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Dread Investigator. Well named because I would dread one trying to join my party.
First "feature": Delayed Inspiration. Instead of getting Inspiration at 1st level, you have to wait until 4th. You eventually get as many uses of Inspiration as any other Investigator, but for levels 1-3 you do without this key class ability. You also Delay Studied Combat and Studied Strike, receiving them at level 7 instead of 4, and your precision damage from Studied Strike is reduced by 1D6 and stays that way. This alters Inspiration, Studied Combat, and Studied Strike and what you get in return is... absolutely nothing. There is no level 1 trade-in and nothing offered to compensate the loss of a sneak attack dice. Someone thought the other archetype abilities were too amazing.
At level 2 you trade-out Poison Lore for spells that are added as extracts to your class list. 1st level: Hide From Undead, Sanctify Corpse. 2nd: Gentle Repose, Lesser Animate Dead. 3rd: Animate Dead, Speak With Dead. 4th: Rest Eternal. You can use these as Infusions on a corpse even if you don't have the Infusion discovery. Note well: This does not add these extracts free to your formulary, it only puts them on your class list, you still have to learn them. They also try to make it look like you can have the first two spells at first level, but you can't because you don't get the feature you have to trade-out for this one until 2nd. Not that any of these spells are impressive.
At level 2 you also trade-out Poison Resistance (and later Poison Immunity) for Negative Energy Resistance. +2 on saves vs. Death effects, negative energy, and energy drain. Good because DMs so like to throw sudden Death and negative levels at level 2 characters. So much more common than poison (if your hobby is kicking evil clerics). This ability does improve slowly and at level 11 you take half effect, even on a failed save, vs ability damage and ability drain and energy drain if and only if they are of undead origin. Oh, if you can also add three Alchemist discoveries to the list of those you can select as Investigator talents. None are free, you just add 3 to your options (alchemical zombie, mummification, preserve organs).
If you were getting real excited about those three nifty options to spend your Investigator talents, you also loose the talents you would gain at levels 7, 13, and 19 to add Undead Anatomy I, II, and III to your formulary as extracts.
Anyone playing one of these?
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How has nobody mentioned "Feral Child" yet? I would call it the worst option in all of Pathfinder.
It gives up !@#$ing wildshape in exchange for . . . trap sense and a situational bonus to CMD. JUST CMD. So to be clear, Devs, that you consider trap sense to be so freaking amazing that it's worth giving up:
-Ability increase
-FLIGHT
-Darkvision
-Scent
-Natural Armor
-POUNCE
Adding insult to injury is that she could still get the CMD bonus by flying in th first place.
It's sad, too, because a Tarzan type human-only Druid could've been REALLY cool - but instead you get a Druid that trades out one of its most iconic features for what is widely considered one of the most useless rogue features.
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Wild Rager barbarian for being an active threat to its own team.
...but....but...that was the best part about playing a frenzied berserker in 3.5!
Sure, the +10 Str from the combo of frenzy and rage was nice, but the ear to ear grin came when you failed your will save and the wizard was standing next to you! Who's a God now?! MWAHAHAHA!!!
How has nobody mentioned "Feral Child" yet? I would call it the worst option in all of Pathfinder.
It gives up !@#$ing wildshape in exchange for . . . trap sense and a situational bonus to CMD. JUST CMD. So to be clear, Devs, that you consider trap sense to be so freaking amazing that it's worth giving up:
-Ability increase
-FLIGHT
-Darkvision
-Scent
-Natural Armor
-POUNCEAdding insult to injury is that she could still get the CMD bonus by flying in th first place.
It's sad, too, because a Tarzan type human-only Druid could've been REALLY cool - but instead you get a Druid that trades out one of its most iconic features for what is widely considered one of the most useless rogue features.
Nature fang at least gives you enough bonuses (by giving you the most useful slayer features) to cover the ability increase....
Both have a small, strange balancing factor though in the fact that you can suddenly use the transmutation school (since you aren't constantly wildshaped, which takes up the room for those kind of buffs).
With animal soul, you can get your hands on those broken 'animal only' buffs. Animal growth for +8 strength and larger size, or atavism for +4 to EVERYTHING (which can mean a +2 boost to spell DCs, all saves, hp, AC, etc.) and more natural armor. Both are great choices.
