General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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Perhaps also any object which has concealment from you also has concealment from the animated object, so that it further emphasizes that you are directly controlling it, even if it moves somewhat independently?


@Shiroi

Honestly, most of what you ask would be doable with the perceived idea of what telekinesis is. The line is really stuff like animating an army of suits. I could see a bunch of suits being flung (kinda the default usage of the Simple Blast for Aether anyhows), and in the process creating difficult terrain... or even whirling them in a spin that had their arms extended through centrifugal force. But animating them (even if puppet-strings is the concept) would be impossible for the same reasons that trying to play a Wii game (or any console game)with 2 controllers for 2 characters at once is pretty impossible. And the clunkiness of trying to actually use one well in a fight should be obvious....

The throwing a kitchen full of knives would surely be ok. Most won't hit and at least half that do hit wouldn't be hitting pointy-end-first (though I could indeed imagine it being possible to not only get all the pointy ends hitting first, but all the knives... at higher levels, indicative of the greater damage the Simple Blast does at higher levels...). But again, this is just the default simple blast being put to use (though I would allow an AoE as a possibility, and maybe some burn).

The trebuchet example is too magical though. I could see you whipping the trebuchet across the battlefield like a blunt instrument, but not getting it to look like a beast in action, slamming things with its oversized arm. You could even get the trebuchet to launch heavy objects (even without the counterweight). But there's a point where it stops being telekinesis and starts being arcane, and that's a point I'd hate to see this class cross.


I can respect that. More complex and less manual effects could really be relegated to an archetype like Ectokineticist, or an archetype which specializes in summoning Force elementals, which need a physical shell to operate within, or some similar design. I feel like the ability to apply Dancing to a weapon (and advance it from there with increasing the number of rounds the weapon can dance and the range at which it can do so) would benefit the base class at least though. I still see no reason why I can't use my sword's "cold iron, magic, lawful" to bypass DR. A dancing ability that costs burn would at least make it reasonable for me to carry a normal weapon instead of just my handful of things to Tele-blast around. (I'm currently carrying a stack of shuriken, a stack of darts, and a few lengths of chain with steel balls at each end, none of it enchanted or special material in any way.)


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I really don't see how moving a suit of armour to make it walk doesn't fit telekinesis... Your moving the suit telekinetically with your mind.... It doesn't suddenly become a character from Beauty and the Beast, it is just something your moving, which is completely and utterly in telekinesis's range of abilities.


Milo v3 wrote:
I really don't see how moving a suit of armour to make it walk doesn't fit telekinesis... Your moving the suit telekinetically with your mind.... It doesn't suddenly become a character from Beauty and the Beast, it is just something your moving, which is completely and utterly in telekinesis's range of abilities.

I think he's saying that after a certain level of complexity it becomes impossible for a human mind to keep up with. I can get it, if you limit it to me having to control and manipulate every single piece with flawless precision. On the other hand, I can picture a humanoid form in my head that moves around as I decide, with somewhat lurching, robotic motions, and I can manipulate this little stick figure creature in my head even while I'm typing. With a little mental conditioning I can see me being able to control it to do *useful* tasks while I'm typing as well. Mental ambidexterity. If you don't have to pay full attention to it, if you can split your conscious thoughts into two streams and let one operate independently of the other, then this idea makes sense... Except for if it's behind you or on the other side of a wall. In which case, I could make it lumber a particular pattern, but not really have it *successfully* do much because it doesn't have eyes and I can't see what it's doing.

That, I think, is mostly the problem here. That for it to be me controlling every aspect of the item moving, I have to be able to see it. That limits it to only moving when I'm glancing in that direction, or moving very clumsily and blindly flailing when I'm not. It feels like "what I can do" as far as making a trebuchet tilt sideways and swipe with the arm every few feet and roll along and such, is less limiting than what "I can't do" which is control it effectively. When the object still takes your standard action to do anything, you control it by looking at it and using your mind. But if Tele- got the option to spend a burn to make the object independant, like the Elemental from Spark of Life can, then we'd step from creating a body of elemental material and giving it a consciousness from the elemental planes, to exerting our will over an object but having no way to see from that object's point of view or control it in a natural feeling way. Mechanically, you'd have to let it operate as a summoned monster or similar rules with the possible exception of needing to remain in LoS and LoE. But even then, it gets dicey when you deal with things that have concealment to you, because the object has no eyes of it's own.

