How do you know it was a scout, Master Grim? Did it tell you that? How did you come across this creature?
how do i know? because it was in a position hidden overlooking the camp exactly where i would do it in order to do that.
So Hajar begins, eyes narrowing. You assume that the gnoll, because of his race is deserving of death and is up to mischief so you assault the gnoll for no reason except that he was watching the camp. Is this what I am to believe happened? Hajar's eyes begin to smolder. Your own kind is typically evil and devious, am I to assume that YOU deserve death? Are we to assume that YOU do not walk in the light? The air around Hajar begins to heat up noticeably Your penchant for striking first without pause for thought is reckless and outside of the realms of goodly folk! With that Hajar storms away...
Master Hajar, I respect your code but I must insist on the gnoll’s execution upon completion of the interrogation. It is part of my code in a manner of speaking. I have my reasons for this and none of them are related to our past discussions about the pugwami. Moreover, I respect Grims assesment of the situation as he was there and you were not. If he says the gnoll was spying, then the gnoll was spying.
The gnoll did nothing wrong. It did not attack anyone, it was watching. I will not allow murder. We will speak with this gnoll before we pass judgement.
Hajar i know someone who is acting as a spy,scout when i see one. As for my kind, i don't really care about them and to answer your question, i don't think i walk in the light like you do, but i am not necessarily evil either. As for the gnoll i am just pointing out that letting go after interrogation won't serve our purpose. We can also keep him prisoner until we deal with his tribe.
Well it seems we are at an impasse as I will not let the gnoll live. Unlike you, I do not need evidence or a trial for every single enemy I encounter. Gnolls are the enemy of me and my kin. They will die by my hand.
Hajar i know someone who is acting as a spy,scout when i see one. As for my kind, i don't really care about them and to answer your question, i don't think i walk in the light like you do, but i am not necessarily evil either. As for the gnoll i am just pointing out that letting go after interrogation won't serve our purpose. We can also keep him prisoner until we deal with his tribe.
Master Grim, if this gnoll is an enemy to us and our cause then your words are wise. What if it was simply curious as to our purpose here? What if it is simple minded and did not even pause to consider its actions? We must know more before we choose death for this one. If it is our enemy or a friend to our enemy, I see no recourse but to imprison it here. If it can be redeemed by Sarenrae's light then so be it, if not.... Hajar trails off
Well it seems we are at an impasse as I will not let the gnoll live. Unlike you, I do not need evidence or a trial for every single enemy I encounter. Gnolls are the enemy of me and my kin. They will die by my hand.
I did not require a trial to slay the creatures in the temple. They were unrepentant defilers, thus they gave up their option for life. This gnoll Hajar gestures to the unconcious? gnoll Was attacked first by one of our own, which while it upsets me does not mean was the incorrect course of action. This gnoll has done nothing to warrant death other than exist in your eyes, this is not the path of goodness. We should speak to this gnoll and learn the truth as best we can.
Wake it up and ask your questions.
Gunk should I do his replies in spoilers so you can relate what you want back to the party? Or are you going to translate word for word?
Master Hajar. You play fast and loose with your virtually indiscriminate methodology for deciding who lives and who dies. But for the moment I will play it your way.
You say the pugwami deserved to die because they were unrepentant defilers of your Gods house of worship. But the gnoll may have been just simple minded so its ok and should live? But what if those same pugwami were simple minded too? They were just looking for a place to live and this building suited their purposes. From that perspective, there were merely guilty of poor hygiene and taking up residence in YOUR god's house. To them, it is just a good strong building with some unfamiliar books and statues. Items of religious significance to you but to them they are just paper and stone of no import. Are they still worthy of death now? You asked them to repent for living here. Hell if someone told me to repent for living in my own home I'd tell em to go to the deepest pit in all of the hells. I'm darned sure that doesn't make me evil.
What if they took up residence in Desna's house and pooped there? Or Erastil? What about Gorum? These are all places of worship and to those people they are defilers. What if they took up residence there and pooped wherever they liked in those places? Are they still worthy of death by your sword? Or is that ok because it isn't YOUR god?
