Unless I'm missing something, what about the Street Performer for Bard? It trades all of its buffs for cruddy party tricks that do or pretend to do what the Bard spell list already can.
Unless I'm missing something, what about the Street Performer for Bard? It trades all of its buffs for cruddy party tricks that do or pretend to do what the Bard spell list already can.
Gladhandling is actually super broken if built around. Get a way to get around how many steps you can raise attitudes (Diabolic Negotiator for instance), pump Bluff or your appropriate Versatile Performance skill sky high (also why not Peageant of the Peacock to turn all that pump into also working on all int skills and checks), and then standard action roll Bluff to turn any enemy that can understand you from Hostile to Helpful. Sure it lasts 1 minute, but there is nothing there to stop you from doing it every minute. They may go down a step technically, but they can't get below Hostile.
All that only really requires a level 1 or 2 dip into Bard though. So yeah, Street Performer still belongs here but there are more reasons than the ones you listed.
I have reread your posts and still boil them down to the following:
* The Cleric spell list doesn't fill the same roles the Wizard list does so it doesn't work. Clerics are not Wizards, and you probably shouldn't be playing them like one.
* The lack of Armor and Shield proficiencies makes it impossible to get up close and there's no way to mitigate that. The Ecclesitheurge is meant to be a...Blessing of the Faithful is useless in combat that much is obvious.And as a pre-combat buff its weak and has a horrendous duration.
If all your saying its good for is a +2 buff on out of combat skill checks.... then thats pretty poor as well.
1) In a lot of cases its possible to just take 10 or even take 20.. making it redundant
2) Clerics are NOT skill monkeys... I doubt a party has existed where this has been the case! Rogues and such like make the skill checks NOT clerics!
3) The archetype is all about becoming more caster... not using a standard action for weak out of combat skill buffs.... see again take 10/20.The archetype is quite obviously supposed to be more wizardy (ermmm.... bonded item and crap armour?!?!) and I seem to recall the designer stating that intent in a post!!
The archetype via its design puts the cleric out of harms way... but this does cause limbo problems... I've played clerics who were buffers/debufers and several of their spells are close range or touch. With the ECC this is now an extremely risky option due to the poor AC. In essence he is forced out. This is compounded by not having access to the "get of jail free" type spells from the wizard list.
Poor AC is less of an issue for Wizards because their spells and their party role doesnt require them to be in the 'danger zone'. Not so the cleric.... for the ECC coming up against regular melee attacks and AOO is a recipe for disaster. I'm not talking about the ECC trying to hit something with a weapon!!!
Effectively by keeping it D8 HD and 3/4 BAB Paizo are wasting the archetype.......
At early levels playing a caster cleric, you run out of spells quickly - you get 3 level 1 spells per day at first, and around Level 5 you almost have enough for a whole day. What do you propose the caster does when they need to conserve resources? Twiddle their thumbs? With Blessing, even your weaker turns are spent buffing the party and helping allies hit. That is when you get the most use out of it - early level combats. Later on it becomes more of an out-of-combat buff to help pass skill checks - and no, you're not using it on yourself (you seriously thought I would say the cleric is a skill monkey? Really?). Combined with Guidance, you're granting a +3 to skill checks out of combat all day, every day. That's like giving an ally Skill Focus before level 10, and 1/2 Skill Focus afterwards. That's nothing to sneeze at. And before you say "Oh you can just take 10 or 20, nbd" you have to realize there are some skill checks you cannot do that on - Disable Device, Knowledge, Stealth, and UMD to name a few. Every bonus helps.
If you can't think of something to do from the back lines, let me help you.
If you have problems with touch-range harmful spells, then take Reach Spell. Get a Rod of Reach Spell. Use one of the many buffs you get to increase your AC. Dip a level in monk. Wizards have been dealing with their lack of armor since the core rulebook. Hell, if your party has an arcane caster like a wizard, witch, or magus, buy them a Pearl of Power and ask them to cast Mage Armor on you. There are so many solutions to bypassing the touch-range issues that you'd have to be blind to miss them (there are spells for that too). You even have more health and CMD than the typical wizard. Between the two, the Ecclesitheurge has more close-range spells, but even that is typically enough to stay in the back.