But yes- feral child gives you little to nothing really. Nature fang gives you the tools to be a 'ranger, but with more magic' at least, and gives you enough bonuses and talents to throw around so you don't feel completely ripped off.
Then there's the Totem Rager which does literally nothing and came from a far better made book.
The GM in one of my games ruled that only totem barbarians may take totem rage powers and that you can only have 1 archetype per class.
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With animal soul, you can get your hands on those broken 'animal only' buffs. Animal growth for +8 strength and larger size, or atavism for +4 to EVERYTHING (which can mean a +2 boost to spell DCs, all saves, hp, AC, etc.) and more natural armor. Both are great choices.
Animal Soul got one of the more baffling errata entries actually, essentially being replaced with an entirely different feat.
With animal soul, you can get your hands on those broken 'animal only' buffs. Animal growth for +8 strength and larger size, or atavism for +4 to EVERYTHING (which can mean a +2 boost to spell DCs, all saves, hp, AC, etc.) and more natural armor. Both are great choices.Animal Soul got one of the more baffling errata entries actually, essentially being replaced with an entirely different feat.
So it is now purely preventative, rather than allowing you to do things?
Hmmm...if so, then nature fang is 'meh, not terrible' and feral child is complete trash.
Admittedly, I can somewhat understand why (I mean...I listed the rather large buffs that were never meant for PCs... animal growth gives twice the str boost compared to the similar leveled righteous might, and it lasts 10x as long).... still, a bit disappointing. It is a bit too much for a single feat with little real prereqs.... I could possibly see it as the end of a feat chain though.
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With animal soul, you can get your hands on those broken 'animal only' buffs. Animal growth for +8 strength and larger size, or atavism for +4 to EVERYTHING (which can mean a +2 boost to spell DCs, all saves, hp, AC, etc.) and more natural armor. Both are great choices.Animal Soul got one of the more baffling errata entries actually, essentially being replaced with an entirely different feat.
Like, they mistakenly wrote 5 row worth of text. At least they got the name right -.-
Funny you should mention, I am currently trying to salvage the archetype in another thread!
Ps Blessing of the Faithful is poor.... yes its at will but its a Standard Action for 1 round for +2.... in terms of action economy buffing its dire. To make it even moderately useful you have to use a channel, which due to the reduction of 1d6 only becomes viable around 10th level... and like I said its only +2 (which at 10th+ level is pretty crap).
Pps And as for the armour loss, what is problematic is that unlike a wizard there is no way to mitigate it via arcane armour training... you CANNOT use armour or shield EVER.
Blessing of the Faithful is straight-up better than Guidance at lower levels since it's a +2 that works for a whole round instead of one action. Even without spending a channel energy to make it last longer it's still a fantastic combat buff at early levels when you'd normally be attacking or casting Guidance often to avoid wasting spells. Sure, it's not as great at later levels, but by that time you're still a full caster with an incredibly versatile list.
The inability to effectively use armor isn't as big of a deal as people seem to make it out to be. Full casters have access to spells like Mirror Image and Displacement, which were still being used by the end of Book 6 (with Mind Blank up, of course) to great effect. Our arcanist had an AC of 11 and never died the whole campaign, while the shaman wore medium armor and had an AC in the upper 30s and still got hit by most attacks. Arcane Armor Training is up to 3 feats and you can never quicken a spell - that's a lot to lose for a few measly points of AC.
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Wild Rager barbarian for being an active threat to its own team....but....but...that was the best part about playing a frenzied berserker in 3.5!
Sure, the +10 Str from the combo of frenzy and rage was nice, but the ear to ear grin came when you failed your will save and the wizard was standing next to you! Who's a God now?! MWAHAHAHA!!!
Ahhhh yes, the Frenzied Berserker in 3.5. For when you wanted a simple poison needle trap to become a total party wipe.
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Ghost Hunter paladin archetype in OA. Its "Exorcise Possession" ability allows you to expend one use of lay on hands to end a creature's possession with a successful Will save...the victim's Will save.
