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I can only say for me that the General Feats system of 3.Pathfinder was one of the biggest hurdles I faced when creating my first characters. There are so, so, many, and so, so, many of them were completely irrelevant to my character concepts. Of course I didn't know that so I was poring over this absolutely gigantic list and reading them to figure out what they did, what their pre-requisites were etc. just to see if they were relevant to my Level 1 Ninja or Gunslinger.
Of course *now* I know the five feats Gunslingers must take in their earlier levels to be effective, and I *now* know that I can ignore the Metamagic feat section when working on a Ninja build but that's after years of experience and deep reading of build guides.
A shorter list of specific feats sounds like an absolute godsend by comparison. The proof is in the execution of course, but, man it sounds way way easier.
Plus based off the Pathfinder design of Alchemist Discoveries, Arcanist Exploits, Investigator Talents etc. I am very confident that the class feats Paizo designs will be just as fun as those are. They really are the same thing, just with a standardized name, and all classes get to join in the fun!
One of my most favorite characters was an Investigator that went absolutely bonkers on the Inspiration Talents of the class. By the end of the game I was rolling 2d8s and taking the best roll for free as a bonus to practically every damn roll I was making! It was glorious!
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I think it'll be less daunting, but that depends on just how many feats there are. There are many more types of feats, but because you don't choose from the same pool, it's easier to make each individual choice. And they've said that they're trying to do away with feat trees and only use feat prerequisites when feats modify other feats, so I think it'll wind up with less accounting of "Ok, I want to have [X feat] by level Y, but since it requires Feats Z, W and A, and Feat A can only be taken at level B+ I need to take these feats in this order" which will mean you only really need to worry about what feats you want when you select the feat for the specific level.
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I'm not sure I understand the first part. Care to elaborate?
Sure. Class Feats are very different from Skill Feats, which are very different from Ancestry Feats which are very different from General Feats.
Picking something from the same list every level would be boring. Picking different stuff every level from the one previous keeps things fresh. Especially since there's a new list of Class Feats to choose from every new level you get them.
As for the second, I can't really say I've seen anything that looks demonstrably easier than it was in PF1 and quite a few seem like they'll be more involved.
Leveling leaps immediately to mind. You just add one to everything and pick Feats, plus maybe Abilities. No deciding where 8 skill ranks go every level, no worrying about whether BAB goes up this level or what Saves go up. It's much simpler.
Action economy is also much, much, simpler.
That said, I mostly GM and so will have to learn everything anyway and none of my players care whether their characters are 'viable' or not.
That's exactly the people it'll be easier for.
My main source of concern is the number of extra pieces being bolted onto the system in PF2. I had my share of problems with PF1, but 'not enough fiddly conditional rules' wasn't one of them and sadly it seems to be the main one that the designers seem to be focused on.
Skill Feats aside, I don't think there are any additional 'fiddly rules'. Non-skill Feats aren't actually more common than things like Rage Powers, Rogue Talents, or Investigator Talents combined with Feats in PF1, so the 'added complexity' is basically just extra skill options, which is something the game needed rather desperately.
Something that will only emerge when we can see the full playtest rules will be just how much complexity the feats themselves add.
For example, getting a familiar or animal companion is a feat now, and that's a huge extra thing to keep track of, a thing that can take feats of its own and will interact in all sorts of ways; while something like Iron Will or its equivalent that just boosts your proficiencies is much easier.
Huh. Just though that animal companions will propably not have feats, which is a very good thing.
So... 30 feats chosen over 20 levels. So you're picking through a giant list of feats every single level, and doing it twice every other level.
:/
Man, half my table is going to love that and the other half is going to hate it.
As mentioned the idea is that you pick from 4 lists and everything is level gated, so every individual choice you make is much more straight forward than it initially appears.
My guess is Paizo tried to go from making each level up easy to do in a normal game, but creating a full 20 character build harder.
So... 30 feats chosen over 20 levels. So you're picking through a giant list of feats every single level, and doing it twice every other level.
:/
Man, half my table is going to love that and the other half is going to hate it.
Except I don't think it will be a giant list of feats, based on what they've been saying. It will be several (mostly mutually exclusive) smaller lists of feats, between skill feats and class feats and ancestry feats and such. And even general feats will likely be a smaller list, since they're doing away with feat trees for the most part.