Sure the Wizard is better at dealing with large groups of enemies at a distance. It's part of what makes him good. The Cleric is great at providing buffs to allies and debuffing from close-medium range. For some games that might not be enough, but after running a whole campaign I can tell you most fights don't start far enough away for the distance to matter.
Thunderstriker Fighter.
It used to be that the Thunderstriker was the go-to archetype for characters who wanted to mix up two handed weapons and two weapon fighting. It was incredibly feat intensive, but it made for an extremely versatile melee character who could switch between defense and offense better than any other class.
Then the "metaphorical hands" FAQ came out and dumped pretty much all the Thunderstriker's class features into the garbage.
Then the "metaphorical hands" FAQ came out and dumped pretty much all the Thunderstriker's class features into the garbage.
Would you happen to have a link to the actual FAQ in question? I've heard the gist of it before but now that I think about I'm not sure if I ever actually saw the exact wording myself. Or are we extrapolating from the Armor Spikes/Two handed weapon FAQ?
Then the "metaphorical hands" FAQ came out and dumped pretty much all the Thunderstriker's class features into the garbage.Would you happen to have a link to the actual FAQ in question? I've heard the gist of it before but now that I think about it I've never actually seen the exact wording myself.
Someone else want to help me out on this one? I hate trying to navigate Paizo's FAQ log. Its really poorly organized and takes me forever to find things.
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That's the one that started it all. I remember a deeper explanation by a designer, but I don't remember if that was an FaQ or a messageboard post.
Thanks for the info. I started thinking that's the FAQ you meant but then I wasn't sure if it was supplanted by a more in-depth response. Maybe if I get bored later I'll dig around.
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The Spellscar Drifter It trades out much of the cavalier's charge-related abilities for firearm-related ones, including a free gun. What's missing? Challenge remains melee-only, so you can't use it with your gun.
My Spellscar Drifter uses a gun in one hand, and a whip in the other.
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The Empyreal Knight: A promising idea with some cool abilities - but 3 big problems...
3) It seriously discourages Aasimar, the most quintessential race for Paladins, from taking the Archetype since some of the abilities replicate Aasimar racial features without appearing to have any ability to stack;
Actually, what this allows you to do is trade out the Aasimar's elemental resistances for alternate racial features. Resistance to death effects or SR vs evil are both extremely cool options.
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- The Homunculist, who can't actually make a Homunculus (but instead gets a familiar that's called Homunculus. You know, the thing the other Alchemists get as a simple discovery without giving up their poisons and mutagens).
You can get Mutagen back with a discovery as well, and the Homunculus gets Evolution points. So if you want both Mutagen and a familiar the question is whether you prefer Evolution points or poison.
The archetype via its design puts the cleric out of harms way... but this does cause limbo problems... I've played clerics who were buffers/debufers and several of their spells are close range or touch. With the ECC this is now an extremely risky option due to the poor AC. In essence he is forced out. This is compounded by not having access to the "get of jail free" type spells from the wizard list.
Our party has an oracle with the wrecker curse. He doesn't wear armour, uses touch and non-touch effects, and does fine. Usually gets Mage Armour from a team-mate, uses Shield of Faith in big fights. He's gotten smacked a few times, but not as badly as the vivisectionist alchemist. Lack of armour is inconvenient, but if you're careful it's not crippling, and the increased versatility is pretty significant.
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What I find humorous is that for the Eccliseatheurge people are hating on being a poor.caster due to not havig good spells for playing a caster type.. but if you hope over to Oracle threads, there are more than a few people who have declared tha Oracles actually make pretty decent casters and the spell list actually hase good spells for casting afyer like... level 2
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The archetype via its design puts the cleric out of harms way... but this does cause limbo problems...