So basically, if a level 1 commoner gets possessed by a powerful demon, they're screwed. Instead of the level 12 paladin behind able to burn Pazuzu out of Regan's mind with pure righteous fury, little Regan gets to make another desperate, worthless attempt to reassert control, and Pazuzu reminds you once again that your mother sucks **** in Hell.
I'm honestly surprised that no one has mentioned Totem Warrior yet. You know, the Barbarian archetype that quite literally does nothing.
Well there was that first guy who responded.
Then there's the Totem Rager which does literally nothing and came from a far better made book.
Granted he called it totem rager.
Course that's not even the one I'm mad about, I had a character I could have rebuilt as a Stygian Slayer, it would work perfectly. If only he wasn't gonna get kneecapped before the starting gun even went off. This is the kind of thing that needed to be fixed, not Slashing Grace, not animal soul, and yet this just does not function.
In all fairness to the Totem Warrior it was the best archetype until it was FAQrattaed to death.
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So basically, if a level 1 commoner gets possessed by a powerful demon, they're screwed. Instead of the level 12 paladin behind able to burn Pazuzu out of Regan's mind with pure righteous fury, little Regan gets to make another desperate, worthless attempt to reassert control, and Pazuzu reminds you once again that your mother sucks **** in Hell.
A nat 20 always succeeds on saves so theoretically if you dumped enough uses of LoH into the kid she'd eventually throw it off. Maybe that's why the movie was longer than 6 seconds :P
But yeah, I can see your point here. You'd think the ability would be a little bit better than that given how niche it is, especially as said niche can also be covered by the preemptive casting of a 1st level spell that practically everyone gets.
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Master of Many Styles Monk. Nothing like being able to ignore essentially all prerequisites for endgame level feats with a 1-level dip.
Ooooh, I didn't notice that wording (or lack thereof) in the last sentence of Bonus Feat. Yeah, that needs an errata stating that ignoring the prerequisites is only for the bonus feats (which is what I had previously assumed).
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I don't know if anyone's mentioned it, but have you seen the Overwhelming Soul archetype for the Kineticist?
You can't take burn. Boo hoo. You can choose not to take burn anyway. But worse than that, it invalidates a TON of abilities.
You can reduce the burn from wild talents by up to 2 at level 16 (3 with a full-round action), but that means that ALL utility talents that require 4 or more burn will never be available. Some of the composite blasts you get will MAYBE be available at high levels after you get Composite Specialization and Supercharge, but virtually all Metakinesis abilities will never be usable since they increase the burn by another few points.
In short, for all its vaunted "you take no burn!" hype, it shafts you hard while turning your key ability score from a god-stat that adds to HP and saves into a stat that is usually dumped by most non-face characters (Charisma).
EDIT: It also invalidates your capstone without replacing it with anything. GG.
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Ooooh, I didn't notice that wording (or lack thereof) in the last sentence of Bonus Feat. Yeah, that needs an errata stating that ignoring the prerequisites is only for the bonus feats (which is what I had previously assumed).
Actually, I wasn't thinking of that (I like cheese, but that's a bit too cheesy even for me), so much as even used as intended it's absurd. It's possible to have two style chain end feats at level 3. Those don't typically come into play until the teens.
It wouldn't be so bad if it at least required you take the entire feat chain and only let you ignore the other prerequisites - at least then, a 1-2 level dip would be good, but not amazing. But being able to selectively dip the two levels to get two end of chain feats is what makes it broken.
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Ooooh, I didn't notice that wording (or lack thereof) in the last sentence of Bonus Feat. Yeah, that needs an errata stating that ignoring the prerequisites is only for the bonus feats (which is what I had previously assumed).Actually, I wasn't thinking of that (I like cheese, but that's a bit too cheesy even for me), so much as even used as intended it's absurd. It's possible to have two style chain end feats at level 3. Those don't typically come into play until the teens.
It wouldn't be so bad if it at least required you take the entire feat chain and only let you ignore the other prerequisites - at least then, a 1-2 level dip would be good, but not amazing. But being able to selectively dip the two levels to get two end of chain feats is what makes it broken.
Sohei has the same problem, letting you take Mounted Skirmisher at level 1.