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So... 30 feats chosen over 20 levels. So you're picking through a giant list of feats every single level, and doing it twice every other level.
:/
Man, half my table is going to love that and the other half is going to hate it.
As others note, the lists are actually subdivided so that each choice is from a much smaller list than that.
The list of Ancestry Feats for your particular Ancestry is about 10 Feats long at the moment, for example.
The list of Class Feats at each level seems to be no more than 5 Feats long (maybe longer at 1st), though you can also pick from previous lists in that case.
We know nothing about the General Feats list or Skill Feats list, but the Skill Feats list is gonna be fairly limited in practice just because you only have so many skills you want to invest in.
In short, I don't think this is gonna be nearly the hardship people thinking of it like picking a Feat in PF1 imagine it to be.
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As others note, the lists are actually subdivided so that each choice is from a much smaller list than that.
The list of Ancestry Feats for your particular Ancestry is about 10 Feats long at the moment, for example.
The list of Class Feats at each level seems to be no more than 5 Feats long (maybe longer at 1st), though you can also pick from previous lists in that case.
We know nothing about the General Feats list or Skill Feats list, but the Skill Feats list is gonna be fairly limited in practice just because you only have so many skills you want to invest in.
In short, I don't think this is gonna be nearly the hardship people thinking of it like picking a Feat in PF1 imagine it to be.
I expect it will be fine with the new CRB alone and get steadily less so as all new material thereafter feels compelled to expand the lists. :-(
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The Treadmill is the Treadmill, no getting around that. Heck, even in a game with a smaller crunch footprint like D&D5, it's harder now to make choices among different subclasses than it was four years ago. So, once the Advanced Primal Guide, and the Advanced Occult Guide, and the Martial Guide to Awesomeness start rolling out, it'll start looking more familiar even among detractors... :)
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I expect it will be fine with the new CRB alone and get steadily less so as all new material thereafter feels compelled to expand the lists. :-(
Eh. Based on Rage Power expansion and similar things, it'll certainly get more unwieldy, but not as bad as all that.
Now, after 10 years, there are slightly north of 150 Rage Powers (expanded from the 28 in the corebook). That sounds like a lot. Hell, it is a lot, but organized by level in an intentional fashion? It's a fivefold increase and probably gonna be no more than 20-30 at 1st level, and no more than 15 or so at any level thereafter, and that's after 10 years.
That's certainly an expanded list, but still a relatively reasonable one compared to Feats in PF1. Or even Rage Powers in PF1 (since they aren't organized by level).
I expect it will be fine with the new CRB alone and get steadily less so as all new material thereafter feels compelled to expand the lists. :-(
If there are too many options, there's a pretty easy way to scale it down for a player in PF2. Play one of the newer classes and ancestries. That'll limit class and ancestry feat options. Skill feat options will hopefully be easy to filter by what skills you've taken, and with 17 skills, each skill should grow pretty slowly. That only leaves the five general feats being selected from a full long list.
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That only leaves the five general feats being selected from a full long list.
General Feats as a separate category might also be very limited and generic. Since you can grab Skill Feats with them, any expansion of Skill Feats expands them as well, and hints thus far have tended towards many of them just granting Proficiency in things.
We don't know this is true, but I wouldn't just assume that General Feats is a wide and expansive category in its own right beyond the ability to use General Feats for Skill Feats.
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It'll be interesting to see if any metamagic or caster enhancing ability remains as a general feat rather than class feat. Similar for things like power attack that fit with several class concepts. Where is the line between a general feat and a class feat that is available to several classes?
We can also expect that the General Feats will really be general feats, ie. every class and race can benefit from any one of them. This is in contrast to the majority of PF1 General Feats which have one or more class feature, ability, and/or race prerequisites.
Yes, I am very curious about General Feat:
Will there be combat feats for martials?
Magic feats for casters?
What will the feat tax be for if you want to become legendary at say... Fortitude Saves? One feat that upgrades as you level? Or 2-3 feats depending on what proficiency you start with?
Also, there has been talk from the Devs as to improving Spell Points per day, I'm guessing that'll be found here as well. Lots more room than just Skill Feats...
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Yes, I am very curious about General Feat:
Will there be combat feats for martials?
Magic feats for casters?
These will probably be Class Feats based on the evidence. Some available to multiple Classes (like Double Slice).