I've played a PFS support cleric. By about level 8 or so his AC was pretty much irrelevant except for stopping an occasional iterative. He would have been better as an Ecclesitheurge once he got past the very early levels where flanking/aiding/providing another target were actually useful things to do.
I've got a different L13 cleric in a home game who would definitely benefit from the Archetype. It would change his back story too much for me to consider taking it at this point but, mechanically, its more win than loss.
With respect to the Myrmidarch Magus, I see the problems people point out (inluding in the Myrmidarch Magus guide), but I wonder if we're looking at the Myrmidarch for the wrong use. Yes, the Ranged Spellstrike is broken in a bad way, but I wonder if Myrmidarch could be built to work as a decent two-handed weapon melee Magus who just happens to start moonlighting in archery later on. Need to do more study about this (when I get back to where I can read on a real monitor with no data plan limit instead of on a phone).
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Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Rake would be a decent option... except it doesn't stack with Thug, and involves building around the same gimmick (Intimidate checks) as Thug, so if you want an Intimidator rogue, you go Thug and therefore not Rake.
I was totally gonna say Crossbowman too.
I think Blight Druid deserves mention. Lose your animal companion in exchange for your choice of a familiar As in, a weaker animal companion) or a few additional domains? Meh. Your wild empathy is at a -4 penalty, in exchange for being able to use it on vermin? In a certain campaign, sure, but still meh. But the real winner is that at 5th level, you become a liability to your party as nobody can tolerate standing next to you without having to make Fortitude saves. Congratulations, you're now playing as that guy you knew from high school who never bathed and nobody liked.
Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Rake would be a decent option... except it doesn't stack with Thug, and involves building around the same gimmick (Intimidate checks) as Thug, so if you want an Intimidator rogue, you go Thug and therefore not Rake.
I was totally gonna say Crossbowman too.
I think Blight Druid deserves mention. Lose your animal companion in exchange for your choice of a familiar As in, a weaker animal companion) or a few additional domains? Meh. Your wild empathy is at a -4 penalty, in exchange for being able to use it on vermin? In a certain campaign, sure, but still meh. But the real winner is that at 5th level, you become a liability to your party as nobody can tolerate standing next to you without having to make Fortitude saves. Congratulations, you're now playing as that guy you knew from high school who never bathed and nobody liked.
From a roleplaying perspective you are right.
But PF seems to be more balanced about rollplaying and from the pure power aspect miasma isn't too bad because once you make the save you are fine for the day. So you "just" have to drag your party through a really bad pre-breakfast experience and you have a nice ability that might keep enemies away from you.Not that most groups wouldn't give someone like that the boot if it was for "real".
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I think Blight Druid deserves mention. Lose your animal companion in exchange for your choice of a familiar As in, a weaker animal companion) or a few additional domains? Meh. Your wild empathy is at a -4 penalty, in exchange for being able to use it on vermin? In a certain campaign, sure, but still meh. But the real winner is that at 5th level, you become a liability to your party as nobody can tolerate standing next to you without having to make Fortitude saves. Congratulations, you're now playing as that guy you knew from high school who never bathed and nobody liked.
Blight Druid is an awesome archetype. Take the Darkness domain, get Blind-Fight for free and summon 1d3 Shadows (there's a ridiculous number of high CR creatures that are all but helpless against incorporeal undead). Blindnes and Shadow Conjuration as domain spells are also great. Touch of darkness gives Blur to the whole party. It's even better if you use a conductive weapon (or Amulet of Mighty Fist for wildshape) to trigger it. And at level 13 everyone attacking you with a natural attack must make a fortitude save or risk becoming blind.
The smell isn't that bad. The party is near you all day and immune to it for 24h on a single successful save. They can pretty much take 20 before breakfast is over. In addition, the smell alone is a great way to justify plaing a Charisma 5 dwarf even for hardcore roleplayers.
