General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

3,351 to 3,400 of 4,774 << first < prev | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | next > last >>

A higher cap would not be the world's greatest solution, honestly. Though I think it could be a strong part of a more holistic solution.

What Feel the Burn kind of does is it lets you use your constitution either for hit points or for attack and damage. The only reason I think there needs to be a cap to begin with is to stop you from stacking your dex and con on every attack bonus at lower levels. The mechanic is only really super useful if you build for constitution to begin with (but this is kind of penalized by the fact that you can only use dexterity at level 1.

Frankly, I do not see the harm at all in having FtB being capped at 1/2 your level but even that is not so great. What is you have a low point buy? Well then, you are s+&* out of luck because you don't have high enough stats to really take advantage of FtB. It is not a viable accuracy resource for you. This class needs another scaling accuracy bonus.

At its worse, the bonus from feel the burn is going to be as powerful as the Paladin's smite evil (but the drawback is in being more vultnerable rather than restrictions in use and enemy type). If that is not broken, then I don't even see why FtB necessarily even needs a cap. To be safe, I would recommend a 1/2 level cap.

But what about high point buys? Well guess what: like the paladin, the investigator, certain fighter builds, and the monk, the kineticist is going to benefit more from a high point buy than classes in general. As point buys go to infinity, 1/2 character level still means that the kineticist is not going to overtake the investigator in terms of accuracy (especially when you consider that the investigator has masterwork or magic weapons).

TL/DR:
There is no reason that FtB SHOULDN'T be capped at 1/2 level

Even if you do cap it at 1/2 level, that does not fix this classes accuracy problem, especially when you consider how poor low point buy kineticists are going to perform. Between no magic weapons and 2/3 BaB, this class needs a scaling accuracy buff to hit things with non-touch ranged attacks.


Generally from what I understand. the FTB bonus roughly keeps your "bab+FTB" at roughly equalish to Full BAB classes Not always but within the ballpark in general. Which is why with a magic weapon they'll hit plenty fine I think.

It'd be supremly suprising if there was no way to find yourself a magical weapon for this sorta thing. It is certainly possible but it would be pretty weird for how the game has been set up. The only other thing that hasn't been given magic weapon is bombs. except bombs are actively touch attack based and fast bomb-able. So they never needed it. there are even ways to get magic weapon bonuses on certain spells (spellslinger comes to mind). so I'm willing to be there will be some sorta focus item for this. May have some restrictions on the special abilities it can have on it though.


You know, the more I actually play a Kineticist the less I think accuracy is a problem... With both my 1-4 PFS Kineticist and my Lv 14 Tomb of the Iron Medusa Kineticist I've found it trivial to land a hit on an enemy, rarely needing more than a 5 to do so. I think people are underestimating the power of only needing the first iterative to hit.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Zwordsman wrote:
The only other thing that hasn't been given magic weapon is bombs. Except bombs are actively touch attack based and fast bomb-able. So they never needed it.

Bombs are limited in how many an alchemist gets per day, so the ruling of fast bombs can't be applied to unlimited kinetic blasts directly, but perhaps the philosophy can. We've discussed iteratives before, I realize, but there may yet be a tenable solution somewhere in there.


A 2:1/4 ratio on FtB would provide enough bonus to account for magic and class abilities, for the most part, allowing the Kineticist to have a proper accuracy on non-touch attacks and doesn't introduce another magical item into the game for the sole purpose of giving the Kineticist more accuracy. Making the class less item dependent is a good thing in my opinion.

It also tends to match up nicely with bonuses from other classes, the big two being the Bard and the Inquisitor.

Bard's Inspire Courage caps out at a +4 bonus for every one on all attack and damage rolls, while Inquisitor caps out at +5 on all of his attack rolls and +6 on damage rolls, with the caveat that the attack bonus is doubled on critical confirmation rolls after 10th level.

With a 2:1/4 and 1:1/4 ratio, the Kineticist would get +4 bonus on all attack and damage rolls, but with his blasts, he would get up to a +8 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

The big thing to remember, is that in the above 2:1/4 ratio, this assumes the Kineticist won't get a magical item to increase his accuracy/damage, similar to that of the Amulet of Mighty Fist. So while the Kineticist could get up to +8 to atk/dmg on his blasts, he won't be getting the +5 magical enhancement that other classes get. If he uses a weapon, his bonus is only as good as that of the Bard's but is selfish, similar to the Inquisitors.

A Bard with Inspire Courage and a magical weapon gets up to +9 on attack and damage, while the Inquisitor gets +10 to attack and +11 to damage, meaning the Kineticist would have less of a bonus on his Blast, but a higher self-generated bonus.


