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Does anybody have any examples from their games of a cleric getting "out of hand"?(Chokes and coughs.) I still hate myself for accidentally ruining Mundane's 7th-8th level "Underwater All-Stars" campaign. She told us it would be very challenging, so I dutifully rolled up a cleric, ignored Str and Dex, and jacked up my Wis and Cha as high as I could. We all had to play underwater races, which I took as a hint, and grabbed the Water domain. Our group also had an ubercharger cavalier and some kind of dashing skirmisher guy.
The adventure was mostly investigation and social stuff, which I inadvertently dominated, because after the skirmisher bought Dex, Str, Con, he didn't have much left for Int and Cha. I was making all the Sense Motive checks, and discerning lies and so on, and even untrained, Bluff wasn't that hard against mooks. I could also summon spies and minions, and cast divination, etc., etc. All this was effective enough that we got too close to the BBEG too quickly, and she attacked us with everything she had.
Which I'd expected. We allowed ourselves to be caught in an underwater place, and a lot of souped-up underwater monsters attacked. I told the cavalier who to charge and he 1-shotted the disguised BBEG. Then I cast lower water and a couple other choice spells, and the rest was anticlimactic. The skirmisher said, "Why am I even here? He just finished the entire adventure solo."
I tried to talk up the cavalier's killing of the BBEG as the real key to the adventure, but I don't think he believed me.
In retrospect, I wish I'd played a fire oracle or something. Even if we'd all died, I'd feel better about myself.
This is quite similar to a story of mine from 3.5, but more involved. Our Epic level game was little more than a railroad, dropping our high level characters into set piece fights. But we were all noobs at the time and didn't really care as long as we were hitting things with sticks.
Then we added one of our other GMs for a session. He brought a fey cleric, 17 or 18th level compared to our 20 due to his racial level adjustment. We were ambushed on the second floor of an inn in the night and proceeded to fend off the assassins. The cleric proceeded to begin summoning.
The next round, an elder earth elemental appeared. And he began summoning again. The next round, there were two. The GM had to conclude that the structural integrity of the building was compromised and gave us a round to escape. The cleric had the elementals earth glide through the falling rubble, gather everyone up, including the enemy, and deposit us outside.
Then he blamed everyone on the assassins when the town guard arrived looking for answers.
Summoning is great... If your character is built for it. Spell focus (conjuration), Augment Summoning, Sacred Summons, and Superior Summoning, yeah, now we're talking. Without them, not so much. Take a look at the creatures summoned. The CRs are significantly lower than your CL. Use the wrong critter and you have extra bodies on the field that are safely ignored by the opposition because they don't hit, and everybody makes their saves against them. Drowning the battle mat in useless critters is, to nobody's surprise, useless. Oh, and without std action summoning, don't even try. The action economy is awful.
Eh, even if you stop at Augment Summons you can be very strong. Action Economy is a problem to work around, but if the party has someone already rushing to melee you can manage it via the following: Move to cover, use the start full round action action to summon, then use the finish full round action action and move to where you need to be. As for the usefulness, this is mostly true if you use summons as melee brutes to try and outpace the fighter. They have special abilities like trample, grab, trip, and the occasional SLA that adds debuff, control, and aoe options. Add in that they can be used out of fights to trigger traps or retrieve things and they have uses. Also, every attack the summon makes is a reason an enemy might swing at them. Every attack made against a summon is a wasted action.
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How are you getting 230 hp on a storm bolts.... 160 would be maximized, 160+80 = 230 - but that would require a maximized and empowered. Maximized is 3 levels higher. Empowered is +2 - so you can't memorize the spell with either - and you can only use one rod at a time.
So... how goes?
I get this a lot, because in PVP if your opponent can convince the GM that your build is invalid it's cool to win via DQ.
It's 8th. You have a trait for reducing meta magic levels, no not the one limited to 3rd level spells. So 8+2-1 = 9. You use one rod for quicken and one meta magic gem for maximize to do a quicken empowered + maximized empowered in the same turn.
Stormbolts because its Fortitude not Reflex and 20d8.
Basically comes down to your build needs to be able to survive a successful saved Stormbolt double hit (max/empower+empowered) with +2/die extra then your opponent gets to take 4 of them and no PC except a cleric could do that (quicken mass heal in between).
The force sphere doesn't appear to be an "object". That would imply a creation spell.
meta magic gem
Well I'll be.... I didn't even know about this item. I am always happy when I discover new things that are cool - and I like these even though they cost a ton. Although they aren't level limited like a rod either.
Wizards can do this with a trait - and aren't limited on what they can summon with it.
