Kinda going back to the first couple posts in the thread, but... what is 'chemical touch' someone mentioned? I'm having trouble finding what that is, exactly.
There was initially a theory that like *pretty much ANY ooze* an oozemorph would have some sort of acidic component added to their damage.
That has since been largely debunked by the original creator of the archetype.
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Sounds like i'm going to have to house rule the heck out of the oozemorph.
There was initially a theory that like *pretty much ANY ooze* an oozemorph would have some sort of acidic component added to their damage.That has since been largely debunked by the original creator of the archetype.
Gotcha. Thanks.
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So DR/Slashing is interesting, but it initiatly had me worried; Tons of creatures have claws and bites and swords, after all. So I figured I'd skim the Bestiary and do a quick (and sloppy) count of what creatures at what Challenge Ratings deal slashing damage to see if the DR is dependable. It's only Bestiary 1 so far, so take it with a grain of salt.
To clarify, I count "able to beat DR/Slashing" by any creature that deals slashing damage with at least half of their primary attack routine, using total number of attacks to determine if Melee or Ranged is primary. Creatures that deal entirely energy damage count as bypassing DR, as to creatures that have a damage dealing spell in their highest slot.
I skipped familiar entries because ain't nobody got time for that.
Format: CR) Beats Slashing/Doesn't
<1)16/7
1)14/9
2) 27/10
3) 22/14
4) 17/11
5) 17/9
6) 9/8
7) 18/11
8) 12/7
9) 13/8
10) 9/2
11) 7/8
12) 5/1
13) 6/2
14) 5/1
15) 3/1
16) 3/0
17) 4/0
18) 2/1
19) 2/1
20) 4/0
21) 0/0
22) 0/0
23) 1/0
24) 0/0
25) 1/0
Grand Total: 217/111
About 66% of the monsters in Bestiary will bypass your DR/Slashing. Despite the commonality of animals and their claw/claw/bites at low levels, it isn't until 12+ where the odds start really working against you, jumping to an 83%
Just found out, post counting, that I forgot weapons of a sufficient enhancement ignore DR/Slashing. I'm fairly certain this won't change more than a couple of entries, though.
Short version: 66% of the monsters beat DR/slashing and it gets worse in the late game. The math is imperfect, and it's only B1, but it does raise concerns.
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Actually no amount of Enhancement Bonus on a weapon will allow it to overcome DR by type like that, it only covers special materials and alignment based DR.
The biggest thing I see the Oozemorph's DR helping against is archers and spear wielders, so people who have distance on you.
Oh? Looks like I need to reread the rules on that.
Interesting perspective on the archer dealy. Heck, i recall seeing giants and their rock throwing with a fair regularity, and knife throwers aren't exactly a regular thing.
Still, it makes me feel like Weapon Finesse with an Agile Amulet via the Extra Item Slot feat is starting to feel like the go-to way to make a fairly decently geared Oozemorph who still has okay armor class. Either that, or you go strength, say nuts to it, and take feats or a dip for Plate armor proficiency when you're in humanoid form.
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It sort of feels like the Oozemorph is going to benefit more from the optional "automatic bonus progression" rules in Unchained than any other class, since I think that while the armor attunement and weapon attunement rules don't do anything for you while you're oozy, you would still keep your resistance, deflection, toughening, and mental/physical prowess bonuses. You're basically up a cloak of resistance, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and belt/headband over a regular oozemorph.
I'm not sure if I'm aware of another situation where a relatively benign optional rule causes a significant increase in power for a class.
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It sort of feels like the Oozemorph is going to benefit more from the optional "automatic bonus progression" rules in Unchained than any other class, since I think that while the armor attunement and weapon attunement rules don't do anything for you while you're oozy, you would still keep your resistance, deflection, toughening, and mental/physical prowess bonuses. You're basically up a cloak of resistance, ring of protection, amulet of natural armor, and belt/headband over a regular oozemorph.
I'm not sure if I'm aware of another situation where a relatively benign optional rule causes a significant increase in power for a class.
Vow of Poverty Monks?