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Ahhhh yes, the Frenzied Berserker in 3.5. For when you wanted a simple poison needle trap to become a total party wipe.Wild Rager barbarian for being an active threat to its own team....but....but...that was the best part about playing a frenzied berserker in 3.5!
Sure, the +10 Str from the combo of frenzy and rage was nice, but the ear to ear grin came when you failed your will save and the wizard was standing next to you! Who's a God now?! MWAHAHAHA!!!
Or a single magic missile winging its way in.
But, to be honest, Frenzy was never the reason to take FB, improved and SUpreme Power Attack + Unkillable was. At the beginning of the day, you go off into the woods and burn up your Frenzy uses. Ding, no more wiping the party accidentally, since you couldn't frenzy any more.
==Aelryinth
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At the beginning of the day, you go off into the woods and burn up your Frenzy uses. Ding, no more wiping the party accidentally, since you couldn't frenzy any more.
==Aelryinth
That reminds me of the scene in Something About Mary in which the guy convinces Ben Stiller's character that he needs to take similar action to neutralize his own threat of spoiling a date with Mary.
Blessing of the Faithful is straight-up better than Guidance at lower levels since it's a +2 that works for a whole round instead of one action. Even without spending a channel energy to make it last longer it's still a fantastic combat buff at early levels when you'd normally be attacking or casting Guidance often to avoid wasting spells. Sure, it's not as great at later levels, but by that time you're still a full caster with an incredibly versatile list.
The inability to effectively use armor isn't as big of a deal as people seem to make it out to be. Full casters have access to spells like Mirror Image and Displacement, which were still being used by the end of Book 6 (with Mind Blank up, of course) to great effect. Our arcanist had an AC of 11 and never died the whole campaign, while the shaman wore medium armor and had an AC in the upper 30s and still got hit by most attacks. Arcane Armor Training is up to 3 feats and you can never quicken a spell - that's a lot to lose for a few measly points of AC.
Great its better than a cantrip!!!... The simple fact is that its a weak buff and a standard action to cast... once you get 3rd level spells, you wont use it. Even with 2nd lvl spells you'll start to cast it way less. I've played the archetype and thats exactly what happens!!
The Ecclesitheurge only gets Mirror Image through the Deception sub-domain.... in itself massively restricting your options.
And you need to re-read some of my earlier posts to further understand why the archetype is hopelessly stuck in limbo land...
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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My favourite is the Archeologist. AKA "I don't need sneak attack, so why play a (chained) rogue?"
It's a 'greedy bard' who has a buff that stacks with a 'real' bard. You get rogue talents, delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, trapfinding AND bardic knowlege AND all your bard spells. Oh, and add half your level to perception and disable device. Sadly, you don't get sneak attack. trust me, you won't miss it.
Sure, you need a feat to make it work (Lingering performance) but if you have a certain trait, it gets even better. (I'll take a +1 to my luck bonus for a half a feat, Alex.)
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How about the Stygian Slayer? It sounds cool and I'd love to use it were it not for the fact that Paizo seems to have accidentally'd proficiency with all weapons away from the archetype. And the errata still hasn't fixed that as far as I can tell (The linked website still has what I have to assume was a really noticeable error).
Then there's the Totem Rager which does literally nothing and came from a far better made book.
In fairness to the Stygian Slayer, that was obviously a typo. Any GM with half a brain should allow you to play that archetype with the Slayer's base weapon proficiencies. If the GM would really force you to have NO weapon proficiencies, then it's not worth playing in his/her game.
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My favourite is the Archeologist. AKA "I don't need sneak attack, so why play a (chained) rogue?"
It's a 'greedy bard' who has a buff that stacks with a 'real' bard. You get rogue talents, delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, trapfinding AND bardic knowlege AND all your bard spells. Oh, and add half your level to perception and disable device. Sadly, you don't get sneak attack. trust me, you won't miss it.
Sure, you need a feat to make it work (Lingering performance) but if you have a certain trait, it gets even better. (I'll take a +1 to my luck bonus for a half a feat, Alex.)
I thought this was the Hall of Shame. The Archeologist is pure win, and other Archetypes only wish they were that cool.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I thought this was the Hall of Shame. The Archeologist is pure win, and other Archetypes only wish they were that cool.My favourite is the Archeologist. AKA "I don't need sneak attack, so why play a (chained) rogue?"
