Atarlost |
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Atarlost wrote:Strong, can do anything, but can't do everything in the same character. That sounds like tier 2 to me.They can do everything in the same character... Just not in the same day. All Cleric builds still have access to all their spells.
The cleric can't do everything with spells without having the stats to back them up and can't have the stats for both dealing damage and forcing saves at a useful level at the same time because the combat buffs are no longer good enough to overcome poor combat stats. They just don't have the "hurting people" spells to fill the hammer role without strength (or dex and dex to damage) and lack spells to make hurting people irrelevant. Instead they have a list full of spells that fill the same handful of roles in slightly different ways.
Ckorik |
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Lemmy wrote:The cleric can't do everything with spells without having the stats to back them up and can't have the stats for both dealing damage and forcing saves at a useful level at the same time because the combat buffs are no longer good enough to overcome poor combat stats. They just don't have the "hurting people" spells to fill the hammer role without strength (or dex and dex to damage) and lack spells to make hurting people irrelevant. Instead they have a list full of spells that fill the same handful of roles in slightly different ways.Atarlost wrote:Strong, can do anything, but can't do everything in the same character. That sounds like tier 2 to me.They can do everything in the same character... Just not in the same day. All Cleric builds still have access to all their spells.
The cleric can summon pizza at level 5 and therefore fill all roles needed for party synergy.
ipso facto tier 1.
They can even summon a pizza with pineapple and one without - and a pile of oats for the odd goat person that hates pizza.
everyone wins - party time happens.
Should a monster happen to show up - the cleric can summon pizza for them also.
Lemmy |
The cleric can't do everything with spells without having the stats to back them up and can't have the stats for both dealing damage and forcing saves at a useful level at the same time because the combat buffs are no longer good enough to overcome poor combat stats. They just don't have the "hurting people" spells to fill the hammer role without strength (or dex and dex to damage) and lack spells to make hurting people irrelevant. Instead they have a list full of spells that fill the same handful of roles in slightly different ways.
What are the stats to "back it up"? Wis 16 is more than enough to let your Cleric be an problem-solving juggernaut! Hell! If you don't plan to use SoL spells, you can make do with Wis 14!
You'll still have and be more than capable of making good use of: summons, liberating command, grace, dispel magic, planar ally, plane shift, air walk, freedom of movement, heal, animate dead, gate, control weather, wall of stone, find the path, augury, stone shape, invisibility purge, divination, protection from energy, water breathing, anti-life shell, animate object, wind wall, wind walk, tongues, geas/quest and the always delightful Miracle... And etc. And that's not counting any attack/damage buffs!
Or you could have high Wisdom and buy a Guided weapon.
Gark the Goblin |
I love clerics, but I do think they're pretty Tier 1. If you're only looking at levels 1-10 then you could easily say Tier 2 - they're excellent party buffers and damage dealers, or debuffers if you prefer, but it's hard to be good at all their niches at once because of the action economy. Once planar allies and high-level outsider summons (and eventually, s+&~ like miracle) come into play, they get such versatility and power that they're easily Tier 1.
I would say they're a lot more MAD than wizards, though. It's probably easier to f@$% up your progression for maximum power - consider that in order to use all their class abilities they need to pump Strength AND Charisma, and if they want to do things like long-term healing, identifying religions, and identifying spells, they need to at least have a non-negative Intelligence modifier. I play a lot of clerics, but I fall into the latter trap frequently because I like to have stuff to do outside combats. It's honestly not bad as a balancing mechanism.
But a cleric can get by very well with just Wis and Con. The usable spells on their list are often also abusable.
master_marshmallow |
Upthread someone asked for a specific cleric story and I have one:
One of my players has a cleric in my game right now, a human named Guy Fier (based on Guy Fiery the chef). It's in my own campaign setting, and my version of "Torag" is LN. Plus we're using the Loyalty alternate rules from Unchained, so he has access to Versatile Channeler. He also has Blessed Hammer and Channel Smite. He can combine them together to get some very potent damage rolling. Plus he's a very effective healer.
