I've looked back and the blog that I thought spilled those beans just said the rogue got "more." So "fewer." Being silly doesn't really give us more legendary skills at all, so silly and non silly rogue are at 6, silly and non silly fighter are at less than 6. Since we have said that the rank increases for non-rogues come at the odd levels other than 1st, unless you get a non-constant number that varies level by level, the only way for both to be true is if you get one each time, which would lead to 9 increases, and 3 legendary skills.That still gets us 6 legendary skills for Silly Rogue. But how can we calculate it for everyone else? Do you have a Silly Fighter example?... ;-P
Well... That confirms it DeadManWalking. Thanks Mark, I appreciate you for sharing the info.
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Oh, and by the way, if we're talking 'silly', shouldn't we include them being a Gnome to grab the 'Obsessive' Ancestry Feat (revealed at PaizoCon)? That gets you 4 increases and an extra skill at Legendary. Of course, it has to be a Lore skill...
Huh. Interesting. So basically if you're not a Rogue, pick three skills and be awesome at them.
Again, that is if you're right... But the math works...
Well, not necessarily. I can easily see someone only wanting Legendary Skill Feats from one or two skills, in which case you can spread your other increases around a bit. I mean, for non-Rogues you get a whole 3 Legendary Skill Feats. 5 if you invest General Feats as well.
Another thing worth noting is that some Class other than Rogue might get some bonus Skill Ranks. Almost certainly not as many as Rogue, but I could easily see, say, Bard getting a few. Ranger could, too, depending.
I've looked back and the blog that I thought spilled those beans just said the rogue got "more." So "fewer." Being silly doesn't really give us more legendary skills at all, so silly and non silly rogue are at 6, silly and non silly fighter are at less than 6. Since we have said that the rank increases for non-rogues come at the odd levels other than 1st, unless you get a non-constant number that varies level by level, the only way for both to be true is if you get one each time, which would lead to 9 increases, and 3 legendary skills.That still gets us 6 legendary skills for Silly Rogue. But how can we calculate it for everyone else? Do you have a Silly Fighter example?... ;-P
As Iron_Matt17 says, thanks Mark, that's super helpful. :)
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Oh, and by the way, if we're talking 'silly', shouldn't we include them being a Gnome to grab the 'Obsessive' Ancestry Feat (revealed at PaizoCon)? That gets you 4 increases and an extra skill at Legendary. Of course, it has to be a Lore skill...
Nope, while I can be a gnome and spend 1 ancestry feat and get 4, including a legendary, if I'm not a gnome I can instead spend all 5 ancestry feats to get 5 (or I guess 20 that are super restricted with the extra-silly variant), so I did because spending 4 feats to have 1 more skill is what silly rogues do best!
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Nope, while I can be a gnome and spend 1 ancestry feat and get 4, including a legendary, if I'm not a gnome I can instead spend all 5 ancestry feats to get 5 (or I guess 20 that are super restricted with the extra-silly variant), so I did because spending 4 feats to have 1 more skill is what silly rogues do best!
This makes sense. I'm now betting silly Rogue is Human.
Oh, and by the way, if we're talking 'silly', shouldn't we include them being a Gnome to grab the 'Obsessive' Ancestry Feat (revealed at PaizoCon)? That gets you 4 increases and an extra skill at Legendary. Of course, it has to be a Lore skill...
Huh. Interesting. So basically if you're not a Rogue, pick three skills and be awesome at them.
Again, that is if you're right... But the math works...
Well, not necessarily. I can easily see someone only wanting Legendary Skill Feats from one or two skills, in which case you can spread your other increases around a bit. I mean, for non-Rogues you get a whole 3 Legendary Skill Feats. 5 if you invest General Feats as well.