With respect to the Myrmidarch Magus, I see the problems people point out (inluding in the Myrmidarch Magus guide), but I wonder if we're looking at the Myrmidarch for the wrong use. Yes, the Ranged Spellstrike is broken in a bad way, but I wonder if Myrmidarch could be built to work as a decent two-handed weapon melee Magus who just happens to start moonlighting in archery later on. Need to do more study about this (when I get back to where I can read on a real monitor with no data plan limit instead of on a phone).
No. Archery is too feat intesive to "dabble" in it. Very Basic needs are PBS, precise, deadly and quick draw to switch, on top of rapid and many, that's 4 to 6 talents for a class that already has to split between fighter and caster feats and has no way of ignoring prereq like rangers can. And with 2H or bows you still leave Spell Combat behind, witch is the main reason to play a magus. I really tried to get a switch hitter out of it but it's just not functional.
From level 11 on the myrmidarch starts working. A lot of other options never work.
At level 11 you get the ability to cast something like scorching ray and deliver each ray with a ranged attack
From level 11 on the myrmidarch starts working. A lot of other options never work.
At level 11 you get the ability to cast something like scorching ray and deliver each ray with a ranged attack
That ability doesn't actually work - there is no way to hold the charge on a ranged touch attack spell and then perform a full attack action.
I think it qualifies for this thread.
I've played the ECC archetype and I can say categorically, that BOTF did not get used barely at all past 5th level.
As for using it for a +2 on a small number of out of combat skill checks, that didn't happen either..... take 10, take 20 or Aid another took care of pretty much everything. There were the odd occasion that the Rogue had to disable device but then...
a) Thats what he excels at anyway
b) Quite often it occured when he was away from the party scouting and so I couldnt buff him anyway!
Saying "Every little bit counts" is a joke.... not when its a standard action, terrible duration, weak buff that MIGHT get used once in a bluemoon!
It's like CLW spell .... yes every bit of healing helps, but it doesnt change the fact that a wand of CLW costs nothing and so every party member should have one anyway!!
The ECC is supposed to be more caster not "I have an ability that between the levels of 1-4 will provide very limited out of combat skill check assistance!!"
AC is good for any class, like I said for Wizards its not a big deal because of their spells and party role. And on average a cleric only has 1 hp more per level than a wizard anyway so it really does matter!
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I think the primary draw of ECC is domain mastery. Being able to prepare domain spells (which are often outside the cleric list) more than just once per day, even if only for one domain, goes a long way towards making the cleric a better pure caster, especially without powerful 3.5 options like Divine Magician or Spontaneous Domain Casting.
Blessing of the Faithful is just a minor thing that gets used occasionally at early levels (it's beaten by alternate channeling + channel feats anyhow).
You can see that the archetype is very badly made when he gain the ability to spend channel to increase the duration of his blessing at level 1, but that ability does actually jack s!*% beside consuming a channel until level 5 since you lose your third level increase to channel
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2) You get wings. COOL! So does your Mount, which is what your Divine Bond is required to be - isn't that redundant?You'd think so, unless you've ever done a flying dismount off of a flying mount.
Has anyone ever argued that a horse's legs are redundant?
I've argued that my legs are redundant, and as such I should remove them and fuse with the horse to become a sweet centaur.
The gm wasn't going for it though.
I've played the ECC archetype and I can say categorically, that BOTF did not get used barely at all past 5th level.
As for using it for a +2 on a small number of out of combat skill checks, that didn't happen either..... take 10, take 20 or Aid another took care of pretty much everything. There were the odd occasion that the Rogue had to disable device but then...
a) Thats what he excels at anyway
b) Quite often it occured when he was away from the party scouting and so I couldnt buff him anyway!Saying "Every little bit counts" is a joke.... not when its a standard action, terrible duration, weak buff that MIGHT get used once in a bluemoon!
It's like CLW spell .... yes every bit of healing helps, but it doesnt change the fact that a wand of CLW costs nothing and so every party member should have one anyway!!
The ECC is supposed to be more caster not "I have an ability that between the levels of 1-4 will provide very limited out of combat skill check assistance!!"
