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Hey all,
So I'm joining a new campaign (all Pathfinder books allowed) and the char creation rules are odd.
All characters will get MAXIMUM Hit Points for their first three Character levels.
Attributes:No dice will be rolled.All attributes start at 10.You have 15 additional points to spend to increase attributes.You may trade points at a 1:1 ratio but may not lower a stat below 7, nor increase a stat above 18.
This method for attributes creates fairly low adventurer stats, but above the typical commoner. I did this on purpose. Your characters will grow over time. You may purchase Attribute increases using XP. Note that this rule is not found in Pathfinder books. This is my custom variant. Costs are listed below:
New Attribute value Cost in XP
8-10 1,000
11-15 2,500
16-18 5,000
18-20 10,000
Now this is all well and good, but it does make for fairly low stats and makes MAD classes non-viable (IMHO)
So I was thinking Orc Scarred Witch?
I prefer full casters, but im kinda thrown here.
Any ideas would be helpful.
Scarred Witch Doctor and Lunar Oracle are the most SAD classes in existence.
Scarred witch doctor or Wizard.
Zen Archer Monk as a close third.
Also vote for caster Oracle. Every defensive stat based on Charisma (well not HP unless you are undead), casting with Charisma, and can even get Charisma to Init.
Also vote for caster Oracle. Every defensive stat based on Charisma (well not HP unless you are undead), casting with Charisma, and can even get Charisma to Init.
OOOhhhh thats a good point
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Also vote for caster Oracle. Every defensive stat based on Charisma (well not HP unless you are undead), casting with Charisma, and can even get Charisma to Init.
I've gotta say - that feat which gives Charisma to saves is among if not the most OP feat in Pathfinder. I believe PFS has banned it for just that reason.
What feat is that for the Oracle?
What feat is that for the Oracle?
The stupid dumb why did anyone think this was a good idea feat is Divine Protection. The charisma to initiative feat is Noble Scion.
Feats:
Divine Protection - CHA to Saves.
Noble Scion (War) - CHA to Initiative
Celestial Obedience (Arshea) - CHA to AC
Do note the "Stat bonuses are totally a typed bonus despite that not being the case for literally every undead anti-paladin ever written" FAQ makes some things less worth considering. For example Celestial Obedience (Arshea) is better then swapping CHA for DEX, since you can still benefit from a positive DEX with Celestial Obedience Arshea.
Celestial Obedience comes in far too late to build around, while the charisma-to-ac oracle revelations are available right at level 1.
Oh my god, Celestial Obedience around level 15 or 16 is soooo good. I plan on playing a Lunar Oracle and if we ever get that high (We're starting at 9) is something I will totally take XD
Especially with Prophetic Armor, which is like saying "You have double your CHA to your AC AND you get to be sexy"
Who doesn't like sexy?
Oh my god, Celestial Obedience around level 15 or 16 is soooo good. I plan on playing a Lunar Oracle and if we ever get that high (We're starting at 9) is something I will totally take XD
Especially with Prophetic Armor, which is like saying "You have double your CHA to your AC AND you get to be sexy"
Who doesn't like sexy?
You can't sadly because as I mentioned the "Stat bonus types are typed bonuses" FAQ. You can't add you CHA to AC twice.
@ Arachnofiend: True, but obviously at level 16 Celestial Obedience is the superior choice, since it allows you to add DEX to your AC as well.
Definitely dump stats. Since the XP costs are graduated and the point-buy isn't, you'll get the most bang for your buck.
Already seen my top 3:
Witch (particularly Orc Scarred Witch Doctor)
Oracle
WizardPersonally I'd lean towards Oracle because I haven't played one...though I prefer arcanes over divines.
Oracles make for pretty neat save-or-suck casters with Oracle's Burden. Deaf and Wrecker are really nasty things to have happen to you (and if you're dual-cursed you can apply both!).
Oh my god, Celestial Obedience around level 15 or 16 is soooo good. I plan on playing a Lunar Oracle and if we ever get that high (We're starting at 9) is something I will totally take XD
Especially with Prophetic Armor, which is like saying "You have double your CHA to your AC AND you get to be sexy"
Who doesn't like sexy?