Master Hajar. You play fast and loose with your virtually indiscriminate methodology for deciding who lives and who dies. But for the moment I will play it your way.
You say the pugwami deserved to die because they were unrepentant defilers of your Gods house of worship. But the gnoll may have been just simple minded so its ok and should live? But what if those same pugwami were simple minded too? They were just looking for a place to live and this building suited their purposes. From that perspective, there were merely guilty of poor hygiene and taking up residence in YOUR god's house. To them, it is just a good strong building with some unfamiliar books and statues. Items of religious significance to you but to them they are just paper and stone of no import. Are they still worthy of death now?
What if they took up residence in Desna's house and pooped there? Or Erastil? What about Gorum? These are all places of worship and to those people they are defilers. What if they took up residence there and pooped wherever they liked in those places? Are they still worthy of death by your sword? Or is that ok because it isn't YOUR god?
Your words have merit. They give me cause to think. Hajar pauses a moment. I believe that my reasons to destroy the pugwampi in the monastery comes from their blatant disregard for the sanctity of a holy place. It could have been any holy place, but I must admit that because it was the Dawnflower's temple my anger was roused more furiously.
Hajar pauses again as if searching for thoughtsI believe that each life is sacred. Most beings are capable of remorse and redemption for their deeds and should be judged based on their actions, not the actions of their race. My reluctance to kill should not be viewed as a weakness of character. Do I believe every gnoll we encounter can be saved? No. Do I believe that they should be given the opportunity? Yes, my god demands it.
an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement. Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals
with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a supervillain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character’s evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity. Having these qualities might not even cause the character to detect as evil when subjected to detect evil, as creatures possessing 4 or fewer Hit Dice do not register to the spell. My highlight in bold.
When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being.
Now master Hajar you are beginning to see what a truly messy world we live in. There are a few black and white situations for sure but most of them are an ugly shade of gray. It is impossible to always do the right thing. This gnoll may very well be guilty of nothing more than curiosity. However, it appears to have been caught spying on us. We may well be making the wrong decision to execute him. But of he WAS spying on us and he escapes to tell his superiors all our weaknesses and they attack and kill us, your mission for the Dawnflower is over. So too is any future goods you may have done. Perhaps this gnolls later on attack a village. Or a town of good people. This is a risk were cannot afford to take. Yes life is sacred but we must also protect the innocent. This may be an act of questionable morality, but the intention of the act is undeniably good as the gnolls in this area are known to attack towns, villages, and caravans for sport and for profit. They are the single biggest threat to the nation of Katapesh. They are also among the regions most active slavers. Is this the kind of creature you wish to protect and set free?
Now master Hajar you are beginning to see what a truly messy world we live in. There are a few black and white situations for sure but most of them are an ugly shade of gray. It is impossible to always do the right thing. This gnoll may very well be guilty of nothing more than curiosity. However, it appears to have been caught spying on us. We may well be making the wrong decision to execute him. But of he WAS spying on us and he escapes to tell his superiors all our weaknesses and they attack and kill us, your mission for the Dawnflower is over. So too is any future goods you may have done. Perhaps this gnolls later on attack a village. Or a town of good people. This is a risk were cannot afford to take.
This discussion has been enlightening. However, we both make assumptions about the gnoll. Let us rouse him and find the truth.
Hajar will wait till Gunk is ready and the Gnoll is bound and then use his Lay on Hands ability to heal the Gnoll into being awake.
Questions
1) Name
2) Purpose in watching the monastery
3) Information on Kelmarane
4) Tribe
The gnoll rouses with a start.
Gunk asks the questions.
Hajar watches intently as the alchemist and gnoll converse. He appears to be deep in thought.
You can sense motive on Gunk if you like when he tells you what was said.