Or Brawlers, for that matter. Unless they get a house-ruled combination Amulet of Mighty Fists/Natural Armor.|
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It sort of feels like the Oozemorph is going to benefit more from the optional "automatic bonus progression" rules in Unchained than any other class...
True, it gains more than just about anyone. Heck, I've even toyed with the idea of running a game where each PC gains a special item that scales with them and grants special powers, Blademound Magus style. The idea sounds pretty fun, and I would even let an Oozemorph keep their special item active regardless of their form.
Still, this involves altering the entirety of the core item progression for the benefit of two or three archetypes, which may not work for every group. And as a PFS player, it isn't going to help me out. I'm looking forward to really diving into this thing later in the week, maybe come up with a few sample builds when I can really digest the entirety of Ultimate Wilderness. I bet there are a handful of good shifter-focused feats that lead to some fun play styles.
I'll have the PDF tomorrow, so I'll be able to add something more to the discussion.
One thing that I thought of though: The Oozemorph gets a lot of natural attacks but if it does take a humanoid shape there's nothing stopping it from picking up a two-handed weapon, a the Multiattack feat and go to town.
That could be a fun build.
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Let me see if I got this correctly... At level 1, with a 20 in Con, I have a Fort of +7... I can assume Humanoid form ONCE PER DAY... So I have a 55% chance of being all but completely useless to the party for 23 hours a day... Should I pass I have a 60% chance one hour later... This has to the be the very worst archetype in the entire game for what is already a very sub-par class...
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...that's if you dumped everything pretty much to get a 20 Con, yeah.
Disappointing, like the lack of any sort of acidic damage like pretty much every ooze out there has, too, and the 'Feat Tax' to be able to use any reasonable magical equipment.
It's almost like this should be a Prestige Class that banks on 5-6 levels of pre-existing Shifter...
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I feel like an Oozemorph will work in a game where you're replacing a dead character at like level 5, so you don't have to deal with the "man am I useless" at the very low levels.
But starting at level 1 seems rough.
Let me see if I got this correctly... At level 1, with a 20 in Con, I have a Fort of +7... I can assume Humanoid form ONCE PER DAY... So I have a 55% chance of being all but completely useless to the party for 23 hours a day... Should I pass I have a 60% chance one hour later... This has to the be the very worst archetype in the entire game for what is already a very sub-par class...
You can get that Fortitude bonus up to +10 if you take the Great Fortitude feat and the Resilient trait. If you are human, you can add Improved Great Fortitude for a 1x/day reroll of a Fortitude save.
But I do agree that you shouldn't have to put so many resources into not being a blob.
Let's see humanoid (without stress/Fort Save) breakdown:
L1: 1 hour
L2: 2 hours
L3: 3 hours
L4: 4 hours 2x/day
L5: 5 hours 2x/day
L6: 6 hours 3x/day, 3 attacks
L7: 7 hours 3x/day
L8: 8 hours 4x/day, can treat as Beast Shape 1
L9: 9 hours 4x/day
L10: 10 hours 5x/day
L11: 11 hours 5x/day
L12: 12 hours 6x/day
L13: 13 hours 6x/day
L14: 14 hours 7x/day
L15: 15 hours 7x/day can treat as Beast Shape II/Giant Shape I 4 Attacks
L16: 16 hours 8x/day
L17: 17 hours 8x/day
L18: 18 hours 9x/day
L19: 19 hours 9x/day
L20: 20 hours 10x/day
So it would seem the 'sweet spot' is about L7-8, depending on whether the character was sleeping or not?
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What confuses me the most about this archetype is that you are trying to fight against it's negatives just to be a normal humanoid most of the time. When I play something I want to EMBRACE the neat oddities, not min/max them away to just be functional.
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What confuses me the most about this archetype is that you are trying to fight against it's negatives just to be a normal humanoid most of the time. When I play something I want to EMBRACE the neat oddities, not min/max them away to just be functional.
Yeah, thats why I initially didn't even realize that class was designed humanoid form in mind and kept asking designer few times what is the point of ooze form ._. I mean, it felt more intuitive for me that reason why I would want to play oozemorph would be the ooze form not the humanoid form.