His Domains are Tactics and Defense, so he has all the defensive buff spells, Shield, Shield of Faith, and Barkskin. Plus I'm a nice DM so he also gets access to Conviction from 3.5, so his saves are also through the roof. Plus his Domain gives him a built in cloak of resistance so he has no need for big six items. The bard offers up a boost to CL so he can get even bigger numbers.
He has a Guided hammer as well, though I've house ruled the ability to function like Agile, requiring Guided Hand to use properly.
Every day he cast Create Food and Water as part of role playing the party chef. Later, he bought everyone else rings of sustenance.
He's loving the character, and he's a great player and leads the party well.
Lemmy |
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I love clerics, but I do think they're pretty Tier 1. If you're only looking at levels 1-10 then you could easily say Tier 2 - they're excellent party buffers and damage dealers, or debuffers if you prefer, but it's hard to be good at all their niches at once because of the action economy. Once planar allies and high-level outsider summons (and eventually, s&$* like miracle) come into play, they get such versatility and power that they're easily Tier 1.
The only difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is the ability to "respec" what you're good at, allowing you to be good at everything (just not at the same time). Both tiers have the same raw power.
That said, I'm completely in favor of giving Clerics a few more class features... Nothing too powerful, as they are already really freaking powerful... Just something useful and interesting, so they are more fun to build.
Ranishe |
The only difference between Tier 1 and Tier 2 is the ability to "respec" what you're good at, allowing you to be good at everything (just not at the same time). Both tiers have the same raw power.
That said, I'm completely in favor of giving Clerics a few more class features... Nothing too powerful, as they are already really freaking powerful... Just something useful and interesting, so they are more fun to build.
I'm toying with the idea of making them 3/4 casters & giving them class features to augment channel energy (something along the lines of paladin mercies, but with more direct combat options for it as well). Not sure if they'd need something else as more class features for the existing class feature is a bit boring. It's basically "you know how you got channel energy as your one features? Now you get MORE channel energy!" But I'm not sure what else would fit.
Sissyl |
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As written, channel energy stinks. Sure, it's great healing at low levels, but it scales terribly. Taking the feats to improve it only makes sense in a campaign that lasts only for low levels.
Yes, they can change the spells they carry. People make MUCH of this. Yes, if a player knew what would happen, say, if they read the adventure beforehand, this would be an unbeatable advantage.
But if you don't, other mechanisms enter into it. You have a very finite number of spells per day, particularly at low levels. Due to action economy, only the highest few levels are really relevant in combat. As you guys have repeatedly stated: Clerics have spells useful in combat. They have spells useful before combat. They have spells for divining the future. They have spells for generic problem solving (such as the mighty water breathing...) They even have the option of leaving spell slots open, so they can sort-of respec given 15 minutes.
In other discussions, there is a term called Schroedinger's wizard. Whatever the situation, such a wizard always has exactly the right spell prepared, no matter how obscure. The Schroedinger's cleric is, naturally, utterly tier 1.
By the same token, the cleric is not going to have the perfect spell for every situation, as it happens. In fact, all those divinations are going to cost a significant number of slots (and at best it gives you yes/no/cryptic phrase answers). EACH COMBAT is going to cost a significant number of buffs, plus of course the spells used IN combat. And... if you do leave spell slots open, which IS a powerful option, those slots are slots you don't even have accessible in combat. It isn't something you can do a lot of, except for slots significantly lower than your higest, without losing a large part of your combat staying power.
Sure, not every problem is thrown right at you. Every now and then you get one of the two scenes that give you the option of resting those 15 minutes: Travel montages and research episodes. Take a look at the module of your choice. Is there, really, a significant number of scenes that do allow you to take 15 minutes off? I would say that in general, no, there is not. Most published modules put you in action scene after action scene, combat or not. And if they do, and your cleric needs to buff, you will need to cast those spells again to have them on if combat happens.
