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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber. Organized Play Member. 426 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.


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In my last week's game, the party saved, what they discovered as being a young Osiron Prince. The prince and his guardian were being hunted by a Gnoll mercenary party. The prince's guardian was killed in the battle, and the prince honestly doesn't know what was expected of him, or where he was going to be protected from his evil regent uncle.

Fortunately, for game purposes, the players have latched on to taking the prince under their protection, and getting him to his throne in the next year's time.

The party is in Andoran, and just entered the city of Agustana, where the Caravan master dismissed the rest of the caravan, since he was taking hardwoods and wines to Absolom, so the characters are released from his service.

While I had a great idea that a teen prince, who no longer had the watchful eye of his guardian no longer on him would get into some sort of mischief in a strange city, I have ran into a mental block of what would be a good session of what to involve the players in. The chracters are a rogue, wizard, cleric, and ranger, who just recently made second level.

Ideas would be welcome!


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I don't see any balance issues with sorcerers casting a high level slot using a lower spell slot, with lower level results.


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Here is a question to expand the idea of crafting-

Where Crafting starts at a person having to spend half the money for the components of the creation, is it reasonable to use other skills to build up those components?

For example, using Nature or Survival to get the materials for arrows, and then crafting the arrows, at effectively 0 coin cost. I'd probably make the arrows -1 damage because they don't have metal arrow heads, but a character can survive making bows and arrows in the wilderness now.

On the other hand, that doesn't work for trying to make a sword, since you would probably have to do a whole lot more processing of materials, such as mine and smelt iron. In a survival situation, you'd have to have a source of iron, probably use Lore (mining) to get the ore and smelt it in a forge that was created.


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Would be nice if Paizo would make a public statement on how it is supposed to work.

I actually brought this stuff up during playtest, and it never got handled.


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So...

Question becomes, can you use Quick Alchemy to poison a Hobgoblin's stew pot, or does the poison evaporate by the beginning of your next round?

By the same token, If you quick alchemy a sunrod, can you use it for it's own duration, or is it 'poof' after a few moments?


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Yes, whatever logic the designers had for this rule is weird.


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A nice house rule would be: your 6hp ancestries grant +1hp [per level after the first, 8hp grants +2 per level, and the 10hp ancestries grant +3 hp per level.

Just throwing that out there for conversation purposes.


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I'm having a hard time justifying the anti-stacking for poisons.

From what I can get out of it:
Let us say you get hit by Giant Centipede venom-
It has a maximum duration of 6 rounds. If you get hit by another dose of this venom at or near the end of its duration, I would expect it to restart the duration over. Except, that it specifically states in the rules (p458 under Multiple Exposures) that it's the old duration that counts. The only effect of the new dosage is a single initial saving throw that may increase the stage, assuming that the stage isn't already at max value.

For poison to make sense, I'd rather have the new effect restart the maximum duration.


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I was just wondering about this!! Awesome!


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


I'm so happy you can make a complete judgment on what I find worthy or unworthy Karnak. Because I'd rather play with someone who takes agency and the reigns of the game in hand has no bearing on whether I find some one worthy to play with me. What does that even mean, worthy to play with? Good conversation derail, though. Why would you even want to play a game without knowing the rules? I wouldn't even want to play Battleship without knowing the rules.

You /litterally/ stated-

Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

"Glad I don't play with them."

How is anyone supposed to take your statement other then you wouldn't want to play with anyone who hasn't read every rule in the Core book before playing?

Rather then scaring a person off by handing them the Core Rule Book and saying, "Here, read this before you get into my game.", the equivalent to a college text book, wouldn't it be better to give them a much smaller book and say, "Follow the steps here, and you can make a character to play in my game. We will get into how to play when you are at my table."?

(What are you talking about 'Karnak'?)


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


Wow!!! I didn't realise so many players would so adversely affect their own agency in game. Glad I don't play with them.

They aren't bad players, just more casual then you are seemingly willing to give a chance to play. They don't care about making every little detail the optimal damage/effect per round. They just want to hang out.

In fact, it is more likely that it is the 'GM' that will buy one or two of the books so that their Core Rules isn't the bottleneck of chargen. I actually do that in my games. I'm the one who buys, at least the initial, books. Usually two of the main rules. I'm the one who reads the rules, and helps the others learn them as we play.

I sort of know the type of players who would need this sort of book to get off the ground in gaming. You seem to be under the impression that any person who is unwilling to read 300+ pages of rules is unworthy to game at your table.