It's a 'greedy bard' who has a buff that stacks with a 'real' bard. You get rogue talents, delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, trapfinding AND bardic knowlege AND all your bard spells. Oh, and add half your level to perception and disable device. Sadly, you don't get sneak attack. trust me, you won't miss it.
Sure, you need a feat to make it work (Lingering performance) but if you have a certain trait, it gets even better. (I'll take a +1 to my luck bonus for a half a feat, Alex.)
Nah it's the broken hall. Archeologist is scary good, maybe too good.
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Nah it's the broken hall. Archeologist is scary good, maybe too good.I thought this was the Hall of Shame. The Archeologist is pure win, and other Archetypes only wish they were that cool.My favourite is the Archeologist. AKA "I don't need sneak attack, so why play a (chained) rogue?"
It's a 'greedy bard' who has a buff that stacks with a 'real' bard. You get rogue talents, delayed uncanny dodge and evasion, trapfinding AND bardic knowlege AND all your bard spells. Oh, and add half your level to perception and disable device. Sadly, you don't get sneak attack. trust me, you won't miss it.
Sure, you need a feat to make it work (Lingering performance) but if you have a certain trait, it gets even better. (I'll take a +1 to my luck bonus for a half a feat, Alex.)
A good rogue or a crappy Bard does not make for op
Blessing of the Faithful is straight-up better than Guidance at lower levels since it's a +2 that works for a whole round instead of one action. Even without spending a channel energy to make it last longer it's still a fantastic combat buff at early levels when you'd normally be attacking or casting Guidance often to avoid wasting spells. Sure, it's not as great at later levels, but by that time you're still a full caster with an incredibly versatile list.
The inability to effectively use armor isn't as big of a deal as people seem to make it out to be. Full casters have access to spells like Mirror Image and Displacement, which were still being used by the end of Book 6 (with Mind Blank up, of course) to great effect. Our arcanist had an AC of 11 and never died the whole campaign, while the shaman wore medium armor and had an AC in the upper 30s and still got hit by most attacks. Arcane Armor Training is up to 3 feats and you can never quicken a spell - that's a lot to lose for a few measly points of AC.
Great its better than a cantrip!!!... The simple fact is that its a weak buff and a standard action to cast... once you get 3rd level spells, you wont use it. Even with 2nd lvl spells you'll start to cast it way less. I've played the archetype and thats exactly what happens!!
The Ecclesitheurge only gets Mirror Image through the Deception sub-domain.... in itself massively restricting your options.
And you need to re-read some of my earlier posts to further understand why the archetype is hopelessly stuck in limbo land...
I have reread your posts and still boil them down to the following:
* The Cleric spell list doesn't fill the same roles the Wizard list does so it doesn't work. Clerics are not Wizards, and you probably shouldn't be playing them like one.* The lack of Armor and Shield proficiencies makes it impossible to get up close and there's no way to mitigate that. The Ecclesitheurge is meant to be a casting-focused cleric, and shouldn't be getting up close. If you need to, there are ways to circumvent the AC issue or even the range issue (Reach Spell is a thing).
* Blessing of the Faithful only gives a +2 and has a poor duration, so it's useless later on. Of course you shouldn't be using this instead of casting a useful buff in combat in the late-game, you should be using it early on to conserve spells and to buff skill checks out of combat for the whole campaign. That's kinda the point - it replaces the standard "I attack it" option that clerics tend to use.
* Domain Mastery "doesn't work". You don't explain this, and since it is literally better than normal domains in a couple ways (casting from any spell slot, switching domain spells known every day) I mostly ignored it.
* "It gives up a lot for not a lot back". You lose some proficiencies, the ability to cast in armor / shields, and 1d6 channel energy. You gain an at-will buff, an arcane bond, a flexible domain, and the ability to cast one domain's spells from any slot.
You say it's bad, but I'm just not seeing it. Maybe we have different interpretations of what the archetype is meant to do - if you want to be a caster who is good in melee range, just play a cleric. But if you want to be a primary spellcaster and not get into the danger of melee combat, Ecclesitheurge will help you ride out those early levels and achieve greatness through versatility later on.
