I'm a bit confused. On the surprise round I spurred my mount forward (a free action) and asked if I was within 180 feet of the bear. It was my understanding that I was further away than that, so I skipped my actual action.
On the initiative tracker it says I ended up right at the distance I wanted to be, but then took no action except riding my horse.
Did I miss something about why I didn't get an action?
Well,....
I just learned that when you Edit your post it changes your dice rolls!
I made the the recent Surprise Round post and saw that Arnam Goodkin was Initiative 10 and Freedom was Initiative 23. ....So I went to Edit it putting Freedom -- at 23 -- at the top. And oops, it gave Freedom the first roll and Arnam the second roll! I had to fix it in order to keep what I initially rolled-- Arnam Goodkin on 10 and Freedom on 23. ....A few minutes later I remembered Arnam Goodkin's Will Save. So I rolled it right underneath his Initiative roll (between his and Freedom's). And it took Freedom's Initiative roll for the Will Save and put the Will Save roll for Freedom's Initiative. Shenanigans! ....That's why I put Arnam Goodkin's Will Save in a separate post, to keep true to the original Initiative rolls.
But wow, did you guys know you could do that? Make a roll for Action A and then, after you roll just Edit the post and create a roll for something else, Action B. If you put Action B first it'll essentially give you a new roll for Action A! Shenanigans!
Ah well.
It does not normally change die rolls when you edit.
If you change the actual die rolling part of the post it will give you a new roll. Which makes sense.
Putting in a new roll before an existing one... is new to me. You could use it to cheat, but I guess you could do that by deleting the post with the rotten die roll then posting it again.
My fault, Azlain, I thought all you were doing in the Surprise Rd was having your mount move forward. Of course Azlain also gets his Standard or Move Action — within 180 ft of Freedom. And then you can act in Rd 1 after Freedom pounces.
@ Yaos, well now I’m sorta curious to test it to see how it works, but I think if you roll once and get a 10 — then edit the post to include two rolls, the first will be a 10 and the second will be whatever new number you get.
So when you edit you can make the 10 whichever you want by swapping the words.
.... You roll Initiative and get a 10, then remember you have to roll a Will Save. So you edit and see the second roll is a nat 1. So you edit again and type the Will Save first (which you know is a 10) and type out the Initiative second, knowing it’ll be the 1.
I’m gonna try it later to see, but I think that’s the way to cheat it. Or, more to the point, it makes it a real pain in the ass when you want to edit your post but keep the honest rolls! (I spent a good ten minutes yesterday editing trying to figure it out :(
My fault, Azlain, I thought all you were doing in the Surprise Rd was having your mount move forward. Of course Azlain also gets his Standard or Move Action — within 180 ft of Freedom. And then you can act in Rd 1 after Freedom pounces.
Thanks, I appreciate that. Might require some retconning on your part. I'm planning on taking the bear out of the fight.
It looks all good, Azlain.
Just a quick note, you cannot take a Swift Action in the Surprise Rd. Thus, you can do it in Rd 1.
Yaos is not changing her action.
Just a quick note, you cannot take a Swift Action in the Surprise Rd. Thus, you can do it in Rd 1.
I didn't know that rule. It seems to really screw over people with the arcane armor feat line (they'd end up having big penalties to spellcasting in every surprise round). Can you cite me a rules source on that?
This is what the PRD(Paizo's not the fan one) says:
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
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The only actions it list are standard or move, but it would seem silly you can't use 'quicker' actions than move as well. Ie swift or immediate.
That would mean, for example, an inquisitor couldn't activate judgement, even if it had the instant judgement feat. Thereby increasing their AC or saves, against an attack in the surprise round.
"You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action."
"You can also take free actions during the surprise round."
My understanding is that a Swift action was a kind of Free action that is limited to one per round.
So if Free actions are allowed in surprise rounds, Swift actions should be too.
"You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.""You can also take free actions during the surprise round."My understanding is that a Swift action was a kind of Free action that is limited to one per round.
So if Free actions are allowed in surprise rounds, Swift actions should be too.
This is what I was able to learn as well, from asking around. Swift actions take take the same amount of time, but use more effort, than a free action.
Thus, any time a free action is allowed, you're also allowed a swift and immediate action.
I remember going over this on the Boards five or six years ago. Mostly the consensus was that Swift Actions were different from Free Actions because they were so strong: Smite Evil, Judgement, several spells and SP. That’s Why they created a different name.
Rules folks were mostly against being able to use either a Standard or Move OR Swift Action in Surprise. Although it seems some said you ought to be able to do be able to do a Swift Action (Or Standard Or Move) in Surprise. RAW indicates you can’t.
But I agreed with the opinion there should be errata or clarification — though RAW seems to be quite clear: No Swift Actions in the Surprise Rd. It’s one of those, ‘logic-seems-to-say-you-could’ — but then when you look how cool the Swift Actions are (Smite, Judgement, etc.), And also note that rules are clear that you CAN’T trade a Move or even Standard for an *extra* Swift Action — it kinda makes sense why you can’t do a Swift Action in the Surprise Rd.