AC is good for any class, like I said for Wizards its not a big deal because of their spells and party role. And on average a cleric only has 1 hp more per level than a wizard anyway so it really does matter!
Maybe it didn't come up much in your game, but I just finished GMing a campaign where players frequently failed skill checks by just 1 after all their buffs. For example, with another 2 on a knowledge check in Book 6 they would've known how to thwart the BBEG's plan, at least for a year or two. The extra preparation time would've been vital to surviving the final dungeon. In Book 3, the players didn't have the skill monkey with them at the time and needed to bypass an Arcane Lock-ed door (DC 30, iirc). Even stacking Greater Heroism, Guidance, passing Aid Another, and taking 20 on the check they still needed another +1 to get through the door. Beating that skill check meant bypassing half the dungeon and its worst traps. Little bonuses go a long way when you start stacking them up. The fact that it's a standard action with bad duration changes nothing out of combat. I already discussed when it is useful in-combat, so I won't bother dragging that on. Yeah, I get it, it's bad in combat at later levels - I agreed with you on that.
Domain Mastery and the Arcane Bond are the big highlights of the archetype anyway. BotF is cheap change compared to switching domain spell lists every day, casting one domain from any spell slot, and being able to cast any spell from the cleric spell list spontaneously once a day. If you can't see the power and versatility for casting behind those abilities I don't think I can help you.
Toughness has saved my last party's Arcanist on at least 6 different occasions - we only started counting in Book 4. +1 health per level really does matter.
I think the primary draw of ECC is domain mastery. Being able to prepare domain spells (which are often outside the cleric list) more than just once per day, even if only for one domain, goes a long way towards making the cleric a better pure caster, especially without powerful 3.5 options like Divine Magician or Spontaneous Domain Casting.
Blessing of the Faithful is just a minor thing that gets used occasionally at early levels (it's beaten by alternate channeling + channel feats anyhow).
I agree... domain mastery is the one big thing.
But I still maintain that too much is given up for not much in return.... the removal of AC not only makes the ECC massively squishy, but it also removes another role from the traditional party, that of the cleric helping out in martial combat..... so now not only cant the cleric assist in any damage absorbance/distraction capacity (aka Tanking) but theres no way he can assist as a secondary fighter either!
Leaving now a caster without the spell list to really pull it off AND the BAB and HD of someone who should be able to fight but cant!
Hence the limbo.....
Why of why they didnt go the full way with D6 HD,1/2 BAB and some proper class abilities Ill never know!... Actually I do know.. clerics get the short stick!
I think the primary draw of ECC is domain mastery. Being able to prepare domain spells (which are often outside the cleric list) more than just once per day, even if only for one domain, goes a long way towards making the cleric a better pure caster, especially without powerful 3.5 options like Divine Magician or Spontaneous Domain Casting.
Blessing of the Faithful is just a minor thing that gets used occasionally at early levels (it's beaten by alternate channeling + channel feats anyhow).
I agree... domain mastery is the one big thing.
But I still maintain that too much is given up for not much in return.... the removal of AC not only makes the ECC massively squishy, but it also removes another role from the traditional party, that of the cleric helping out in martial combat..... so now not only cant the cleric assist in any damage absorbance/distraction capacity (aka Tanking) but theres no way he can assist as a secondary fighter either!
Leaving now a caster without the spell list to really pull it off AND the BAB and HD of someone who should be able to fight but cant!
Hence the limbo.....
Why of why they didnt go the full way with D6 HD,1/2 BAB and some proper class abilities Ill never know!... Actually I do know.. clerics get the short stick!
Funny, You say that but I never hear people complaining about Oracles that are not Battle oracles...
2) You get wings. COOL! So does your Mount, which is what your Divine Bond is required to be - isn't that redundant?You'd think so, unless you've ever done a flying dismount off of a flying mount.
Has anyone ever argued that a horse's legs are redundant?
