| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Kelorav. Golarion’s newest metropolis, it originally began as a penal colony and alternative port to Absalom. It has since transformed into a full out city of over forty thousand people, most from Absalom seeking a better fortune. Built by ramming dozens of siege towers and magical fortresses into the remnants of an ancient Azlanti settlement, Kelorav has grown by leaps and bounds. Unfortunately, those leaps are usually into the second floor window and the bounds are running away from guards. It’s citizenry is comprised of entrepreneurs seeking to get rich in the boom town and criminals seeking to prey on those entrepreneurs.
Hastily built docks, overflowing prisons, still active magical dungeons, and very few rules means Kelorav is constantly blurring the line between city and dungeon. It’s a place of danger where the smart can get rich and the violent steals the smart’s riches. Nefarious pirates and smugglers, wishing to avoid Absalom’s practiced scrutiny, dock with no questions asked. Failed and corrupt guardsmen are sent to Kelorav as punishment, with most assuaging the sting by taking any and all bribes.
Perhaps the most dangerous secret lies beneath the city itself. The Azlanti ruins, which most believed to be a vacation town or a port for overflow, was actually a secret military base where the Azlant conducted hundreds of strange experiments to combat their Aboleth masters. With so much activity on the surface, something is bound to give and it does. One night, just a few months ago, a ball of blue light shone in the center of town.
It began to expand and in just a few hours had enveloped all of Kelorav. At first, everything seemed normal. That just two short days later. Rumors began to fly around, of ordinary people bending steel or outrunning horses. These tales grew in both detail and impressiveness. From spitting fire to summoning spiders, people with no magical talent began to perform miracles. People being people, it wasn’t long before they began to prey on the innocent. Those who used their powers to take what they wished and kill without mercy, they became known as the Corruptions.
However, there is always balance. Others with powers awoke with mysterious brands of golden flame and became focused on Kelorav’s protection. They were known as the Branded, heroes without peer, and forced into impossible danger.
The party consists of four to five Branded, people granted extraordinary powers. The rules for character creation are pretty different than usual and should be read through carefully before making a character. In case it wasn’t obvious, this is not a Society sanctioned game.
Character Creation
Most of the character templates presented below are monsters or empowered monsters. For these templates, your appearance, size, and alignment do not change. Simply gain access to the creature’s stats, senses, natural abilities, etc. How these effects appear in game is entirely up to you. A dragon might breath fire and have massive wings, but you could simply fly without physical attachments and blast flame from your hands. For any truly strange abilities, be sure to state how they appear in game in your character description.
Character Creation Rules
Ability Scores- Is 25 point buy, if not playing a monster template character. If using a monster template character, simply use their ability scores, but apply the ability score increases normally given to a level 10 character.
Hit Points- Is max at first level and half after that. If your monster template has class levels, apply half that classes’ HD to their for every level, obviously including any constitution bonuses. If the constitution bonus of a monster template increases, they gain additional hp, just like a normal character. If your normal class side of the gestalt has a higher hp than the monster side, than use the class side.
Gold- Every character starts with 20,000 gp in equipment. Their job takes care of rent and food. Please only select things that you would feasibly carry around with you. A guardsmen or noble would never have the gear of a dungeon delving adventurer.
Traits- Choose two, I don’t care which ones.
Allowed Material- Any official Paizo is fine, but feel free to ask for third party. Absolutely no Psionics.
Alignment- When it comes to alignment, consider this to be Eberron. There are definite shades of grey. A lawful good character could kill a child if he considered it be for the greater good while a neutral evil character would protect that child if it went against his personal code. Play characters, not alignments.
Backgrounds- I like an extensive background, but two or three paragraphs is all that’s necessary.
Gestalt- Choose one of the options below for ½ of your Gestalt. Some monster templates are CR10 and do not need class levels, but most aren’t. If you need help adding class levels to a monster, pm me.
Leveling Up- You do not accrue experience. Instead, leveling up is a story event and happens at certain milestones, such as a timeskip or defeating a notable enemy.
Templates- When I refer to Monster Templates, I mean templates that come from an actual Bestiary entry, not a template as presented by Paizo. Any Paizo template that has a CR adjustment doubles that adjustment in level adjustment.
Character Templates
Choose one of these. It represents the additional powers granted the mysterious event. No two characters can have the same template, except if that template has multiple options. In that case, not two characters can choose the same option.
Generic Templates
Powerless- This is no actual template. Instead, it’s a character that was actually unaffected by the event, but branded anyways. Choose both sides of the gestalt and gain an additional 20,000 in starting gold.
Lycanthrope- Gain the lycanthrope template, choosing any CR 3 or less Animal, Magical Beast, or Vermin. Gain 8 levels in another class.
Animal Lord- Gain the Animal Lord template, choosing any CR 2 or less Animal or Vermin. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Phase Creature- Gain the Phase Creature template. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Shadow- Gain the Shadow Creature template. Gain 8 levels in another class.
