What if we set it on fire and didn't attack? We could watch it burn and watch their reaction. Might even get a preview of their casters ability
I don't personally like that plan as much, but it could be alright. If we set it on fire, the most likely outcome is that they either extinguish the fire easily or, if that's not possible, simply swim away.
I'd love to get some more input, but my vote is for the more passive option initially, so that we get to see more stuff.
As soon as you have a plan we can move on.
I've lost my computer charger, and will be unable to get another one until Tuesday. If we get more votes and decide on a plan before then, I probably won't be able to do anything.
While I'm here, I might as well summarize our options. Right now we like trying to set their den on fire and I like ambushing hunting parties. I like ambushing because we don't give up the element of surprise, and because it's pretty low risk in general since we get to pick fights against known enemy forces and can only engage when we feel advantaged. If we just set the world on fire, things could work out, but there's a decent chance that we just get steamrolled by at least ten trolls and one uber troll.
Please discuss and vote.
I'd rather pick them off if we can outside the den before setting things on fire. We don't know when the hunting parties are due back. I'd hate to have them show up in the middle of the burning fight.
I'm also not sure as well...
If we start picking them off, they may detect us, or at least know that something's up, causing them to get more alert.
Heads-on, seams dangerous as well, but with fire we may cause some havic. Maglins cloud could be useful as well.
...
Do Trolls sleep? If so and they dint set up watches, we may be able to sneak into the den, coup de grace some in their sleep, laying fire and fight the rest in utter confusion...
...
All in all, I guess picking off a patrol and then quickly engaging the rest, still buffed and all may work out well. Not waiting for them to get far away, just far enough out, so the rest of them will come late to the party.
Troops do sleep, but you haven't been here at night yet.
There are far more trolls than you thought. Without having eyes on the other side you can't be sure, but your best estimates now put the total number around 30, but there could easily be more.
The next morning dawns behind thick clouds, but it doesn't feel like rain.
Ayyy, anyone else getting 'a bad feeling about this'?^^
How are we for deception? Their trolls, so not too bright besides whoever their caster is. Let's pick off 1 party, ideally a 1 troll party, and see what happens. The dwarves have killed so many, perhaps they wouldn't notice.
I don't know what the skill checks would be, but we could finish the bodies off after they've fallen? Make it look like it was caused by undead or vicious 4 legged critters instead of hostile party? Who knows, maybe in retaliation they'll be kind enough to raid Rappan Athuk for us haha
Just lost a post, and I'm running out of time, I'll try to be quick.
Pyrotechnics and flaming sphere are a good combo, but pyro only covers a 20' radius, which is too small to get the whole cave. We'll know more when we see the map.
I don't know our flammables situation, but invisible Simon pouring oil on the roof and then flaming sphere from 150' away seems like our first move.
Sketching out buffs.
Simon-Haste, Shield, Cat's Grace----+7 AC brings you to 29. I can potentially also give you protection from evil to get you another +2 up to 31. This also gives you attack and damage boosts from Cat's Grace, which seems amazingly good.
Emily-Haste, Shield------+5 AC brings you to 24, seems a little low, protection might be better spent here.
Cain-Haste, Long Arm-----Extra attack is extremely potent here, long arm gives you much more control, also quite important. Is enlarge person bad on you? How good is owl's wisdom? Do you want an extract of shield or would you rather do that yourself and let me give Dalkk long arm?
Dalkk-Haste, Enlarge Person-----You're big and have an AC of 27 vs giants with mutagen, making you extremely in the way. This seems better than crossbowing. I think your damage output is still fairly low, let me know if you've got a better idea.
That's three extracts and one spell of each level I'm definitely using. If we assume I'll also use flaming sphere, that leaves me with two second level spells, two third level spells, and four first level spells.
I'm not sure how we want to allocate my AoE potential since I've not yet seen the map. It does seem like protection from evil is my best bet for first level spells, and I'll probably end up jamming that on both Simon and Emily. I'm probably going to have at least one glitterdust and at least one AoE that targets reflex, though not sure if web or create pit is better.