I've argued that my legs are redundant, and as such I should remove them and fuse with the horse to become a sweet centaur.
The gm wasn't going for it though.
Go for it. I love Centaurs. . . still working on more Centaur content since they got left out of monster codex.
My nominations for the hall of shame--
Arcane Bomber, Scrollmaster, Siege Mage, Spell Slinger, and any other Wizard Archetype that gives up Arcane School.
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I agree... domain mastery is the one big thing.
But I still maintain that too much is given up for not much in return.... the removal of AC not only makes the ECC massively squishy, but it also removes another role from the traditional party, that of the cleric helping out in martial combat..... so now not only cant the cleric assist in any damage absorbance/distraction capacity (aka Tanking) but theres no way he can assist as a secondary fighter either!
Leaving now a caster without the spell list to really pull it off AND the BAB and HD of someone who should be able to fight but cant!
Then you and I will just have to disagree on this issue :). And I would venture to say that an archetype with so many people disagreeing with you can't be an objectively bad archetype; it's just merely an archetype that doesn't resonate with you.
I maintain that the Ecclesitheurge is a well-designed, thematic archetype. It makes considerable sacrifices for a considerable benefit in Domain Mastery, which leaves you with a caster cleric that is far more dependent on his domain spells than a normal cleric, but with domain spells that actually matter a lot instead of just a 1/day slot. Compare this to, say, a heaven oracle or a flame oracle, whose bread and butter spells are supplied by her mystery instead of the core cleric list. The other two are just side bonuses (though arcane bond is pretty nice).
Worst comes to worst, you also have sacred summons.
It certainly plays very differently from a normal cleric, but the trade-off is fair for what the archetype gains - you can't just trade a few channel dice for something as powerful as Domain Mastery. Compare this to an actually poor cleric archetype (e.g. the Cloistered Cleric).
Also, just to address the AC argument: as what is effectively a caster-oriented cloistered cleric, you can safely dump STR and invest those points into DEX instead. Add Protection from Evil (or mage armor if you can get it) and you're okay for the low levels - you CAN survive with 15~17 AC as a back-line caster early in the game.
You shouldn't be wading into the front lines as an Ecclesitheurge - that's not what the archetype is designed for, so you don't need a front-line warrior's AC. The archetype, instead, gives you enough tools to do other things; if you are really tempted to do some melee and still want the archetype, just take the Feather subdomain + Boon Companion and buff an AC to do it instead.
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Ustalavic Duelist Fighter gets a shout-out because at level 13 it gives you the ability to use your weapon for dirty trick, trip and disarm combat maneuvers... Something everyone can already do.
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Ustalavic Duelist Fighter gets a shout-out because at level 13 it gives you the ability to use your weapon for dirty trick, trip and disarm combat maneuvers... Something everyone can already do.
While that particular tradeoff is bad, the rest doesn't seem awful per se. (Although my guess is this was also a mistake in the wording and the weapon should function as though it has the Trip and Disarm properties.)
You trade out the Bonus Feat for a Dodge bonus to AC, but since you also get Armor Training this makes Medium Armor much better.
Also auto-max damage on Crits? That would be great for a crit fishing build, especially if you had some way of getting Lead Blades. Plus the ability damage at the higher levels could have great synergy with some of the Critical Feats fighters get.
I mean, it's a Fighter - so still bottom rung, but I could actually see choosing this over a vanilla fighter for several builds. (Particularly if I were doing an Inigo Montoya ripoff type.)
I think the primary draw of ECC is domain mastery. Being able to prepare domain spells (which are often outside the cleric list) more than just once per day, even if only for one domain, goes a long way towards making the cleric a better pure caster, especially without powerful 3.5 options like Divine Magician or Spontaneous Domain Casting.
Blessing of the Faithful is just a minor thing that gets used occasionally at early levels (it's beaten by alternate channeling + channel feats anyhow).
I agree... domain mastery is the one big thing.