Given this... I find it to be arguing in bad faith that clerics are so hugely powerful because they can respec. Yes, to some degree they can. But for most people playing clerics, the situation remains: You choose a standard complement of spells, possibly with a few slots open and most of them at a lower level, and you focus on what you want to do. You will not be able to know everything that will happen to you, not even close, even if you use a lot of divination spells. You certainly can't do that, buff yourself, buff others, heal, condition removal, general problem solving, in-combat spellcasting and have open slots with the slots available. Add to this the simple fact that action economy doesn't really let you do all of this at once either.
So, I still don't see that the cleric spell list is going to let you compensate for a lack of focus. Not without a specific type of scenario where you get long stretches of time to respec at will, or a very 15 minute day.
Lemmy |
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Well Sissyl... According to your argument no one is tier 1, since there's always the possibility of picking the wrong spell. That's a sign you either misundertand the tier system or, more likely, is being intentionally obtuse for some reason... Maybe you don't like seeing a class you like being called overpowered? That's my guess, anyway...
Saying he won't always have "the perfect spell" is also disingenuous. Rarely, if ever, a caster needs the perfect spell... Often times all you need is a good enough spell, and that's far easier to have prepared...
You don't have Air Walk prepared... But you can summon a monster to carry you where you want. You don't have Purge Invisibility, but you have Dispel Magic. You didn't prepare Freedom of Movement, but have Liberating Command... Maybe you don't need to go to another plane today... But you can still use Plane Shift as a SoD effect... And so on.
Not to mention there are spells that are incredibly versatile and/or so useful that they'll rarely go unspent. Summon Monster alone add grest versatility to a character (No. You don't need a whole build to make SM good). Stone Shape, Dispel Magic and Wall of Stone are other spell that can be prepared every day with little risk of not being useful. Freedom of Movement and Air Walk last a long time and not only are amazingly useful in combat, but also give the character the ability to deal with countless out-of-combat obstacles. Animate Dead has permanent effects...
And PCs usually have at least an idea of what they'll be fighting that day... They aren't just randomly teported to completely unknown scenarios with completely unknown enemies and challenges.
The only "specialization" a Cleric needs is a little Str or Dex and taking a few combat feats like any other character if they want to be warriors... But even without that, they can use Guided weapons, summons and/or undead minions to effectively fulfill the front-liner role... Even if they aren't the ones swinging the sword.
Lemmy |
Oh, yeah... You also don't need "a significant number of buffs" every combat...Unless you're having nothing but boss fights, chances are you can use 1 or 2 spells and be completely fine... Sometimes not even that.
And you can craft stuff too... Have a scroll for the more niche spells and you'll be completely fine. No more guessing if you'll need "Remove Blindness" or "Daylight" today.
bigrig107 |
@Sissyl: so, to be a true "Tier 1 class", you have to be capable of fulfilling every single party niche at once, effectively becoming a party all by yourself? Because that seems to be what you're stating.
You never answered what an actual Tier 1 class looks like to you; could you perhaps answer that now, to give us a point of reference for what you deem "Tier 1" worthy?
Sissyl |
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Well Sissyl... According to your argument no one is tier 1, since there's always the possibility of picking the wrong spell. That's a sign you either misundertand the tier system or, more likely, is beinv intentionally obtuse for some reason... Maybe you don't lime seeing a class you like being called overpowered?
I have played enough wizards to know what a tier 1 class is. And no, I know a cleric can be massively powerful, but as I have repeatedly said, that requires them to focus. I don't mind anyone saying clerics are powerful, I mind them basing that on doubtful information and making it a buzzword. I also mind people saying I am intentionally obtuse.
Saying he won't always have "the perfect spell" is also disingenuous. Rarely, if ever, a caster need the perfect spell... Often times all you need is a good enough spell, and that's far easier to have prepared...Indeed. But with that comes a loss of power, wouldn't you agree. A good enough spell is not as good as the perfect spell, I would think that is obvious.