Shadow Lord- Gain the Shadow Lord template. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Diamond- Gain the Diamond creature template. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Broken Soul- Gain the Broken Soul template. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Dragon
Half-Dragon Gain the Half-Dragon template. (For the breath weapon increase 1d6 damage dealt by ½ character level, not racial HD). Gain 6 levels in another class.
Dragon- Choose any CR10 metallic or chromatic dragon. Add no additional class levels.
Drake- Choose a Flame, Forest, Frost, River, or Shadow Drake, adding the appropriate class levels.
Faerie Dragon- Gain 8 levels in another class.
Undead
Undead Template- Choose the Vampire, Lich, or Grave Knight templates. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Pale Stranger- Gain no levels in another class. Start play with the Pale Stranger’s equipment, but not treasure.
Witchfire- Gain one level in another class.
Mummy- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Phantom Armor, Phantom Lancer- Gain 4 levels in another class.
Fey
Fey Creature- Gain the Fey Creature template. For the purposes of this template, you are considered HD 13. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Nereid- Gain no levels in another class.
Nymph- Gain 3 levels in another class.
Pixie- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Quickling- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Spring Heeled Jack- Gain 7 levels in another class.
Bogeyman- Gain no levels in another class.
Cold Rider- Gain two levels in another class. Start with the Cold Rider’s equipment.
Construct (All construct template characters have at least 10 intelligence)
Glass Golem- Gain two levels in another class.
Alchemical Golem- Gain one level in another class.
Angelic Guardian- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Clockwork Mage- Gain 1 level in another class.
Bone Golem- Gain 2 levels in another class.
Guardian, Gargoyle- Gain 2 levels in another class.
Robot, Gearsmen- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Terra Cotta Archer- Gain 4 levels in another class.
Mythical Beasts
Blink Dog- Gain 8 levels in another class.
Dragon Horse- Gain 1 level in another class.
Dweomer Cat- Gain 3 levels in another class.
Giant Owl- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Manticore- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Unicorn- Gain 7 levels in another class.
Worg- Gain 8 levels in another class.
Chimera- Gain 3 levels in another class.
Elementals
Elemental- Choose a single greater elemental; Earth, Fire, Ice, Water, Lightning, Gravity, Air, Mud, Magma, or Cold Iron. Gain 1 level in another class.
Outsiders
Half-Fiend- Gain the Half-Fiend template. For the purposes of this template, your HD is 10. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Half-Celestial- Gain the Half-Celestial template. For the purposes of this template, your HD is 10. Gain 6 levels in another class.
Aeon, Theletos- Gain 3 levels in another class.
Agathion, Vulpinal- Gain 4 levels in another class.
Azata, Yamah- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Devil Steed- Gain 2 levels in another class.
Axiomite- Gain 2 levels in another class.
Bebilith- Gain no levels in another class.
Magical Humanoids
Doppleganger- Gain 7 levels in another class.
Mothman- Gain 5 levels in another class.
Girtabilu- Gain 2 levels in another class.
Dark Stalker- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Medusa- Gain 3 levels in another class. (Turn off petrifying gaze as a free action)
Storm Hag- Gain 3 levels in another class.
Harpy- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Minotaur- Gain 6 levels in another class.
Jobs- Select one of these jobs. Jobs earn a weekly income, can garner resources, or raise renown.
Income- Is purely how much extra gold you make in a fortnight. Bad is a 100, Decent is 300, Good is 500, and Best is 800.
Resources- Various equipment or services you can use from your organization. Bad is none, Decent is basic ammunition only, Good are 3rd level spells and masterwork ammunition, Great are 5th level spells and +1 ammunition, and Best is 8th level spells and +2 ammunition.
Renown- How well liked you are in Kelovar. This acts as both a bonus to charisma skill checks, requesting aid, and a few other effects. Bad is -2 on all charisma skill checks. Decent is 0 on all charisma skill checks. Good is +2 on all charisma skill checks and requesting the aid of any 3rd level character. Great is +4 on all charisma skill checks and requesting the aid of any 5th level character. Best is +6 on all charisma skill checks and requesting the aid of any 8th level character.
The Watch- Be a high ranking member of the Kelovar watch, as either the patrolling Stag Watch, the investigating Wolf Watch, or the special response team Raven Watch.
Income- Bad, Resources- Great, Renown- Good
Crime- Belong to one of the two crime organizations, the monstrous humanoid Bloodscar or the human only Vetch Family. Striking out as a solo criminal could be prosperous, but dangerous.
Income- Great, Resources- Good, Renown- Bad
Adventurer- Come to Kelovar looking for adventure!
Income- Decent, Resources- Bad, Renown- Best
Business- Either own a small business or have a large share in a big one or company.
Income- Best, Resources- Bad, Renown- Decent
Scholar- Get paid, usually by the Absalom government, to research the various structure and mysteries surrounding Kelovar.
Income- Decent, Resources- Decent, Renown- Decent
Agent- Work for a major religion or government looking for a foothold in Kelovar.
Income- Decent, Resources- Best, Renown- Bad
Merchant- Make a living buying and selling various goods.
Income- Great, Resources- Decent, Renown- Bad
Priest- Work in a temple devoted to one or more gods.
