding up other parts of the game (like always rolling initiative and perception checks for you guys like I've seen most of the GM's do in my game day sessions). Also if we're, going to be strict about this, I'll most likely require all players to resolve their actions before the next can act (in combat)...that way I don't have to retcon..stuff like, "well since Jawhar did action A instead of action B ,I'd like to do Action C instead of D"

My end goal is just to keep combat flowing and have Everyone feel like they're contributing..if taking an AoO takes away from the experience from you, then I'm not doing my job as a GM..but, it's also my job to keep the game flowing so I'll look to other ways of keeping things moving.

Alright ? We good?
As far as touch AC of 17 goes blame the writer of adventure not me! LOL

I am fine with you rolling initiatives and even saves for me, as that is how most of the PbP GMs have been doing it that I play with. Attack rolls and perception rolls they leave to the players with spoilers listed with DCs(like you did just recently for the Arcane Knowledge rolls on the dragon).

I also see a lot of block initiatives, with several characters listed by the GM in bold being allowed to post, as opposed to one specific character needing to act before another. It runs smoothly and keeps a nice pace, without holding anyone too tightly.
Example:
Round 2
Crios
Kivuli 39 dmg - down
Clockwork, Black 76 dmg - down
Clockwork, Grey 48 dmg
Ranalus
Kuriq
Reavis
Anduris

Round 3
Crios
Kivuli

I like block initiative as long as there's a social contract a player can't change what they did because another player did x...and messed up their move. that's what stalls games out. If I allow 3 players to act and the 3rd player(in initiative) post first something like I shoot the orc on the left but the 1st player in initiative says I engage the orc on the left with my sword.. then I don't want the third player coming back and saying, "well since player 2 is now in melee and I don't have precise shot, I'll shoot at the orc on the right instead."

I think the impetus is on the characters to have contingency plans should multiple options be a genuine option come their actual initiative..ie the afore mentioned spoiler. and if it's truely something un-foreseen, then trust that the GM will do the next logical thing in steed of your character . Like 3rd player in initiative says I move up to creature and hit with my mace..but later that day 2nd player in initiative says I move to hit the creature with my axe (blocking the path of the third initiative player that posted hours earlier) then that third initiative player has got to be Ok with whatever alternative th GM comes up with..(like moving as close as he can but not hitting or putting away his mace and getting out his sling) otherwise if the players are not ok with the GM stepping in then we could be facing day waits or longer while actions are getting sorted...and simply put that's not the game I want to play.

I personally greatly prefer when the GM rolls initiative. Why hold up the start of an encounter while waiting for every individual player to chime in.

Saving throws as well seem fine to be handled by the GM. IMO there is a reason why these things are listed in our stat lines, and that is to speed things up and put information right up front where the GM can access them without needing to reference sheets or hero lab.

The GM also has a job (I assume) and isn't carrying his reference material around with him all of the time. I am sure the botting is more about trying to get posts done within his schedule and not any desire to step on toes.

Even though I love a game with a fast pace, I also know that our schedules don't all line up (24 posts to read in this thread over the 9 hours since I logged off last night).

I honestly don't fully understand the block initiatives yet. I appreciate not having to wait on someone who might be in a time zone 6 hours behind me just because they rolled 1 higher on initiative.

On the other hand, I am still not clear on if actions are following regular initiative rules or if the actions are happening in the order they are posted.

If actions happen in the order they are posted, it would both speed things up and eliminate any confusion over "hey, you just moved in front of my shot!", and the only expense is the strict adherence to the initiative order.

As I've said before, I'd be happy with block initiative and with GM rolling initiative and saves.

I think Lia has more experience with this than I do, but on the question of the order of resolving actions, I believe they get resolved within each block in the order of posting, as Jawhar suggests, rather than in strict initiative order. There is no incentive for players to ask to retcon because if someone in their block posts ahead of them, they can adjust their own post accordingly. For example, check out this post and GM HMM's response in the post immediately following it. I will add that from what I have seen, it works best if the GM posts the entire initiative order every time, and bolds the names of those who can act in a particular block, as in Lia's example.

I guess it only gets tricky when you actually want to delay after someone else in your block.

Should you post your action in a spoiler or actually delay your posting until after they have acted?

Jawhar - I would think either would work, although you might want to post specifically that you are waiting for X to post first.

On botting:

I just reread HMM's BOT BUDDY'S GUIDE TO PLAY-BY-POST CHARACTER BOTTING to refresh my understand of how it should work. It is document 4 in her PbP GM Kit folder.

Like I said in my last post, I'd be happy to have the GM roll initiative, passive perception checks, and saving throws.