Mind sharing that one? Looks neat.
Wizards can do this with a trait - and aren't limited on what they can summon with it.Mind sharing that one? Looks neat.
+1. Because I've never seen that trait.
Okay, you get Augment Summoning. This lets you get up a single dire lion at level 9. The dire lion is CR 5. It has a +4 to Str and Con. This means it gets a few extra hp, +2 Will, +2 to hit and some extra damage. The celestial template gives it DR and a smite. Generously, if you say this corresponds to a +1 CR, you just used a full round to summon a creature three CR below your own. And the big cats are the ones usually touted as "beatsticks" for summoning.
Let us go even higher. Perhaps then it gets better? Summon monster 8 gets you an elder elemental. You are level 15. The single elemental you get is CR 11, plus the various modifiers that no longer correspond to a +1 CR. Note that the massive power of the elder earth elementals above was manifested through the GM deciding the inn was not structurally stable due to the mere presence of the creatures - under those circumstances, a normal rat would be overpowered.
Let us move on to the much-touted SLA critters. The bralani azata with its lightning bolt is a good example. With summon monster 5, the bralani is CR 6, and does 6d6, Reflex DC 15 for half. This computes to 21 pts, save for half on a somewhat mediocre save. Meanwhile, the cleric lvl 9 has several options to do more damage himself, of which the most iconic is flame strike for 9d6, Reflex DC 15+Wis mod for half, 30 pts. Note that I am certainly not saying flame strike is a powerful option, just that a single bralani is not going to make a dent in the battle of 9th level characters.
And so it goes on. Everyone thinks summoning is all that, in truth it is far more balanced than it seems. Sure, for long battles, it is ace. Some creatures are insane, like the lantern archon. But in general, to truly make it spectacular and properly powerful, you NEED to invest the feats.
Okay, you get Augment Summoning.
You are looking at CR as if it matters. Augment summoning is all you need to keep to-hit real close to martials. Especially once you add the easy flank bonus.
Furthermore, they have HP. Every hit a summon takes is a net gain for the party.
AND you get to summon what works best for the situation. A lot of the time I just use earth elementals because all we need is a flanker that smacks things. Sometimes you need demons, or pounces, or heal bots, air elementals, or one of the million other useful tricks.
I've played characters that dominated combat by just summoning one monster and then cowering. I decided one day to just make a garbage sorcerer. Start 15 cha, then pump it with levels. Dragon bloodline, CRB feats, random spells, human with favored class bonus HP, ect. The only competent thing I put on that sheet was spell focus conjuration, augment summoning, and summon monster 1-9.
It wrecked every combat. The GM tried to focus me, but then instead of cowering, I just started summoning more. The GM let me cower from that point on.
Every druid I've played always works because it can spont summon. I've had level 7 master summoners fight CR 14 encounters basically solo. It doesn't matter how low op or high op the campaign is, summoning always works.
The only caveat is that you have to know your summon monsters inside and out. Aside from that build skill is irrelevant on a summoner.
Did you know warpriest get great summoning at level 10 with animal, plant, law, chaos, evil, and good blessings? Boom auto good character after level 10.
Now summoning isn't what makes tier 1, but it is a dominating tactical power.
I'll remind you that elder earth elementals are 60k lbs. Would you disagree that 60 tons of weight exceeds the limit for a stone and mortar building?
Yes, cause they can just earth glide and ignore all weight problems. :P
Even so, what the GM did was clearly a house rule. Would you disagree with that, TOZ?
Rhedyn: CR matters. It sets up the combat statistics of the creatures, and yes, there have been errors in calculating this, but we are talking about discrepancies of several CRs. You claim that all you need to do to "wreck" encounters is to summon one creature and then cower. Fine, what creature? Let us say you are level 7. You and the other party members are facing a group of four CR 8 creatures. You get to summon one creature to "wreck" that encounter, which one do you choose? Or does this change if it is fewer enemies? Which creature do you use to "wreck" an encounter with a CR 12 creature? The mighty deinonychus? The powerful dire ape? The mighty medium elemental? Or perhaps the magnificent rhinoceros? Do tell. Please.
Legio: Exactly my thought about it. I have been claiming all along that you need to invest the feats into it for summoning to matter. And it seems you agree, since you summon 1d3+1 or 1d4+2 creatures. They even claim that you only need to summon ONE creature. It is a step in trying to claim that clerics are so hugely powerful, that they don't even need to put in the feats for summoning to be huge. Thank you for understanding. It seems you have some inkling about what you're talking about.