Of course, I’m always open to go again to the Rules Forum to see what folks think nowadays. ....For later in the campaign.
The reason this makes me concerned is that it seriously nerfs an already non-optimal wizard option.
The Arcane Armor feat tree is a tough sell because Quickened spells are hands down the most effective option for pretty much any spellcaster. Taking the Arcane Armor tree means a significant feat investment that comes with the extra price tag of giving up on ever using swift action spells or abilities. For most wizards that's a big deal.
Given that the Signifier prestige class was designed with Arcane Armor feats in mind, it seems like a pretty big oversight to force a big arcane spell failure chance onto one of Golarion's most feared adversaries during any ambush. (Maybe that's a feature and not a bug, but if it is it doesn't seem to be addressed in any design note or thread on the forums)
It isn't actually a problem right now because I wasn't able to afford decent armor. I managed to get my arcane spell failure down to zero on most rounds without using Arcane Armor feats. Soon I plan on upgrading, but now I don't know if it will be worth it if I suddenly have a big risk of spell fizzle in every surprise round.
It will all become a non-issue at Signifier 5, when using Arcane Armor becomes a free action, but that's three levels away and I was hoping to upgrade to actual Hellknight Plate some time before then. I guess I could wait, but until now I didn't realize I needed to.
Magnius, I don't know what your build progression is, but if you have a spare feat any time soon, you might consider taking Extra Traits and picking up Magical Knack twice.
It's a handy trick for getting your caster level up to par for multiclass spellcasters.
And I’m not sure how often Surprise Rounds will begin Combat. In my experience (with my personal DMing style), pre-Combat buffs, for a round or two, happen far more often. Ultimately, I think it’s like most balance-mechanics-in-play — it depends a TON on DM style. The cliche example is the DM that, for example, loves Undead. So the PC with Favored Enemy or Channel Energy is better than the Witch, many of whose Hexes are useless. Or the DM that only has a 15-minute day — where Wizards are better than Sorcerers cuz they never run out of spells. Whereas the DM whose PCs never get a rest, well, Wizards are less-than. ... The DM who’s stingy with treasure (The Monk is greater.), or the one who, like me, is obsessed with Knowledge Skills — but not so much with, say, traps. So much depends on DM style — in build effectiveness.
...Again, I think you’ll see many more ‘we’ve-time-for-Buffs’ moments, rather than Surprise Rounds. ....
It would seem that either, A) those Rules Forums folk were grossly misinformed, or B) since then, Paizo has officially clarified the rules:
As we said, you can take a swift action *any* time you can take a free one.
It's much more likely Paizo had made further clarifications (about Swift Actions) since that thread years ago -- and we've been gaming at our home game based on that for a long time. I can see the argument both ways. And I'll go ahead and start a new Thread in the Rules forum asking what folks think. For us now, it doesn't really matter -- but I'd like to know for the future. It's all good.
It may be up to the Bogeyman to use his AoO to prevent Arnam Goodkin from ringing that bell!
Holy Cow that was a heck of a STR check!
If y'all have Immediate Actions or can think of anything to do -- that nat 20 is crazy!
(Can those Earth Elementals attack now?)
I take it Arnham pulled hard enough to break the glue.
As to the Earth Elementals attacking, maybe. Yaos will put the Elementals as close to the Halflings down in the tunnel as possible. I don't know how far away that will put the elementals from the halflings, and that will determine if the elementals can attack. What I am trying to do is get the elementals behind the halflings, cutting off their escape. That has priority over attacking this round.
The elementals have a full round action. So they can move 20' and if that is enough to get behind the halflings, they will attack. If 20' movement won't do it, they can move up to 60', full round move. Hopefully that will be enough to get them where I want them.
I hope that clears things up Mr Initiative.
It bought us a round. That's better than nothing.
Keep stabbing him and maybe he wont be able to ring it.
Thankfully Azlain has readied an action to cast spell Dispel Magic should the glue fail.
Overly prepared is totally not a thing in this instance :)
Oh yeah!
I had totally forgotten about that!
I was freakin' out cuz Azlain had been adamant about waiting (which I argued wasn't great). My +2 STR meant I needed a frickin 18 on STR -- and when I got Shaken all the sudden I needed a nat 20.
And the dice gods answered!
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Nobody ever wants to listen to the wizard...
It usually best to listen to teh wizard! :) Especially one played by Doomed Hero!
Boogeyman, was your Twisting Fear attack your AoO? (did you catch that the halfling provoked from you?)
No, an AoO must be an attack, or any combat maneuver that can be taken in place of an attack (so, Sunder is a yes, but Grapple is a no since a grapple attempt is it's own standard action [unless you have the Grab ability]
So you can hit him, or trip him, or disarm him. Stuff like that.
(If you had Cornigon Smash you could hit him with the AoO and Demoralize as a free action)
Soooooo.... Disarm the bell?
Also, was Boogy the only one who got an AoO? Mindy was threatening the halfling as well.