Income- Bad, Resources- Good, Renown- Best
Entertainer- Play music, perform acrobatics, etc.
Income- Good, Resources- Bad, Renown- Great
Profession- Any other job that comes to mind.
Income- Good, Resources- Decent, Renown- Decent
|
So some examples and questions to be sure I got this right
I can be an adult white dragon cleric 10 with these stats Str 21, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17+2, Cha 16 and 20 k to spend.
A powerless 10 barbarian/10 alchemist with 18+2,10,11,15,10,10 stats and 40,000 gold to spend
A Mothman fighter 5, oracle 5, wizard 5.
Are their prestige classes ie Doppleganger, wizard 3, cleric 3, Mystic theurge 7.
Is there magic crafting and if so is there a starting cost cut.
Ultimate campaigns retraining.
Lastly the jobs can others buy the services for you i.e. My entertainer bard/fighter wants a bane dragon arrow so he turns to Joe's Agent Cleric/barbarian and gives him the money to buy a +1 bane from his allies and contacts.
How about playtest classes? I know they're like half gestalt anyway, but thought I'd ask.
I'm at work for a couple more hours, but I'm definitely interested in this. I'll start working on a character when I get home.
This definitely seems interesting, I love gestalt games, especially high level ones (that's where the fun starts.) Will sign up if you decide to go ahead with this.
This looks interesting. I am curious about an answer to the wizard 3/cleric 3/mystic theurge 7 questions though.
Ooh, a gestalt game, you don't see a lot of those on these particular forums. Shiny!
I think a captain of the guard would be a fun place to start. He was probably a half-orc barbarian/rogue/fighter before the event. Although maybe not barbarian, as I'd like for him to be lawful, in that he was actually attempting to create some semblance of order in this city.
I think I'll go with powerless for my character template. Or maybe graveknight or lycantrophe, for a different feel.
Edit:
Walter, I think what you need to know is this;
Your character is level 10.
Regardless of which templae you choose, you get to make one 'side' with 10 levels of a class of your choice. Then you get another 'side' with whatever you get from your character archetype.
An example white dragon character would be Sorcerer 10//White dragon 13. He'd have the base attack, hd, skills, saves and abilities of a white dragon 13, as all of those are better than that of a sorcerer, and he'd have the spellcastng and class abilites of a sorcerer.
His abilities would be 25, 12, 21, 12, 15, 12 with 2 points to spend from leveling up to level 10.
His class skills would be all sorcerer class skills, as well as all white dragon class skills.
Incidentally, picking a dragon is a really good idea, because it lets you have more HD than a normal 10th level character. HD are really good for martial characters and skill monkeys, and their physical stats are pretty much godly compared to what you could do with a 25pb.
|
|
Sorry about all the questions my first time using gestalts and templates but if I chose a huge bebilith with stats
Str 28, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
but played a medium character would I have to
Medium Large +8 –2 +4 +2
Large Huge +8 –2 +4 +3
take off 16 str add 4 dex take off 8 con and 5 natural armor or would I use the strait stats leaving him with along with dropping his cmb/cmd.
12 16 16 11 13 13 as stats before the 4th and 8th lvl up points.
Also do I keep the monsters feats.
I'm not sure what the correct answer to your question is here.
But generally, monster size change guidelines are disregarded when creating characters.
You probably keep all feats the monster gained as bonus feats. You don't gain feats they gain from leveling as bonus feats.
Adult White Dragons get alertness as a bonus feat, for instance, so you'd get that too. But all the rest of their feats (power attack, vital strike, weapon focus etc.) stem from their level, so you wouldn't gain those.
Edit:
Can I request using the path of war playtest material from dreamscarred press? It's pretty much the same as tome of battle from D&D, it just loses much of the anime flavour.
For monsters their feats are usually considered class feats (such as light/medium/heavy armor proficiency and weapon proficiency.) I do have a question regarding third party rules, since Pathfinder gives rules for converting 3.5 prestige classes, would it be acceptable to adapt one of those? I'm considering playing a young-adult silver dragon and using a prestige class from the Draconomicon, as well as outfitting the character with equipment from it. If this isn't acceptable just let me know so that I can modify my concept. Thinking of doing a Sacred Warder.
Where do you find out which feats are bonus feats and which are gained through leveling? I'm looking at Bogeyman for my template half and trying to decide between Rogue, Monk, and Synthesist Summoner (I've always wanted to play once just because everybody says they're so OP... this seems like the perfect campaign for it) for my other half.
Yeah, I double checked and trying to do what I want is too complex, REWRITE!
|
|
Ok so the main Idea for my character is an angel blooded Graveknight(effective 6) Antipaladin 3 Ninja 1/Urban Barbarian 10.
I want to go the whole paladin traded his soul for continued life to one of the demon lords got exactly what he asked for.
Stats are
Str 16 + 2 race + 2 lvls=20
Dex 12
Con 7 to -undead
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 + 2 race= 20
I've got two questions:
When does recruitment close?