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Nemaides had been oddly quiet for the last hour, but he let out a crow and flew up onto a nearby bench. He fluffed up his feathers as if we was going to scold, but a sharp look from Raj deflated him a bit before he started. Hajar, your sentiments are noble, but you forget that we are at war now. Regardless of what the gnoll's original intentions might have been, it is loyal to its kind and if it can it will warn the gnolls of Kelmarane that a caravan armed to the beak is headed straight for them. This will almost certainly prompt a preemptive strike against us. If that happens, there is a very good chance that some of the good people we've traveled with will die as a direct result of us losing the initiative in this conflict! How's that going to weigh on your conscience? He had begun calmly, but he was speaking passionately by the end. He had paused for a moment, and looked like he would have continued, but Raj spoke first from across the room: Hajar, under different circumstances we might be able to let it go, but for the present time it is an escape prone enemy combatant, and we must treat it accordingly. Unless you have a better way to remove the Gnoll from the picture, we're stuck. It is no sin to take a wicked life to preserve a more virtuous companion.
Arkhh! Gnoll's up.
alignment snippet:
The Pathfinder RPG assumes good and evil are definitive things. Evidence for this outlook can be found in the indicated good or evil monster subtypes, spells that detect good and evil, and spells that have the good or evil descriptor. Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is
an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement. Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals
with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a supervillain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character’s evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity. Having these qualities might not even cause the character to detect as evil when subjected to detect evil, as creatures possessing 4 or fewer Hit Dice do not register to the spell. My highlight in bold.
more on alignment:
Lawful Good
When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being.
Thanks Hajar, you just proved my point. We in the country of Katapesh are at constant war with the gnolls. A gnoll spying on the caravan is an act of war. Our own ally says that he was spying on the caravan and that is sufficient evidence. Thus, according to your own evidence, I am not evil. As a matter of fact, I may need to be bumped from Neutral Good to Lawful Good it seems.
Hajar is uncomfortable with the idea of speaking with the familiar so he directs all of his statements to Raj.
Arcanist Raj, Perhaps there is another way? What if the gnoll does not want to return to Kelmarane, what if it seeks redemption? What if it were lurking here hoping someone would take pity on it and allow it a home? We do not know the answers and so we must not assume. I will not assume. If the time comes, I will make the choices that I must but now is not that time.
Hajar has a thought that strikes him as he turns back to Raj
You mentioned the gnoll going back to Kelmarane. Do you think it would really do this if released?
Hajar seems a bit more animated as he calls out
Master Grim, Brother Akim a word please
Hajar will speak to Grim and Akim off to the side.
Thanks...alignment snippet:
The Pathfinder RPG assumes good and evil are definitive things. Evidence for this outlook can be found in the indicated good or evil monster subtypes, spells that detect good and evil, and spells that have the good or evil descriptor. Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil, though using spells to create undead is
an even more grievous act of evil that requires atonement. Creatures with an evil subtype (generally outsiders) are creatures that are fundamentally evil: devils, daemons, and demons, for instance. Their redemption is rare, if it is even possible. They are evil to their very core, and commit evil acts perpetually and persistently. Mortals
with an evil alignment, however, are different from these beings. In fact, having an evil alignment alone does not make one a supervillain or even require one to be thwarted or killed. The extent of a character’s evil alignment might be a lesser evil, like selfishness, greed, or extreme vanity. Having these qualities might not even cause the character to detect as evil when subjected to detect evil, as creatures possessing 4 or fewer Hit Dice do not register to the spell. My highlight in bold.
more on alignment:
Lawful Good
When will a lawful good character take a life? A lawful good being kills whenever necessary to promote the greater good, or to protect himself, his companions, or anyone whom he's vowed to defend. In times of war, he strikes down the enemies of his nation. He does not interfere with a legal execution, so long as the punishment fits the crime. Otherwise, a lawful good character avoids killing whenever possible. He does not kill a person who is merely suspected of a crime, nor does this character necessarily kill someone he perceives to be a threat unless he has tangible evidence or certain knowledge of evildoing. He never kills for treasure or personal gain. He never knowingly kills an innocent being.
If Katapesh is at war with the gnolls...then why are they allowed to sell slaves in Katapesh? I believe you are incorrect. Some gnoll tribes are at some sort of war with Katapesh.
I'm just reading from the Inner Sea Guide. It says the gnolls are the biggest single threat to the nation of Katapesh. Interpret that as you will.