But I still maintain that too much is given up for not much in return.... the removal of AC not only makes the ECC massively squishy, but it also removes another role from the traditional party, that of the cleric helping out in martial combat..... so now not only cant the cleric assist in any damage absorbance/distraction capacity (aka Tanking) but theres no way he can assist as a secondary fighter either!
Leaving now a caster without the spell list to really pull it off AND the BAB and HD of someone who should be able to fight but cant!
Hence the limbo.....
Why of why they didnt go the full way with D6 HD,1/2 BAB and some proper class abilities Ill never know!... Actually I do know.. clerics get the short stick!
Domain Mastery is two very big things - casting one list from any spell slot and potentially switching one domain spell list every day. Then you neglect to mention Bonded Holy Symbol, which is one spontaneous spell per day from the cleric list or one of your chosen domains. That is also a big deal. Losing AC? Not a big deal. You are just as squishy as a wizard, or a witch, or an arcanist, or any other full-caster with no armor. There are plenty of spells to cast in combat that don't require you to be within melee range, I listed them for you in a previous post.
And seriously? Losing the ability to be a secondary fighter is a big loss for an archetype built around casting spells? You said yourself it's supposed to work more like a wizard! Which is it?
Ive pointed out caster oracles multiple times but he prefers to Ignore it...
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Ive pointed out caster oracles multiple times but he prefers to Ignore it...
At this point I think it'd be best to take it to another thread instead of blowing up this one over a tangential discussion.
What I find humorous is that for the Eccliseatheurge people are hating on being a poor.caster due to not havig good spells for playing a caster type.. but if you hope over to Oracle threads, there are more than a few people who have declared tha Oracles actually make pretty decent casters and the spell list actually hase good spells for casting afyer like... level 2
Despite those spells getting knocked for being meh against the wrong types, Spear of Purity/Searing Light make excellent Oracle spells for shaving HP off evil outsiders and undead 10d6 touch attack w/possible blind. A 10th level oracle has 6 level 2 spells base and so can be a good support for the front liners.
Sword Saint is brutal when mixed with a couple levels of Rogue to get minor magic/vanish.
That said how about the Savage Skald Bard, which is so cool but turns out it's 10th lvl performance is useless, and the entire reason for the class got gutted by the much more interesting and better designed Skald.
No. Archery is too feat intesive to "dabble" in it. Very Basic needs are PBS, precise, deadly and quick draw to switch, on top of rapid and many, that's 4 to 6 talents for a class that already has to split between fighter and caster feats and has no way of ignoring prereq like rangers can. And with 2H or bows you still leave Spell Combat behind, witch is the main reason to play a magus. I really tried to get a switch hitter out of it but it's just not functional.With respect to the Myrmidarch Magus, I see the problems people point out (inluding in the Myrmidarch Magus guide), but I wonder if we're looking at the Myrmidarch for the wrong use. Yes, the Ranged Spellstrike is broken in a bad way, but I wonder if Myrmidarch could be built to work as a decent two-handed weapon melee Magus who just happens to start moonlighting in archery later on. Need to do more study about this (when I get back to where I can read on a real monitor with no data plan limit instead of on a phone).
What if you bagged all of those feats except Quick Draw and resolve to switch to a melee weapon immediately if a target gets into melee with some of the rest of your party or allies? That gets rid of the need for Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot; it doesn't totally get rid of the need for Deadly Aim (although remember that isn't as good for a 3/4 BAB character as for a full BAB character), Rapid Shot (also not as good for 3/4 BAB), and Manyshot (the last 2 aren't as good for Ranged Spellstrike as for normal archery), but the Ranged Spellstrike that you eventually will get (even hamstrung as it is) does lessen the need for these.
Granted, the totally unnecessary line in Ranged Spellstrike "Any effects not used in the round the spell is cast are lost" still makes this at least a partial candidate for the Archetype Hall of Shame.
Ive pointed out caster oracles multiple times but he prefers to Ignore it...