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You know what... every time I look at it it confuses me more... You give up every feature of Shifter with the exception of Track and Trackless Step... You aren't even really you original class. You get none of the minor/major benefits of the aspects that even made this class slightly unique... You get none of the damage scaling in your natural weapons... and the biggest sin of all? The freaking art for the archetype looks AWESOME...
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I couldn't tell if it was art for this archetype or the Fiendflesh, tbh.
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Let me see if I got this correctly... At level 1, with a 20 in Con, I have a Fort of +7... I can assume Humanoid form ONCE PER DAY... So I have a 55% chance of being all but completely useless to the party for 23 hours a day... Should I pass I have a 60% chance one hour later... This has to the be the very worst archetype in the entire game for what is already a very sub-par class...
At least now there's a definite answer to the age-old question "what is he worst class for a one level dip?"
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To me, the oozemorph feels totally backwards. It should give you gradually better abilities to be an ooze, not gradually better abilities to NOT be an ooze.
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The ooze form isn't a benefit, it's effectively a "bad thing" that the oozemorph manages to make the best of. In their natural, blobby state they're at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of ways. This is why their damage reduction and compression abilities still work outside of their ooze form. Outside of getting a (slow) climb speed, they're very vulnerable in that state.The oozemorph is mean to excel when in humanoid (or others, depending on level) form, utilizing damage reduction, compression, and morphic weaponry (on top of the remaining shifter abilities).
Dropping into blob form might be able to be creatively used to good effect, but it is primarily a drawback and should be viewed as such.
That said, oozemorphs can absolutely benefit from ioun stones in both forms.
Why make a class whose whole gimmick is being an ooze and then only allow them to be effective by shapeshifting back into a humanoid?
Will we get an actual playable ooze class or archetype in the future?
So are we saying it doesn't do acid damage on contact? So your party member can't even keep you in a bucket and throw you at the baddies for acid damage?
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The ooze form isn't a benefit, it's effectively a "bad thing" that the oozemorph manages to make the best of. In their natural, blobby state they're at a distinct disadvantage in a lot of ways. This is why their damage reduction and compression abilities still work outside of their ooze form. Outside of getting a (slow) climb speed, they're very vulnerable in that state.The oozemorph is mean to excel when in humanoid (or others, depending on level) form, utilizing damage reduction, compression, and morphic weaponry (on top of the remaining shifter abilities).
Dropping into blob form might be able to be creatively used to good effect, but it is primarily a drawback and should be viewed as such.
That said, oozemorphs can absolutely benefit from ioun stones in both forms.
Why make a class whose whole gimmick is being an ooze and then only allow them to be effective by shapeshifting back into a humanoid?
Will we get an actual playable ooze class or archetype in the future?
This one is playable. Slithering around as a very Tanky blob amuses and interests me.
Play a goblin and take Roll With It for extra awesome.
I think I'm just going to have to see this thing.
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I'm still looking forward to it. I'm actually fond of the whole ooze base form thing. If I can get away with the Extra Slot feat, that solves a lot of problems. The default choice here is Belt or Necklace, but what about armor?
I'm imagining a suit of armor, glistening with slime, slowly trundling towards the enemy. Quivering slime slips out of the weeping faceplate. The armor lurches forward, its backplate splitting open as a pair of bladed tendrils protrude from its squishy mass. It moves at you like a thing possessed, and that isn't too far from the truth.
Quite a delightful image, really. Maybe make a bodyguard build out of it to make up for the lack of offense in ooze form and help your buddies? Could go well with Benevolent armor.
And there's always Kitsune shenanigans if you want to play it super safe and chill
Would bracers of armor work for it?
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Would bracers of armor work for it?
Technically yes, but they'd be crafted in a forge fueled by buckets and buckets of your gold pieces. It takes 16,000 just to duplicate the effects of Mage Armor, after all. At that point you're better off just investing heavily in UMD and picking up a wand or two. Or a Handy Haversack with 280 potions.
I just had a random, stupid thought. Does the Magical Tail feat function in blob form? I don't care about the spells, I just want to look silly.