It also states that gnolls trade slaves within the city markets of Katapesh. The player's guide and the Inner Sea Guide both state that the local trade rules are quite lax and/or flexible. It is a trading nation so to speak that trades slaves and drugs among other things. Basically, its about the money.
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Of course it'll go to Kelmarane; what would you do if you found a well armed band of gnolls headed straight for a currently human settlement, regardless of your standing there? You'd make a beeline for the settlement to warn them. Loyalty to ones own race can be very strong.
Raj went back to reading. A dragon? Maybe a pseudo-dragon, but dragons don't serve as familiars.
Nemaides spluttered for a bit at that, and then replied indignantly A pseudo-dragon?! A grumpy old winged kitty with scales?! Don't you remember the transmutation professor's pseudo-dragon?!
[b] Why yes, as I recall, she thought you would make a tasty snack, but I think that was mostly because you dipped her tail in an inkwell.
It was an accident! [/b]
Raj raised his eyebrows, and Nemaides relented. Well okay, maybe I was a little curious to see how she'd look in black like me, but still, trying to eat me alive was way overreacting.
Raj turned a page and sighed. I'll see what I can do.
From Dark Markets splatbook pdf
Despite their ferocity, Katapeshi gnolls posses their
own unique culture and occasionally enter cities
peacefully. Gnoll slavers appear in Okeno and Katapesh
with slaves for sale, and generally behave themselves
long enough to purchase weapons, supplies, poison, and
drugs. Occasionally, a gnoll may lose control in a city and
attack a tempting target—someone who appears weak,
alone, lost, or overly aggressive—but for the most part
gnolls are accepted as buyers and traders like any others
in these two cities.
I interpreted that to mean that although gnolls arent trusted and probably unfriendly they aren't automatically hostile. I used diplomacy verbiage.
No just an option.
"We will talk with it first. Then we will decide its fate", says Hamzah.
***
"Ask it where it's tribe is, Gunk. We need to know if it is a forward scout or if it is merely curious at our presence. We will not be murdering every creature we find when we are the visitors to its home."
Gunk looks directly at Hajar when he speaks Well, it appears as if Grim's assessment was correct. This one's name is Lak and he was indeed spying on the caravan to bring the information back to his tribe. Apparently this one is an outcast and he wanted to use this information as a way back in to the Kuldis tribe.
This next bit belongs in an ooc but it's just too long. This gnoll debate is over for me. I will just point out some of the many many many phrases from the players guide that make it abundantly clear that gnolls are the enemy ... probably enemy #1. I cannot believe this is even an issue in this campaign. Hajar, the section on Pally's is particularly poignant and germane to this discussion. I think these make it pretty darn clear that gnolls are a serious threat to security. From the description of Katapesh and its social structure and politics. Campaign traits. Player character choices. You name it. Nearly every single page of the PG says that gnolls are the enemy. Lol I can't believe that this is even a debate. Also read the locations of the gnoll problems. They pretty much cover every single region of Katapesh from the East, Central Veld, West, Northern Mountains. The only region NOT mentioned is the south. I saved the best two quotes for last.
"Gnolls, rocs, and beasts of legend from the Brazen Peaks prey upon the unwitting residents of the central veldt"
"Farther east, the rural communities and frontier villages endlessly want for skilled hunters, soldiers, and protectors to fend off the hordes of gnolls and even deadlier beasts."
"Perhaps most famous are Iomedae’s paladins, who in recent years turned back the gnoll siege of Solku at the Battle of Red Hail, and remain heroes throughout the realm."
"Predators, gnolls, and worse haunt the Uwaga Highlands, and you’ve become something of an expert at evading them."
"If the village can be reclaimed and rebuilt, the trade resulting would strengthen Katapesh’s western and northern reaches, a region long plagued by gnolls, monsters, and worse."
"Flatter foothills and mountain passes offer passage to the northern country, but most travelers prefer to reach Osirion by ship. Gnolls live in those mountains, and they know the passes and easy crossings as well as anyone. Unprepared souls who attempt to traverse the mountains generally wind up on a ship anyway: in the belly of a slave galley on its way to the Fleshfairs."