You don't have Air Walk prepared... But you can summon a monster to carry you where you want. You don't have Purge Invisibility, but you have Dispel Magic. You didn't prepare Freedom of Movement, but have Liberating Command... Maybe you don't need to go to another plane today... But you can still use Plane Shift as a SoD effrct... And so on.
Dispel magic is one of the spells that usually makes it into the prepared list. It still requires a caster level check, and you often meet casters more powerful than you, giving you a less than 50% to succeed. Plane shift, again. requires getting up close and without a maxed out save DC, often doesn't help at all. And yes, freedom of movement is great - if you go underwater, or fight something that grapples etc. Otherwise, it is dead in your list, and could be used to cure serious wounds at best.
Not to mention there are spells that are incredibly versatile and/or so useful that they'll rarely go unspent. Summon Monster alone add grest versatility to a character (No. You don't need a whole build to make SM good). Stone Shape, Dispel Magic and all of Stone are other spell that can be prepared every day with little risk of not being useful. Freedom of Movement and Air Walk last a long time and not only are amazingly useful in combat, but also give the character the ability to deal with countless out-of-combat obstacles. Animate Dead has permanent effects...
No, SM can be useful. You can send your celestial dire badger into what you believe is a trap. That is always useful. If you want them for combat, please tell me how a CR 4 (with SM 4, CL 7) or 1d3 CR 3 creatures will effectively impact a battle appropriate for a level 7 party, i.e. against an encounter EL 7-11? With std action summoning, Augmented Summoning and Superior Summoning, sure. Without them, don't bother. I suppose I don't see the sheer power you do in Wall of stone, but I admit it can be useful at times.
And PC usually have at least an idea of what they'll be fighting that day... They aren't randomly teported to completely unknown scenarios.
They might. In my experience, the unknown opponents outnumber the known. The first real chance you have to learn about them is when you're in physical proximity. At that point, sure, take your fifteen minutes to respec. I am sure your party will manage 150 rounds without you. Augury, Divination and whatnot gets you yes/no answers or cryptic hints (yaaaaay) at best. So, at a cost of 1 spell slot each, how many such questions do you put? But, perhaps this is a GM style issue. What I do know is that as soon as the boxed text in a scenario ends with "they draw their weapons and attack", you're hosed.
The only "specialization" a Cleric needs is a little Str or Dex and taking a few combat feats like any other character if they want to be warriors... But even without that they can use Guided Aeapons, summons and/or undead minions to effectively fulfill the front-liner role... Even if they aren't the ones swinging the sword.
As a cleric, you have NO class options beyond medium armor that boost your melee capability. Depending on your definition of "want to be warriors", I would argue they need quite a bit more than "a little Str or Dex and taking a few combat feats". A guided weapon lets you hit better, but doesn't give you wis to damage, resulting in your standard 1d8+2 or so, which generally fails to be impressive at level 3 or so. Summons, we have already discussed. Undead minions... well, I don't know what to tell you if you believe zombies are any sort of good solution for front-line fighting.
Sissyl |
@Sissyl: so, to be a true "Tier 1 class", you have to be capable of fulfilling every single party niche at once, effectively becoming a party all by yourself? Because that seems to be what you're stating.
You never answered what an actual Tier 1 class looks like to you; could you perhaps answer that now, to give us a point of reference for what you deem "Tier 1" worthy?
You have to be able to do everything, and often better than the specialists at it. That was the definition touted. Clerics can't do that, since they require too much guesswork in preparing them. The ability to respec doesn't matter if you don't have the time needed to do so, nor the action economy. A cleric can become a great meleer, a great summoner, a decent blaster, and so on - but they need to invest (primarily in feats) to get there, and that specialization doesn't change once taken. The description of why clerics in 3.5 were tier 1 depended on stuff that did not transition - and let them, yes, be huge in melee, blasting, summoning and everything else AT THE SAME TIME.