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It was pointed out in another thread that the Elemental Annihilator archetype for Kineticist can't use any of its class features with Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage because it only works for physical blasts. Pretty sure that means no composite blasts that use energy either, but I'm not sure.
It was pointed out in another thread that the Elemental Annihilator archetype for Kineticist can't use any of its class features with Fire, Electricity, or Cold damage because it only works for physical blasts. Pretty sure that means no composite blasts that use energy either, but I'm not sure.
This had me rattled at first as most composite blasts had some energy element (more than I initially thought) and it would even further limit the archetype. However, the archetype only limits its abilities to "physical blasts" so it should work with any composite but aetheric booted energy, blue flame and the force one, but it does mean having to pick up an energy blast that doesn't work with your shiny new class (archetype?) features...
Aetheric Boost would work, actually, as long as you added it to a physical blast. This means only Blue Flame and Force Blast are out as far as Composite Blasts go.
However,mine following is possible...
Gruk, Half-Orc Geokineticist(Elemental Annihilator): "I can throw boulders and magam around to fast for my foes to handle!"
Anyone: "But when you throw fire, something not heavy at all -or even having weight- if can't do any of that, right?"
Grub: "...."
I have reread your posts and still boil them down to the following:
* The Cleric spell list doesn't fill the same roles the Wizard list does so it doesn't work. Clerics are not Wizards, and you probably shouldn't be playing them like one.
* The lack of Armor and Shield proficiencies makes it impossible to get up close and there's no way to mitigate that. The Ecclesitheurge is meant to be a...
Blessing of the Faithful is useless in combat that much is obvious.And as a pre-combat buff its weak and has a horrendous duration.
If all your saying its good for is a +2 buff on out of combat skill checks.... then thats pretty poor as well.
1) In a lot of cases its possible to just take 10 or even take 20.. making it redundant
2) Clerics are NOT skill monkeys... I doubt a party has existed where this has been the case! Rogues and such like make the skill checks NOT clerics!
3) The archetype is all about becoming more caster... not using a standard action for weak out of combat skill buffs.... see again take 10/20.
The archetype is quite obviously supposed to be more wizardy (ermmm.... bonded item and crap armour?!?!) and I seem to recall the designer stating that intent in a post!!
The archetype via its design puts the cleric out of harms way... but this does cause limbo problems... I've played clerics who were buffers/debufers and several of their spells are close range or touch. With the ECC this is now an extremely risky option due to the poor AC. In essence he is forced out. This is compounded by not having access to the "get of jail free" type spells from the wizard list.
Poor AC is less of an issue for Wizards because their spells and their party role doesnt require them to be in the 'danger zone'. Not so the cleric.... for the ECC coming up against regular melee attacks and AOO is a recipe for disaster. I'm not talking about the ECC trying to hit something with a weapon!!!
Effectively by keeping it D8 HD and 3/4 BAB Paizo are wasting the archetype.... there is no way on earth the ECC is fulfilling any martial role!
But as I said, the cleric spell list doesnt suit the "stand at the back role" as well as the wizard, meaning that he cant perform this role effectively either.
In short..... the ECC cant get in the mix because he'll get chopped to pieces..... but he cant do the wizard thing because it doesnt suit his spells....AKA LIMBO!!
If the ECC is supposed to be a full caster... then why bother letting it keep the HD and BAB ?!?!? A complete waste....
Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Vexing Dodger definitely seems to have potential.
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Vexing Dodger definitely seems to have potential.Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Actually, I don't think that looks that bad. Dirty Trick is one of the better maneuvers and you actually get some bonuses to it.
Of course, that might be because trapfinding/sense almost never come up in my games, and Uncanny Dodge is situational enough that trading it out is never that big of a sting.
Vexing Dodger definitely seems to have potential.Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Actually, I don't think that looks that bad. Dirty Trick is one of the better maneuvers and you actually get some bonuses to it.
Of course, that might be because trapfinding/sense almost never come up in my games, and Uncanny Dodge is situational enough that trading it out is never that big of a sting.
I'm pretty sure that's what chaoseffect meant... That it has the potential to be a good archetype.