As Iron_Matt17 says, thanks Mark, that's super helpful. :)I've looked back and the blog that I thought spilled those beans just said the rogue got "more." So "fewer." Being silly doesn't really give us more legendary skills at all, so silly and non silly rogue are at 6, silly and non silly fighter are at less than 6. Since we have said that the rank increases for non-rogues come at the odd levels other than 1st, unless you get a non-constant number that varies level by level, the only way for both to be true is if you get one each time, which would lead to 9 increases, and 3 legendary skills.That still gets us 6 legendary skills for Silly Rogue. But how can we calculate it for everyone else? Do you have a Silly Fighter example?... ;-P
Yeah, I was being flippant about it. Not everyone wants to be Legendary at 3 skills. There's even the option of being expert at 9 different skills... With regards to the Skill Feats, it makes sense to me to buy into those few skills you want to invest into. You do have to invest them somewhere...
Nope, while I can be a gnome and spend 1 ancestry feat and get 4, including a legendary, if I'm not a gnome I can instead spend all 5 ancestry feats to get 5 (or I guess 20 that are super restricted with the extra-silly variant), so I did because spending 4 feats to have 1 more skill is what silly rogues do best!This makes sense. I'm now betting silly Rogue is Human.
A good bet!! And I'm happy to hear that a silly Human Rogue can turn their Ancestry Feats into General Feats more than once!!
Unless we lost the bet that is...
Actually, isn't the restricted number of Legendary skills is as of now because the position of minimum level-gates for proficiency ranks effectively bottlenecking your rank spending?
I'm pretty lost at this point.
So, at 1st-level, characters start with a certain number of ranks that they can spend to become Trained in skills, but some can classes can spend 2 ranks to become an Expert? They gain more ranks as they level, and Mater and Legendary open up at certain levels?
You are correct on everything except for the spending 2 ranks to become expert. I've only seen PCs start at trained, and no one has hinted otherwise...
Right on, thanks, so, do we know how many ranks any of the classes start with, and how many for levelling?You are correct on everything except for the spending 2 ranks to become expert. I've only seen PCs start at trained, and no one has hinted otherwise...I'm pretty lost at this point.
So, at 1st-level, characters start with a certain number of ranks that they can spend to become Trained in skills, but some can classes can spend 2 ranks to become an Expert? They gain more ranks as they level, and Mater and Legendary open up at certain levels?
We know Fighters get 3+int and druids get 4+Int to start. (Does int apply retroactively? If I raise my Intelligence by +2 at level 5, do I gain training in an additional skill?)
If I am reading Mark's posts correctly, after level 1 non-rogues get 1 skill increase every odd level, for a total of 9. Feats can be used to get more of these but it doesn't sound like an efficient use of resources.
Maybe not but the legendary skill abilities do sound pretty nifty. Maybe if the other party memeber have damaging characters covered well it might work out to have a skill only rogue. If some of the other legendary skill things are as nifty you might even be able to do some effective stuff in combat with skills (Like disarming and tripping are going to be skill based right?)
Groovy, thanks, so, you can end up trained in pretty much all skills. I really like that Int mod adds to trained skills (they blew it with Int in 5th Ed), and I hope it is retroactive with increases.Right on, thanks, so, do we know how many ranks any of the classes start with, and how many for levelling?You are correct on everything except for the spending 2 ranks to become expert. I've only seen PCs start at trained, and no one has hinted otherwise...I'm pretty lost at this point.
So, at 1st-level, characters start with a certain number of ranks that they can spend to become Trained in skills, but some can classes can spend 2 ranks to become an Expert? They gain more ranks as they level, and Mater and Legendary open up at certain levels?
We know Fighters get 3+int and druids get 4+Int to start. (Does int apply retroactively? If I raise my Intelligence by +2 at level 5, do I gain training in an additional skill?)
If I am reading Mark's posts correctly, after level 1 non-rogues get 1 skill increase every odd level, for a total of 9. Feats can be used to get more of these but it doesn't sound like an efficient use of resources.
No problem. Incidentally, the Fighter will almost certainly have 4+Int in the final version-- evidently the Paizo team agreed that was a good idea but forgot to actually implement it before book went to the printer.
I also hope the Int thing applies retroactively, although I'm not sure how that will interact with the gated proficiency thing. Like, what if I'm already trained in every skill but Lore?