What will the feat tax be for if you want to become legendary at say... Fortitude Saves? One feat that upgrades as you level? Or 2-3 feats depending on what proficiency you start with?
They've noted that raising Proficiencies above Trained via non-class stuff is hard. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will which would each increase a Save Proficiency one category, but I would be very surprised if you can increase a Save any more than that outside Class Features, and even that might not be around.
Also, there has been talk from the Devs as to improving Spell Points per day, I'm guessing that'll be found here as well. Lots more room than just Skill Feats...
This actually seems built in to any Class Feat that gives additional uses for the Spell Points rather than something separate from Class.
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One thing I'm concerned about is "how are class feats presented" in the PF2 CRB. Since one of the reasons that the Kineticist was such a problem for so many people is that the material in OA was not presented in a manner where the organization reflected the natural progression of a character. So instead of arranging talents by element (since you start out picking one) or by level (since at level 1 you care about level 1 powers, not level 13 powers) they were alphabetical, which is as I understand it the house standard, but often makes things confusing to someone who sits down to read one of these books (e.g. something is presented before its prerequisite, which it makes extensive reference to.)
So are all the class feats going to be put into one "class feats bin" so you'll have level 13 Cleric Feats right next to level 1 Wizard feats and level 7 Wizard feats, or are they going to be presented in categories like "Level 1 Fighter Feats, Level 3 Fighter Feats, Level 5 Fighter feats, etc."
At least in the playtest, it appears it will be in the class section right after the class they are for, sorted by level, based on the paizocon banquet
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They've specifically said that Class Feats will be organized by Level. Indeed, there's a page from the Druid Class shown at PaizoCon that proves this definitively.
They seems to be going more 'grab bag' for Ancestry Feats, but with only 10 of them or so in total, and the only level restricted ones having a prerequisite, that's less of an issue.
We don't know on General or Skill Feats, but I can't imagine Skill Feats not being organized by Skill and Proficiency Level.
Yes, I am very curious about General Feat:
Will there be combat feats for martials?
Magic feats for casters?These will probably be Class Feats based on the evidence. Some available to multiple Classes (like Double Slice).
What will the feat tax be for if you want to become legendary at say... Fortitude Saves? One feat that upgrades as you level? Or 2-3 feats depending on what proficiency you start with?They've noted that raising Proficiencies above Trained via non-class stuff is hard. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will which would each increase a Save Proficiency one category, but I would be very surprised if you can increase a Save any more than that outside Class Features, and even that might not be around.
Also, there has been talk from the Devs as to improving Spell Points per day, I'm guessing that'll be found here as well. Lots more room than just Skill Feats...This actually seems built in to any Class Feat that gives additional uses for the Spell Points rather than something separate from Class.
For once my friend, I hope you're wrong...
The bucket of Class Feats is large enough, that adding general combat/spell feats to the mix would be too much. Especially since most Class features from PF1 are now feats. So if you want to build a PF1esque class, you are at a serious disadvantage... Then throw in things like Archetypes, Orders, Oaths, the various styles of combat with various weapons, and the various spells, and the like and you have a large bucket indeed. I'm expecting from what we've seen that the class feats pool is roughly 30 feats.
Spell Points should be separate from class feats as well because they they are not tied to ONE class. Most classes have them, they just use them for different abilities... So it would be fitting to put them in General feats.
A classes good save from PF1 is now expert, and the bad save is trained. You can see evidence of this on the Druid page they previewed. Druids start as expert at Fort and Will, trained at Ref. I can also confirm this for other classes that I have seen at Paizocon. So to bring a character's good save to Legendary is two steps, while a bad save is three. I'm expecting the usual Greater Fortitude, Lightning Reflexes, and Iron Will. But saying that a character can't invest to become legendary at any (or all) of them without a class feature? (a la the Greater versions or something) That I doubt... The only class that I can see that would get that class feature is the Monk. (but then again they could get legendary unarmored proficiency instead...) And we know for a fact that it is possible to be legendary at will saves (at least) in PF2e:
...and a character with a legendary Will save might have a mind so strong that no mental intrusion can fully affect him.
This is all speculation at this point, but I'm expecting/hoping(?) a path for a character to take to become Legendary at something outside their class (if they so desired...)
