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I don't get the "Burn scales because the benefits scale". That doesn't match any other class feature in the game. The penalty to AC doesn't get bigger wheb Barbarians level up. Nor do Wizards have to spend two spell slots to cast low-level spells just because their Int and CL got higher.
What makes Burn even more frustratingly player-unfriendly is the fact that the price for each ability not only growes higher with character level (unlike literally every other class feature in the game), but also grows steeper and steeper every time yku use the abiility.
FtB is not "rewarding" anyone. It simply compensates for the lack of weapon enhancements. At best, it reduces the unnecessary punishment your character takes for simply using his class features.
And how exactly is the Kineticist a "not resource-management class"? It uses one of the most precious and scarcest resources in the game to fuel everything! If it's supposed to be an "at-will", then make it at-will!
Seriuiusly... Mark mentioned player psychogy and said that people overvalue negatives and that's why so many players dislike Burn... But even assuming that's the case, rather than valid and concrete criticism of the mechanics, why make a game mechanic that discourages players from using their characters' abilities?
Even mlp says thst Burn must be "avoided like the plague". It's not like the Kineticist os doing something so absurdly powerful that it must be "balanced" by suffering incurable damage. Really, what's the point of making a class featuee that must be "avoided like the plague"?
To make things worsr, even non-Burn related features are needlessly complicated and restrictive, like Spark of Life and the Extra Wild Talent feat.
It seems players are so excited with the idea of finally playing an at-will blaster/elementalist that they willing to bear with whatever bad mechanics come attached.
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Something I've been thinking.
I believe almost every ability should have a free benefit and a burn benefit. That way every talent can be used even if you aren't happy with a burn cost.
This includes composite blasts which should have damage comparable to a regular blast unless you take burn in which case it does the improved damage.
An at-will class should be able to use all their abilities at-will, and use burn to turn it up to 11.
For example:
Kinetic Healing: Convert lethal damage to non-lethal damage. Spend burn for full effect.
Kinetic Barrier: Spend burn to give the wall hardness equal to level + burn spent. Or spend a burn to make it a move action, 2 burn for swift, 3 burn for reaction.
Hi, I just wanted to give some small mechanical things on the Kineticist designed to help encourage more play options:
1. Allow the damage dealt to object from telekinetic blast be optional. This should help players in object sparse locations not run out of things to throw as well as help players create more varied character styles within this field alone (Waka from Final Fantasy X becomes an option if the object is "safe" from the blast's harm.)
2. Allow Kinetic Fist to apply to all weapons, not just unarmed strike. The ability is still mechanicaly and flavorfuly distinct from Kinetic Weapon/Whip but expanding the number of legal weapons allows for expanded character archetypes (Gambit or Boom-Boom from X-men become easily possible, as well as several others.) You can even keep the name, since most every weapon is held in hand, re-flavoring that you wrap your hands and weapon in kinetic force is clean.
3. More Substances that benefit Melee, From reading the list of avilable substances only Pureflame, Pushing/Pressurized Blast, Magnetic, Chilling, and Rare Metal are able to interact in any meaningful way with Kinetic Weapon/Whip/Fist. While these are all cool and a great start, players wanting to focus primarily on melee kinetic combat would greatly appreciate more options that are either range agnostic (Combat Maneuvers!) or specifically benefit melee.
4. More balance between options for each element. From a cursorty perspective, it just looks like there are more options for Water and then Wind while Aether is super sparse. Either reflavoring some abilities to be universal (Pushing and Pressurized Blast being easy) or making more copies of the same ability for each element (which eats up word space, and I'm against that because it means less unique options get made) can hep fix this.
Oh, and I love the kineticist, greatest class I've had the pleasure of reading since I perused the Monk and Paladin.
Hey guys. Quick straw poll: Would you rather have my post mortem post today/tomorrow, but before the meeting where I can be more sure that the changes I discuss are incorporated, or next week when I have a much stronger sense? If we do it sooner rather than later, before I can moreso ensure that the changes will be in, I need you guys to pinky swear that you won't assume that the ideas in my post are going to appear in the final version.
Next week sounds like the way to go to me.