Ultimately, it's a cool idea, but I feel like we're going to spin in circles trying to make it work mechanically and also work with realistic telekineticist physics in mind. It's going to feel a little like a magic effect if you don't bog it down with so many qualifiers that it becomes semi-useless. That's why I advertise the Ectokineticist as the ideal archetype for this, because ghosts can be the external consciousness that controls the object, who can see around it and react accordingly. A new "force elemental" that requires material to surround itself with would also work, again an external and distinct consciousness that can control and see through the object. In theory, if Ghosts are from the Ethereal Plane, Force Elementals would be from the Astral Plane.

Either solution would be fine, and offer additional bestiary support. I feel like Possessor Ghosts would be a more acceptable addition to the bestiary, and a better fit for the Occult Adventures book as well. There's already a lot of Elementals, but ghosts that specifically do ghostly things like possession and general haunting are not as common as the "wraith" type ghosts that are really just pissed off ethereal people.

I would use the Animated Objects design for possessed items, and give the Possessor Ghost a statblock for when you boot it out of objects. Basically you'd need to destroy every item in the area that it could possess, then kill it, but for each time you destroy an object it's possessing it takes an amount of damage depending on how large that item was. So a CR 11 Possessor Ghost has 11 HD, and if it starts off by possessing a size small object, it takes 2 average HD worth of damage when that object is destroyed. It still has up to 9 HD worth of possessing left in it, so it goes after a size Huge item next. When that is destroyed, the ghost flees it and takes 7 average HD worth of damage. It now has 2 HD left. It tries to get into a size Small item again, but someone gets in a shot with a ghost touch weapon or a magic missile, and reduces it to 1 HD worth of HP left, rounded down. It can only possess a size tiny object now, and moves to the chest of silverware to possess a spoon. Hopefully the heroes can't figure out what it possessed and will leave it alone to heal now, but when the cleric casts Detect Undead and points it out, it throws itself at him in desperate revenge.

That could be a theoretical encounter with a Possessor Ghost, and the CR for the encounter would be based on what items are available to it to possess, and how many HD it starts with. In natural form, the Possessor Ghost would deal in cold damage, stat damage, force effects, or possibly cast a few spells, depending on how powerful the Devs wanted to make them outside of their shells. But still, as the name implies, this would be a last resort for a Possessor caught with no unattended items nearby.

With that in mind, an option for the Ectokineticist Archetype to further separate it from the Telekineticist would possibly be a Possessor Ghost as a leveling companion, gained around LvL 4 and treated as having 3 fewer HD at all times, regenerating HD up to it's normal max at a rate of 1 per hour. This makes Colossal size possessions possible, but not until level 16, where they'd be pretty reasonable. It gives the Ecto a way to animate objects and have them run around hurting things, but not out of line with those created by Summoned Monsters anyways. In fact, the more I look, the more I think it's on the exact same track for HD as a summon monster spell. Cool, once in a while I get things right. Anyways, this might be a neat way to differentiate Ecto from Tele, giving it a side companion and a few Ecto only Forms and Substances, as well as a Touch Bludgeoning ball of Ectoplasm for a touch attack that isn't Force, since the Devs don't seem to want to give Force as a normal attack for this class until LvL 15, when it's no longer dealing enough damage to be worth it often.


And to add to what Shiroi said... A Telekinetic is moving, not possessing a suit of armour. Suits of armour, without a person inside, are actually fragile, and come apart rather easily. A solid punch will likely remove that arm from the suit of armour. Similarly with other objects, like a trebuchet... When using it in a method not created for, you tend to break it unless it is possessed.


I would note that "Aether" meaning spirit so you could pottentially have posession like that rather than TK control.
Sorta like how some Personas act in Megumi Tensei's side series. Persona. Shard off your mental capacity/subconcious that takes over it.