Zwordsman wrote:

Generally from what I understand. the FTB bonus roughly keeps your "bab+FTB" at roughly equalish to Full BAB classes Not always but within the ballpark in general. Which is why with a magic weapon they'll hit plenty fine I think.

That is crap, though. Real martial classes are 1.25 BAB.

The fighter has three weapon trainings and greater weapon focus. The barbarian has +3 from strength and then can benefit from raging weapons (this is not even looking at reckless abandon). Paladins have smite evil (which can easily get up to a +5 in accuracy). Cavaliers have their morale bonus to charges and also some challenges that add to accuracy. The gunslinger targets touch. The slayer can study a target. Etc. etc. etc.

With the exception of those martial classes that trade accuracy for heaps of extra damage and utility (ostensibly the monk and brawler), there are things that make you a viable attacker.

As it stands, this class is only really accurate when it is targeting touch and in most of those cases it is doing pretty unimpressive damage.

1/2 level is catching up to real martials. That is why the investigator gets to add 1/2 his level to attack.


Full BAB rather than full bab classes then. I was more implying the full bab rather than the classes' abilities. it just felt weird to say "Full bab bab."

I'm pretty confident that I'll be fine once the damage increases like they were talking about. I do still want the magic weapon for the DR breaking and specific special abilities I think would fit really neatly with this

I'm also hoping it doesn't end up with iteratives, since I want the snipy one shot thing.

Pretty sure investigators get 1/2 lv cause it's Advanced Classes, which is purpsofully made at a higher power level than current stuff (and also why some gms ban them for some story arcs).
I'd rather the occult level not be around ACG level of power and closer to the rest of the stuff. Just purely on a "let it get used" reasons. It's gonna be hard enough for some home game gm's to allow psychics even if it isn't actually a different set up than normal magic. It is a different flavor some hate. If you make them noticably better than some things and around ACG level some people will disallow it without even trying it.

Unless this is part of a new wave/power level--Like with Unleashed's implications, in which case that'd be fine.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Tels wrote:
With a 2:1/4 and 1:1/4 ratio, the Kineticist would get +4 bonus on all attack and damage rolls, but with his blasts, he would get up to a +8 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Hmm, interesting. Functionally, a 2:1/4 is an even better compromise than 1:1/2 as it necessitates less burn, but provides the same benefit, albeit spaced out a greater intervals. If I'm reading this correctly, you're in also in favor of granting half the 2:1/4 bonus (i.e., 1:1/4) to a kineticist's non-blast attacks? I could dig that. I presume it would apply to kinetic whip, fist, and blade? The combination is powerful, but better that than the 2:1/4 bonus to those attacks.

Obviously, addressing FtB is but one of many issues facing this class, but it's certainly a problem with addressing. Utility concerns have already and continue to be addressed in the Cool Things You Want thread and solving the skill problem is an easy fix.

I'm on the fence about the philosophy behind burn (I would LOVE to have some small pool of points to burn before I start taking nonlethal from overtaxing myself), but I sense it's likely to stay. So let's do what we can to help Mark perfect it!

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Zwordsman wrote:
Pretty sure investigators get 1/2 lv cause it's Advanced Classes, which is purpsofully made at a higher power level than current stuff...

Did the designers ever explicitly state that the ACG classes were supposed to be at a higher power level? I'm not trying to scuttle your argument, but I hadn't read that anywhere and it seems inconsistent with what I've experienced of Paizo's design philosophy.

I too hope that these classes don't end up being crazy powerful or plainly superior to the class options we already have. I myself am hoping to run a Gothic Victorian game with this expansion, after all, not a superhero game.

Moreover, when compared to the other Occult Adventures classes, I would hesitate to say that the kineticist is even in the running for most powerful class. My money's on the psychic because, you know, 9th-level spellcasting 'n all.

Really, I think we're all just pulling for the kineticist to be a good class. Not even the best class by any means, but just a good, solid, flavorful class.


Arachnofiend wrote:
You know, the more I actually play a Kineticist the less I think accuracy is a problem... With both my 1-4 PFS Kineticist and my Lv 14 Tomb of the Iron Medusa Kineticist I've found it trivial to land a hit on an enemy, rarely needing more than a 5 to do so. I think people are underestimating the power of only needing the first iterative to hit.

I think most people who have actually played as a Kineticist realize this. Full BAB characters have too much attack bonus for their first strike. That's why stuff like Power Attack and Rapid Shot exist--to trade the extra attack bonus for more attacks/damage. It's also why high level Full BAB characters basically never miss with their first attack--it's the second/third/fourth ones that are at risk. Gunslingers are so unfair because they use touch attacks and can freely trade as much accuracy as possible for more damage/attacks--they're going to hit on every shot pretty much no matter what.

Kineticists only have to hit with that first attack. The fact that they might miss at all is honestly a good thing. It lets you fit more damage in, too, for the same DPR.