Let's see, what do they know about us? One of them got away, he probably mentioned a few things.
Cain is hard to kill.
Dalkk is big and hard to kill.
Simon is squishy, Emily moreso.
Maglin and Vuzi cast spells.
I guess that means they'll probably try to to ignore Cain and Dalkk and focus on Simon and/or rushing our casters.
Gotta go now, but please let me know what your thoughts on the best way for me to spend spells are.
Edit: reduce person extract good on Simon? That's competing with shield for Dalkk/Cain or Long Arm for Dalkk
I would suggest against reduce person, it has trade offs.
Go for a purely good kind of buff
In other news, what did the minion get a level in?
I'm guessing fighter or rogue but brawler would be potent on a ghoul
Reduce is a minor buff at the moment (big win once reaching next level though).
So that spell slot is certainly better spent on those other things.
I probably can throw out 2x barkskin for another +2AC stacking with pretty much anything.
I have the same extracts so those are certainly at our disposal if we need more.
The only real advantage to Megadwarf is control, specifically in CMB and CMD. I can hit harder and more accurately upth my crossbow and bombs at my current size and keep a higher AC bonus. Under haste that's 5 bolts per 3 round. 5 bolts per 2 round if Vance can help me reload. I'm projecting that I may have to do some running around though, Vuzi's Acid Splash and Alchemist's bombs may be critical to keep them from healing. I know Cain has flame swords and Emily acid bite, but one could get stuck between 2 trolls.
I'd rather keep to gang up tactics like we did in the first troll fight. Dalkk (maybe Megadwarf?) Could be used for positioning. I think once their caster shows up that'll be top priority.
Cain what do you think of Maglins Enlarge suggestion? With a potion of shield so you can 2hand and the large weapon size? You might lose some AC in the process though.
If we can, I'd like to set up an ambush. One of us can bait and be chased by them. At best, it divides there numbers and puts us fighting 5 at a time instead of 10. At worst (if they chase) we're fighting the same 10 but away from their potential reinforcements. If it springs a trap and 100 trolls pop out, only one of us has to get away.
"One of us can bait and be chased by them..."
Fine! I'll do it ... what's with all the running-meowi?
;-)
Edit: I could buff Cain with one of my barkskin spells, countering most of theAC loss from enlarge person that way.
I would love reduce person then, it means a -1 max damage but provides a +2 attack and +2 AC.
You got it buddy. You want to pop shield too? I'm not sure if that spell still gives a bonus on TWF. For that matter you should take a long arm as well. Don't want you to get stuck in a reach contest. As you close in on the troll you cross their reach threat range and provoke aoo
They have 15" reach?
10" reach and you can simply walk in, since only leaving a threatened space provokes, walking into one does not.
They have 10, but walking into their first square isn't a problem. Then you leave that square to step adjecent to them.
Long arm is probably a good idea, and since Dalkk has extracts too, we should be alright.
Still wondering exactly what Owl's Wisdom does on Cain. I think it's +2/+2 for offence and maybe does something else somewhere, in which case I'd prefer another spell.
Still waiting on that map to get a better idea of AoO targeting. Is web better than create pit and that sort of thing.
I think enlarge is pretty good on Dalkk. We aren't expecting him to get attacked as much as Simon, so the AC isn't quite as important, and control is really good. Esspecially if they rush me and Vuzi. It depends on the exact spacing that we want to occupy, but being twice as wide is generally good.
I don't know about trying to bait them. Trolls are dumb, but at least one of them has some sense and can cast, so they might not fall for it. Plus, I think the tight spacing of the troll den actually benefits us, since we're outnumbered and they're big. I prefer trying to burn their roof.
I can keep one on me, but the size and Dex is a net -2 to my attack. I'm going to want every bit of attack I can to put down the caster wherever she is at.
I don't see the baiting as all too risky. If they don't fall for it then we're exactly where we are now.
I'd vote web over pit in general, if for no other reason then they're flammable. Does pit grow in size at higher levels? Theyre double height and jump checks are str based. I worry maybe one will fall in and become the new floor for the rest. For those with summons fire elementals might be cool here.