I can see spirit as a *very* loose translation of Aether, looping through *shine, spark, power, life force, spirit* as a chain of thought. But without such a big loop I'm not seeing any reference to aether as spirit in classical implications. Could you reference for me?
I'd prefer not to use such a long translation gap as evidence for plausibility if we can help it.

And for clarification, in game terms ether, while closely related to aether, is clearly distinct and of the two feels far closer related to ghosts and spirits than aether itself.


Pretty sure Aether is used due to its definition as the fifth element. The element that accomodates movement and motion (though scientifically, that had more to do with celestial bodies and how light travels, if I remember correctly).


@Sphynx : Yeah, I agree it may have been a contributing factor to choosing Aether as the name. Tele was an obvious choice to put in here, but going Aether as the name for it was probably related to the origins of the name. As far as someone putting tele in here just because of that reference, it feels a little more shaky ground there. I'd say the name was probably the only thing it influenced.

I can honestly see someone making a 3rd party interpretation of this class, making it 5 (or more) separate classes. Then they can be balanced as solo elements, and you can multiclass elements to any imaginable degree. You'd have levels in any elemental class contribute to some abilities (such as damage with blasts scaling normally) but your utility and such would be based on a given element's class levels. With that method, you'd be able to mix and match elements more cleanly, I feel, and you'd sacrifice your high level utility powers of any given element for the ability to pick and choose damage types on your basic blast and a few low level utilities from the other elements. You'd then make two capstone abilities per class, one for "pure element" only, and one that you get when "total levels in elemental classes" equals 20. So you never really give up your capstone to multiclass, but you get a unique bonus for solo elementals as well.

Given that we got more interest and playtest data from this class than most of the others in the book combined, I don't feel that a whole (softcover) book for different options for this class would be entirely unwarranted.


I wonder if the Kineticist class would fit the theme of this book more if its power came from elemental spirits rather than him just opening a gate to the elemental planes?

Heck, it would be pretty awesome for a pyrokineticist to be getting his flames from the spirit of a gold dragon or something.


Matrix Dragon wrote:

I wonder if the Kineticist class would fit the theme of this book more if its power came from elemental spirits rather than him just opening a gate to the elemental planes?

Heck, it would be pretty awesome for a pyrokineticist to be getting his flames from the spirit of a gold dragon or something.

Thematically, you could well claim these abilities to be exactly that. I'm not opening a portal to the elemental plane of water, I actually have a water elemental trapped inside me. Makes sense for Kinetic Body too, since now I'm just swapping which of the two of us is on the outside of the sandwich.


A persona user like archetype would be cool, having a physical manifestation of your psyche as a creature(animal companion, eidolon, phantasm, etc.).

I would like an ability that acts as the animate object spell. You could control a object and it would work like the animate object creature but limited by size and number like only one large or bigger object but maybe multiple smaller ones would be cool.


Dragon78 wrote:

A persona user like archetype would be cool, having a physical manifestation of your psyche as a creature(animal companion, eidolon, phantasm, etc.).

I would like an ability that acts as the animate object spell. You could control a object and it would work like the animate object creature but limited by size and number like only one large or bigger object but maybe multiple smaller ones would be cool.

Read a few posts up, Possessor Ghost, as an animal companion for an Ectokineticist, and as a stand alone bestiary entry. Let me know what all you'd do to improve that one, because I may try my hand at 3rd partying that out if the Devs don't want to use it.


I'd rather a persona user-like archetype over a telekinetic ghost companion archetype. Especially when persona user archetype can work with all of the elements rather than just Aether and Air.


I just started reading Kineticist earlier today and overall I like it, but I have some questions/ comments about it. Considering half of the element types make you go up against normal AC, and a lot of the expanded elemental blasts have the same issue of going against normal AC, how have people been dealing with the low to hit of the class? It doesn't get too much feat support that I've seen, and it isn't affected by magic items to increase its to hit. It also seems kind of inconsistent to me with the "why" of when something is touch attack and when it is a normal range attack. Fire is range touch, but magma is just normal ranged? Blizzard damage is normal range, ice is range touch. If you take the time to invest into the telekinetic haul and use something insanely heavy to throw, you don't even get a damage bonus for it, or even consider the 400lbs minimum you are throwing at someone a touch attack? It just seems overly complicated at times.