As for actions, I think my tolerance is different from Craggark's. If Jamir is in melee and his opponent provokes an attack of opportunity, Jamir is going to take it, and he is going to take it with his rapier if that is what is in his hand. Go ahead and run the AoO without waiting for me to post. His attack code, before any situational modifiers, is:

Rapier: 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (2) + 7 = 91d4 ⇒ 3

If there is a group decision to be made (left or right? Go into the next room or stay here?), feel free to assume I tag along with the group in the standard marching order once 2-3 other PCs have agreed on what to do.

Generally, I would prefer not to be botted in a way that uses consumables or ammunition, or requires any other decision-making, unless I am away from the forum for a day or more, or by prearrangement.

One exception: unless I say otherwise, Jamir will always use his class abilities when he can, burning panache when it is available. If he has panache and his opponent attacks him and misses, Jamir will use his Underfoot Assault as an immediate action. If the opponent hits but it's a close thing (if it would be a miss if Jamir's AC had been 3 higher), Jamir will use his Dodging Panache ability to avoid the blow, regardless of the amount of damage done by the hit. Neither ability requires a roll, so knowing that Jamir will use the abilities whenever possible should speed up the game. I would prefer, however, that you leave the flavor of Jamir's panache actions for me to write up when I next post.

I'm sure my thinking on this will evolve over time, but this is how I am looking at it this morning.

Edit: yeah, that looks like Jamir's usual attack.

Further edit: I do not mean for anything above to suggest that Craggark is wrong for wanting to roll his own AoO, or for Lucklesshero to have botted that roll - just that it's probably a good idea to lay out these things up front.

All this input is greatly appreciated people, and going forward we will adopt some sort of block initiative method. Regarding AoO's, I don't believe Craggark's request is unreasonable neither do I believe that' I'm a total goat for wanting
to make one for the players sometimes. A case by case.person by person system seems fine with me. After this adventure we'll be sure to review and revamp our social contract. To make sure everyone is getting the most out of our game. I don't want to loose one of my great roll-players!

Turned my thumbnail sideways on the map to indicate "prone"

Torvald, for a moment I thought you meant you broke a nail pushing too hard on a touchscreen.

As an aside, is there any reason we would have ever taken our cleats off?

We were wearing snowshoes outside of Whitethrone. I don't recall ever putting cleats on while we were walking around Whitethrone. The tavern owner certainly would have complained if we were ripping up his floors with our cleats

Also, I think ice rules need to be clarified, as there seems to be some misunderstanding. Ice is not categorized as "difficult terrain" or "slowing movement". The rule is "A creature traversing slick ice at more than half speed is required to make a DC 15 Acrobatic check at the start of the movement". If you don't move more than half-speed, no crobatics check is needed. Cleats increase that to 75% speed.

[url]http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/traps-hazards-and-special-terrains/sp ecial-terrains/ice-slippery-surface/[/url]

Torvald Stonecask wrote:

Turned my thumbnail sideways on the map to indicate "prone"

Torvald, for a moment I thought you meant you broke a nail pushing too hard on a touchscreen.

Ditto.

I apologise for the temper tantrum last night (or earlier today, for everyone else). I had been anticipating replying to the growing posts once I got home from work, but then, to find that my attack action had been completed for me made me quite cross.

We don't have a policy for botting. I'd like to see one agreed upon by our group prior to continuing onto further scenarios. I think there are certain things (i.e. Initiative, Perception checks) that I'm ok with the GM rolling for me, but I have a hard time with attacks or other rolls where my character might die (like Reflex saves) being taken out of my hands.

Of course, if there's an agreed-upon time frame expectancy, I would agree to GM botting, but 3.5hrs ain't that time frame expectancy.

I'm cool with block initiative.

Friday, 02:43 pm

"Let me put my cleats on also." Lia says as she begins to do just that. Everyone that has cleats puts them on.

Just stand back up Torvald. You had the darn cleats on.

I don't disagree with you Lia, it is just that my FtF GMs are VERY literal, so I've gotten into the habit of spelling things out.

We don't have a policy for botting. I'd like to see one agreed upon by our group prior to continuing onto further scenarios.

No problem bud well get this all sorted out..

Yeah I haven't even gotten in to the cleats issue. I'm OK with the fact if u had um saw an icy floor u probably had um on..If u don't have um u don't have um..lets draw out our social gaming contract going forward after this one..
There are two things that make me reluctant to give up on this group and just play with others.

1. You are all fantastic roll-players to a person! Story is more important than "hitting the win button" or leveling to all of u

2. We're all adults and we recognize everybody else is an adult. ie..we have our good days and bad (GM has too many of the latter) and we're tolerant each other knowing work relationships and life just happen and affect everything including this silly little game we love..