Not in the slightest... I just dont reply to people who throw strops!!! Dry your tears and settle down... :)))
Its a poor comparison, Oracles have all manner of class abilities and options that Clerics cant even come near. For example....Revelations >>> Domains. Oracles are a very different beast to the cleric...
Also I'm not aware of any "Caster Oracle" archetypes that give up all of their armour as part of the deal? I am of course prepared to be proved wrong!
Chirurgeon:
1st; you trade Poison Use, a decent ability for an alchemist, for 1/2 of a discovery that you then have to purchase anyway.
2nd; You trade poison resistance +4, handy with poison being as common as it is, for one of the weakest feat/abilities ever.
3rd; you trade Poison Immunity, which I like a lot, for a single spell that doesnt even, technically, work. Since pulling a potion is a move action and force feeding one is a full round action, its impossible to save allies in almost all cases. Even if both were combined into a full round action, the chances of a ally getting killed within 5ft of you isn't very good.
My take:
Blade Adept (Arcanist): The arcanist isn't a martial class to begin with, so give it the ability to use a sword WITHOUT a decent BAB? Someone converted the Battle Sorcerer, which basically traded 1 spell slot and spell known per level for a medium BAB.
Student of Stone (Monk): This monk archetype for Oreads trades all
speed enhancements for a SINGLE +1 bonus to various rolls when touching the ground. Problem: it doesn't scale... at all. Speed has a total of +60 ft., but this one doesn't, not even +1/level.
Spellblade (Magus): Ok, the recently-released Mindblade is better suited. The Spellblade just grants and OFF-hand weak dagger for ONE minute... what's the point? Sure, you can still use your abilities such as Spellstrike and Spell Combat while wielding the Spellblade, but... pretty sure that a regular enhanced dagger can do the trick.
Broodmaster (Summoner): The idea of having more than one Eidolon is fine, but... WHY doesn't it follow the same rules as other archetypes that grant multiple companions for instance? A 10th-level broodmaster could have 1 10th-level eidolon, 2 5th-level eidolons, 1 8th-level and 1 2nd-level eidolons, and so forth.
Two-Weapon Warrior (Fighter): This archetype needs to be errataed, because the wording is awkward.
- Twin Blades, Improved Balance and Perfect Balance should be merged into ONE ability that reduces the TWF penalties according to levels, like "reducing the penalties by 1 per 4 levels".
- Doublestrike should be the ability to make 2 attacks AS PART OF any standard action, meaning that charges and Vital Strikes would be available.
Elemental Ascetic (Kineticist): Look, I'm all for a monk-like Kineticist, but... why did they remove the Kinetic Blast? I feel like they could have worked something else to allow both melee and ranged attacks with the blast/fist.
Just to agree and further emphasize how lame this archetype is, no you can't spellstrike with the dagger, because that archetype trades away spellstrike.My take:
Spellblade (Magus): Ok, the recently-released Mindblade is better suited. The Spellblade just grants and OFF-hand weak dagger for ONE minute... what's the point? Sure, you can still use your abilities such as Spellstrike and Spell Combat while wielding the Spellblade, but... pretty sure that a regular enhanced dagger can do the trick.
So it's Spell Combat only...
Wow...
Has anyone made a decent Internal Alchemist? It's intriguing, but I could never figure out how to make it work as a non monk gestalt.
Has anyone made a decent Internal Alchemist? It's intriguing, but I could never figure out how to make it work as a non monk gestalt.
Easy. Just use the Vivisectionist archetype as well. You don't need Throw Anything because you have Sneak Attack instead of bombs, you don't HAVE to take the feats in place of a discovery (it's just an option), and you still get Instant Alchemy at 18th level, which is the improved version of both Swift Alchemy and Swift Poisoning (poison isn't all that good anyway). You can put Chirurgeon on top of it as well, if you want (with that, you don't get the +2 or +6 poison resistance, but you still get the +4 so Internal Alchemist's Disease Resistance is still useful, just not quite as much).
Also, you could VMC Monk instead of Gestalt, though I don't know if that would be any good.