Tels wrote:
With a 2:1/4 and 1:1/4 ratio, the Kineticist would get +4 bonus on all attack and damage rolls, but with his blasts, he would get up to a +8 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Do you know that, right now, FtB only applies to blasts as is? Are you suggesting they should get half to apply to all attacks?


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I don't think they ever stated it or anything no. but considering some classes half invalidate some past classes and in general are much stronger it seems like it's meant to be more powerful.
I'm not really making an arguement persay. It's just that it's strikingly different/stronger than the past stuff so it's noticable difference. Noticable enough some of the older GM's i know don't want them in the game cause of how they half invalidate some past classes. And that was one thing they hated in D&D 3.0/3.5

I don't think occult stuff are stronger any any past stuff, I think they're pretty similar power level- which means I might actually get to play them more often. If they're similar power level without being overly strong then it can give some cool character variety. But this is based on my gaming experiences and all.
and Kinetcist isn't remotely the strongest classic in occult adventures. I was more commenting on the difference between FTB bonuses to hit/damage compared to Investigator's 1/2 class thing( which is also precision though so it does have a weakness I suppose)

I'm voting for the good solid class level in general for all of these. That was just a point tha cropped up in my brain that it isn't really good idea to compare too much to ACG stuff unless that is intended to the be new norm from now on in pathfinder (like if unleashed changes a ton of past stuff).


I have read the ACG, and can tell you that the characters are not really higher power. All of the classes in it are hybrid classes, taking some things from two different classes to make something different.

An Investigator is a hybrid of Alchemist and Rogue. It does have a special class ability involving skills that makes it kind of effective as a skill meister. It is not more potent in combat that either of the base classes. In fact, it is kind of like a Bard, but one who has infusions rather than standard spells.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Zwordsman wrote:

Pretty sure investigators get 1/2 lv cause it's Advanced Classes, which is purpsofully made at a higher power level than current stuff (and also why some gms ban them for some story arcs).

I'd rather the occult level not be around ACG level of power and closer to the rest of the stuff.

Yeah, this is just not true. The ACG classes were just balanced against the mid tier classes in Pathfinder, like Bard, Alchemist, Ranger, Inquisitor, etc.

The reason they invalidate previous classes is because Rogues and Monks (the major ones being overridden) are...uh...kind of crappy. I definitely want Occult Adventures balanced against the average-good classes, instead of the lousy ones.


The problem with ACG stuff is the it's a lot more obvious when you invalidate a weak class like the Rogue because hey, the Rogue's two strict-betters are directly based on the Rogue. It makes comparison easy. It's not hard to look at a Sacred Fist, then look at a baseline Monk, and say that the Monk is worse... because it is, because the Monk has been weak for a long time and it's just as outclassed by lots of other stuff from long before the ACG.

But if we're talking, say, Hunter vs. Druid? Yeah I'm still going to take the Druid. Skald vs. Bard? Bard wins except in a very odd party. The comparison thing works both ways.

And I think the same is true for Occult Adventures. I'd use an Occultist over a Rogue any day of the week. That doesn't mean the Occultist is intentionally overpowered.


*shrugs* Like i said based on my experiences. Outside of specific builds no one I know touches Barbarians now that there are bloodragers, no one touches rougues now that investigators are around (but this was fairly true before). Slayers have compeltely replaced all the rangers, fighters and rogues I saw before. but I mainly play on roll20, and the skype game with my old friends (one of which is the guy whose banning them cause they look stronger)

I just want Occult ot be whatever power level is consistant haha. I have no real sense of what is right considering that group that bans ACG are type who can build lv 14-17 characters who can kill cr 25+ without even trying hard in the fight. I just can't build like they can. Pretty skewed perception these days. I'm like Krillian or yamcha hanging out with goku and vegeta.

I like where the classes are now sans "finishing details" every class need that everyones discussed. I just felt hte need to note that ACG is percieved as too powerful for some gm's. Felt it was worth while to note since I've only had one Gm out of 5-6 on Roll20 who allowed them. Whether they are powerful or not perception is a heavy handed thing.

and I so want to play kinetcists and mesmers. They're basically exactly the kind of builds I've always tried making haha.


Ranger still has some very nice edges over the Slayer, Rogue and Fighter are widely considered underpowered. Personally the only Fighter I would ever run is the Mutation Warrior. Rogue vs. Investigator is the same problem. Barbarian vs. Bloodrager... honestly that one surprises me. I personally vastly prefer the Barbarian for anything but a single combat between those two classes. If the Barbarian is in the same party as a Wizard, Sorcerer, Bard, Magus, etc., I'm taking him over the Bloodrager.

But... compare Gunslinger to Swashbuckler and consider which is stronger.