Rhedyn: CR matters. It sets up the combat statistics of the creatures, and yes, there have been errors in calculating this, but we are talking about discrepancies of several CRs. You claim that all you need to do to "wreck" encounters is to summon one creature and then cower. Fine, what creature? Let us say you are level 7. You and the other party members are facing a group of four CR 8 creatures. You get to summon one creature to "wreck" that encounter, which one do you choose? Or does this change if it is fewer enemies? Which creature do you use to "wreck" an encounter with a CR 12 creature? The mighty deinonychus? The powerful dire ape? The mighty medium elemental? Or perhaps the magnificent rhinoceros? Do tell. Please.
One does not simply look at the CR to pick a summon.
Are they on the ground or in the air?
Are there a bunch of mooks or one big guy?
Is the foe an APL+4 dragon?
Sometimes you cyclone through 15+ birdman monsters with an air elemental. Sometimes you just bring an earth elemental for smacking. Sometimes you are in an oh-s!%+ moment and spam lantern archons.
You see a trivial few CR differences, I see bringing the right monster for every fight.
But yeah, summon monster 4, your go-to for generic encounter is the Bison with it's +14(flanking) for 2d6+15 damage. As a summoner, single attack monsters are sexier because eat up less of the most important resource, turn time.
Against the APL+5 encounter, you are probably spamming the 1d3 lantern archons unless it's a low AC caster type. Then probably air elementals to keep up with all the flying and teleportation. At APL+5 you spam. Lantern archons aren't tons of damage but in unfair APL+5 encounters some damage is a pretty big deal and the mass magic circles help too.
Legio: Exactly my thought about it. I have been claiming all along that you need to invest the feats into it for summoning to matter. And it seems you agree, since you summon 1d3+1 or 1d4+2 creatures. They even claim that you only need to summon ONE creature. It is a step in trying to claim that clerics are so hugely powerful, that they don't even need to put in the feats for summoning to be huge. Thank you for understanding. It seems you have some inkling about what you're talking about.
I still maintain that augment summoning is needed. But that is 2 feats not a build
But spamming creatures in batches of 1d3+1 is quite effective, especially if you summon as a std action. I hear you. Sadly, by that point a cleric is already up to four feats (Augmented, Superior and Sacred, plus the ever-useless feat tax Spell Focus (conjuration)). Summoners are quite a different issue. Four feats means a human can get the next feat at level seven, everyone else can start their secondary build at level nine.
Rhedyn, the bison does decent damage. 2d6+15 is 22 points average. Given flanking, you will need a 13+ to hit the guideline AC of 27 for a CR 12 creature, meaning it will miss 60% of the time. This puts your average damage at 8 points per round. Considering that this will kill the average CR 12 creature in no more than 20 rounds, you will have to excuse me for not seeing the "wrecking" going on here...
I'll remind you that elder earth elementals are 60k lbs. Would you disagree that 60 tons of weight exceeds the limit for a stone and mortar building?Yes, cause they can just earth glide and ignore all weight problems. :P
you can't earthglide through worked floors. You put a 60k golem on a building's roof, he's going to wind up in the basement.
According to what rule, Drahliana? I am aware this is what RW physics would do, but is there a rule about weight somewhere I am not aware of? Also, depending on your definitions, the fact that summons can't be summoned into an environment that does not support them may be a problem. :-)
Rhedyn, the bison does decent damage. 2d6+15 is 22 points average. Given flanking, you will need a 13+ to hit the guideline AC of 27 for a CR 12 creature, meaning it will miss 60% of the time. This puts your average damage at 8 points per round. Considering that this will kill the average CR 12 creature in no more than 20 rounds, you will have to excuse me for not seeing the "wrecking" going on here...
no in an apl+5 you spam lantern archons.
Obviously one spell isn't going to wreck encounters you aren't suppose to be fighting.
you can't earthglide through worked floors.
Yes you can.
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I'll remind you that elder earth elementals are 60k lbs. Would you disagree that 60 tons of weight exceeds the limit for a stone and mortar building?
I work at a steel processing plant, actually, and that's only the weight of one coil of steel. Now, if we're taking upper floors, it depends on the building's structural integrity, and that's certainly the DM's call to make, but we have literally hundreds of coils of steel in our plant. Just food for thought.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about ground floor, here, hence my structural integrity of upper floors comment, above.
Pathfinder doesn't seem to have meaningful rules for burrowing, which earthglide basically is. But I see nothing to suggest you are weightless while using earthglide.
Pathfinder doesn't seem to have meaningful rules for burrowing, which earthglide basically is. But I see nothing to suggest you are weightless while using earthglide.
Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
IMHO: the whole building falling down feels like a sign of its presence.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm talking about ground floor, here, hence my structural integrity of upper floors comment, above.We were on the second floor.
There are certainly classical, medival, and renaissance period (the argument could be made for golarion/most dnd settings to match up with any of these periods technology wise) that can take that weight at upper floors. It really just depends on the structure. There are classical structures have better withstood earthquakes and explosives then modern steel and concrete buildings.
That said, given there isn't an actual in game rule involving the weight of creatures besides carrying capacity, I would say collapsing the upper floor of an in tact building made of stone because of the weight of the creature on the upper floor is definitely a house rule more then a ruling. Rulings interpret rules that exist, they don't create new one from whole cloth.
We obviously have different definitions of 'house rule' and 'ruling'.
That is certainly fair. But my point still stands. When real life pre modern stone and mortar structures can be stronger then concrete and steel, it seems silly to make such a ruling in a fantasy world. And at the very least, the player doing the summoning should have been warned about it.
Pathfinder doesn't seem to have meaningful rules for burrowing, which earthglide basically is. But I see nothing to suggest you are weightless while using earthglide.Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
IMHO: the whole building falling down feels like a sign of its presence.
It's burrowing doesn't leave a presence, but if it's just standing there, it's not burrowing and its weight could bring the floor down.
It's burrowing doesn't leave a presence, but if it's just standing there, it's not burrowing and its weight could bring the floor down.Pathfinder doesn't seem to have meaningful rules for burrowing, which earthglide basically is. But I see nothing to suggest you are weightless while using earthglide.Earth Glide (Ex) A burrowing earth elemental can pass through stone, dirt, or almost any other sort of earth except metal as easily as a fish swims through water. If protected against fire damage, it can even glide through lava. Its burrowing leaves behind no tunnel or hole, nor does it create any ripple or other sign of its presence. A move earth spell cast on an area containing a burrowing earth elemental flings the elemental back 30 feet, stunning the creature for 1 round unless it succeeds on a DC 15 Fortitude save.
IMHO: the whole building falling down feels like a sign of its presence.
Correct.
But if they were gliding just their feat in the floor, then everything is fine.
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If they are gliding then they couldn't do anything else because that would also leave a sign of its presence.
If they are gliding then they couldn't do anything else because that would also leave a sign of its presence.
Nah, attack rolls have clear rules.
Ah, the mental gymnastics failed it's landing...
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if they were opaque you couldn't understand them. If they are clear, you can't see them, but you can understand them perfectly.
Nah, attack rolls have clear rules.Wait, how do you read them if they are clear? Shouldn't they be opaque?
Reading is magic and read magic is a cantrip so reading is easy.
Kobold,
Do you feel like your question about Cleric OP'ness was answered?
One thing that was left out is that clerics can and do easily fix conditions that virtually no other class can fix, also better and faster.
Run the first 4 PC levels of Rappan Athuk without a divine primary class. you whole team will be dead multiple times over from disease, poison, drain, grapple, etc.
People get the tier 1-ness of offensive classes because they proactively cast. Clerics are half proactive casters (mostly buffs) and half reactive fixers. Their reactive fixing is actually sickenly powerful and adds to the fun level of other players a lot.
Add on top of that the diverse options of channel (hangover for instance is an entire class's power level all by itself).
Add on top of that the strong combat presence, with the ability to buff higher than a fighter.
They summon AND planar ally, which is a sickening spell.
A good example is that our 5th level party was attacked by 12 enhanced gargoyles. Should have been a TPK. Our hangover cleric daze locked nearly all of them for 8 rounds, despite being focused. This didn't even impact her spells per day. not a single party member went incap. All of the gargoyles died, despite their silly DR. The party dusted off and kept adventuring. Only a tier 1 class can achieve this result with such an OP encounter.
Even vanilla, I would pick a 1-20 cleric in the 1 or 2 slot in any new party, unless a bunch of partial casters wanted to support a druid.
+1. Because I've never seen that trait.Wizards can do this with a trait - and aren't limited on what they can summon with it.Mind sharing that one? Looks neat.
Going to apologize - it's a feat not a trait - it's called Acadame Graduate - it's out of the curse of the crimson throne player's guide.
Acadamae Graduate (Local)
You have graduated from the magical acadamy.
Prerequisites: Specialist wizard level 1st, cannot have conjuration as a forbidden school.
Benefit: Whenever you cast a prepared arcane spell from the conjuration (summoning) school that takes longer than a standard action to cast, reduce the casting time by one round (to a minimum casting time of one standard action). Casting a spell in this way is taxing and requires a Fortitude save (DC 15 + spell level) to resist becoming fatigued.