Speaking as somebody who is still extremely excited for Ultimate Wilderness (despite the controversy (which I can understand as I also was hoping for a Master of Many Forms adaptation into a base-class))
This archetype is even with the (rather negative-slanted for understandable reasons) observations still one of my most anticipated pieces but I must say the curiosity is now figuratively killing me.
So while I wait for the pdf to become legally purchasable from a 3rd party website (no credit card) and the physical copy to get shipped to a local store I want to ask the following questions:
What exactly CAN you do in ooze form?
By the sounds of this thread.... not much.
How much of a detriment is ooze-form in combat?
I understand that not being able to speak kills a lot of social potential so that's annoying but might be an interesting challenge to overcome.
What about manipulating objects? Can the ooze work a door-handle for example?
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Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.
They can definitely open a door. They can still attack, after all.
Just have a hireling follow you around and reimburse people for all the property damage.
You could have the hireling open the doors for you, but that would just be decadent.
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"Make way for sir.puddleworth"
A man in fancy dress carries a bucket with a mysterious fluid.
The bucket's contents bubble ominously.
"What's that your viscousness?" More bubbling. "Ah yes I see." He pulls a haunch of cured meat from a bag and drops it into the bucket.
... yeah could see that...
Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.
Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.
Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.
But you get two attacks.
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But you get two attacks.Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.
That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure. The classes lack of damage scaling vs the base Shifter is so disappointing. Shifter's might be pretty poor compared to Warpriest and Monk but at least it's SOMETHING.
That's what I thought but I wanted to make sure. The classes lack of damage scaling vs the base Shifter is so disappointing. Shifter's might be pretty poor compared to Warpriest and Monk but at least it's SOMETHING.But you get two attacks.Ooze form can do low-level combat just fine (when nobody is relying on magic items, having 2d6+2*Str is great). That’s about it.Did I miss something in the book because as I read it your damage is capped at 1d6+str.
I think Shifter’s scaling essentially assumes you are shifting to large size for that extra bump in size.
I’m just making a point regarding levels one through three, when you have to rely on your ooze form.
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They can still move
LOL We still need official confirmation on this. As printed, the ooze form has no listed land speed. Even running it off the base creature runs into issues, as you have oozes like a merfolk that has a 5' speed because they have no legs but why would they be significantly slower as a med ooze vs say a human ooze?
They can definitely open a door.
Maybe? Depends on what type of latch. Not having hands will prevent some door use.
They can definitely open a door.Maybe? Depends on what type of latch. Not having hands will prevent some door use.
You... kinda missed my joke there. About "still able to attack" and "property damage".
But to be fair, it does indeed depend on the door.
If it has to much hardness, your 1d6+ST per attack might not be enough to "open" it.
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Well, then you just knock on it repeatedly.
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They can still moveLOL We still need official confirmation on this. As printed, the ooze form has no listed land speed. Even running it off the base creature runs into issues, as you have oozes like a merfolk that has a 5' speed because they have no legs but why would they be significantly slower as a med ooze vs say a human ooze?
Yes that is some oddities for the different races, but this is overthinking, nothing in the archetype says they loose their speed.
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Come to think of it - can an oozemorph do combat maneuvers? It feels like they should be able to grapple.
(And I'm not just asking that because of some well-known thread involving grappling and some demon...)
I wonder how an Oozemorph/Monk would flow. Or even an Oozemorph/Brawler...
Yes that is some oddities for the different races, but this is overthinking, nothing in the archetype says they loose their speed.
It's a polymorph and the 'base' race is what's changed into. SO we know what speed you are when you change into humanoid [as you take the new speed], but there is literally no base speed for your ooze base form. So it's not that it didn't tell us it changed but that it gives us no starting point [as the blob base form has no listed speed].
Then, if we assume it keeps speeds, then does my undine have a swim speed or my strix keep fly speed?
So really, at this point we can't be sure how much if move or if it can.
Does the existence of Oozemorph mean we won't get an archetype of shifter which, like the cave druid, is a human(oid) who becomes an ooze to fight and not the other way around? Because although I genuinely like this archetype (easily one of my top 3 favorite things about the book) I still want to see options for ooze shifting that are focused on being an ooze.
Additionally, graystone, if it's an undine/ooze combo, can it have the Amphibious trait?