Zwordsman wrote:
Pretty sure investigators get 1/2 lv cause it's Advanced Classes, which is purpsofully made at a higher power level than current stuff (and also why some gms ban them for some story arcs).

Man: most things in that book are not that great (the warpriest only catches the fighter in the 2nd round of combat, the hunter probably does not get enough to make up for 2/3 casting, the slayer gives up some accuracy relative to the fighter, the Bloodrager does not really get anything as good as pounce, etc.). The investigator is still super MAD and needs to contort himself to really catch up with the fighter or swashbuckler for attack/damage (and the fighter is often considered to be one one of the worse martial classes). And the casting portion of the class does not really compliment the martial portion. Frankly, the Inquisitor may still be the stronger martial class for the rounds it can use its judgement and bane abilities and that class can also eventually quicken divine favor.

Let me do the inquisitor breakdown at level 18:
Judgements: +4 attack/+6 damage
Bane: +2 attack/+4d6 (14) damage
Quickened divine favor [second round]: +3 attack / +3 damage

Total attack: +6 [1st] +9 [2nd]
Total damage: +20 [1st] +23 [2nd]

And that does not take into account possible teamwork feat shenanigans and the fact that the class is great at bow builds that get the most out of making many attacks.

You are wrong, guy.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Zwordsman wrote:
Felt it was worth while to note since I've only had one Gm out of 5-6 on Roll20 who allowed them.

And I absolutely think that's a valuable observation. I don't play PFS and, so often, Society play is taken as the measure of all things, which I suspect may be why play at 12th level and beyond receives so little attention. Granted, PFS is a more stable environment than the aggregate of all home games, but it nevertheless brings a set of core assumptions about the game to the design process, I imagine. (Point buy, average hp, crafting feat restrictions, tiered parties, etc.)


kestral287 wrote:
But if we're talking, say, Hunter vs. Druid? Yeah I'm still going to take the Druid. Skald vs. Bard? Bard wins except in a very odd party. The comparison thing works both ways.

I used to think the Skald was a little weaker but I have been finding some super wacky builds for it. Beast totem 2 + wreckless abandon makes GMs cry (the natural armor bonus offsets the AC penalty so you are getting pretty solid accuracy increases for cheap) and all that will stack with good hope.

Skald is accidentally the best support class. It maybe should have been given a short list of rage powers or at least banned sharing totems.


Excaliburproxy wrote:


You are wrong, guy.

Didn't say I wasn't.

I qualified everything with "in my experience" because thats all I have. So I wanted to chime in what things look like from my perspective from the games I play online. Every viewpoint is valid because the world runs on percpetion so I included mine. Because it would be good if it's presented in a way that doesn't hit the tsame problems as ACG does with some people.

This book will have to fight on the "flavor front" as well, so it's good to mention all aspects isn't it? The thread announcing this book concept had people hating on it, and there are class bloat threads as well.
it's good to note every angle since presentation can defuse stilted perceptions. which inturns increases sales, which helps the company make more fun stuff like this. Cause this kind of weird stuff? This is what i want to play more often than not

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

I think we're getting off-topic by discussing the ACG. Let's reel it back in and focus on the kineticist. We only have so many days left to make our opinions and playtest experiences known. Let's make them count, eh?

For what it's worth, the pyro in my 9th-level, all-Occult Adventures playtest felt that the lack of iterative attacks made combat feel like each turn was an all-or-nothing endeavor. He didn't care for that, but that player is used to barbarians and switch-hitter rangers.


Zwordsman wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:


You are wrong, guy.

Didn't say I wasn't.

I qualified everything with "in my experience" because thats all I have. So I wanted to chime in what things look like from my perspective from the games I play online. Every viewpoint is valid because the world runs on percpetion so I included mine. Because it would be good if it's presented in a way that doesn't hit the tsame problems as ACG does with some people.

This book will have to fight on the "flavor front" as well, so it's good to mention all aspects isn't it? The thread announcing this book concept had people hating on it, and there are class bloat threads as well.
it's good to note every angle since presentation can defuse stilted perceptions. which inturns increases sales, which helps the company make more fun stuff like this. Cause this kind of weird stuff? This is what i want to play more often than not

Well, I think we should probably give a solid discount to opinions that arise from waves of animal spirits.

As time progresses people will eventually come to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the class that you make. You should always strive to make sure that your classes are actually functionally balanced rather than merely taking into account what your audience feels about that balance.


Excaliburproxy wrote:

Well, I think we should probably give a solid discount to opinions that arise from waves of animal spirits.

As time progresses people will eventually come to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the class that you make. You should always strive to make sure that your classes are actually functionally balanced rather than merely taking into account what your audience feels about that balance.