A side thing, and I think I understand from a balance standpoint, but it does feel odd that someone can manifest say, a rock dagger and do full blast damage with the strike (kinetic weapon), but when he covers his fist with stone and punch someone with it you do 1d6 per two levels/3 on top of your normal unarmed damage with no con mod bonus of damage. It feels wonky when first looked at, though it seems like it is to balance with multiclass Kineticist/Monk(or brawler) builds. Though at the same time, that same build could wield a kukri/scythe/sap/etc made out of stone/ice/water/air/electricity/fire and flurry of blows with the same weapon over and over again while doing full blast damage.

And I know it is a playtest document, but the layout of Kineticist is confusing to read at times. You read a lot about magma, metal, blizzard, etc. before you actually know what it is or that you can blend two elements. I know I read in the thread that Mark said it was because playtesters wanted a choice to not choose it, but I feel by offering it the same way other classes would give you a choice it would work as a class ability again. Present it as either getting a new element or doubling down on the same element. It already is listed as a special wild talent, but you don't get that it is a "special" wild talent until pg 14, which is 11 pages into the class. It is confusing then, as you have no idea it is coming the first time you read it. And that is a big deal with the abilities, they feel jumbled being listed alphabetically. I think it might work better as being listed by element, then universal, and then the mixed abilities. Its categorized better that way and makes it easier to understand.

Having said that, its the occult class I'm most exited for, I just was a little confused reading some of the abilities.


Archetype idea....

I'm thinking what this class most needs is a more utility-based capacity. The problem being that the BAB is medium and the damage is high. So, thinking about creating an archetype that has "stunts" at the cost of BAB. Check this out... :D

**NOTE: This is not intended to be "as powerful" as the base class, quite the opposite. It's intended for doing things and perhaps battlefield control in lieu of damage.

ARCHETYPE NAME (Undecided)

Prerequisites: Kineticist with primary element of aether.

Reduced BAB: At 3rd, 7th, 11th and 15th level gain a cumulative -1 to class BAB.
(This puts it equal to low-BAB classes except at 19th/20th level)

Specialists: At 5th, 8th and 13th level, treat your level as a cumulative +1 (6th, 10th and 16th) for the purpose of qualifying for Wild Talents.
(Not entirely sold on this, but some of the stunts I envision need some higher-level Talents earlier to be useful. Of note, with the probable +1 Wild Talent feat, it works like this. If such a feat doesn't exist, this would change to "At 8th level, treat your level as +2 for the purpose of qualifying for Wild Talents").

STUNTS: Starting at 4th level, every time you gain a Wild Talent you gain 2 Stunts that you meet the prerequisites for.

Here are some example stunts I have written on paper, a beginning to what I hope to be an exhaustive list. :) I sincerely hope many people will add in stunts of their own.

  • Reactionary Defense: Prerequisites = Touchsight + Force Barrier. For 1 burn, you can as an immediate action react to an attack with a raised barrier which grants you a DR 10/Magic. You can change this to either DR 15/Magic or DR 10/- by spending an additional Burn.

  • Force Wall: Prerequisites = Kinetic Cover + Force Barrier. Your Force Barrier can be in the shape of a wall extending a length of 5' + 5'/2 levels.

  • Telekinetic Flight: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Self Telekinesis + Telekinetic Haul. As a standard action you gain a supernatural fly speed of 30'(Good). This improves to 60'(Perfect) with Self Telekinesis, Greater. The effect lasts until you dispel it, or it is dispelled.

  • Ranged Theft: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Touchsight. You can steal from a range of 30' on a successful Sleight of Hand roll with a +2 bonus. This range extends to 120' if you have the Extended Range Talent but without the +2 bonus. If used in combat on a target within 30', the target does not get the +5 to his CMD, but you do not get the +2 bonus.

  • Combat Trip: Prerequisite = Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. You can perform the Trip combat maneuver with the range equal to your telekinetic blast. Use Dexterity in place of Strength, and use your level in place of you BAB for your combat maneuver bonus.