How would you rules the increased skill ranks of the Fighter archetypes Lore Warder and Tactician play into Gestalt rules? Both specifically replace a class feature of fighter.
I'm thinking juvenile bronze dragon for my base. I'm not sure what to partner it with. I might go for monk, but I'm not sure how to utilize its features, mainly flurry, with natural weapons. A sohei5/fighter 5 might be the way to go. I'l be thinking some more.
Can we request stuff from 3.5e as third party material?
Alternatively, a mage-knight is always fun. That'd probably be ten levels of straight up sorcerer or wizard.
Okay, here's the stat block for My submitted character, went with no special template, straight up human.
DEX: 14
CON: 12
INT: 10
WIS: 22
CHA: 7
LEVEL: Monk 10/Rogue 10
Alignment: LE
Deity: Norgorber
Feats: Improved unarmed strike, Dodge, Scorpion Style, Combat Reflexes, Gorgon’s Fist, Stunning Fist (Bonus feats)
Mobility, Blind Fight, Bleeding Attack, Improved Grapple, Chokehold, Dastardly Finish
HP: 54
BAB: +7/+2 (FOB: +8/+8/+3/+3)
Will: +7 (+13)
Fort: +7 (+9)
Ref: +7 (+9)
Traits: Urchin, Orphan
Rogue Talents: Fast Fingers, Fast Stealth, Hard to fool, Trap Spotter, Wall Scramble
Advanced Talent: Crippling Strike
Abilities: Improved Evasion, Fast movement (+30), Maneuver Training, Still Mind, Ki pool (11), Slow fall (50 ft.) Purity of Body, Wholeness of Body, Trapfinding, Trap sense, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Sneak attack (+5d6), Unarmed damage (1d10)
AC: 20 (18 Flat, 20 touch)
Skills:
Acrobatics: 10 ranks (15)
Climb: 10 ranks (15)
Disable Device: 10 ranks (15)
Escape Artist: 10 ranks (15)
Perception: 10 ranks (19)
Stealth: 10 ranks (15)
Craft (Alchemy): 10 ranks (13)
Sleight of Hand: 10 ranks (15)
Swim: 10 ranks (15)
Linguistics: 10 ranks (13)
Languages: Common, Elven, Dwarven, Draconic, Halfling, Goblin, Orcish, Gnomish, Infernal, Abyssal, Necril
Favored Class: Rogue
Job: Criminal
You want revenge? Money? Power? We can help you.
With that offer young Alexander was taken off the streets, and brought into a small run down shack, a click , a twist and a secret passage brought him down into a large building set up in the vast sewer systems.
Welcome to the monastery of Norgorber young one.
The screams of the innocent, the stench of blood, brains, and the loosing of a dead man’s bowels filled the air. Many people were wearing masks black as midnight. Should Alexander have been scarred? Yes. Was he? No. Ever since his parents had been murdered by Bloodscar enforcers, and he had been left out on the streets, every day had brought nothing but cold, suffering and starvation. Maybe these servants of Norgorber would kill him, maybe they would raise him, either way it was an end to his suffering. For the next 16 years he trained under the Sons and Daughters of the Mask. Before finally being given a mask of his own and sent off to do the work of the Grey Master Blackfingers.
Age: 21
Height: 5'6"
Weight: 160 lbs
Brown hair, grey eyes, his face is scarred and burnt from mistakes made during his training, but the black mask he wears usually conceals it. Alexander usually wears a set of black clothing, loose enough to provide a freedom of movement, but tight enough that it won't catch on anything.
I'm thinking juvenile bronze dragon for my base. I'm not sure what to partner it with. I might go for monk, but I'm not sure how to utilize its features, mainly flurry, with natural weapons. A sohei5/fighter 5 might be the way to go. I'l be thinking some more.
Can we request stuff from 3.5e as third party material?
Alternatively, a mage-knight is always fun. That'd probably be ten levels of straight up sorcerer or wizard.
Yeah, initially I wanted to create a silver dragon warder of Insert good dragon god here. But I decided against that and went with the guy I wrote up.
One more question, do the different classes count as different "choices" for Powerless templates? That is could there be, for instance a rogue/fighter powerless and a druid/monk powerless or whatever?
One more question, do the different classes count as different "choices" for Powerless templates? That is could there be, for instance a rogue/fighter powerless and a druid/monk powerless or whatever?
Choose both sides of the gestalt
You are correct, Andiemus.
I can see where Flinn has put a lot of thought into this process. Respectfully suggesting something here:
For the side that has the monster, take CR or HD, whichever is higher, and subtract from 10, no creatures with CR or HD higher than 10. And, if the moster clas has abilities that may stack with the class or gestalt, they can't exceed effective level 10 from the base ability (such as taking a dragon that is a sorcerer and then taking sorcerer, no being a 10 HD creature with 15th level casting).
So a young red dragon would be out since it is CR 10, but HD 11.
Question: With the templates, what base creature are these being added to?
This faces the problem of no dragons being allowed for selection.