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dirtypool wrote:

If it’s for people who don’t want to read the rules, why would they buy a rulebook in the first place/why should Paizo make a book for them?

They might read the rules just enough to make a character, but not the rules on how to play the character with the game mechanics. In fact they might need help in making a character. Having just enough rules to make a character is this balance point of a 'Strategy Guide' which step by step shows the player how to make the character is all this sort of information this style of player wants.


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Tristan d'Ambrosius wrote:


To play pathfinder sure but PF2? If all I'm going on is pathfinder and character creation rules and concise rundown of the three modes of play, rather than the actual rules, I'm going to try to take an attack of opportunity when someone moves out of a threatened square. If PF2 holds true to playtest not everyone can do that. How's a transitioning player to know that with their creation rules and concise rundown of three modes of play, not ruleset? Relying on 3.5 and Pathfinder knowledge tripped up every player I playtested with, more than once. How did we correct that? By looking up the rules. Rules that would not be thoroughly provided in character creation rules and concise run down of the three modes of play which you said is all transitioning players would need.

A handbook for players is for players who don't even want to read the rules for play. I don't think I've ever been at a game where at least one or two of the players don't even want to read the rules. They just want to play, and trust the other players to tell them how the game is played.


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Maybe this is a better idea: A paperback or PDF of each class, including, a character or two already completed, and probably a character sheet devoted to the needs of that class?

This way it is small. It could be bundeled up later. It is an expandable supplement when new splat books come out. A set of them can be distributed among the table when chargen is being done.

Another marketing ploy would be to add a (short) solo adventure dedicated to that class, if pages permit.


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I'm looking at 'The Strategy Guide' as being an extremely slimmed down version of the Core book, that only has the material needed to create characters. Something that would allow the table to have Two or Three of them for the cost of a single Core book.

Yes, I can see a smaller book being created for each new class/race book.


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I recommend that Paizo should do a character generation book earlier then the last edition. 640 pages for a player is a bit much to digest.

A book that has only what a player needs to create their character would be a very nice option.

Heck! I wouldn't mind taking on the effort to build such a book, if the Paizo gods are willing.


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You are correct. There is no real reason why 'short rests' to recover Stamina have to be tied to any sort of resource. A ten minute break could recover Stamina without resorting to a point system depletion.


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Just about ready to cut my Pathfinder AP subscription. They can't possibly have any new interesting APs coming out..

Crap.. they just got another 6 months worth of money..


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Dire Ursus wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:

Ah. You work your narrative backwards from the way I do.

“I cast disintegrate” he avoids most of the effects then most mear mortals have ever been known to do

“I kick him” His fatigue catches up with him. He is slow in pulling his leg back, and you hear a pop from his ankle and a cry out.

This is probably one of the only problems I do have with stamina. The disintegrate spell is such a good example too. You watched the guy get hit by it. You've seen this spell destroy solid stone. But the guy isn't even scathed after getting directly hit? And everyone can do this if they just have enough HP? It's a bit ridiculous.

Yes, but the hp system by itself is worse. The disintegrate doesn’t do any noticeable damage, but the cleric heals him of... no damage.. just because.


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Rysky wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:


I actually really prefer the stamina rules, and can not see any real complexity in adding them to pathfinder. I like that it shows the line between negligible wear and tear during combat, and where you are being worn down to no longer avoiding more serious injuries that need medical attention.

*nods*

And I dislike it since it doesn't accomplish that (to me anyway), you have two HP pools that are forced to flavor two different ways (minor vs major damage) but that tends to fall though.

"I cast disintegrate."
"You winded him."
"I kick him in the shin."
"You have grievously wounded him."

Ah. You work your narrative backwards from the way I do.

“I cast disintegrate” he avoids most of the effects then most mear mortals have ever been known to do

“I kick him” His fatigue catches up with him. He is slow in pulling his leg back, and you hear a pop from his ankle and a cry out.


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Rysky wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:

Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.

So would you be more favorable to HP + Treat Wounds if it was a flat amount restored?

And I'm not seeing much of a difference between having 30 HP and taking 20 points of damage and healing it as opposed to having 15 HP1 and 15 HP2 and taking 20 points of damage and healing both pools, other than needless complexity.

I actually really prefer the stamina rules, and can not see any real complexity in adding them to pathfinder. I like that it shows the line between negligible wear and tear during combat, and where you are being worn down to no longer avoiding more serious injuries that need medical attention.