Later. I'd rather have a clear idea of what will be rather than have assumptions flying around from all sides.
Whichever option that allows the changes for PFS so current players can use the expanded options/fixes outside of home games.
Hey guys. Quick straw poll: Would you rather have my post mortem post today/tomorrow, but before the meeting where I can be more sure that the changes I discuss are incorporated, or next week when I have a much stronger sense? If we do it sooner rather than later, before I can moreso ensure that the changes will be in, I need you guys to pinky swear that you won't assume that the ideas in my post are going to appear in the final version.
As a fan of your work so far: don't get yourself into trouble. Wait until after the meeting.
Is there an option for both? If I must choose, then I obviously pick the more complete version. If the forums are locked, how will we see it, though?
My first session is the 4th. Get us the updates by then and I will be happy ;)
Sounds like next week then. I'll post it in this thread, which will probably be locked by then, so if that's the case, it'll become the last post.
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Thought I'd drop in an archetype idea before the thread gets closed: an archetype that starts with at-will kinetic blade and can pick up kinetic blast as a wild talent that costs 1 burn to use. It would be great for dedicated Geokineticists who want to go strength based.
Just don't forget we need at least 2 more skill points per level. :P
Just don't forget we need at least 2 more skill points per level. :P
Oh, when it comes to reinforcing my point that the class needed more skill points, you have all done very well (and you too, survey-taking silent majority!)
*crosses fingers that next week's updated version will be PFS legal*
...It probably won't be, but I can dream, can't I?
You know, the more I think about it, the more I actually would prefer a chart for the amount of nonlethal damage you take from burn as opposed to it scaling with level. Am I in the minority in this?
that way, the kineticist will feel like it is getting more resources as it levels up. Also, if it is a constant amount of damage over your level, it may be easier to do the book keeping on it.
I took the liberty of putting down some possible nonlethal hit point progressions:
I feel like nobody read my earlier post on this. xD
I think this (and stochastic burn mitigation) solves a TON of complaints that people have about this class. I have mostly been on about accuracy, but I think these solutions for the burn mechanic can make a lot of people happy. This makes the first few points of burn a happy trade and later ones serious costs that you need to weigh.
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I like Burn as is. If it gets changed, I would change it to half level. I definitely don't want a chart. I did see your previous post, but didn't care for the idea because I like Burn. I don't consider it a problem to be fixed. And honestly, only a few people do.
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And honestly, only a few people do.
I honestly don't think that's the case...
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Good stuff.
I like where you're going with this. It reflects an almost addictive-like quality to burn, where the penalties are less linear, more quadratic in nature (I'm speaking figuratively here, since an advanced math-guy I ain't).
My largest issue with burn is that the kineticist benefits most by hurting himself after waking, which to me, comes close to ruining the intended flavor of that mechanic. It's got a weird masochistic vibe as a result and makes the kineticist feel more like a psychic with the discipline of pain than Jean Grey or Katara.
If FtB was an always-on bonus that increased when Burn is used and if Kineticists had a small, but scaling "free Burn" pool (Half Kineticist level, maybe... Or Con modifier... Or even Con modifier up to half Kineticist level) that could be used before having to sffer incurable damage, I'd be mostly okay with Burn.
I'd still find the mechanic unnecessary and too costly, but it wouldn't be such an issue.
...if Kineticists had a small, but scaling "free Burn" pool...
Yes, please.
I like Burn as is. If it gets changed, I would change it to half level. I definitely don't want a chart. I did see your previous post, but didn't care for the idea because I like Burn. I don't consider it a problem to be fixed. And honestly, only a few people do.
Well, I have found most of the arguments against burn and alternate formulations of burn to be pretty lackluster. However, I am a little bothered that a level 20 kineticist has roughly the same amount of resources as a level 15 kineticist. If anything, the level 20 kineticist has fewer resources since you are 5 more levels removed from your first level where you had maximized hit points (and thus a single point of burn is sort of a larger percentage of your total health).
These other guys think burn as it stands is bad. I don't think so. I just think it could be better this way; you feel more rewarded for having a high a higher level (and to a certain extent higher constitution) because it raises your soft cap on the amount of hit point damage you can take.