He stated CR 10 chromatic or metallic dragons: The complete list of those runs: Black Young Adult(12HD), Blue Juvenile (12HD), Brass Young Adult (12HD), Bronze Juvenile (12HD), Red Young (11HD), Silver Young (11HD), White Adult (13HD).
That's why I'm taking the Bogeyman template (which is 17HD) and bringing it down to 10HD. Reducing HP, BAB, Saves, Feats, and Skills appropriately (he specifically stated to leave the ability scores). And then comparing the Fighter10 and replacing what is necessary.
The complication comes in that generally, you look at each HD in the gestalt to take the best of.
White dragon 1 / Cleric 1
White dragon 2 / Cleric 2
White dragon 3 / Cleric 3
White dragon 4 / Cleric 4
White dragon 5 / Cleric 5
White dragon 6 / Cleric 6
White dragon 7 / Cleric 7
White dragon 8 / Cleric 8
White dragon 9 / Cleric 9
White dragon 10 / Cleric 10
White dragon 11 / ???
White dragon 12 / ???
White dragon 13 / ???So what happens when it is time to level up? Does the cleric go up a level and leave the dragon side alone for 3 levels? Do both go up with a gap?
Keep in mind that CR is used to define combat strength vs a party of 4.
And monster attributes are already assumed to use a +1 every 4 HD.
Sure. But keep in mind that this dragon is assumed under the CR rules to be as challenging an encounter as a lvl 10 PC wizard.
And the dragons are notoriously under CR'ed. Contemplate playing a minotaur, if you will. Under the model you propose, they take six levels of minotaur, as opposed to four along with two 'ghost levels' or whatever you might call it.
In exchange for their six class levels, they get str 19, dex 10, con 15, int 7, wis 10, cha 8(17+7-4-2=18 point buy, with a +1 in str that you can't buy. Doing the same thing with a human would be 14pb.), natural cunning, a gore attack, powerful charge with said gore attack, and five points of natural armor.
This might nearly be worth it for four class levels, but it is nowhere near worth it for six.
Also, monsters have the ability scores they need to hit the right categories for damage, to hit, saves and so on. It has nothing to do with factoring in level increases.
Edit I really like grinningjesters method. Although if onsters are CR'd based on their ability to smash up things as well as an equivalent level fighter that might still run into problems.
The complication comes in that generally, you look at each HD in the gestalt to take the best of.
White dragon 1 / Cleric 1
...
White dragon 13 / ???So what happens when it is time to level up? Does the cleric go up a level and leave the dragon side alone for 3 levels? Do both go up with a gap?
Keep in mind that CR is used to define combat strength vs a party of 4.
And monster attributes are already assumed to use a +1 every 4 HD.
Sure. But keep in mind that this dragon is assumed under the CR rules to be as challenging an encounter as a lvl 10 PC wizard.
Also, monsters have the ability scores they need to hit the right categories for damage, to hit, saves and so on. It has nothing to do with factoring in level increases.
Edit I really like grinningjesters method. Although if onsters are CR'd based on their ability to smash up things as well as an equivalent level fighter that might still run into problems.
Yeah I was just going to ask if the CR meant they'd be as challenging as a single PC of that level, because if so, I'd put everything back. The way I understand it though is that the 17HD template which is CR10 would be an appropriate challenge for four, CL10 PCs. I find it hard to believe that it would take four, 10CL PCs to take on a single CL10 PC.
CR is based on a group of four PC's not 1.
How do you balance the 6d6 of sneak attack dice for the bogeyman, when a rogue doesn't get that until 11th level?
A bogeyman's attributes are STR +2, Dex +10, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +10 (+4 from bumps at 4, 8, 12, 16). Point buy is better than 56 (table doesn't provide cost for +10).
That's pretty significant when compared to a level 10 human rogue, or level 10 human sorcerer.
True, but a party of four level 10s would find going up against it about par for the course. If we go by what's written in the Core rulebook, CR for 3 or fewer PCs should be APL-1. I'd even go ahead and say APL-2 is =CR for a solo player. So a solo lvl 10 should have a CR8 encounter be about normal. Agree?
Dropping down the HP, the SA dice to 5d6 (I didn't notice that, never having played a rogue), reducing saves (which I'm still trying to figure out the progression pattern for) Edit(disregard, figured it out), removing feats and skills... Do think that would reduce it from CR10 to CR8, even with the beefed up attributes?
Of course we should probably just wait for Flinnfurious to settle how it's going to be handled...
CR is based on a group of four PC's not 1.
How do you balance the 6d6 of sneak attack dice for the bogeyman, when a rogue doesn't get that until 11th level?
A bogeyman's attributes are STR +2, Dex +10, Con +4, Int +4, Wis +6, Cha +10 (+4 from bumps at 4, 8, 12, 16). Point buy is better than 56 (table doesn't provide cost for +10).
That's pretty significant when compared to a level 10 human rogue, or level 10 human sorcerer.
CR being based on a group of PC's doesn't really come int it at all. The point is that one challenge rating 10 thing should be at a power level that looks much like any cr 10 creature you'd care to mention, including any WBL geared lvl 10 character.