A wizard is as close to tier 1 as anyone will get. The party hangs on your actions. If you want to do something, you can find a way to do it even with a pretty rough complement of spells. The feeling is entirely different from playing a cleric.
Lemmy |
You're not the only one who played Clerics ans Wizards, Sissyl... I gave you multiple examples of how a Cleric could avoid any specialization and still be great at dealing with nearly all challenges...
Maybe you should answer bigrig and tell us what you consider to be Tier 1, because it seems you have impossibly high standards for that... Apparently, if a class isn't the best at everything all the time, you don't consider them tier 1.
bigrig107 |
bigrig107 wrote:A cleric can become a great meleer, a great summoner, a decent blaster, and so on - but they need to invest (primarily in feats) to get there, and that specialization doesn't change once taken.@Sissyl: so, to be a true "Tier 1 class", you have to be capable of fulfilling every single party niche at once, effectively becoming a party all by yourself? Because that seems to be what you're stating.
You never answered what an actual Tier 1 class looks like to you; could you perhaps answer that now, to give us a point of reference for what you deem "Tier 1" worthy?
And....how does the wizard change any of this, exactly?
EDIT: also:
A wizard is as close to tier 1 as anyone will get.
So, you're admitting that there aren't any true Tier 1 classes under your definition?
If so, why have a Tier 1?Under your definition, clerics and wizards become Tier 2, and Tier 1 is empty. Which makes wizards/clerics Tier 1 again.
Sissyl |
Because there was a tier 1 in 3.5. Things CHANGED with PF, you know?
A wizard needs Intelligence, as much of it as early as possible, all the time. So long as that save DC is ahead of the curve, and his ability to overcome spell resistance is up to specs, the wizard can be confident that everything he does will be pretty much awesome. A standard loadout of the most powerful and versatile spells means he can do pretty much everything. He will outdamage the fighter, he will outsneak the thief, in short, pretty much everything except heal. Feats and equipment give him options BEYOND this. The cleric has to choose, and needs to specialize to be awesome.
Sissyl |
A few good burning bloody skeletons do make a good replacement for the frontliners, and clerics make the best necromancer as far as I can see, so I think they've got that covered. (Well, in neutral-to-evil parties at least, depending.)
Considering that bloody skeletons are CR 1/2, and burning skeletons are CR 1/2, I doubt the skeleton, even if a bigger skeleton, will be able to replace a frontline fighter.
andreww |
IronVanguard wrote:A few good burning bloody skeletons do make a good replacement for the frontliners, and clerics make the best necromancer as far as I can see, so I think they've got that covered. (Well, in neutral-to-evil parties at least, depending.)Considering that bloody skeletons are CR 1/2, and burning skeletons are CR 1/2, I sincerely doubt that.
You realise that you can make skeletons from things other than 1HD humanoids yes?
Because if you didn't that would be really quite embarrassing.
Sissyl |
Sissyl wrote:IronVanguard wrote:A few good burning bloody skeletons do make a good replacement for the frontliners, and clerics make the best necromancer as far as I can see, so I think they've got that covered. (Well, in neutral-to-evil parties at least, depending.)Considering that bloody skeletons are CR 1/2, and burning skeletons are CR 1/2, I sincerely doubt that.You realise that you can make skeletons from things other than 1HD humanoids yes?
Because if you didn't that would be really quite embarrassing.
Oh, indeed. It is possible to make those. It is not clear if you can have both templates, but if you can, that is four times the cost in HD. So, a tenth level cleric animating a burning, bloody skeleton could animate twenty HD, divided by four, which is five hit dice. It is then normal when counting control, meaning the cleric can have eight of them. Note that each of these then has 33 hp, using the higher charisma of the two templates. I sincerely doubt that will be more than a bother in a fight between two groups at EL 10, let alone the EL 14 the level 10 group will be expected to encounter. Yes, very embarrassing.