"Sarenrae supports an especially active knighthood in the region, though her warriors are more altruistic, seeking to aid those who settle in dangerous lands and keeping the roads safe from ravening beasts. Of special note are the crusaders of Solku’s Dawn Vigil, who serve their goddess in fighting back bands of gnolls and other deadly creatures on Katapesh’s western frontiers." So there is a band of Paladin's of Sarenrae whose entire existence is to protect settlers and cities from gnoll attacks. Surely Hajar would have heard of this?
"Gnolls are the most common monsters in Katapesh,and arguably the most dangerous. Gnolls consider Katapesh their homeland, and seem intent on killing or enslaving all interlopers who dare make their homes there. Gnolls are feared and reviled throughout the land, but the Pactmasters’ open trade policy means that gnolls may freely enter the city of Katapesh, so long as they come to barter and behave themselves." So it seems that we pretty much ARE at war; though the enemy seems to be fairly disorganized.
Tactically if you don't want to kill it right now we should at least keep it prisoner until we have dealt with his tribe. Also can you ask him how many warriors is the tribe strong?
Hamzah quietly waits for the interrogation to be completed.
Gunk looks at the rest of the group and says this one wants to shift his allegiance again. He wishes to help us in the fight against his own kind now. This in exchange for his own life. He says that his tribe does not yet know about us but they are strong and they live in a place called Battle Market. If memory serves me correctly, Battle Market is Kelmarane. The town that was over run by gnolls.
Gunk looks directly at Hajar when he says the following. This creature cannot be trusted. His repentance will last as long enough to give him a chance at escape. Once he does, he will return to his own kind to grovel for their redemption and then continue to steal, rape, murder, and enslave the good people of this nation. It is your sworn duty to protect those people. We are at war with the gnolls. If you won't do your duty, then I will.
In a quiet voice Hajar says This gnoll wishes to leave his kind and walk in the light. And yet you persist in your foolish notion to slay him for....nothing, for existing, for being a gnoll. You believe that he cannot be trusted, but do you know? Can you peer into his soul and see the future of this creature? My duty is to the Dawnflower, and every creature I turn to the path of light delights Her. This gnoll has repented and thrown himself upon our mercy. I will not allow murder.
Hamzah sighs and says to Gunk, "We will offer redemption when the village is ours and we have a church with the means to provide redemption. We are seven in the middle of the desert facing an army of gnolls. We have not the worshippers to watch this gnoll. None of those that follow the Dawnflower can speak with it. If one wishes to offer redemption to gnolls, one should at least learn to speak its tongue. One should bring manacles and guards. One should not expect to offer redemption ill-prepared to do so. Now finish this talk. If Lak has nothing else of value to say, then do as you would with any gnoll scout." Hamzah turns away and walks to the monastery.
Hajar, you are both foolish and reckless. You would play fast and loose with our lives and those to whom you are sworn to protect. I've had enough of this. Brother Hamzah, this evening I wish you to teach me the ways of Sarenrae. I wish to convert. Perhaps Sarenrae will find me worthy; perhaps not. Hajar, you would be better suited to slaying this creature in a humane way than I but you obviously will not. I will bathe him him in the light of The Dawnflower's fire!
Hajar places a hand on Hamzah's arm.
Brother, I cannot allow murder. Better to let this one go and report than have his murder on my conscience.
Hajar draws Hamzah and Gunk into a conference where they will not be overheard by the gnoll.
Hamzah turns around, "Do not speak blasphemies about the Dawnflower."
Hamzah walks backs, "Enough of this."
"Hajar, you cannot force these folk to offer gnolls redemption. Until you learn to speak the gnoll tongue and you prepare a prison for those you desire to redeem, you will not force your will upon your companions. That is my decision."
"Let us search the rest of this monastery. If there is a suitable place to hold prisoners, then we will have a stronger argument for redemption. If the Dawnflower wishes these gnolls redeemed, she will provide us with a prison and she will teach you the gnoll tongue while you sleep."