That's why letting someone get a CR 10 creature instead of 10 class levels is a better idea than letting someone get a nerfed CR10 creature instead of 10 class levels.
My understanding of Flinnfurious' method is that it doesn't matter how many hit dice the monster has. You look at a 10th level cleric and the monster-as-written, and take the best stats from that combination. If the monster allows you extra class levels, you simply apply the specified number of class levels normally, then combine with a 10th level character of the other class you want.
How I arrived at that understanding, I don't know. But it makes sense and makes the system work. It's definitely simpler than the standard gestalt rules, even if you allow for partial multiclassing (where you change one or both of your gestalt classes partway though.
This definitely sounds like an intriguing campaign. I'll have to play with the idea and see what I come up with. But a blink dog with the dimensional agility feats would be pretty nasty...
Do a template's spellcasting abilities stack with actual spellcasting levels taken on the same side? For instance, say that you chose a CR 7 template which casts spells as if it were a level 7 Cleric. If you were to then take 3 actual Cleric levels on top of that, would you now cast as a level 10 Cleric?
Yes, that's standard for leveling monsters. But it has to explicitly say it casts spells as a _______, not just have a bunch of spell-like abilities.
|
|
So, the dialogue on the monster templates has me a bit confused. I thought it was simple as taking the monster and giving it the class levels beside it. You know what? Just let me know what I did wrong here-- that's much easier!
Male human monk 1/swashbuckler 1/axiomite (8)
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +9; Senses Perception +18
-Defense---------------------------------
AC 31, touch 21, flat-footed 25 (+5 Dex, +4 armor, +1 dodge, +6 natural, +5 wisdom)
hp 105 (10d10+1d10+1d8+36)
Fort +8, Ref +16, Will +16
-Offense---------------------------------
Spd 30 ft., fly 30 ft. (good)
Melee rapier +17/+12/+7 (1d6+6 18-20/x2) or power attack rapier +14/+9/+4 (1d6+12 18-20/x2)
flurry of blows +15/+15/+10/+5 (1d6+6) or power attack flurry of blows +12/+12/+7/+2 (1d6+12)
Special Attacks stunning fist 1/day (DC 21)
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 9th, concentration +14)
3/day-- dispel chaos, haste, hold monster (DC 20), lightning bolt (DC 18), empowered order's wrath (DC 19), telekinesis (DC 20), true strike
1/day--summon inevitable (level 6, 1 zelekhut, see below), true seeing
-Statistics------------------------------
Str 22, Dex 20, Con 16, Int 21, Wis 20, Cha 20
Base Atk +11; CMB +17; CMD 38
Feats Dodge, Empower Spell-Like Ability (order's wrath), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Mobility, Combat Reflexes, Power Attack
Skills Acrobatics +18, Craft (weaponsmithing) +18, Diplomacy +19, Fly +8, Knowledge (arcana) +16, Knowledge (religion) +16, Knowledge (local) +16, Knowledge (planes) +18, Perception +19, Perform (lute) +9, Sense Motive +18, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +17, Survival +18, Swim +10
Traits
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Infernal
Combat Gear
Special Abilities crystalline dust form (free action; incoporeal), panache 5/5 (derring-do [acrobatics, climb, escape artist, fly, ride, swim 1/+1d6], dodging panache +5 AC, opportune parry and riposte +17), swashbuckler finesse
I'm certainly interested. Always wanted to play a gestalt game but they're so hard to find. The character creation is still somewhat murky (though considering how complicated it looks, it's far more clear than it could be!).
I'd likely be interested in a magus/wizard type of character (fullcasting magus, yum). I'll take a closer look at the different templates/creatures and see if any good flavor ideas leap out.
edit: the generic templates are most interesting. Might just go with powerless (assuming it's available, and if different class combos count as different choices as asked above). I don't quite understand how to apply the other templates in the category though (shadow, for example).
Also, what races are available? Just human?
Sorry for leaving this alone. I honestly didn't think more than a few people would comment until after Christmas.
To clarify about the various arguments concerning HD vs CR, I know a high CR creature isn't supposed to be equivalent to levels in a class. One example pointed out is the Bogeyman, who has a higher Sneak Attack at CR 10 than an 11th level rogue.
While the stats aren't precisely balanced, they're still thematically balanced. Basically it's choices vs raw power. Those with more class levels will have more control over what their character is capable of while those who choose the higher level templates will have more raw power.
This is essentially a super powered campaign. The foes you face will be varied, powerful, and moderately unique. It will take a plethora of skills, powers, and abilities to defeat them, so don't worry so much about balancing stat blocks.
Bobson is correct when it comes to mixing the monsters and gestalt classes.
So some examples and questions to be sure I got this right
I can be an adult white dragon cleric 10 with these stats Str 21, Dex 12, Con 17, Int 16, Wis 17+2, Cha 16 and 20 k to spend.
A powerless 10 barbarian/10 alchemist with 18+2,10,11,15,10,10 stats and 40,000 gold to spend
A Mothman fighter 5, oracle 5, wizard 5.
Are their prestige classes ie Doppleganger, wizard 3, cleric 3, Mystic theurge 7.
