| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Right so, I had this conundrum ever since we got the ENWorld previews, and I thought the wording in the playtest CRB would help, but it hasn't.
So, the Shield Block reaction states:
"You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken. See the Item Damage section on page 175 for rules on dented and broken items."
And then, Page 175 states:
"An item can be destroyed if it takes damage enough times. An item reduces any damage dealt to it by its Hardness. The Hardness of various materials is explained in the Materials section on page 354. If an item takes damage equal to or exceeding the item’s Hardness, the item takes a Dent. If the item takes damage equal to or greater than twice its Hardness in one hit, it takes 2 Dents. For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents. A typical item can take only 1 Dent without becoming broken. A second Dent causes it to become broken, though it can still be repaired. An item that would take a Dent or become broken while already broken is destroyed beyond salvage. Some magical or especially sturdy items can take more than 1 Dent before becoming broken, as noted in their descriptions."
This is also pretty clear, but the problem I have comes from the combination of both sections.
Lets say I have a Light Wooden Shield, which is Hardness 3. I get hit by an attack that does 15 damage. What happens?
Per Shield Block, the Shield would block 3 Damage, because that's the Hardness, and it can't block more than that. But then it also says:
"[...]-up to the shield’s Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly becoming dented or broken."
But...if an object reduces all damage taken by it's Hardness, how is the shield ever getting dented?
I get hit for 15. I block. The shield takes 3 Damage, which Hardness reduces to 0 damage. I myself would take the remaining 12, is that not correct?
Is the damage the shield takes not supposed to be reduced by Hardness?
Is the shield supposed to suffer the remaining 12 damage as well? And then I too take 12 damage?
I feel this could use some serious revision, but maybe I just can't wrap my head around it. Opinions?
Oh man. I'm getting flashbacks to Alpha Omega when I detonated several kilos of C4 a meter underground (in a chasm/fissure).
I haven't looked at PF2's rules on shields (other than "you block, shield takes damage") but dang its sounding so familiar to how explosives (specifically Armor Penetration) and structures worked.
One possible outcome (reading the rules as written) is that the rock took no damage (because its Hardness was reduced to 0 from the Armor Penetration, meaning it couldn't take any of the damage to its structure) and survived, but the character on the other side took the full blast (possibly with extra armor from the thickness of the rock).
At least PF2 doesn't have the "ignore hardness" rule.
Weapons made from adamantine treat any object they
hit as if it had half as much Hardness as usual
...carp
Oh man. I'm getting flashbacks to Alpha Omega when I detonated several kilos of C4 a meter underground (in a chasm/fissure).
I haven't looked at PF2's rules on shields (other than "you block, shield takes damage") but dang its sounding so familiar to how explosives (specifically Armor Penetration) and structures worked.
One possible outcome (reading the rules as written) is that the rock took no damage (because its Hardness was reduced to 0 from the Armor Penetration, meaning it couldn't take any of the damage to its structure) and survived, but the character on the other side took the full blast (possibly with extra armor from the thickness of the rock).
At least PF2 doesn't have the "ignore hardness" rule.
...carpWeapons made from adamantine treat any object they
hit as if it had half as much Hardness as usual
Yeah I haven't even touched Adamantine yet, but it's an issue too, especially when calculating how much damage it takes to dent, since I don't know whether you should use the halved value or the full value...
But that's relatively simple compared to untangling the Shield Block rules.
This wouldn't be a problem if I was just attacking a shield hanging on a wall, but from the wording of Shield Block I'm assuming some damage would go to the wielder which makes it a nightmare to figure out what happens to the shield.
If the shield only blocks up to it's Hardness (taking that damage), but objects also reduce all damage by it's Hardness (because the rules say so), then the shield never takes damage and never gets dented. But Shield Block implies this can happen, and I can't see why with the RAW.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It is really simple.
Let’s take a large steel shield for example:
Fighter gets hit, shield is raised, fighter decides to block, damage is rolled.
Damage result is 8 points.
Fighter takes 3 points of damage. Shield takes 5 damage and so its first dent. When it receives its second dent it becomes broken, every other dent will destroy it.
The wooden shield in your example would have blocked 3 damage and then been vaporised by the blow because it received 15 damage. That equaled 5 dents...3 would have been enough.
An object reduces all damage by it's Hardness though. Per RAW. So if you have a Heavy Steel Shield and get hit for 8 Damage:
Shield is Hardness 5, so it can block up to 5 Damage. It does so.
3 Damage goes to the Fighter, 5 goes to the shield.
Shield suffers 5 damage. It's Hardness 5. 5-5=0. Shield takes no damage, and is never dented.