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Rysky wrote:
Dracomicron wrote:
It's fine if a GM wants to house rule that healing works on Stamina, but, frankly, we're better off just getting out of the psychological mindset that every little boo-boo needs to get healed over.
Stamina doesn't alleviate that though.

Stamina fixes about 80% of the HP problems though. Rather then having a cleric top off everyone who got nicked up in the last combat, and rolling several sets of dice to do it, PCs can do most of that by taking a breather. Potions or spells would only be needed if a character was getting whacked hard.


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Rysky wrote:


If NPCs have increased Health pools to match PCs' Health+Stamina pools and they can heal their HP by both Health and Stamina recovering abilities why have them be separate pools requiring separate healing abilities for PCs?

Because, on average, you don't _require_ a dedicated healer in a party with the Stamina rules. Between combats, and a short rest, you can heal about half your health points without the need for magic. You can have a party of a Fighter, Thief, Bard and Wizard, when no one at the table wants to play a heal-bot.

It's far more cinematic. How often in movies do you see a cleric healing the adventurers between engagements? Maybe once in _all_ the live D&D movies? The D&D cartoons didn't even have a cleric in the party. Other Fantasy don't use healing-magic between combats, unless it is an actual death-level set of wounds. Nicks and scratches, bah.. Next!


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So Liquid leap-
"Liquid Leap (concentrate, conjuration, teleportation) The slime
demon transports itself from its current space to any clear
space within range that it can see, as long as both spaces are
within a liquid."

What it doesn't give is, "What is the Range?"


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3rd Party Elements of Magic is also a good one.

The caster learns how to do certain magic effects, and is a point build system for spells along with mana. Your character keeps a number of specific spells memorized, and can cast from them with Spell Points.


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How many people like the Earth Dawn system of spell casting?

The caster has a number of Matrix that he can put ready spells in, that are not quite easy to change out. Out of combat it is simple, trying to change it in combat is a bit more difficult.

Spells in a Matrix cost a pool of points based on the spell. In Earth Dawn, it was fatigue, a universal pool that included non-critical damage (Starfinder Stamina), talent costs and things like sprinting.


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WatersLethe wrote:


It's okay if there are rules that players don't have to think about until higher level. It makes it easier to start out with.

If the Resonance ceiling was dropped down and varied with level, Resonance would instantly rise once more to the top of my problem list and I'd have to start campaigning against it again.

5 + 1/3Level?


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I think Re-gripping shouldn't take a full Action, but a Reaction would work very well, within the useful rules.


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Resonance, being something of a cap at the number of permanent magic items, used for their magical purposes each day is a good thing. I'd include Magic armor and swords in this. A magic sword without resonance, just a legendary craftsmanship (+3 to hit). With Resonance? You get that glowing flavor and wacking stuff with +5 dice of damage. Though is it just me, or is the current Magic armor sort of meh, now that armor class is tied to Level? We need to give Magic Armor more benefit, like Physical DR based on it's Bonus.

I'm seeing Focus should be a flat number, like 3 as a base. Use feats to increase that number, whether they be class or general. I'm seeing a better use for focus though, as something related to a maximize effect. You Hit with a weapon or spell? Either do maximum damage for your strike, or turn a hit into a critical, using a focus.

Another Focus effect would be using an action to Resonate with a just picked up item. That tends to be a heroic thing to do.

Heck, we could combine Hero points effects into Focus, for one less pool. Yes, you put all your might into criting the big bad guy, but no longer have any Focus to recover from that arrow now in your back that dropped you into Death 1. Another level of heroism, Sacrifice.


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The Raven Black wrote:


I do not know Dresden, but this reminded me A LOT of John Constantine. Maybe he took Inept at Diplomacy :-D

Houserule : Inept is something like Untrained but worse because no full level to the roll ;-)

You need to read the Dresden Files, not watch the TV series. Harry Dresden is a wizard in Chigago, the only one listed in the yellow pages, who is a Private Investigator. He is charismatic enough that people will go on the line for him, but he makes lots of bad decisions which gives drama.

BTW, Dresden Files is a RPG, based on the Fate System, which does reward bad choices, because it's what your character would do, or get involved with.


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Bruntfca wrote:

Don't some Powers allow casters to already cast 2 spells per turn? For example:

Sorcerer Imperial: Metamagicians Shortcut (Power 3)

It's a bloodline power so will use Focus Points.

"When you cast this spell, choose a metamagic feat you have.
The next time you trigger that feat, you don’t need to add a
Somatic Casting action to the spell you cast."