Yeah it went off topic on more to "presenting the power level" there.

not really the place for presentation-perception-profit concerns haha.

Didn't get the animal spirits comment but cool beans in either case.

I just want it to sell well cause this is the kind of unique corner case classes that I hope are kept going from Paizo.

anywho end o that ~

Does anyone remember all the stuff they said is probably going to change?
All I remember is the power increase likely hood

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Zwordsman wrote:
Does anyone remember all the stuff they said is probably going to change? All I remember is the power increase likely hood...

I don't recall. I think Mark has been very tight-lipped about whatever changes he plans to make to this class, which is such a shame since posters have been able to unlock additional spirits for the Medium to expand their playtest experience. :(


Zwordsman wrote:
Didn't get the animal spirits comment but cool beans in either case.

It was a reference to something John Meynard Keynes once wrote, I now realize. I forgot that was an economist thing.

Zwordsman wrote:

Does anyone remember all the stuff they said is probably going to change?

All I remember is the power increase likely hood

Well, he specifically said that it was likely burn would go to +1 accuracy and +2 damage. And then there was some stuff about sharpening specific mechanics (like the fire defense).


And apparently 10th level AOE (atleast for fire)

(Mark posted about his 13th level pyro doing damage to multiple enemies, and so far talents are 1/6/10/16)

Peter


Excaliburproxy wrote:

It was a reference to something John Meynard Keynes once wrote, I now realize. I forgot that was an economist thing.

I should look that up now. Neat

I'm liking the sound of the bonus damage stuff.

Hopefully Aetherist can ride the blast too. I suppose otherwise I'll use it an excuse to pick up another's defense
It would be cool if TK blast alters so it doens't damage the object. since then Ride the Blast could be you tking yourself for an epic jumpkick

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Zwordsman wrote:
It would be cool if TK blast alters so it doens't damage the object.

One would think that if the thin layer of aether prevents the object from bypassing material-based DR, that selfsame layer would protect the object as well.


I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?


Mikael Sebag wrote:
Tels wrote:
With a 2:1/4 and 1:1/4 ratio, the Kineticist would get +4 bonus on all attack and damage rolls, but with his blasts, he would get up to a +8 bonus to attack and damage rolls.

Hmm, interesting. Functionally, a 2:1/4 is an even better compromise than 1:1/2 as it necessitates less burn, but provides the same benefit, albeit spaced out a greater intervals. If I'm reading this correctly, you're in also in favor of granting half the 2:1/4 bonus (i.e., 1:1/4) to a kineticist's non-blast attacks? I could dig that. I presume it would apply to kinetic whip, fist, and blade? The combination is powerful, but better that than the 2:1/4 bonus to those attacks.

Obviously, addressing FtB is but one of many issues facing this class, but it's certainly a problem with addressing. Utility concerns have already and continue to be addressed in the Cool Things You Want thread and solving the skill problem is an easy fix.

I'm on the fence about the philosophy behind burn (I would LOVE to have some small pool of points to burn before I start taking nonlethal from overtaxing myself), but I sense it's likely to stay. So let's do what we can to help Mark perfect it!

I feel that Kinetic Blade/Whip should get the 1:1/4 ratio because it offers so many more attacks that you will, inevitably, deal more DPR than the single attack. At the same time, it would help set the two apart with the ranged blast being the more accurate, while the melee blast dealing more DPR.

Kinetic Fist is the odd duck out as it adds damage to an unarmed strike attack, and as a weapon based melee attack, it would only get the 1:1/4 ratio.

mplindustries wrote:
Tels wrote:
With a 2:1/4 and 1:1/4 ratio, the Kineticist would get +4 bonus on all attack and damage rolls, but with his blasts, he would get up to a +8 bonus to attack and damage rolls.
Do you know that, right now, FtB only applies to blasts as is? Are you suggesting they should get half to apply to all attacks?

I was actually unaware, I thought FtB applied to all attacks. Still, I would advocate getting half of the 2:1/4 ratio bonus on all attacks because the class should be able to make specific weapons and stuff viable. I don't want to forcibly shoehorn the class into only one style of play that makes it hard to do other things. Like the Cavalier, for example. So much of the Cavalier is designed around riding a mount and charging, that if you aren't riding a mount and charging, you have some real issues to face with the Cavalier. I would like to see the Kineticist have the 'option' of using weapons, but have FtB be strictly better when it comes to her blasts.


Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

Mark teased that there would be a 'nature Kineticist' archetype though nothing is definite. He's dropped a few hints at possible different archetypes that might exist, though the closest we could get to a 'sure thing' was a Bloodbender archetype, but even then, that's iffy.