Most characters become legendary in only a few skills and one or two other statistics.
This is an odd thing to be upset about. If you don't like the new content, just don't use it? And if you do like it, then the complaint falls away. Me and mine got on fine only going as far as Ultimate Combat (and Unchained I guess) because by that point we didn't find adding more increased our enjoyment.I expect it will be fine with the new CRB alone and get steadily less so as all new material thereafter feels compelled to expand the lists. :-(As others note, the lists are actually subdivided so that each choice is from a much smaller list than that.
The list of Ancestry Feats for your particular Ancestry is about 10 Feats long at the moment, for example.
The list of Class Feats at each level seems to be no more than 5 Feats long (maybe longer at 1st), though you can also pick from previous lists in that case.
We know nothing about the General Feats list or Skill Feats list, but the Skill Feats list is gonna be fairly limited in practice just because you only have so many skills you want to invest in.
In short, I don't think this is gonna be nearly the hardship people thinking of it like picking a Feat in PF1 imagine it to be.
The inevitable gradual expansion of feat and spell lists isn't worth being upset about, but it's still a shame.
"Just don't use it" doesn't work if you do PFS or if the rest of your group wants to use it. And the problem I see isn't particular new content, anyway. It's not that there will be bad new feats/spells, it's that there will be many new feats/spells. But at least the growth will (probably) be slower than it was in PF1.
I like how "becoming legendarily competent" in a thing does require a character to specialize more than they might have in PF1. Like I'm in a Strange Aeons game and I have a level 12 Occultist who has a +20 or more modifier on rolls with 10 different skills. I much prefer the option of having a character being legendarily adept with a bow, stealth, and nature than having a character being one of the world's leading experts in Appraise, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Linguistics, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Arcana, History, Religion, and the Planes simultaneously.
I like how "becoming legendarily competent" in a thing does require a character to specialize more than they might have in PF1. Like I'm in a Strange Aeons game and I have a level 12 Occultist who has a +20 or more modifier on rolls with 10 different skills. I much prefer the option of having a character being legendarily adept with a bow, stealth, and nature than having a character being one of the world's leading experts in Appraise, Diplomacy, Disable Device, Linguistics, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device, Arcana, History, Religion, and the Planes simultaneously.
I agree, I'm settling down to the possibility that my character can only be Legendary to ONE or TWO other statistics. But can be a Master at a few others, and I'm ok with that...
This actually seems built in to any Class Feat that gives additional uses for the Spell Points rather than something separate from Class.For once my friend, I hope you're wrong...
The bucket of Class Feats is large enough, that adding general combat/spell feats to the mix would be too much. Especially since most Class features from PF1 are now feats. So if you want to build a PF1esque class, you are at a serious disadvantage... Then throw in things like Archetypes, Orders, Oaths, the various styles of combat with various weapons, and the various spells, and the like and you have a large bucket indeed. I'm expecting from what we've seen that the class feats pool is roughly 30 feats.
Spell Points should be separate from class feats as well because they they are not tied to ONE class. Most classes have them, they just use them for different abilities... So it would be fitting to put them in General feats.
I disagree. The way it's shown to work is that every time you pick a new power, which is determined by your class (for instance, Paladin powers are a bit more powerful for their cost than a clerics), you get additional spell points added to your pool. The class you get the power from doesn't matter; in theory you can pick up a wizard school power, a cleric domain power, and a paladin litany power, and each time you gain that power your spell point pool gets a little bigger, and you can use that pool to cast any of them. We don't know exactly how many new points you get per day yet, but limiting it in this way seems reasonable to me.
I could see a general feat that just adds point without giving you a new power though.
I disagree. The way it's shown to work is that every time you pick a new power, which is determined by your class (for instance, Paladin powers are a bit more powerful for their cost than a clerics), you get additional spell points added to your pool. The class you get the power from doesn't matter; in theory you can pick up a wizard school power, a cleric domain power, and a paladin litany power, and each time you gain that power your spell point pool gets a little bigger, and you can use that pool to cast any of them. We don't know exactly how many new points you get per day yet, but limiting it in this way seems reasonable to me.
I could see a general feat that just adds point without giving you a new power though.
I'll just chime in that this is not true for every time you take an ability that uses spell points, however.