(Note Metamagicians shortcut can be pre-cast up to an hour before you need it.)

So I pick heighten spell Metamagic Feat. The spell I choose to lose it's somatic component is Flaming Sphere.

My flaming spear now only takes 1 action to cast. This means I can now cast a *second* flaming sphere in the same round. In following rounds I now have 2 sphere's I can concentrate on and still shoot my bow. If I take the viscious concentration feat I can even boost the sphere's damage by more each time I concentrate on them.

This is just one combo I found, I think Wizards can do something similar.

That's not quite correct. What this does is it removes the component from the meta-feat. It doesn't remove the component from the spell. So a spell that requires two actions, still takes two actions. It just no longer takes 'three' actions to add the meta-feat, instead it remains at two.


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I'm on the Mirrored Moon adventure, and between games, but I'm foreseeing an action between the dragon and the party.

The party is on it's way to the red dragon lair, and the Dragon is going to fly over them on the way to do the cyclopses damage, again. Seeing as the party looks to be a light snack, the dragon is likely going to take damage before wing over and returning home.

The characters will take a few days to get there, I'm just wondering what sort of healing rate a dragon, or any monster, would have between bouts? While we can assume the dragon has access to magical healing, in the form of items or what, I would like to find out what they might do otherwise to heal. Are we just talking healing checks via skill?


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Yea, I didn't even consider how #1 would affect poisons.


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So, what happens if you use Quick Alchemy to create and then activate a sunrod? Does it continue it's duration, or go out at the beginning of the Alchemist's next turn?


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I'm leaning towards allowing a player to use their reaction to change grips.


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A longer duration is sort of what I'm also getting. There doesn't seem to be any sense to artificially limit it, when you are only getting a single round duration anyhow.


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LordVanya wrote:

The DC issue aside...

From my point of view, except for the critical failure and not being able to use it in combat, there is very little difference between Treat Wounds and spamming CLW wands.

The flimsy economic limiter is gone, and a competent GM can interrupt the 1e group using the CLW wands just as easily.

I've already even heard at least one GM mention that their group just sat there for an hour and topped off everyone's HP between each battle.

This is exactly what I'm seeing. They wanted to fix the healing issue, by /limiting/ it per day, via resonance. They turned the problem on it's head by being too extreme, and then re-flipping it to exacerbate the original problem.

I prefer a Stamina system related to Starfinder. That is more heroic, less die rolling, and gets the party up and on their feet in less potentially then a minute (playtime). Half your character class HP+ConB being stamina, the rest being HP.


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Turkina_B wrote:
brad2411 wrote:

How long does it last? It gives not duration. Does it last for the whole battle after used or just the next strike?

Edit: It is on pg. 76 under 8th level feats

As it is an action and says "once per round", I would surmise it only last for one round until the beginning of your next turn.

Another terrible option then. PF2 still needs a lot of work. :p


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Yea, I just came by to ask the same question.

I would almost think it only lasts a round based on the once per round.. But then, its pretty gimped with a +1d6 alignment damage using an action each round, considering it is an 8th level feat.

I'm thinking that it would, based on other 'spell' effects that do similar effects, it would last a minute. This would at least make it more useful then an action drain each turn.

Any developers want to clear up the wording?


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Fumarole wrote:
I'd be curious to know how many GMs took advantage of Ilvoresh's fly speed. The ceilings are quite high at 15', even higher for the Receiving Room (20') and Library (not specified, but given that the second-floor balcony is accessible I'd rule at least 30'). That should enable Ilvoresh to cast spells far more easily.

The receiving room is 30'. First and second story at 15' each. The chandelier was 20' I believe.


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Do bombs still have resonance cost to use, since the update?


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The Once and Future Kai wrote:

There's that word...NEVER. Nope. So no healing spells, items, or rituals used by any of the party members in Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of the Kencyrath, Wheel of Time, Sword of Truth, Discworld, Eragon, etc, etc.

Folks would do better at making a point if instead of absolutely denying the "opposition" they focused on the positives of their own position. There's a strong narrative argument for healing being rare or uncommon, but instead of talking about that...let's claim that there's NEVER a supernatural healer in an adventuring party in non-D&D inspired literature.

Ah! but those are not the same things as D&D/Pathfinder HP. You don't see the party healing up nicks and bruises with supernatural means, do you? Instead the healing is based on "near death" or "critical injuries", which are nearly a part of "near death", or things like ineffective limbs, where the healing did something remarkable.


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Zwordsman wrote:

Which aren't really that hard to draw honestly.