Oh, Boogy, there's a rule I learned about when I played a fear-based character that I wanted to make sure you were aware of, because it surprised and annoyed me when I learned it.
You can attempt to intimidate an opponent again, but each additional check increases the DC by +5.
So basically, each time you attempt to demoralize the same target, you get a -5 to your check.
If Mendacious has flown down to the ground where Arnam Goodkin has fallen then, yes, she would get an AoO.
It looks as though you will have taken care of the bell, between a Disarm AoO or Dispel Magic on the Readied Action. Go ahead and roleplay it.
Arnam Goodkin will try in vain to reach the hole to the caverns below and Freedom will try to climb out the Spiked Pit (btw, still need falling & piercing damage), but with your efforts you should have no problem. I’m confident that even if the Halfling manages to get to the hole — that The Bogeyman is in front of — five Earth Elementals will prevent the Hunter from escaping.
Keep it up.
I forgot I'd used flyby attack. Nevermind on that AoO question.
DM Ray- harking back to your question about if the elementals I conjured could attack and my answer, could you tell me how far away the halflings underneath us are please?
Yes I know.
What I don't know is where the bunch in the tunnels below are.
I thought Mendacius scouted down there and reported so Yaos should at least have some idea. But the player playing Yaos does not have any idea.
Sorry for the confusion.
At the base of the Sycamore is a hole.
The hole descends about 15-20 feet before opening to a number of twisting, labyrinthine tunnels.
These zigzagging tunnels meander underground quite a bit before they all, separately, come back together and open to a large cavern.
The cavern is where the Bellflower Network Halflings are lairing (temporarily).
At the other end of the cavern are two other tunnels leading further into the earth.
I know there's a penalty on a Climb check when taking damage -- in addition to the entanglement. Or I think maybe it's a Ref Save to not fall down -- DC 15 +damage dealt or something. Can y'all look that up for me; it's about to be a big weekend and when I get back on Monday (or Tuesday if Monday is its typical crazy self) I'll likely have forgotten.
In any event, with the mage hand moving the 4-1/2-lb bell out of the way, Arnam Goodking is about done.
(Can those Earth Elementals attack now?)As to the Earth Elementals attacking, maybe. Yaos will put the Elementals as close to the Halflings down in the tunnel as possible. I don't know how far away that will put the elementals from the halflings, and that will determine if the elementals can attack. What I am trying to do is get the elementals behind the halflings, cutting off their escape. That has priority over attacking this round.
The elementals have a full round action. So they can move 20' and if that is enough to get behind the halflings, they will attack. If 20' movement won't do it, they can move up to 60', full round move. Hopefully that will be enough to get them where I want them.
DM Ray- Above is an edited version of a previous post I made about what the earth elementals are up. I took out the irrelevant stuff.
You are obviously an intelligent and educated person, but you seem to have a mental block regarding those elementals. Or maybe i am expressing myself badly. :(They were never going to attack Arnam or Freedom. They were conjured in the tunnels below the tree to use their earthglide to circle behind the Bellflower agents down there to cut off their escape.
They have now had 2 full turns to get into position, so if they need to move 120 feet or less from where I conjured them last round they will be in position.
Ah ha. Oops. It was a case of my browsing rather than reading your text. Completely my fault. Sorry.
The Earth Elementals are now well deep in the tunnels -- using earth-glide -- and making their way to the cavern below where they will 'plug' the two potential escape routes that descend deeper in the earth.
Excellent. sorry for holding things up in game. I didn't realise people were waiting for me.
I didn't realize people were waiting for me.
.
As often as y'all are waiting for me I wouldn't worry about not realizing you had your action yet to take.
Ray- You said in game I was still climbing. I take it that means the result of Yaos's failed climb roll was only I failed to make any progress but didn't fall?
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There’s nothing Freedom can do against you. He still has HP but you can kill him as he continues in vain to climb up the extraplanar pit.
I don’t see a reason to stay in Initiative. Create some nice flavor-text to finish off the bear and then,....
Dimension Door down to the cavern wherein hide the Bellflower Network Halflings and take ‘em out before those Earth Elementals run out of Duration.
And dinner is served!
If y’all are ready to poof down to the cavern below to ambush the remaining Bellflower Network Halflings, go for it.
Waiting a day to get back your consumables means having to track them as they leave tonight to rendezvous with their Wizard, Avalia Greenheart. (Remember that when the Investigator Aaron Smallbridge arrived to warn them of potential trouble (and you followed his trail), they decided they would leave at nightfall — which is in another couple hours. They sent their Hunter, Arnam Goodkin, to Guard the hole at the base of the sycamore and are waiting for darkness to leave.
Jump them now and they don’t have their Wizard.
I believe the plan was to Dimension Door Into the cavern below to avoid squeezing through the twisting tunnels under the sycamore to get to the cavern.
Everybody still here??
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I am now, finally.
Indeed. And we are awaiting you to agree or not to a course of action Yaos proposed Magnius.
Let us hope the gods of the internet and Paizo allow us to proceed.