Storm order Druids get feats to cast certain spells with spell points, and these grant them additional spell points. If Druid of another order takes them, they don't get the spell points. Druids also have a feat that lets them augment summoning spells using a spell point, and that doesn't give spell points.
Neither of those is set up in the same fashion as a domain power, however (written up as a special new spell).
I wouldn't be surprised to see Extra Spell Points as a general feat so that anybody can augment their pool further if needed, but it seems like it's generally handled in-class.
Yes, I am very curious about General Feat:
Will there be combat feats for martials?
Magic feats for casters?These will probably be Class Feats based on the evidence. Some available to multiple Classes (like Double Slice).
What will the feat tax be for if you want to become legendary at say... Fortitude Saves? One feat that upgrades as you level? Or 2-3 feats depending on what proficiency you start with?They've noted that raising Proficiencies above Trained via non-class stuff is hard. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will which would each increase a Save Proficiency one category, but I would be very surprised if you can increase a Save any more than that outside Class Features, and even that might not be around.
Also, there has been talk from the Devs as to improving Spell Points per day, I'm guessing that'll be found here as well. Lots more room than just Skill Feats...This actually seems built in to any Class Feat that gives additional uses for the Spell Points rather than something separate from Class.For once my friend, I hope you're wrong...
The bucket of Class Feats is large enough, that adding general combat/spell feats to the mix would be too much. Especially since most Class features from PF1 are now feats. So if you want to build a PF1esque class, you are at a serious disadvantage... Then throw in things like Archetypes, Orders, Oaths, the various styles of combat with various weapons, and the various spells, and the like and you have a large bucket indeed. I'm expecting from what we've seen that the class feats pool is roughly 30 feats.
Spell Points should be separate from class feats as well because they they are not tied to ONE class. Most classes have them, they just use them for different abilities... So it would be fitting to put them in General feats.A classes good save from...
Well, we know they are moving away from feats that give small numeric bonuses to feats that give new options, so I'd expect something like Iron Will would be the exception, not the rule. But I think it is also worth pointing out that save proficiency seems way better than just bumping up the number. I believe Mark said Evasion is now something you get automatically with Master reflex saves. Which may mean Improved Evasion comes from Legendary... Getting evasion as a general feat available to all classes (or something equivalent for fortitude and will) would be very strong indeed.
Very interesting thoughts guys. Lots here to contemplate on.
AnimatedPaper and QuidEst, that general feat to give you JUST spell points is what I was talking about. I do remember Mark saying something about enlarging the spell points pool, General Feats makes the most sense. But I do agree, it should mostly be done in house. I'm curious as to how it will work, for the spell point pool starts off with the classes mod (Paladin gets spell points= cha) but then should get bigger...
Captain Morgan, if what you are saying is true... then wow. That is a neat direction they are taking the saves. And I am absolutely wrong that they are general feats. But which classes should they be locked into? And could other classes have access to them somehow? In the someway that Mark has repeatedly said that you can get Legendary Heavy Armour proficiency outside the Paladin class? Also, I can see evidence to back up your claim already by looking at the Rogue... The Slippery Mind ability makes the Rogue a Master at Will saves. I'm also taking for granted that the Rogue will be Legendary at Reflex saves. (if that is the case for evasion) So that gives the Rogue two saves that he/she will be a master at! I am very curious as to what further info Paizo will reveal about Saves and/or General Feats in the future...
I wonder how this structure affects multiclassing so that it does not lag behind in power level while also not becoming the de facto Go To solution for minmaxer builds
I too am very curious about this. It's one of the things I am really looking forward to seeing the rules for.
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While we know you can Legendary Heavy Armor proficiency outside of the Paladin class, I think it is going to be class locked, probably to the fighter. They've commented that it you can very easily become trained in any given weapon or armor, but getting the higher level proficiencies are trickier.
They've noted that raising Proficiencies above Trained via non-class stuff is hard. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Great Fortitude, Lighting Reflexes, and Iron Will which would each increase a Save Proficiency one category, but I would be very surprised if you can increase a Save any more than that outside Class Features, and even that might not be around.
I believe Saves and Skills were stated to be the two exceptions to that, though as evidenced in the Skills blog discussion Skills can only go so high normally.
While we know you can Legendary Heavy Armor proficiency outside of the Paladin class, I think it is going to be class locked, probably to the fighter. They've commented that it you can very easily become trained in any given weapon or armor, but getting the higher level proficiencies are trickier.