  • Repulsion: Prerequisites = Many Throw + Telekinetic Maneuvers. As a full round action, you send anything within 30' and not fastened to the ground, flying. Everything is pushed 5' per point of burn (up to your maximum burn), directly away from the telekinetic unless it is stopped by an un-moving object such as a wall. Anyone who succeeds in a Fortitude save takes no damage and remains in place. Everything else takes half damage as if hit by a telekinetic blast. The burn from this stunt cannot be offset by any means.

  • Whirlwind: Prerequisites = Many Throw + Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. As a standard action you create a whirlwind with a 10' radius of flying objects which grants total concealment. Entering or starting your turn in the area of the whirlwind causes 1d6 points of nonlethal bludgeoning damage.

  • Many Hands: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Haul + Telekinetic Finesse. You are treated as having a number of hands equal to your dexterity bonus when using Light Touch. This still allows for an amount of weight that Telekinetic Haul grants, but the total amount of weight for all the objects can not exceed the limitation of Telekinetic Haul.

  • Enemy Toss: Prerequisites = Foe Throw + Telekinetic Haul + Extended Range. Target makes a fortitude save or gets tossed 120' into the air, taking appropriate falling damage if applicable. This stunt always costs 1 burn which can not be offset in any way. This requires a standard action.

  • Fickly Fingers: Prerequisites = Telekinetic Finesse + Touchsight. You can simulate physical effects and senses such as setting off traps, feeling how sharp something is, etc. While having no combat advantage, it would be felt if you slapped someone in the face with this, or pulled their hair. Anything you can do with Light Touch can be "felt" as you do it.


Shiroi wrote:

I can see spirit as a *very* loose translation of Aether, looping through *shine, spark, power, life force, spirit* as a chain of thought. But without such a big loop I'm not seeing any reference to aether as spirit in classical implications. Could you reference for me?

I'd prefer not to use such a long translation gap as evidence for plausibility if we can help it.

And for clarification, in game terms ether, while closely related to aether, is clearly distinct and of the two feels far closer related to ghosts and spirits than aether itself.

hum honestly thats how i thought K-Healer worked. You were taking pieces of your self to infuse and heal them. for Aether anyway. Water is the typical "life force of the planet thing.

Aether rather than the normal "I control with my mind!" I've been viewing it more like "The Way" from an old book series (was it forgtten realms? maybe dark sun? man can't remember) I love.. I really wish I could remember what it was.. 5 books. It started out with most of the mai ncharacters being in arena, breaking out. eventually finding an Obsidian Spehre that amplified psionic power. fighting giants and a war and such. The main girl had that awesome obsidian flask... and hte magic worked off planet life-and using too much can destroy a part of the land..

but anyway "the way" in that is basically a Aetherist. Except kinda combined with Ki (from martial arts not pathfinder) ideas. You control things by imparting part of your own soul to control it (it returns when you break the connection). he used that to throw daggers accurately (but also felt the knife going in from the Knife's point of view.. feeling the flesh part the blood gush etc). He'd also used part of his soul to hold a body together and speed it's healing.

This is how I was kinda fluffing my Aetherist to be honest. I sorta liked that.. using part of your self to aim the power.

Edit: found the books
Prism Pentad - Troy Denning
The Verdant Passage (October 1991), (ISBN 1-56076-121-0)
The Crimson Legion (April 1992), (ISBN 1-56076-260-8)
The Amber Enchantress (October 1992), (ISBN 1-56076-236-5)
The Obsidian Oracle (June 1993), (ISBN 1-56076-603-4)
The Cerulean Storm (September 1993), (ISBN 1-56076-642-5)

man these were good books as a kid... I wonder how they held up. I don't even know if Dark Sun is still a thing


I like the idea Sphynx, but for wording and consistency I would have it replace FtB instead of directly messing with BAB. Nothing ever directly affects BAB to my knowledge, not to mention how everyone has brought up BAB being tied to hit dice. But if you sacrifice FtB you give up the pseudofull BAB that the normal class has. It's a harsh drawback, but opens the way to greater rewards. Now you can instead say that you treat your level as +x higher for the purposes of qualifying for talents... Or, Devs could flood those ideas of yours in as talents themselves, and your archetype sacrifices burn for six (or more or less depending on how balance was decided, I feel like you'd actually say 10 or so) EXTRA talents, which would about be the only way to make getting your extra talents viable in that scenario.