Paizo Employee Designer

Tels wrote:
Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

Mark teased that there would be a 'nature Kineticist' archetype though nothing is definite. He's dropped a few hints at possible different archetypes that might exist, though the closest we could get to a 'sure thing' was a Bloodbender archetype, but even then, that's iffy.

I do not remember teasing a nature kineticist archetype.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

Mark teased that there would be a 'nature Kineticist' archetype though nothing is definite. He's dropped a few hints at possible different archetypes that might exist, though the closest we could get to a 'sure thing' was a Bloodbender archetype, but even then, that's iffy.
I do not remember teasing a nature kineticist archetype.

I think it was more of an offhand comment at some point about nature being a possible element or something, like plant bending from Avatar.


I am preparing to start a game as a Hydrokineticist the week after Thanksgiving, and I'm picking some starting gear (we're starting at 3rd). Part of my normal low level kit (if I have no access to Burning Hands or something similar) is some acid for dealing with swarms (because it's the cheapest splash weapon).

However, it occurred to me that there's some ambiguity here with Kinetic Blasts and swarms. Maybe my water blast (or at least some blast) can hurt swarms already.

Here are the relevant issues:

1) Tiny swarms take half damage from slashing and piercing weapons.
2) Fine/Diminutive swarms are immune to weapon damage
3) A swarm is immune to any spell or effect that targets a specific number of creatures
4) Ray spells affect swarms because they have an effect line, not a target line
5) Kinetic Blasts are spell like ablities, and have been confirmed to be "weaponlike" for the purposes of feats
6) Rays are "weaponlike," but I'm not aware of any other spells that are

So, there are a few possibilities as far as I can tell:

A) Kinetic Blasts are functionally weapons. So, I can water blast a Tiny swarm for full damage or half if it's slashing or piercing, but they are utterly ineffective vs. Fine/Diminutive swarms.

B) Kinetic Blasts are spell like abilities without a target line, like a ray, so they can hurt swarms of any size for full damage no matter the damage type

B2) As above except that, by being weaponlike, the kinetic blast will still deal half damage if it is piercing or slashing against a Tiny swarm and still does nothing against Fine/Diminutive swarms

C) Kinetic Blasts are (as far as I am aware) unprecedented weaponlike spell like abilities that have a specific number of targets and thus cannot harm swarms of any size at all

D) Something I'm not thinking of.

Further, swarms are susceptible to high winds. Does Air Blast have any special effect against them?

My personal feelings are that a water cannon should definitely be able to hurt swarms (as should a blast of air, smashing earth, a torrent of fire, etc), but I also think rays really shouldn't be able to hurt Swarms because even though they lack a target line, they obviously require you to aim and shoot a specific target, like a laser beam. So, I don't know.


Additionally question..
If you have Snaking. Can you angle it so it hits every inch of a 5ft square and have full damage vs the swarm?

I think the fire blast, air blast, and water should thematically hurt swarms.. Unless the rock was 5ft wide I dunno about the earth. lightening seems to focused as well. Same with TK (unless you have like a 5ft plate and you use tk control notblast)


So I've been reading through occult adventures and since I didn't do an actual playtest I believe this is the proper place to post about kineticist and here goes:

1) I really like kineticist, it feels kind of like a beautiful combination between wilder and warlock from D&D 3.5 and I like the various options for the elemental blasts.

2) Constitution is an interesting casting mod and I agree it makes sense considering to fuel a lot of your abilities causes you to effectively lose a Constitution modifier for the day.

3) Since it's only nonlethal you won't actually kill your character by using too much burn but there are definite drawbacks to "nova-ing" which is nice.

4) My only real "complaint" is I feel like the wild defenses should have some sort of duration so that a character doesn't just activate it at the beginning of the day, spend a move action to reduce the burn by 1 to enhance it a little, and then just have the enhanced wild defense running until they wake up the next day. If that is what was intended why not just make it a constant defense that you can spend burn to enhance?


Clockwork Kobold wrote:


4) My only real "complaint" is I feel like the wild defenses should have some sort of duration so that a character doesn't just activate it at the beginning of the day, spend a move action to reduce the burn by 1 to enhance it a little, and then just have the enhanced wild defense running until they wake up the next day. If that is what was intended why not just make it a constant defense that you can spend burn to enhance?

You can't actually use the move action to reduce the cost of defenses. the move action is restricted to "blast" effects.

So defense is free to activate once then burn for extra oomph.

It is active all day if you like it to be. Though frankly townsfolk and guards will not be happy if you walk into town hot andburning anyone who brushes agianst you or have cylcones all around, and usch. hence the ability to toggle on and off (without repaying what you paid to boost earlier)

So it would be a problem if it was on always without an ability to toggle it. Plus this way you can't sleep with it on and such.
or at least I'd have a hard time sleeping with a few of the defense options on.