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I'm pretty sure that's what chaoseffect meant... That it has the potential to be a good archetype.Vexing Dodger definitely seems to have potential.Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Actually, I don't think that looks that bad. Dirty Trick is one of the better maneuvers and you actually get some bonuses to it.
Of course, that might be because trapfinding/sense almost never come up in my games, and Uncanny Dodge is situational enough that trading it out is never that big of a sting.
Ah got it. Sorry I misread that as has potential to be in the Hall of Shame.
Ah got it. Sorry I misread that as has potential to be in the Hall of Shame.I'm pretty sure that's what chaoseffect meant... That it has the potential to be a good archetype.Vexing Dodger definitely seems to have potential.Literally any Rogue archetype that isn't Scout, Thug or Knife Master... Maybe another one or two. I don't know, I don't keep up with Rogue archetypes.
(And Ninjas are technically a separate class, for some reason).
Actually, I don't think that looks that bad. Dirty Trick is one of the better maneuvers and you actually get some bonuses to it.
Of course, that might be because trapfinding/sense almost never come up in my games, and Uncanny Dodge is situational enough that trading it out is never that big of a sting.
Lemmy is correct in my intentions, but perhaps I should have said it differently.
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I don't think it was mentionned but Crossbowman Fighter's anyone?
I was trying to forget that existed.
Thanks
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I don't think it was mentionned but Crossbowman Fighter's anyone?
I thought it was a given that the whole fighter class belongs here.
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I don't think it was mentionned but Crossbowman Fighter's anyone?I thought it was a given that the whole fighter class belongs here.
In b4 "but the lore warden is great"
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In b4 "but the lore warden is great"I don't think it was mentionned but Crossbowman Fighter's anyone?I thought it was a given that the whole fighter class belongs here.
I personally find it amusing that Lore Warden is considered to be a horrible, overpowered, broken mess by Paizo, yet to everyone else it just makes the Fighter seem maybe worth using instead of literally any other full BAB class.
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tetori
which gave you feats that have not ever existed
shield champion
where you fight with a shield but cannot actually use shields
something something
errata
something something
Advanced Class Guide Adventure Path
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Ah got it. Sorry I misread that as has potential to be in the Hall of Shame.
I'm pretty sure that's what chaoseffect meant... That it has the potential to be a good archetype.
It's p. dang great for a rogue archetype if you mix in monkey shine and a level of mouser.
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It's p. dang great for a rogue archetype if you mix in monkey shine and a level of mouser.Ah got it. Sorry I misread that as has potential to be in the Hall of Shame.
I'm pretty sure that's what chaoseffect meant... That it has the potential to be a good archetype.
*begins slow clap*
Goddamn that's beautiful. I think the only issue is that Limb-Climber doesn't specify that you are actually in the enemy's space. I know I'd rule it so, but that text not being there could be problematic RAW, at least until you climb on and then immediate action Underfoot Assault to be in the space 100% RAW.
I particularly like the use of Monkey Shine here; the entire first part of the feat does nothing as you will never land a Stunning Fist attempt, but the second applies as long as you are in the enemy's square, seemingly even if it's from another ability. RAI, that may not be how it is supposed to work, but RAW says yes. It's technically correct; the best kind of correct.
So build wise 2 level dip Master of Many Styles Monk, Mouser 1, then Vexing Dodger the rest of the way? Oh man, if only Vexing Dodger was Ninja compatible, but I guess we can't have everything.
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I personally find it amusing that Lore Warden is considered to be a horrible, overpowered, broken mess by Paizo, yet to everyone else it just makes the Fighter seem maybe worth using instead of literally any other full BAB class.In b4 "but the lore warden is great"I don't think it was mentionned but Crossbowman Fighter's anyone?I thought it was a given that the whole fighter class belongs here.
I like several of the other archetypes as well, such as brawler, mutagenic warrior, and eldritch guardian.
They all have their own little niches that can work fairly well (lockdown, flight, doubling action economy for silly stuff).
A lot of abilities can be traded since they are 'nice, but not deal breaking'. As a class goes, its most iconic feature is still 'crapton of feats'.
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To be precise, its most iconic feature is a 'a ton of choices for underpowered, non-scaling abilities that any other class can also take and work better with in many cases. And that it must qualify for, and which don't apply out of combat.'
:0
==Aelryinth