Dalkk is going to try to make Incendiary Bolts the night before. For some reason, this is mundane and falls under craft Weapons instead of Craft Alchemy. If I score under 15 no progress is made. GM if you feel this is justifiably similar enough to craft Alchemy for a bolt ace alchemisy I'll sub out the bonuses Retroactivly.
After a bit of thinking ... I am more and more thinking that a straight up fight is best. Fire to their lair could bite us back at some point and will not help after all.
Luring them out... Maybe. But maybe it will give their cleric time to buff them up - which we really don't want to happen.
Just let us rush in and open fire with ranged weaponry against the priest if he's in sight. Between Dalkks crossbow, two casters, Cains bones and my bow, we should be able to dish out a fair amount of ranged damage. Then we'll see what they do. If they charge: All the better, send in some more arrows and nag them with spells. If they try to keep back around their priest, lets charge in or just shoot them until they move after all (or until they are busy being dead)...
Dalkk's crossbow has 120ft range and should still he able to hit from 240ft away without much issues. I'm guessing Maglin has at least a few long range spells. You might be able to pull aggro their, and even at a full run that's 2 rounds before they reach us.
It mays be unlikely... But Simon if you can find a tunnel like thicket of trees to help coax them in a line... And if Cain could hide where they'll cross, we could provoke some AoO too?
I agree with Simon, I think just attacking is best. If we provoke, they get to use their cleric a bit better, and it seems really hard to get them to a position that's better for us than the one they're already in.
Ok, lets just walk in, let Dalkk throw some obscenities (and Bolts) at them and meet them heads on.
Lets collect the buffs we use and when we activate them.
From my side:
On myself:
- Barksin +2 Nat Armor
... Can do this early on, 50min duration
... May trade this over to Cain, gettin small instead
- Shield +4 deflect AC
... Pop this extract once entering troll camp
... 5min duration
On Emily:
- Shield Companion +1 AC/Saves
... 5h duration, once we break camp
- Acid Maw
... 5min duration, once reaching the entry into the troll camp
- Barkskin (see above, early)
That's all of my lvl 2 spells and one lvl 1 spell.
Cats Grace from Maglin
... Actually this is optional!
... It does not stack with my Animal Focus so is a net +1 increase compared to my AF
... I can take another AF instead, so if you have spell slots to spare, I'll take it, otherwise I'd advice against it if you could that spell for something else
Sorry guys. Life kinda grabbed me by the nose. Map to come today, hopefully soon.
Well well well.
This is Gaurwaith, aka Maglin. I knew this day would come one day...I've forgotten the password to my account. Normally, this would not be a concern, since I could just ask them to send a reset email to the adress I provided at account creation. That email adress, however, no longer exists (and if it did I probably wouldn't remember the password, it's been a long time).
So I've just created a new account, and am currently working on copy pasting over old character information.
Looking over the map, it looks to me like entrance number one is our best bet, as it's the longest one, thus giving us the most possible room to maneuver inside a space the trolls have trouble accessing. I'm somewhat concerned about some of them appearing on the outside of the den and attacking from the other side of the tunnel.
waa waa waaaa :(
I hope you didn't have any purchases on there. Maybe Paizo's team could help?
Welcome back Magsy 2.
I don't know that the tunnel length is accurate. The imagery tells me that they all extend beyond that. If we're going in strong then I'm not sure it matters which one we pick since we know it is all one big room.
With 10 strong outside I still don't like the idea of going for a direct charge, but I'm down for whatever.
Does anyone here have water ability? I'd like to find out what is lurking in the water tunnels and where they exit before we *have* to find out.
Dalkks Extracts
LvL 1
Shield - Simon
Reduce Person - Simon
Long Arm - Simon
Long Arm - Cain
True Strike - Cain
Shield - Emily?
LvL 2
Alchemical Allocation - Dalkk
Cats Grace - Simon
Eagle's Splendor - Vuzi
Unless I go Melee I'm keeping Vance at my side as a squire to help reload and handle various things. I'm assuming he knows or I've shown him how to reload crossbows and handle a torch, as neither require training.