Moreover, a stochastic mitigation mechanic furthers the goal of this being an "at will" class and open the game up to new sorts of calculated risks. You might even have cases where people are going to risk knocking themselves out to finish a fight they need to win.
(How about this slightly modified mitigation mechanic:
whenever you would take burn and have at least 1 burn already, you may roll a d100. If this result is below your constitution score+1/2 your kineticist level+5*burn)
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Good stuff.I like where you're going with this. It reflects an almost addictive-like quality to burn, where the penalties are less linear, more quadratic in nature (I'm speaking figuratively here, since an advanced math-guy I ain't).
My largest issue with burn is that the kineticist benefits most by hurting himself after waking, which to me, comes close to ruining the intended flavor of that mechanic. It's got a weird masochistic vibe as a result and makes the kineticist feel more like a psychic with the discipline of pain than Jean Grey or Katara.
yeah thats what i get when i try to build a kineticist, so for now lol my kineticist is a worshiper of zon-kuthon(?) and just grab endurance at 5th lv and flaggelent at lv7 at least until it no doubts become un usable by kineticist lol
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Mechanically speaking, what exactly does the Kineticist do that warrants such a harsh drawback to balance it out?
From what I've seen in this thread, the class' best trick is spending it's whole life as an elemental (and never dismissing the effect in order to avoid falling uncoscious if the ability is needed again). I don't see any blast-related power that is so good that it would be broken if it didn't cost 2 or 3 points of Burn.
Even Quicken SLA is nothing amazing for the level is comes around...
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Alright guys, time's almost up. It was lots of fun working together with all of you, and thanks for all of your feedback to help me back up some of my plans and create some entirely new ones, plus add more cool features and abilities. There's no doubt that this class is going to be much cooler for all of your effort throughout these weeks, and I can't wait to get this book out to all of you so you can see the fruits of our labors. Thanks for being inspired by the kineticist and sharing your views! This class wound up having about as many posts as all the others combined, so we kineticist playtesters must be doing something right!
Expect the post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish, with all sorts of teasers of goodies to come.
Cheers!
Mark
Well, your hit points are also going to be increasing by leaps and bounds (with con increases) as well while you are at it so I think this is a decidedly incomplete story.
Except, the amount of damage taken to max FtB increases to the point that it's nearly unmanageable.
A Kineticist with 36 Con (generally the highest Con you can get without shenanigans), Toughness and FCB to HP has, on average, 393.5 HP (lets make it 394). Feel the Burn at level 20 requires 120 temporary damage, so 120/394 = 30.45%
So nearly 1/3 of your HP is being sacrificed to up your defenses and gain this bonus. But, what are you getting for that burn? You need 6 points of burn, so lets find out.
Aether: Aether is kind of screwed as it doesn't have any longterm buffs other than Force Ward, so all of his burn goes into Force Ward. He gets a regenerating shield with 80 hp; if we use Mark's proposed change, it has a regen rate of 4 hp per minute as well.
Air: Air can use Enshrouding Winds or Kinetic Form for Elemental Body IV for 2 burn. So 4 burn for Enshrouding Winds, and 2 for Kinetic Form, giving you a 55% miss chance against ranged attacks, +4 Strength, +6 Dex, +4 natural armor, and a fly speed of 120 ft.
Earth: Earth uses Flesh of Stone and Kinetic Form, giving the Earth user up to DR 20 if he wishes. 2 Burn goes to Kinetic Form, 4 to Flesh of Stone, giving you DR 14, +8 Strength, -2 Dex, +4 Con, and +6 natural armor.
Fire: Fire gets Searing Flesh what's hurts people for hitting him (theoretically as most things are immune to fire at this point), Flame Shield and Kinetic Form. 2 points to Kinetic Form, 1 to Flame Shield, 3 to Searing Flesh. This nets a 'defense' of 8d6+10 points of fire damage, +6 Dexterity, +4 Con, and +4 natural armor.