Is there magic crafting and if so is there a starting cost cut.
Ultimate campaigns retraining.
Lastly the jobs can others buy the services for you i.e. My entertainer bard/fighter wants a bane dragon arrow so he turns to Joe's Agent Cleric/barbarian and gives him the money to buy a +1 bane from his allies and contacts.
As The Dragon said, any 1/2 of your gestalt cannot exceed 10 when combining their level+CR.
Prestige classes are fine as they are official paizo and you can use any half of the gestalt to qualify for one. For example, if you wanted to play a Lions Blade Bogeyman, you could have one side be a level 8 bard, level 2 Lion's Blade, and satisfy the Sneak Attack requirement with the Bogeyman.
Sorry about all the questions my first time using gestalts and templates but if I chose a huge bebilith with stats
Str 28, Dex 12, Con 24, Int 11, Wis 13, Cha 13
but played a medium character would I have to
Medium Large +8 –2 +4 +2
Large Huge +8 –2 +4 +3take off 16 str add 4 dex take off 8 con and 5 natural armor or would I use the strait stats leaving him with along with dropping his cmb/cmd.
12 16 16 11 13 13 as stats before the 4th and 8th lvl up points.
Also do I keep the monsters feats.
You keep all the monster's feats and stats, disregarding the size changes. A Huge creature's AC is unaffected by being stuck in a Medium creature's body.
How about playtest classes? I know they're like half gestalt anyway, but thought I'd ask.
Giving them a look over, I'd say it's fine to use them, but with the following caveat; You may only use one and the other side of the gestalt cannot include one of the mixed classes.
I'm thinking juvenile bronze dragon for my base. I'm not sure what to partner it with. I might go for monk, but I'm not sure how to utilize its features, mainly flurry, with natural weapons. A sohei5/fighter 5 might be the way to go. I'l be thinking some more.
Can we request stuff from 3.5e as third party material?
Alternatively, a mage-knight is always fun. That'd probably be ten levels of straight up sorcerer or wizard.
Feel perfectly free to ask for 3.5 stuff, but I will turn down some of the more broken prestige classes. I'm looking at you, Disciple of Dispater.
I've got two questions:
When does recruitment close?
How would you rules the increased skill ranks of the Fighter archetypes Lore Warder and Tactician play into Gestalt rules? Both specifically replace a class feature of fighter.
Normally a gestalt character simply uses whichever class has the higher number of skill points available, but in this the Lore Warden simply gives the fighter more skill points. So, he would have the skills per level of a Tactician and the bonus skill points from the Lore Warden.
Ok so the main Idea for my character is an angel blooded Graveknight(effective 6) Antipaladin 3 Ninja 1/Urban Barbarian 10.
I want to go the whole paladin traded his soul for continued life to one of the demon lords got exactly what he asked for.
Stats are
Str 16 + 2 race + 2 lvls=20
Dex 12
Con 7 to -undead
Int 10
Wis 10
Cha 18 + 2 race= 20
Two things. 1- Your character is Branded and granted mysterious powers by an ancient Azlanti mcguffin. He's not technically a Graveknight. 2- Sorry to say this, but it's not okay to stack templates, which is what I'm assuming Angel Blooded is. It's still okay to go with the cursed Paladin character, since most of the Graveknight's powers are clearly evil.
Where do you find out which feats are bonus feats and which are gained through leveling? I'm looking at Bogeyman for my template half and trying to decide between Rogue, Monk, and Synthesist Summoner (I've always wanted to play once just because everybody says they're so OP... this seems like the perfect campaign for it) for my other half.
Just take whatever feats the monster has, regardless of their source. Fair warning regarding the Synthesist Summoner. It's really good because it lets a caster pilot a tank. If your character already has high physical stats and abilities, it's not as good.
For monsters their feats are usually considered class feats (such as light/medium/heavy armor proficiency and weapon proficiency.) I do have a question regarding third party rules, since Pathfinder gives rules for converting 3.5 prestige classes, would it be acceptable to adapt one of those? I'm considering playing a young-adult silver dragon and using a prestige class from the Draconomicon, as well as outfitting the character with equipment from it. If this isn't acceptable just let me know so that I can modify my concept. Thinking of doing a Sacred Warder.
It's okay to ask for 3.5 stuff, but as for dragon prestige classes... I don't know. Let me check. Ask me again when you have the +15 BAB necessary. As for the equipment, it depends. Need specifics before making a ruling.
I'm not sure what the correct answer to your question is here.
But generally, monster size change guidelines are disregarded when creating characters.
You probably keep all feats the monster gained as bonus feats. You don't gain feats they gain from leveling as bonus feats.
Adult White Dragons get alertness as a bonus feat, for instance, so you'd get that too. But all the rest of their feats (power attack, vital strike, weapon focus etc.) stem from their level, so you wouldn't gain those.
Edit:
Can I request using the path of war playtest material from dreamscarred press? It's pretty much the same as tome of battle from D&D, it just loses much of the anime flavour.