Clockwork Kobold wrote:
4) My only real "complaint" is I feel like the wild defenses should have some sort of duration so that a character doesn't just activate it at the beginning of the day, spend a move action to reduce the burn by 1 to enhance it a little, and then just have the enhanced wild defense running until they wake up the next day. If that is what was intended why not just make it a constant defense that you can spend burn to enhance?

It is a constant defence, it's just a constant defence you can turn off if you want to not constantly be on fire when walking down the street.

Also you cannot spend a move-action to reduce the burn, as that only applies to blasts.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

The problems with this class go all the way to the roots.

Mark says he wants to balance the class perfectly. That's a horrible mistake. What we need isn't perfect balance; it's robust balance.

The class can put out exactly the right numbers against CR appropriate foes. It doesn't matter. The fight that really matters isn't the one against the exactly on-CR devil, it's the one against the APL+4 tricked out Asmodean cleric/hellknight who put up exactly the right spells to stymie you after he heard you fighting his guards. Not that you're going to do much against something with several energy resistances and alignment DR.

The fighter and paladin and barbarian and inquisitor and all those other martial and semimartial classes have enough excess accuracy to get through hellknight plate and a light shield and magic vestment on each and shield of faith and resist energy even if their iteratives become lost causes. Does the kineticist?

You can't balance around low accuracy/high damage because in the fights that matter low accuracy matters more than high damage. It doesn't matter how much damage you do if you miss. Variance is the enemy of balance and low accuracy/high damage is high variance. To be balanced against real challenges accuracy and ideal damage need to individually line up with similar classes, not the aggregate dpr. DPR isn't consistent enough for balance because not all creatures of any CR have the "right" AC and every point of relative accuracy doesn't have the same effect on damage. It's only good for casual comparisons.

You also can't balance around high stats. Some people roll stats or use low point buy no dumping or the elite array. If you need more than 16 starting in your high stat to cut it your class is too brittle. Some people actually use the item availability rules. The barbarian doesn't care if she finds a longsword or a glaive or a greataxe. Any martial weapon she can put two hands on will do and some of the simple weapons are also acceptable. If she finds a nicer weapon than expected and lags a bit on the stat belt or visa versa it's a wash. The kineticist needs the right belt and any weapons he finds are vendor trash at a 50% discount if the GM lets them get at a large enough city to not have to roll for individual items. The paladin doesn't even need to find a good weapon, she can use divine bond as a substitute when it really matters. Just because fighters have a flaw of being excessively finicky about gear doesn't mean it's okay for new classes to share the flaw.


Milo v3 wrote:
Clockwork Kobold wrote:
4) My only real "complaint" is I feel like the wild defenses should have some sort of duration so that a character doesn't just activate it at the beginning of the day, spend a move action to reduce the burn by 1 to enhance it a little, and then just have the enhanced wild defense running until they wake up the next day. If that is what was intended why not just make it a constant defense that you can spend burn to enhance?

It is a constant defence, it's just a constant defence you can turn off if you want to not constantly be on fire when walking down the street.

Also you cannot spend a move-action to reduce the burn, as that only applies to blasts.

[QUOTE ="Occult adventures playtest"] Burn: If she has both hands free, as a move action,....reduce the burn of a WILD TALENT used in the same round by 1 point...."

"Elemental Defense(Ex): At 2nd level, a kineticist gains her element's defense WILD TALENT."

Granted it is only one point which is pretty negligible you can do that. What I'm trying to get at is it seems less like it should be an ability and more of just a static bonus you can buff with burning. If you want it to be constant then allow it to be suppressed. If it should have some sort of activation then give it a duration so you have to activate it for combat.


Clockwork Kobold wrote:

"

"Elemental Defense(Ex): At 2nd level, a kineticist gains her element's defense WILD TALENT."
Granted it is only one point which is pretty negligible you can do that. What I'm trying to get at is it seems less like it should be an ability and more of just a static bonus you can buff with burning. If you want it to be constant then allow it to be suppressed. If it should have some sort of activation then give it a duration so you have to activate it for combat.

Check the first page. That move action thingy was clarified to have meant "blast wild talents"


First post.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

This thread is for general discussion of the Kineticist base class, found in the Occult Adventures Playtest document. This thread should be used for general impressions and overall concerns and ideas. Feedback on a specific concept or rule should have its own thread created by you.

As a reminder, please be polite and courteous to your fellow posters. We are all here to endeavor to create a better play experience with these rules and excessive arguing and insults are inappropriate.

Thank you again for participating in the Occult Adventures Playtest

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

OFFICAL UPDATES:

In the burn ability in the second paragraph in the first sentence, add the word "blast" before "wild talent".

Entangling Infusion should require kineticist level 6th.

Burn damage cannot be reduced or redirected.