Personally I suspect it won't be Class locked but probably Archetype locked instead. Some kind of tanky combat archetype that gives Legendary Heavy Armor proficiency would make sense to me.
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I think hardcore optimizers are not going to be happy but as there won't be so many add-ons like there are in PF 1.0 after ten years of adding on come next August when PF 2.0 releases, there's nothing that can be done for that. I am really looking forward to the new mechanics and class structures.
The potential Legendary statistics that I can think of are: Perception, Fort Save, Ref Save, Will Save, Spells (Arcane, Divine, Primal, etc), Weapons (one group or in the case of the Fighter, all simple and martial), Armour (Paladins get highest heavy armour, another class may get light or medium?...), then skills (max 6 for Rogues, max of 3 for everyone else)
I think they will be both locked through Classes and Archetypes. But we'll see... Not sure if they are planning on explaining this in a blog in the future.
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(max 6 for Rogues, max of 3 for everyone else)
We don't know this for sure. The number of possible Rogue skills that Mark Seifter gave is both interesting and odd. It strongly implies that either Rogues or all Classes get something on the order of 10 ranks of skills only usable to take skills to Trained.
It's possible that everyone gets 18 or 19 Skill Ranks to raise skills, with all a Rogue's extra skills going to get other skills at Trained, meaning everyone can get 6 skills at Legend (assuming they can get six signature skills, anyway), and Rogues just get all the other skills (or a bunch of Lores) trained to boot.
That's certainly not a sure thing, but it's a possibility.
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If you're talking about the quote I think you're talking about, he said that that was for a rogue who spent every possible resource getting more skill ranks (and the number was 35 for the max-skill rogue - which of course is more than the number of proper skills in the game, so the rogue would be getting plenty of Lores).
I am indeed talking about that post.
A bunch of those would be the starting allotment from your ancestry, background, and level 1 in the class (including Intelligence bonus). For a rogue, that would probably account for something like 10-15 ranks. The other 20-25 would probably come from feat selection. I would not be surprised if there's a feat along the lines of "Skill training: either increase two skills from untrained to trained, or one from trained to expert."
He phrased it as 'skill rank increases' specifically, which inclines me to think it doesn't count starting skills at 1st, though I could be wrong there easily enough.
The math also seems slightly off that way.
We know you can take another Skill as a Skill Feat (apparently only to Trained), and we know you can use General Feats for Skill Feats, which means that 25 of those 'trained only' options are Feats.
So, by process of elimination that'd mean Rogues get 7+Int skills, and mean that raising Int after character creation does not give additional skills or mean that Rogues only gain 5 + Int skills at 1st...and both of those options seems slightly off.
Or mean Mark got the math slightly wrong, of course. :)
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If you're talking about the quote I think you're talking about, he said that that was for a rogue who spent every possible resource getting more skill ranks (and the number was 35 for the max-skill rogue - which of course is more than the number of proper skills in the game, so the rogue would be getting plenty of Lores).I am indeed talking about that post.
A bunch of those would be the starting allotment from your ancestry, background, and level 1 in the class (including Intelligence bonus). For a rogue, that would probably account for something like 10-15 ranks. The other 20-25 would probably come from feat selection. I would not be surprised if there's a feat along the lines of "Skill training: either increase two skills from untrained to trained, or one from trained to expert."He phrased it as 'skill rank increases' specifically, which inclines me to think it doesn't count starting skills at 1st, though I could be wrong there easily enough.
The math also seems slightly off that way.
We know you can take another Skill as a Skill Feat (apparently only to Trained), and we know you can use General Feats for Skill Feats, which means that 25 of those 'trained only' options are Feats.
So, by process of elimination that'd mean Rogues get 7+Int skills, and mean that raising Int after character creation does not give additional skills or mean that Rogues only gain 5 + Int skills at 1st...and both of those options seems slightly off.