I like the structure of the current character generation, even though the system "feels homogenized" i believe the variance and the meat is in the selection and the "baseline" abilities of Classes and whatever variance ancestry adds to the character.
It basically makes every class similar to what Rogue, Slayer and that Monk Archtype where you can "build your own Rogue/Slayer/Monk" and have the potensial to have very different characters in mechanics even if they were the same class and ancestry.
So from what i gathered a character will have a set of Baseline abilities in *addition* to the system put forth, which is far from homogenized in my opinion, tho it rise the question of choice paralysis.
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This is a concern for me, so many moving parts, but hopefully at each level it is not overwhelming.
From what i have had the impression of is that there is a lot of sub-catagories. So in every catagory you may have only like 5-7 choices to begin with and slowly expand as you level up.
Stuff like Ancestry Feats, Skill Feats, General Feats and Class Feats might sound daunting if you think of all of them at once, but as soon as you just decide to see them in their own catagory and what you actually have the requirements for the list might not be so wide anymore.
When I played at Paizocon, I noticed most of the classes had around 6 skills, while the Rogue had 9. These were level 1 characters, so I'm not expecting much difference. Though we also know that the classes will probably start with 4 signature skills each. (I'm expecting more for the Rogue) Then they may also get two from their backgrounds, which accounts for the 6 skills listed at level 1.
I'm not sure about Int applying retroactively, all we know is that you start with a limited number of skills to be trained for. Then you "upgrade" skill proficiencies from then on...
I think if you are the kind of player to plan out your whole build before the character is level 1 there will be some analysis paralysis. But I'd also wager if you are the type of player to do that you either relish the challenge or adapt guides anyway.
If you are the type of player to just pick as you go I think the segregated lists will make that very quick and easy.
I am of the first kind, but honestly you have that in PF1 with the myrad of choices you have across 10 years of content. However i think its going to be easier for everyone with this new system if they manage to have a consistent way of listing it up.
The problems doesnt show up before the first few additional content books we get, so i wonder what kind of problem PF2 might get from this.
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When I played at Paizocon, I noticed most of the classes had around 6 skills, while the Rogue had 9. These were level 1 characters, so I'm not expecting much difference. Though we also know that the classes will probably start with 4 signature skills each. (I'm expecting more for the Rogue) Then they may also get two from their backgrounds, which accounts for the 6 skills listed at level 1.
I'm not sure about Int applying retroactively, all we know is that you start with a limited number of skills to be trained for. Then you "upgrade" skill proficiencies from then on...
Backgrounds give a single Lore, so only one Skill. I'd expect other bonus skills come from other stuff (Valeros has decent Int, Seelah presumably has Pickpocket, which might give Thievery and a Lay on Hands Feat that might grant Medicine, etc.)
Oh, so you cannot become trained in new skills after 1st-level, only upgrade proficiency?
No, you totally can with any Skill Ranks you get. You may or may not get such skills for free when you raise Int (though I suspect you do to make leveling less confusing).
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Great, clears that up, much obliged. Do we know about starting languages and if Intelligence increases number known?
We know Gnomes get a single bonus language at Int 14+. How general that is becomes hard to say, since Gnomes are atypical in having three starting languages at Int 10, and Gnomes are the only Ancestry we've seen that page for.
However, it seems likely that people in general can get a bonus language or two from Int, but not one per Int bonus.
This is on top of getting Skills from Int bonus, of course.
Speaking of languages, I've always found them pretty hugely unsatisfying. I hate how in 1e I can play a character that specializes in languages (Truespeaker Aasimaar with high Int and max linguistics for example) and have a massive list of known languages but it's still a crap shoot.
Sometimes the GM doesn't really use different languages. Sometimes they use a completely different selection than Golarian's list. Sometimes the one specific language just happens to not be on my list, and languages never come up again.
I would love it if linguistics became more narrative and setting agnostic. Everyone starts with languages they know, then linguistics proficiency ranks lets you piece together and communicate better in increasingly rare language groups.