OFFICIAL CLARIFICATIONS:

In the force ward defensive ability, when you end and reactivate your force ward, it does not refill the force ward with hit points. Those only refresh at a rate of 1 per minute.

Kinetic blade uses the same critical range and multiplier as a usual kinetic blast (which is 20/x2). Since it is used as part of a full attack or attack action, it doesn't have its own additional action cost, but you still can only use one instance of kinetic blade with your full attack (that is, you can't summon up 50 kinetic blades, but you can make a full attack with the one blade you did summon). The same is true for kinetic whip. You can use kinetic blade and whip with the charge action as well. Since these wild talents are part of another action, they do not provoke attacks of opportunity, as per the rules on swift and free actions vs. attacks of opportunity.


My bad somehow I read over that.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Are any of the aether abilities presented for the Telekinetic at 4th actually supposed to be obtainable at 4th? As it stands all of the telekinetic's wild talents he gains access to at 4th are not takeable until 6th.

Has their been any errata on this?


Ring_of_Gyges wrote:


Telekinesis Talents:
It seemed odd during character creation that Telekinetic Finesse and Telekinetic Maneuver were different powers. What can one say of someone with Finesse & Haul but not Maneuver? He has the power to lift 1,000lbs, the control to pick a lock, but can't use telekinesis to trip someone or pull an item off their belt. I'm not taking a position on how many talents a Kineticist should get, but whatever number it is, it seems weird that Maneuver and Finesse are different talents.

This, +1.

This ended up being our first house-rule on the Telekineticist. If you have Finesse and Haul, you can automatically use Telekinetic Maneuvers.

[EDIT]
But only for Disarm or Trip. Didn't remember that Telekinesis had so many more Maneuvers when I posted. :P
[/EDIT]


1 person marked this as a favorite.

A recommendation... Can the Wild Talents be made more utility-inclusive.

Example... "Touchsight" for Telekinesis only shows its combat usefulness. Touchsight can be so much more, the ability to "feel" things, giving bonuses to Disable Device for example, or for detecting an illusion by spending a move action to "feel" something.

Kinetic Healer could give an Aether boost to Craft skills (since I'm supposing the reason Aethers can heal is because they can realign broken bones, close off leaking veins, etc...)

And personally... I think someone got TK and Air backwards on the whole flight thing... :P Pushing Air around to get yourself into the air would more akin to Jets, and maneuvering your body (without needing an outside force) seems more along the lines of Wings of Air... And I say this as a Sylph who has Wings of Air as a feat so doesn't even need/want either of those. Thematically, it just makes more sense to me that TK has the better flight, and air the uncontrolled flight.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Clockwork Kobold wrote:
4) My only real "complaint" is I feel like the wild defenses should have some sort of duration so that a character doesn't just activate it at the beginning of the day, spend a move action to reduce the burn by 1 to enhance it a little, and then just have the enhanced wild defense running until they wake up the next day. If that is what was intended why not just make it a constant defense that you can spend burn to enhance?

It actually originally was a constant-on, before it got to us it was pointed out to Mark that sometimes you might want to turn it off. Thus it was made toggleable. That said, "activate it at the beginning of the day, enhance it a little, and then just have it running until they wake up the next day" is pretty much the cornerstone of the Kineticist playbook.

You can actually see that a few times through the class. The reason we get Wild Talents at 7 and 15, and Expanded Element is a Talent instead of something built into the class? Same thing. Was a class feature, was pointed out that some people might not want to take it, now it's not a class feature.

doc the grey wrote:

Are any of the aether abilities presented for the Telekinetic at 4th actually supposed to be obtainable at 4th? As it stands all of the telekinetic's wild talents he gains access to at 4th are not takeable until 6th.

Has their been any errata on this?

There's not meant to be. The "Level" listed there, as noted earlier in the section, is their effective spell level. This is distinct from the requirements to take them. The only places those two match up is level one.


Maizing wrote:

I had an idea for a kineticist character that works with plants and the like (I based this on a picture I found that I plan to use to represent the character), but the closest I could find to match this concept is the earth focused kineticist.

Is there any chance of the elemental focus of kineticists being expanded?

I am Groot!


How about a "Improved Defenses" option?

While I see Mark's idea of a scaling and burn-refiling Aether defense as a good improvement, I think it could enhanced with a wild talent later.

What if the kineticist could refill his temporary HP with a standard (or maybe move) action? At higher levels it would not overpower anyone and could provide the flavor of the sustained field.

Other elements could have increased options as well. Water could have an entangling shield, earth could gain natural armor, fire could gain resistances/immunities...


that was 3400, in this thread

3,351 to 3,400 of 4,774 << first < prev | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Occult Adventures Playtest / Rules Discussion / General Discussion: Kineticist All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.