Unrelated, I shared Dalkk's little mermaid moment with some family and friends. My Mother posted it on Reddit and apparently I was too subtle, but I can't get it out of my head.
I don't exactly think we'll just charge right into the middle of things. If we hang out in the tunnels they can only come at us one at a time in melee. Our melee damage output is higher than our ranged output, but I'm pretty sure that our ranged output is enough better than theirs that they will be incentivized to try to duke it out.
While web is generally better than create pit, I worry that I can only cast web inside the tunnels, as it requires two anchor points. Maybe I'll just run glitterdust instead, but glitterdust is substantially weaker since they get a save each round and it hits a smaller area and it doesn't stick around.
Any of the tunnels will do if they're all long. I like long tunnels because, if things eventually go south, we can potentially put big Dalkk on one side and Cain/Simon on the other, thus remaining effective even while surrounded.
While we can get AC to be okay, I wonder about our CMD. Reposition is really strong when it's 5 on 11 and the 5 are in a tunnel.
If you're wondering, I was required to choose a different name for this avatar. Uosta means fearless, or if you like without the possibility of fear. Maglin has a trait which makes him shaken if he takes damage, so he's not really fearless, but he's not ever going to be daunted. I don't think he fears death all that much, though it depends on his emotion at the time, of course.
If we plan to hold up in the tunnels (I like this better than a full charge) then what about Grease, possible on both sides? I mean, while doing all I can to avoid rehashing a prior punishing post... we do have a greased up dwarf in our pocket.
The tunnels are as long as they appear on the map.
So with that answered the next question is how do we get in? Are we looking at a direct confrontation on the outside? I assume Simon could get in, but not all of us are as quiet
@Dalkk The internet is dense sometimes. Hahaha. I got it and I haven't seen the Little Mermaid in forever.
I can't help with quiet, sorry. I can give someone protection from evil and shield of faith if they would like it. I can also align weapons if you think that would be helpful, but if they are just trolls maybe not so much.
I thought Vuzi had a wand of Bless or something? Regardless I would be ready with that Acid Splash. I know it's not a ton of damage, they heal any round they don't take acid or fire dmg. Plus the damage may force some concentration checks for the Caster when she shows up.
Anyone have any objections to me just attacking the outer guard? I get that it's not a great plan, and so rarely do we have the advantage, but I don't see a lot of options here if we're not luring them along.
Hmm...if we can't get close without letting them know we're coming, then there might be some real value in setting fire to things. If that causes enough panic to let us get to the tunnels unnoticed, then we're in the tunnels, in which case I think we're in a reasonable position. Do you agree that us being in the tunnels is about as good as we can expect to do?
Alternatively, we could do it the boring way, and just continue to stay outside until they have to go looking for food again. It's pretty hard to hunt as a group of 11, so they'd likely have to use a magical solution or else split up. If they split up, we're in okay shape.
Cain is just fine with a frontal assault once we thin them out a bit
Go in through tunnel 3 if we can manage, staying as far off those water holes as possible.
I don't trust them.
Also Simon is not that good of a swimmer mechanical wise.
Without a s~&% ton more prep work, tunnels may be the best solution yes. I'd like to resubmit my lure idea. I don't (and Dalk doesn't) believe that there are only 10 left, certainly some besshooting. priestess is in there.
Id like to position Dalkk 2 to 300 feet away and start shooting. This will lead some number of them away. Next depends on how many.
0 Trolls - Well I guess I'll keep shooting from safety until one drops, then the next?
1 to 5 Trolls - We ambush them when they get closer, ideally out of sight of the rest. Wash rinse repeat. These 5 are taken out, with no caster to aid them.
6 to 10 Trolls - If we're looking for a safe resolution then same as above, but I'd be game for *dunh dunh DUNHH* splitting the party. The trolls initial run is going to take out 2 to 3 turns there. I don't believe for a moment that I can take 10 solo, but I do believe I could keep them busy (lots of running) with relative safety while the rest of the party took down the hive.