Light Wooden shield and 15 damage, same thing:
Shield is Hardness 3, so it can block up to 3 damage. It does so.
12 damage goes to the fighter, 3 goes to the shield.
Shield suffers 3 Damage. It's Hardness 3. 3-3=0. Shield takes no damage, and is never dented.
The rules on damaging objects even sort of confirm this, whent hey say:
"For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents."
The only way for 10 damage on Hardness 3 to do 2 Dents, and not 3, is if we use the shield's Hardness to reduce that 10 damage to 7.
But in a Shield Block, the damage exceeding Hardness doesn't go into the Shield, it goes into the Fighter, per the Shield Block reaction.
So by RAW a shield will never get dented, unless there's wording missing somewhere, because Shield Block never says the damage the Shield is taking for the fighter ignores the shield's Hardness. And since the Shield can only block up to it's Hardness....it'll never take damage exceeding it, and thus can't be dented.
I think the shield takes (8 damage - 5 hardness) = 3 damage. Since it is lower than the harness, it takes no dents. Had the attack dealt 10 damage instead, you and the shield would both take 5 damage, and the shield would receive 1 dent.
That could very well be true, but a reading of the Shield Block reaction makes it ambiguous. If there was wording saying the remaining damage after Hardness is applied to both Shield and Fighter then it'd make sense (though it'd make shields incredibly fragile), but the wording isn't there and Shield Block implies the only damage the shield takes is up to it's hardness:
"Your shield prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the shield’s Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead"
So it's just confusing all around.
uhhhh...
Now I am really confused.
Developers please take notice!
Developers please take notice!
Where's our FAQ button? :P
As I said before do not take it by the book. You are definitely right with the wording. The shield would never get dented.
The intention is different and the wording has to be changed. Paladinosaurs Version is the most logic.
I mean, I can, but this a playtest. I'm not asking "How do I fix this?" I'm saying "This doesn't work at all as written and should be changed as soon as possible. And if it is supposed to work like this, how does it actually work?"
Unfortunately there's no FAQ button, for some reason, so I guess I'll just wait for a survey.
I can think of a few good reasons to not have an FAQ button. Not clogging the faq system for other games. And that the devs are hopefully looking at all of these threads already without the need to draw their attention.
When everything is faqed, nothing is.
I can think of a few good reasons to not have an FAQ button. Not clogging the faq system for other games. And that the devs are hopefully looking at all of these threads already without the need to draw their attention.
I was being rhetorical.
Looks like a wording mistake for me: limiting damage with hardness makes shields undestructable, which makes little sense.
This is one of those sections where a sidebar example thing would be great.
They should have kept 3.5e mechanics here for object damage.
I.E. wooden shield. hardness 5, HP 10
IF you block attack with a shield you suffer no damage.
Shield suffers whole damage.
The shield block mechanic seems a fine addition to the game. All that is missing is the clarification that the shield takes the damage directly, and it is NOT reduced by the hardness (the hardness already came into play in reducing YOUR damage). I agree it needs to be clarified, because you are right, as written, the shield would never get dented.
The other problem I've found comes later. So if we do agree that the shield DOES take it's hardness worth of damage on a Shield Block, than any time it does so, it takes a Dent (only ever 1 dent). 1st Dent, and it's good to go. 2nd Dent and it's broken. Once broken, it no longer works (Broken, pg 175), so it can't be raised again, and can't be used for a 3rd Shield Block. This means it will never take that 3rd Dent, and thus never get Destroyed. Time to drop it to get rid of that Check Penalty, and retrieve it later when you can repair it.
A shield CAN block attacks less than it's hardness all day long and never get Dented though, so that's cool, especially when you look at Mithral and Adamantine shields with considerable higher hardness (up to 21 for Legendary Heavy Adamantine Sturdy Shield).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If we assume that specific overrules general then it makes sense. Plus it seems to be what is intended. Although it could be clearer I agree:
For example: assume 8 points of damage to a steel shield (hardness 6) via a Shield Block action:
6 points go to the shield. "The shield takes this damage instead possibly becoming dented". p309
On p175 Item damage: "If an item takes damage equal to its hardness it takes a Dent."
So, since the shield took 6 points of damage, equal to its hardness, it gets one Dent.
Meanwhile whoever was holding the shield takes the remaining 2 points of damage.