This may not quite mash with yow you imagined it, but to me it feels like it fits more closely with the archetype package concept, since it modifies a few packages of the class rather than the chassis of the class itself.

That said, why the prerequisite aether, air? You're building a battlefield controller, water is my favorite for that anyways. All the elements could benefit from this kind of archetype, I feel, which is part of why I feel like shifting focus from a separate list of stunts to a vastly expanded list of talents that the normal classes probably won't take for build reasons is more ergonomic. Sure, any build could take these, but they're focused on other things. This archetype has room to take them and a will to use them.

That being said, I'd like to see TK get a force grapple, that considers both targets grappled but not in the same squares. I use my con mod for CMB/CMD calculations, things like armor spikes and searing flesh don't work because of the distance, and my enemy cannot reverse the grapple unless they also have some way to TK grapple. It's basically a way to tie down an enemy and deal some nonlethal choke out damage. Possibly even just cause suffocation and not deal damage if it still feels OP.


I like the idea of dropping FtB, it does make more sense than manually editing the BAB in the archetype.

The trouble with making more talents is, there's already too many talents. Even if I do every feat as a +1 Talent, there's at least 20 talents I need/want (and waiting til level 20 for it all is painful since most are well below level 20 at power level). Didn't really understand what you meant about burn for six or ten.

Pre-requisite was only Aether, not air. And honestly, just because I never bothered to even look at the other elements. I only know Aether, and trying to write something for stuff I don't know would be wrong. I'd be perfectly ok with Stunts that covered all different elements, but I couldn't write them.

We have force-grapple (Telekinetic Maneuvers). The reason I went ahead and added some but not all of the Telekinesis maneuvers was because that Talent already exists. Didn't want to make it a moot point to take that Talent.


Suggested FEAT for the class: (different topic than the other stuff)

Reduced Cost Talents:
Prerequisite: Level 6 Kineticist.
Get 2 first level kinetic talents of your primary element instead of a level four talent when selecting your Wild Talents.

Advanced Reduced Cost Talents:
Prerequisite: Level 10 Kineticist, Reduced Cost Talents.
Get 2 level four kinetic talents of your primary element instead of a level 6 talent when selecting your Wild Talents

Etc....


@Sphynx

I have wondered some times in this thread if you were maybe playing a different game than me.

First, the damage should be high, but isn't, yet. Given that 1d6 is 3.5 average, kineticists deal 4.5+con at level 1, while an npc warrior with a greatsword and power attack does 10+1.5str. At level 3, kineticists are up to 10+con, but, yeah, still less. You'd think it gets better at 5th, but power attack goes up at 4th, so it's 14.5+con vs. 13+1.5str.

Now, empowered,yeah, our damage spikes up, but that means we finally beat an npc warrior, but only if we can empower and only if they don't have, say, cleave.

A fighter would have more feats and weapon training and a magic weapon in there (a barbarian would have rage, paladin smite, etc.), so, even empowered, our hits are not as strong and our accuracy is lower, too (which is ok, if we get enough damage to actually balance that).

Second, none of those stunts look especially useful to me. CL + Casting stat is quickly rendered pointless as a CMB substitute because CMD scales too fast, and anyone serious about maneuvers needs magic items, feats, and size increases to have any hope of staying relevant. Plus, 90% of combat maneuvers are pointless anyway and you'd contribute more just hitting them.

Force Wall looks "ok" and enemy toss ranges from useless (indoors, ceilings rarely eclipse 20 feet and lots of enemies can fly) to ridiculous (12d6 danage at like 6th level is kind of excessive).

If you want battlefield control, you need ways to inflict conditions--create zones of difficult terrain, inflict entangled, sickened, staggered, grappled, stunned, etc., zones of damage, etc.

So, I am curious, what are your games about? What happens in a typical one that would make this archetype worthwhile?