You can't sadly because as I mentioned the "Stat bonus types are typed bonuses" FAQ. You can't add you CHA to AC twice.
@ Arachnofiend: True, but obviously at level 16 Celestial Obedience is the superior choice, since it allows you to add DEX to your AC as well.
Actually, they do stack. It's like the exception listed in the FAQ.
Prophetic Armor adds your Charisma Mod to AC instead of DEX.
Celestial Obedience grants an Armor bonus (equal to your Charisma Mod).
MAD classes non-viable with 1-for-1 point buy? Hell, people make it work (somewhat) with graduated point-buy at only 15 points, and the difference between 15 and 20 ain't much on graduated.
And burning XP into Stats? That's just gold. Stay lower level than the rest of the party and catch up due to lower-level characters getting more XP from encounters. Since growth is graduated you have to put your high-priority stats high from the beginning, but the low ones can be completely soaked and then fixed up later.
After that, it's a matter of what you *want* to play. Quite frankly you CAN play nearly anything. You like full caster, but beyond that who do you want to be? Are you good, evil, or neutral? Are you a bigger fan of ordered construction and cooperation or Darwinnian struggles? Do you want to be an exploding nova of high-volume destruction or a determinator who does slow-and-steady magic all day long? Do you prefer to buff your allies, or debuff your enemies, or kill everything that moves all by yourself? Do you want a giant toolbox of different useful tricks or a small handful of tools that are probably more powerful?
I like Scarred Witch Doctor, but I like it because along with great HP he has a fun character type. The "noble savage" primitive tribesman with his hoodoo rootwork, his spirit-talking, his mask that has its own personality, and his tendency to creep people out (intimidate am fun). I can get behind Lunar Oracle if there's a STORY behind it, but if it's just a power build, there's a gazillion of 'em, and NONE of 'em are going to be perfect.
Lower level characters get the same XP as higher ones now. CR's just give a set amount of XP.
off the top of my head:
-scarred witch doctor (maybe with some urban barbarian sprinkled in)
-investigators are almost entirely reliant on intelligence
-clerics and monk can get pretty SAD for wisdom depending on archetype
-oracles, paladins, and bards can get hilariously SAD for charisma.
for oracles, personally my vote for saddest is lore>nature=lunar, since lore has a defensive AND a skill-based conversion to help streamline things, despite the lack of CMD coverage on sidestep secret (it does allow him to double-dip cha to reflex though).
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So just to clarify this is a valid stat array for you right?
18 = 8
18 = 8
15 = 5
7 = -3
10 = 0
7 = -3
for a total of 15 points spent for you right, and this is a 33pt buy. So really, your 15 is better for stats then most other options. So I don't know why you'd be worried about your stats. Am I missing something?
Oh my god, Celestial Obedience around level 15 or 16 is soooo good. I plan on playing a Lunar Oracle and if we ever get that high (We're starting at 9) is something I will totally take XD
Especially with Prophetic Armor, which is like saying "You have double your CHA to your AC AND you get to be sexy"
Who doesn't like sexy?
You can't sadly because as I mentioned the "Stat bonus types are typed bonuses" FAQ. You can't add you CHA to AC twice.
@ Arachnofiend: True, but obviously at level 16 Celestial Obedience is the superior choice, since it allows you to add DEX to your AC as well.
Actually, they do stack. It's like the exception listed in the FAQ.
Prophetic Armor adds your Charisma Mod to AC instead of DEX.
Celestial Obedience grants an Armor bonus (equal to your Charisma Mod).
Both add Charisma to AC. Charisma (along with all other stats) is a "bonus type" now. You can't add the same type bonus twice. Otherwise people would stack enhancement bonuses. I wish this were true but it is not.