It's worth noting that one way to get shield hardness up is with item quality. Based on the chart on p. 190:
- Heavy steel shield: hardness 5 (p.177: Shields)
- Expert heavy steel shield: hardness 6
- Master heavy steel shield: hardness 8
- Legendary heavy steel shield: hardness 11
- Master heavy adamantine shield: hardness 14 (p.354, Special materials)
- Legendary heavy adamantine shield: hardness 17
The last two assume that a shield counts as a regular 'item' when it comes to calculating their hardness. Which it probably isn't, because of this item:
INDESTRUCTIBLE SHIELD
ITEM 18 Abjuration Price 23,000 gp
Magical Method of Use held, 1 hand; Bulk 1
An indestructible shield is a legendary heavy adamantine shield (Hardness 13) that can’t be dented or broken.
What i want to know is if there's a way to add the capacity to absorb more Dents to an item? A shield specifically.
On p175 Item damage: "If an item takes damage equal to its hardness it takes a Dent."
So, since the shield took 6 points of damage, equal to its hardness, it gets one Dent.
I agree with most of what you said, but this is actually contradicted later on in the paragraph:
"For instance, a wooden shield (Hardness 3) that takes 10 damage would take 2 Dents"
That tells us that, despite bad wording, it should be damage equal to it's Hardness after we've already factored in Hardness. Otherwise, the example listed would take 3 dents, not 2.
For a Light Shield with Hardness 3 to only take 2 dents from 10 damage, it has to be first reduced by Hardness to 7.
And AFAIK there's no way to add more Dents to an item. It's 2 max and then completely obliterated.
You're right.
I guess that implies that when you block with a shield it blocks all the incoming damage of that attack? And the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not the shield survives the experience.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You're right.
I guess that implies that when you block with a shield it blocks all the incoming damage of that attack? And the only thing that remains to be seen is whether or not the shield survives the experience.
I've honestly no idea, hence why I started this thread. I think the idea is for the Shield and the Fighter to take the same damage, post Hardness.
So you got Heavy Steel (Hardness 5) and you get hit for 10. You Shield Block. Shield reduces damage by 5. Then both Shield and Fighter take 5 Damage (which is enough to Dent the shield).
That's what makes the most sense, I think, but the wording is a mess and could use a lot of revision. Or at least, a sidebar with an example.
A sidebar with several examples!
Both taking the damage is... weird, or at least very different. If that was the mechanic i'd expect it to be clearly stated somewhere that both the shield and wielder take the spill-over damage. Which they don't. Which makes me feel it's not that way.
We shall find out soon enough no doubt.
The other confusing aspect of all this, is that there is no way for an item to get damaged besides the shield block. There is no Sunder or Break action that I could find.
how is this not clear I don't understand why people are having the issue with this?
shields have a hardness which reduces incoming damage - check
once the damage is reduced to the remaining damage if it is equal to or greater then the hardness becomes a dent. Which if it is double the hardness in value then its two dents?
1st dent has no effect
2nd dent the shield becomes broken
3rd dent the shield is destroyed
Here is an easy way of looking at it
A wooden shield has a hardness of 3, so all incoming damage is reduced by 3 points.
Incoming damage is 10, which blocked by a wooden shield becomes 7 due to the hardness, the remaining damage is absorbed by the shield since the hardness of the shield is 3 and 3 goes into 7 only two times that means it takes two dents. if the damage was two points higher per the rules it would still only take two dents from one hit. Now if this amount of damage was dealt a second time it would destroy the shield. Even if the damage was 6 points instead of 10 it would destroy the shield because hardness reduces 6 to 3 and the shield takes a dent per 3 points of remaining damage.
you never take damage because of one line in the wording -
"—the shield takes this damage instead,"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Errr, you do take damage (not sure if that's what you meant by your post):
In the Shields section of Equipment:
While you have a shield raised, you can use the Shield
Block reaction to reduce damage you take by the shield’s
HardnessIn the Spells in Shield Block:
You snap your shield in place to ward off a blow. Your shield
prevents you from taking an amount of damage up to the
shield’s Hardness—the shield takes this damage instead, possibly
becoming dented or broken. See the Item Damage section on
page 175 for rules on dented and broken items.So you do take damage - whatever is excess to the shield's hardness, as the quote you gave is referring to the damage blocked by the hardness, not the total damage.
Ok, I stand corrected. Per the new system, shields are just a tempory DR mechanic. I see what you're talking about now. my bad...
Rahod i suspect your reading of the rules is right, and the Shield Block description in the book is misleading. At least that's my hunch, but we'll need to get clarification from paizo.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I see no conclusion here. Is there any final clarification from Paizo already?
How often is damage greater than or equal to hardness?Always.
Or nearly, if you're above about 12th level and using level appropriate gear.