Being able to overlook someone's short comings and moving forward and still liking the best of them is at least the sign of maturity and often leads to true friendships..from what I've seen so far that's the direction we're heading..

GM's point of does not necessarily reflect the view of his players, Paizo inc, or the employees of Paizo inc..

Jawhar, if Jamir's last attack hit - and I think it did - it was only because you got into position for a flank. Thanks!

Quick question to my learned players (not that it will mater in this battle cause I believe you'll kill the Dragon this round) If your class/monstrous race eventually gets spell casting ability..can you use a wand even though you haven't obtained spell casting level/HD yet..
ie. A first lv. Ranger using a wand of cure lt without the use of "use magic device? is this legal?

Yes. The rulebook specifically uses the example of a third level paladin being able to use wands of cure.

-Posted with Wayfinder

There's a big mathematics error that we need to address.

The first critical hit on Torvald did 11hp of damage. Torvald has 10hp. He was unconscious then.

He did not heal himself with a wand. He was unconscious.

I think the entire dragon attack needs to be retconned as it would unlikely continue to attack an unconscious foe with three others threatening it.

I'm sorry - I don't mean to be difficult, but we need to adhere to the Pathfinder Society rules.

Craggark did you miss that Torvald healed himself? And I have him at 12hp not 10hp...but good to know PFS doesn't condone attack un-conscious players...I feel the same at least with intelligent creatures they'd take care of the threats around them first.

yep 12hp confirmed..he took a mutagen before he entered battle giving him 2 more hp the attack stands. Jawhar's turn then we move on to top of initiative order Jamir, Analia, Craggark...

Quick question to my learned players. If your class/monstrous race eventually gets spell casting ability..can you use a wand even though you haven't obtained spell casting level/HD yet..

ie. A first lv. Ranger using a wand of cure lt without the use of "use magic device? is this legal?

Yes and no. Yes if your class gets spell casting ability at some point and the spell on the wand is in their class spell list, as in the example of the paladin being able to use a CLW wand even at first level when they have not yet gained spell casting.

No for racial spell like abilities.

Relevant FAQ entry

Ok so a dragon which has access to both cleric and wizard/sorcerer spells, could use a wand of cure lt. at any level correct?

Ok so a dragon which has access to both cleric and wizard/sorcerer spells, could use a wand of cure lt. at any level correct?

Can it hold one?

Edit - wait, you're saying a wyrmling (0-5 years old) has picked up a level of cleric? Because if not, and unless it has some other very strange template - which I would not put past the author - I don't think dragons ever get cleric spells, do they?

Red dragons in 3.5 got access to some IIRC, couldn't tell you about PFS. Do draconic spells count as racial SLAs? Because if so it seems like Lia's link settles that.

it's a moot point guys but yeah I was wondering cause some Dragons in 3.5 anyway got access to cleric spells when they reached appropriate HD don't know if Pathfinder Dragons do or not just asking if someone knew. If it comes to that point I'll look up if white Dragons eventually get access to Cleric (*edit* the answer to this is NO. I just looked it up) spells. But before it can do that. it will have to go through 3 rounds of attacks by the party +4 AoO when it tries to grab the wand and it's only at 1hp...I'm think it's pretty safe to say this Dragon won't make it that far...just asking for future reference and as a conversation piece but...always happy to keep ya worried!

If the creature has actual class levels, and we are not talking SLAs, then it certainly can use the wand. Dragons are different from many creatures in that they actually have spells *and* SLAs when they get older.

So, for a dragon that has cleric *spells* from either actual class levels or some other similar background reason they could in fact use the wand.

Standard dragons don't get cleric spells but pull from the sorcerer list. It is a very unusual thing, but not unheard of, for a dragon to have an alternate list, and it is usually a unique creature.

Here is the specific rule.
"Spell Trigger: Spell trigger activation is similar to spell completion, but it's even simpler. No gestures or spell finishing is needed, just a *special knowledge of spellcasting* that an appropriate character would know, and a single word that must be spoken. Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin."

So there we go safe to assume the little devil was bluffing...unless she has ranks in UMD???? muhahaha!

So the adventure is for all purposes over. I'll spend the next couple of days posting wrap up and priming you for the next adventure. Chronicle sheets will be forthcoming b4 Thursday. You will as always have a chance to shop and re-equip through Uliyara's agents while you remain hiding at one of her mother's properties in Whitethrone. Good job everyone!

Hey, we killed a dragon!

Not just a dragon, but a dragon the size of a CAT! Garfield almost took our lunch money.

But seriously, we did kill a dragon! I never thought that would happen at level 1 in a PFS scenario.

An ADVANCED dragon the size of a cat!