Water: Water gets Shroud of Water, Shimmering Mirage and Kinetic Form. You gain either a +6 shield bonus or +8 armor bonus (with up to a 50% increase in either by accepting burn). So let's just assume the Water guy has Bracers of Armor and go with shield. 2 points to Kinetic Form, 1 to Shimmering Mirage, 3 to Shroud of Water. This nets you a +9 shield bonus, 20% miss chance on all attacks against you, +4 Strength, -2 Dex, +8 Con, +6 natural armor and 120 ft. swim speed.
Now, as you can see, some of these are more worth it than others. In descending order, I would rate them as Water > Earth > Air > Aether > Fire. Water, is just straight up fantastic, between a +9 - +11 AC bonus, and 20% miss chance? Awesome, but, on top of that, the Kinetic Form you great is just crazy as it comes with a +8 increase to Con, which gives you an extra 80 bonus HP, that's 2/3 of the HP lost from accepting the 6 burn back right there!
The problem I see here though, is that Kinetic Form is an ability that it is practically mandatory. It's not even a 'this is better than other things' it's a 'you're absolutely stupid for not taking it'; which is unfortunate, because there is not a single character that I want to play that runs around as an Elemental all day, every day.
In after the (supposed) lock. =p
No, Mark, thank YOU for the efforts and the listening ear. :) I've not been this excited about a canon class, ever. Fortunately, my next game isn't till mid December, so waiting for your post will be fine. :)
BTW, I +1 the idea of all powers having a 'burn free' option that is much weaker than the burn option. :)
Alright guys, time's almost up. It was lots of fun working together with all of you, and thanks for all of your feedback to help me back up some of my plans and create some entirely new ones, plus add more cool features and abilities. There's no doubt that this class is going to be much cooler for all of your effort throughout these weeks, and I can't wait to get this book out to all of you so you can see the fruits of our labors. Thanks for being inspired by the kineticist and sharing your views! This class wound up having about as many posts as all the others combined, so we kineticist playtesters must be doing something right!
Expect the post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish, with all sorts of teasers of goodies to come.
Cheers!
Mark
Okie dokie Mark, I look forward to next weeks post. I'm curious to see what options you'll come up with for non-burn users (or at least an option to not have to wake up and take your free damage right after you wake up). Good luck with the follow-up from the playtest as it seems that a lot of people, including myself, are excited with this class. If it turns out as awesome as I hope it does, I'll be happy with the book no matter what else is in it. ;)
Could we possibly get a list of archetype ideas?
Oh man, just went through the entire thread and one thing I wanted to know I could not find, and hopefully I am not posting too late.
How would the burn mechanic work with the Wounds/Vigor alternate game system? My group sometimes uses it and it would be great if I knew ahead of time how it could work.
Mark Seifter - Any chance we'll get some web fiction illustrating your concept of the kineticist in the Pathfinder world ? Or perhaps a novel at some point ?
Oh man, just went through the entire thread and one thing I wanted to know I could not find, and hopefully I am not posting too late.
How would the burn mechanic work with the Wounds/Vigor alternate game system? My group sometimes uses it and it would be great if I knew ahead of time how it could work.
Wounds and Vigor addresses non-lethal damage in the game.
When a creature takes nonlethal damage, it takes that damage in vigor points only, even if the attack deals more damage than the creature has vigor points. If the creature has no vigor points (and no temporary vigor points), each time that creature takes damage from an attack that deals nonlethal damage, it takes either 1 wound point of damage, or a number of wound points in damage equal to the attack’s critical hit modifier if the attack is a critical hit.
So, at 20th level, you have 94 hp on average (I'm unsure if toughness and FCB add to this). Now, if you were to max out your FtB bonus, you would take 120 points of non-lethal damage, which would come out as 94 points of non-lethal damage vigor damage and 2 points of wound damage, but this leaves you incredibly vulnerable.
I would suggest, reducing the burn damage to 1/3 class level (minimum 1). Instead of 120, you take 40. A significant penalty, to be sure, but not as crippling as it was before.
Alternatively, you might have each point of burn deal the effects spell-level in non-lethal damage.
Well we will just have to wait until next week to see what changes they will make to the kineticist or at least the ones they will tell us anyway.
hmm is the thread still open? lol
Nope, it's closed, duh. You can't even post here :P
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As closed as a typical pathfinder locked wooden door!
I can't believe they forgot to close the playtest threads.