Both add Charisma to AC. Charisma (along with all other stats) is a "bonus type" now. You can't add the same type bonus twice. Otherwise people would stack enhancement bonuses. I wish this were true but it is not.Oh my god, Celestial Obedience around level 15 or 16 is soooo good. I plan on playing a Lunar Oracle and if we ever get that high (We're starting at 9) is something I will totally take XD
Especially with Prophetic Armor, which is like saying "You have double your CHA to your AC AND you get to be sexy"
Who doesn't like sexy?
You can't sadly because as I mentioned the "Stat bonus types are typed bonuses" FAQ. You can't add you CHA to AC twice.
@ Arachnofiend: True, but obviously at level 16 Celestial Obedience is the superior choice, since it allows you to add DEX to your AC as well.
Actually, they do stack. It's like the exception listed in the FAQ.
Prophetic Armor adds your Charisma Mod to AC instead of DEX.
Celestial Obedience grants an Armor bonus (equal to your Charisma Mod).they do stack.
because the obedience is a typed bonus (armor bonus)
obedience wouldnt stack with your armor though
I am aware. You seem to be missing that "Charisma" is a bonus now. Like "Armor Bonus". So Obedience is both a Charisma Bonus and an Armor Bonus. Prophetic armor is a Charisma Bonus. Since both the Obedience and Prophetic Armor add Charisma Bonuses to AC, they will not stack. Even though one is also an armor bonus.
Sensei Monk is one of the saddest, most dangerous classes out there.
I'm not sure of the obedienceor how it's worded, but if it says gain an armor bonus equal to your charisma then charisma isn't tied to it at all and it would be added with something that adds your charisma to AC. The only time a stat becomes the source for a bonus is if the bonus is untyped.
However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.
I'm not sure of the obedienceor how it's worded, but if it says gain an armor bonus equal to your charisma then charisma isn't tied to it at all and it would be added with something that adds your charisma to AC. The only time a stat becomes the source for a bonus is if the bonus is untyped.
However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.
Huh. It is possible I have been massively misunderstanding the FAQ. Let me go do some digging.
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rogue is pretty sad :(
but maybe unchained will make it happier
Okay, so they are a source, but an "add strength bonus" and "add bonus equal to strength" now equate to the same source. If it uses any other source like "add a (type of bonus) equal to (a stat)" then the stat isn't a source for that bonus.
So does it work or not?
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Here's the official FAQ on the matter, for ease of use.
Do ability modifiers from the same ability stack? For instance, can you add the same ability bonus on the same roll twice using two different effects that each add that same ability modifier?
No. An ability bonus, such as "Strength bonus", is considered to be the same source for the purpose of bonuses from the same source not stacking. However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier. For this purpose, however, the paladin's untyped "bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws" from divine grace is considered to be the same as "Charisma bonus (if any)", and the same would be true for any other untyped "bonus equal to her [ability score] bonus" constructions.
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You could make some really good stat lines with these rules... Don't know why you are looking for SAD.
Ex:
18, 16, 13, 10, 10, 8
18, 18, 12, 10, 10, 7
16, 16, 16, 10, 10, 7
etc.
the faq clearly states that:
However, you can still add, for instance “a deflection bonus equal to your Charisma modifier” and your Charisma modifier.arhsea's 2nd boon:
2: Flawless Form (Su) Gain an armor bonus equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum +1) whenever you wear revealing clothing and no armor.basically, if the bonus is typed, is stacking. if the bonus is untyped bonus equal to a stat it doesn't.
so obedience (type:armor) stacks with "replace cha for dex" (untyped)
as a simple example, if you had let's say:
use dex instead of str for damage
gain sacred bonus to damage equal to dex
gain a bonus to damage equal to half your dex
gain an enchentment bonus equal to dexyou would gain: replace dex for str, dex as sacred, dex as enchantment
but you wouldn't get both "dex instead of str" and "half of dex" because both are untyped
Nice! Thanks for this as it helped to resolve a lot of my confusion regarding that FAQ. Hooray for Base AC of 42!
Seriously, base charisma of 18 gives you 28 charisma by the time you have a +6 Headband and are level 16. 28 base AC before an amulet of natural armor +5, and a+5 heavy shield
AC 40 armor worn: 0
That is before deflection or luck bonuses XD