Or mean Mark got the math slightly wrong, of course. :)
I count any time you increase a skill rank, including the starting increases from untrained to trained. However, when I said this character was really optimizing for increases, I've pursued more (fairly silly but possible) choices to achieve this than you've speculated, and the "at least 54" number is true but lower than necessary, I had it at 64+ originally but thought I made a math error and edited down by 10, but 64+ was closer (should be around 66 but might as well skew low in case of an error). I have since realized that I made a critical omission of silly choices that could add 90 more skill rank increases to this hypothetical rogue (156 increases ftw!), which could in theory be used for mostly expert and some master. However, that particular fact is not very useful to anybody in guessing how it works, since it involves a particularly odd choice that's extremely restrictive on where 120 of the rank increases can go. I mean not that anything past the first 16 untrained to trained can go anywhere but Lore anyway!
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Thanks Mark, that's good information to have. :)
It doesn't tell us how many skill ranks non-Rogues get every odd level (or even how many Rogues get), but it's good to know that 54 isn't the absolute cap.
That does mean that I have absolutely no idea how many ranks either Rogues or non-Rogues get per level. I'm just completely lost on that one now.
Which is fine. I'm sure we'll find out eventually. :)
Yeah, I'm more confused now than ever before...
But that's ok, thanks Mark!!!
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Thanks Mark, that's good information to have. :)
It doesn't tell us how many skill ranks non-Rogues get every odd level (or even how many Rogues get), but it's good to know that 54 isn't the absolute cap.
That does mean that I have absolutely no idea how many ranks either Rogues or non-Rogues get per level. I'm just completely lost on that one now.
Which is fine. I'm sure we'll find out eventually. :)
I would recommend looking at the number of rank increases that can push my hypothetical rogue above trained in the example (those are exact counts and do not change when going from 54+ to 64+ either; other than the new and misleading trick, my tricks are all to get more trained skills).
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Yeah, I'm more confused now than ever before...
But that's ok, thanks Mark!!!
Basically, I was taking a repeatable feat over and over with all of my non-class feats in my silly rogue build, but then I realized I could take a different and sillier repeatable feat all those times instead; that's how 90 more suddenly showed up. But since you guys knew about the feat I was taking before and not the sillier one, it was easier for DMW to analyze my previous example's possible parameters.
Thanks Mark, that's good information to have. :)
It doesn't tell us how many skill ranks non-Rogues get every odd level (or even how many Rogues get), but it's good to know that 54 isn't the absolute cap.
That does mean that I have absolutely no idea how many ranks either Rogues or non-Rogues get per level. I'm just completely lost on that one now.
Which is fine. I'm sure we'll find out eventually. :)
I would recommend looking at the number of rank increases that can push my hypothetical rogue above trained in the example (those are exact counts and do not change when going from 54+ to 64+ either; other than the new and misleading trick, my tricks are all to get more trained skills).
...But since you guys knew about the feat I was taking before and not the sillier one, it was easier for DMW to analyze my previous example's possible parameters.
That still gets us 6 legendary skills for Silly Rogue. But how can we calculate it for everyone else? Do you have a Silly Fighter example?... ;-P
Is that the Assurance(I think that's what it was called) feat that you speak of...
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I would recommend looking at the number of rank increases that can push my hypothetical rogue above trained in the example (those are exact counts and do not change when going from 54+ to 64+ either; other than the new and misleading trick, my tricks are all to get more trained skills).
That probably means everyone gets only one Rank per level where you get them, giving non-Rogues a total of 9. The Rogue would then get them on even levels as well, totaling 19.
But that remains a guess.
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That still gets us 6 legendary skills for Silly Rogue. But how can we calculate it for everyone else? Do you have a Silly Fighter example?... ;-P
I've looked back and the blog that I thought spilled those beans just said the rogue got "more." So "fewer." Being silly doesn't really give us more legendary skills at all, so silly and non silly rogue are at 6, silly and non silly fighter are at less than 6. Since we have said that the rank increases for non-rogues come at the odd levels other than 1st, unless you get a non-constant number that varies level by level, the only way for both to be true is if you get one each time, which would lead to 9 increases, and 3 legendary skills.
I would recommend looking at the number of rank increases that can push my hypothetical rogue above trained in the example (those are exact counts and do not change when going from 54+ to 64+ either; other than the new and misleading trick, my tricks are all to get more trained skills).That probably means everyone gets only one Rank per level where you get them, giving non-Rogues a total of 9. The Rogue would then get them on even levels as well, totaling 19.
But that remains a guess.
Huh. Interesting. So basically if you're not a Rogue, pick three skills and be awesome at them.
Again, that is if you're right... But the math works...