I really can't see the act of drawing the lawn dart (if you're from the 90s) to be functionally harder than pulling an arrow from quiver and knocking it properly. Time or effort wise.

I would, though point out, that even the blow gun has a reload. which should be far easier than either of the above examples. (granted it also can't really get more damage in any method other than poison I know of. even magic)

I do get that its a mechanical thing. They want bows to be superior (what with martial) so they impose difficulty I suppose.

it does hurt though, with the way quick draw works in this edition (and that it is restricted)

They are probably a bit harder to draw then you give them credit for. A dagger lies flat against you. A (war) dart has fins that are not as easily stowed on your person, which requires more effort to stow, and more to pull out of that storage.


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I'm still under the impression that the Stamina system is more thematic, and better for the game, then adding different ways of healing HP.


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Ascalaphus wrote:


* You have a pool of hero points (gotta find a better acronym than HP though...)

Fortune Points?


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I'm at a loss at how people think a stamina system is somehow 'non-thematic' for Fantasy. When you look at Fantasy fiction, unless it is specific to D&D/Pathfinder game to novel, you never.. NEVER.. see clerics healing up the adventuring party. It is more true to say that using mechanical, heal skills or spells and wands is actually the non-thematic chain of events to get the party going between one action set to the next.


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Dasrak wrote:
Shain Edge wrote:
Wouldn't you Use the 2 action version of Magic Missile? Since True Strike costs an action on top of the attack you are buffing?
Because 1-action magic missile plus an attack deals more damage on average than 2-action magical missile, so that's the better comparison.

Yea but True Strike takes an action, and does no damage. That's why I'm thinking you need to apply it as a 2 action Magic Missile attack, vs the True Strike + Strike.


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Dead Phoenix wrote:


Hyperspecialized would also include 'Assurance', so you don't have to roll. Once you get skill to master, you are effectively auto-rolling a 20 + skill each time.
Incorrect. Assurance at matter level gives you a flat 20 to your check. Your skill bonuses do not apply, which by the time you are high enough to have matter in a skill, the DC is probably too high for a 20 to pass. Maybe a few levels at best...

Gah.. OK.. need to rebuild my character.


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Dasrak wrote:


I'm not convinced it is broken in every case, or even most cases. There certainly are some spells that would be a bit much if given free heightening, but others that would perfectly fine.

Let's consider a 1-action magic missile versus a true strike (for a move-cast-attack turn). For the purposes of this comparison, I'll presume a 5th level wizard with a +1 longsword using magical striker attacking AC 20

To hit = +11 (5 + 4 str + 2 potency)
With true strike this gives a 19% chance to crit and 75% chance to hit for 113% baseline damage
Without true strike this gives 10% chance to crit and 50% chance to hit for 70% baseline damage

Damage = 3d8+4 (avg 17.5)
This is 19.775 average with true strike, 12.25 without, for an increase in your expected damage of 7.5

A heightened 1 action magic missile deals 2d4+2 damage for an average of about 7 damage, almost exactly the same as what true strike is doing. This suggests that auto-heightening magic missile is roughly balanced with true strike. I haven't done the math at every level, but I suspect they stay roughly in a similar range of values since magic missile's heightening schedule is very similar to the potency improvement schedule.

Of course there are other interpretations here; you could very well argue that magic missile is underpowered in terms of its heightening effect (which is true; no one is investing a higher level slot on something that weak), or that true strike is an overpowered spell (also true; no other 1st level spell is anywhere nearly as good as it is). Personally I'm of the opinion that true strike is the only 1st level spell that's about right currently, and everything else needs to be brought up to its level. Making magic missile auto-scale would be a perfect fix for that spell.

Wouldn't you Use the 2 action version of Magic Missile? Since True Strike costs an action on top of the attack you are buffing?


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ENHenry wrote:
Rameth wrote:

While Critical Successes will shorten that time even healing a 10 Con Character to max will still take 30 minutes if you get 3 Critical Successes in a row.

Also, you may have figured this in, but to call it out, it's not automatic, even someone hyperspecialized will fail 1 out of 3 attempts, which makes it a bit longer.

Personally, I'm fine with it, because it's cheap healing, but still has a cost: Time. If you're not in a time crunch, just figure an average healing rate given percentage of success, and say, "after x Hours, the group is patched up."

Hyperspecialized would also include 'Assurance', so you don't have to roll. Once you get skill to master, you are effectively auto-rolling a 20 + skill each time.

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