I haven't been able to find that PDF, but I'm probably going to say no. I like dreamscarred and both psionic and ToB campaigns are a lot of fun, but they tend to tip the scales too much when introduced into games not focused around them.
PM a link to the pdf and I'll take a look.If I missed a question, please let me know. Mostly running on Bailey's+cocoa and mint chocolate fudge, all after a year of dieting (spinach, water, black coffee, broiled chicken, etc.), so there's a good chance I missed something.
Alright gang, I've got ideas and ideas bouncing around my head. What would you all rather see?
Fighter/Rogue: Two-handed weapons and specializing in a feint/vital strike/sneak attack/called shot combo that should be pretty vicious in direct combat. His skill ranks should give him some versatility and surprising mobility despite moving around in Hellknight Plate. I was thinking of him being some sort of guard captain in charge of dealing with the weirdos around town.
--OR--
Gunslinger/Ranger: A pistol specialist and another skill heavy character. Meant to be a private investigator or something similar. Focused on turning his immediate surroundings into a charnel house with a revolver.
I'm drawing up a nymph/druid//rogue.
So based on your initial write up, I will have 8HD from the nymph, 3 more from druid, but 10 on the other side for rogue.
So when we level up, will we continue to level up both sides unbalanced, or just one side until the HD are equal?
Just to confirm, we can't repurpose feats that the monster has at odd levels to better fit our gestalt build?
For the purposes of most effects that are based on HD, it's 10. Both sides will level up.
As stated above, you keep any feats that the monster has from gained levels as well as the feats you would get from simply leveling up your character.
Just to confirm, we can't repurpose feats that the monster has at odd levels to better fit our gestalt build?
For the purposes of most effects that are based on HD, it's 10. Both sides will level up.
As stated above, you keep any feats that the monster has from gained levels as well as the feats you would get from simply leveling up your character.
Well then I've got a Pale Stranger//Mysterious Pistolero that I was tinkering around with last night pretty much ready to play. I can finish it up when I get off work, though that won't be for several hours. Maybe I can pass my time coming up with a backstory...
As stated above, you keep any feats that the monster has from gained levels as well as the feats you would get from simply leveling up your character.Just to confirm, we can't repurpose feats that the monster has at odd levels to better fit our gestalt build?
I think the question is more about the feats the monster has from racial hit dice. (i.e. the ones in it's Beastiary stat block.) The general assumption is that (unless they're bonus feats) they're just the typical ones a member of that race has, but a GM is free to swap them out for any other feats the monster qualifies for.
For instance, a Blink Dog has (by default) Combat Reflexes and Iron Will from their three hit dice. If I were to add 8 class levels, I'd add four more feats of my chosing (5, 7, 9, 11). So the question here is whether I get Combat Reflexes, Iron Will, and four others, or whether I get to just choose six feats in the first place?
This raises two side questions, though. First, does the "other half" provide an additional set of feats (1, 3, 5, 7, 9), giving me a total of 11 feats? Or are those feats supposed to match the ones we get from the monster side (the way typical gestalting works), leaving a total of 5-6 feats? Secondly, what happens when we level up to 11 and would normally get a feat?
My suggestion is to give each side feats separately, then combine the lists at the end, the same way the characters are being built - but this will result in far more feats than a character of that level would normally have. That seems to fit the flavor of the campaign, though.
Thanks for all of the clarifications so far Flinnfurious.
I'm still a little fuzzy on the feats. A Bebilith / Cleric 10 would get all of the feats listed under the Bebilith entry (That much is clear). Would they also get 5 more feats for the 10 levels of Cleric (levels 1, 3, 5, 7 9)?
Are there any limits on doubling up caster level? Could you do something like a Powerless Wizard 10 / Cleric 5 Mystic Theurge 5 and end up with 15 levels of wizard casting?
Currently I'm debating between a Pixie Ninja Paladin or some kind of Undead Fighter
Seeing as GrinningJest3r appears to have switched from Bogeyman to Pale Stranger, I'm considering throwing an Anti-Paladin Bogeyman into the mix. A great thief, a deadly assassin, a mere whisper upon the wind.
I would very much like to try this. When will recruitment be closed and will you allow the use of the playtest classes from the ACG?
With that concept in mind, I have some questions to make sure I'm calculating everything correctly:
- The Bogeyman appears to receive a deflection bonus equal to his Charisma modifier, but this ability is not mentioned anywhere. Can I assume that this bonus will increase if I increase his Charisma modifier?
- Despite the Bogeyman being a 17d6 creature, I will be counted as a 10d10 creature because of the Anti-Paladin levels. Thusly, my Bogeyman abilities will be adjusted down to a 10d10 creature, correct?
- I will still receive the full benefit of the Bogeyman's 6d6 sneak attack, correct?
- I will still receive all of the Bogeyman's feats, correct?
- Since a Fey receives good saves in Ref and Will, and an Anti-Paladin receives good saves in Fort and Will, I will have full progression in all saves, correct?
I think that sums up my questions at this point in time. I do believe that some of these might have already been addressed, but I wanted to make sure I was understanding everything correctly.