6 to 10 Trolls + Priest - Wait for them to run past. I'll start on one side, you all start with the caster, and we'll meet in the middle. Or really much closer to my side as I'm desperately praying 4 trolls around me don't crit.
I really really feel like we have a stronger advantage not being in the troll mound. I've got Admiral Ackbar screaming in the back of my head.
No splitting the party!
No splitting the party!
I know I've shared this song before, but its even more relevant with Trolls lol.
So this gives us new information. We now have 2 options I think.
Option 1 - Shoot them, make them retreat, attempt to burn down the mound.
Option 2 - Shoot them, make them retreat, and walk in.
I'm assuming that like ship combat the mound is considered an attended item, which makes it significantly harder to burn. If we can spare a summon spell I'd suggest this.
Shoot to send them inside > summon a creature on the same side the shots are fired from > actually enter from the opposite side of the mound
It may do nothing, but worth a shot
Also, well played Choon
Very well, you've convinced me, Dalkk. Being far away gives us more capacity to make decisions after getting more information, which is good.
GM Choon, how dense are the trees around the den? I want to know because I'm deciding if web is worth preparing if we fight out in the open.
Dense enough for web, though you've failed to provoke them into a charge so far.
So when we stand ~250' away, are any trolls visible?
I think that was roughly where Dalkk stood when he shot them, so at least one side of the mound must be visible.
I don't think a fight in the open will happen.
Too many nasty surprises in there to pass it up I'd guess ;-)
So we set the place on fire
Smoke and/of enrage them out
I agree about burning it down.
Next time we assault a fortress, we should bring barrels of oil
Battle plans draft 1.
Dalkk has specified some extracts. This leaves us with four of my own extracts.
I am thinking long arm for Emily, enlarge person for Dalkk (but not to be used unless necessary), shield for Dalkk, and possibly shield for Cain. Does Cain want an extract of shield?
I will prepare as first level spells protection from evil x2, obscuring mist, grease x2, and mage armor. I will prepare as second level spells web x2, glitterdust, and invisibility. I will prepare as third level spells haste and Summon Monster III x3.
Vuzi and Simon don't prepare spells.
Sound good?
Part 1, no matter what
I drink my cognitogen.
I cast mage armor.
Dalkk drinks his mutagen.
Simon casts barkskin and shield companion on Emily.
Dalkk drinks alchemical allocation.
Dalkk drinks heroism and spits it back out.
We quietly and stealthily assemble 250-300 ft away from the den.
Dalkk begins shooting incindiary bolts at any visibile trolls.
Part 2, if they attack
We get two rounds before they reach us.
Round 1
Simon drinks shield.
Can Emily drink an extract of shield? Do we need to put it in a special vessel for her? GM Choon?
Cain drinks Long arm.
Dalkk is shooting.
Maglin readies an action to cast web when they get 150' away. This should delay them by a round and some of them by more than a round.
Vance is a squire.
Vuzi drinks Eagle's Splendour.
Round 2
Maglin casts haste.
Vance is a squire.
Dalkk is shooting.
Simon drinks one of the following: long arm, reduce person, invisibility.
Emily drinks long arm.
Vuzi casts a spell, not sure what. Bless? Boneshaker?
Cain makes his weapon on fire.
Round 3
We figure stuff out.
If, instead, they do not attack, then we have to set their building on fire. The possibility of them not attacking is why we aren't drinking extracts with durations of a few minutes before initiating the action. In this case, we send invisible Simon forward carrying as much oil as possible, which he pours on their roof. When he gets back, if nothing's happened, Dalkk shoots an incindiary bolt to set it on fire. The oil at least will burn a little, and we will hopefully get them to at least try to put out the fire, exposing them to shots by Dalkk. We'll have to improvise a bit and figure things out as we go, but we'll try to keep our distance if possible so we have time to drink extracts. Our ultimate goal is to provoke a fight where we've had two rounds to buff up and are not fighting inside their terrain, which we suspect we can win.
Suggest revisions or assent so we can put this into action.