For the ranged touch attack blasts, such as electric, cold, or fire blasts, would the Mage's Crossbow be any useful for the kineticist?

Quote:

This +2 light crossbow is made of silver that never needs to be polished.

A mage's crossbow is especially effective against creatures with spell resistance. Against such creatures, the weapon's effective enhancement bonus increases to +3, and it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage. Whenever the wielder casts a spell that requires him to make a ranged touch attack (such as a ray) while he has the crossbow in hand, he gains a bonus on his ranged attack roll equal to the crossbow's enhancement bonus against the target creature. If the spell hits, the caster also applies this bonus to the caster level check to overcome the target's spell resistance (if any) and on the spell's damage roll (if any).

Does casting a spell-like ability, such as a fire blast, count for the "whenever the wielder casts a spell that requires him to make a ranged touch attack" requirement of the weapon to benefit the attack roll bonus and caster level check against spell resistance?


Sphynx wrote:

I like the idea of dropping FtB, it does make more sense than manually editing the BAB in the archetype.

The trouble with making more talents is, there's already too many talents. Even if I do every feat as a +1 Talent, there's at least 20 talents I need/want (and waiting til level 20 for it all is painful since most are well below level 20 at power level). Didn't really understand what you meant about burn for six or ten.

Pre-requisite was only Aether, not air. And honestly, just because I never bothered to even look at the other elements. I only know Aether, and trying to write something for stuff I don't know would be wrong. I'd be perfectly ok with Stunts that covered all different elements, but I couldn't write them.

We have force-grapple (Telekinetic Maneuvers). The reason I went ahead and added some but not all of the Telekinesis maneuvers was because that Talent already exists. Didn't want to make it a moot point to take that Talent.

That's what I'm saying, you replace FtB entirely from the class in this archetype, and instead get Talents EVERY level instead of every other (if balance requires you to get 10 extra talents in place of FtB) or an Extra Talent every time you would otherwise have gotten an increase to FtB (if 6 is the number of Talents that would be equivalent to FtB), or some similar situation in which you get additional talents at certain levels in place of getting the bonus to-hit and damage of FtB. Then your "Stunts" can become talent ideas that most normal Kineticists would never need/want/have the room to take, but a Kineticist with your "Talented" Archetype would have ample room to take advantage of.

If you still really want to deny the regular Kineticist access to these "Stunts" you could instead make them Talents that this Archetype has access to, on a separate list that the normal Kineticists don't see, but I don't see a huge reason to make that distinction since most Kineticists are struggling to get their regular talents anyways, let alone these.


Hello everyone,

sorry for my english but i'm not a native speaker.
This is the first time i post in this forum but i followed the evolution of this class with interest.
Unfortunately i couldn't test the class untill few days ago and i think i may be late but i want to give my impression.
I didn't gathered precise data so they are, as i said, only impressions and i know that many already stated the same things but here what i think:

1) I like the burn mechanic.
2) The class need a in-class combat style, something minor like a selection between an array of talents like weapon finesse or precise shoot o something similar. Just one, i think it will be more than enough.
At least one talent is a must have (I.e: weapon finesse if you want to go melee, precise shot if you want to go ranged) for the class to work, in a sense or another so i think it's better to have in-class than relay on the general feats.
3) The designer stated that he want not this class to be in the same league of a dedicated archer for the damage output and it's ok but than it needs a lot more utilities.
I'm not speaking about a more rich selection, i'm aware that there are a lot more wild talents incoming than what we see now, but i think that, especially in mid level, the Kinetic
as it is will not have enough wild talents to be effective and funny in combat and out of combat.
After taking what you need for combat and for expand elements i think it will be a small room for utilities but the class is not a top in anything so needs something else "fun" to do.
Someone suggested some powers tied to the chosen element. i don't agree, i think it needs just more wild talents, maybe separating utility from combat but we have a good mechanic to be more customizable here, let it be that. Maybe i don't want to fly, just to say some cool power, and i prefer something else.
4) As said i'm aware it will not be a top damage dealer without heavily using burn but Kinetic need more damage. I don't think it needs more accourancy, even if i think it's not very good in that department, but i think it need to land more damage.
Someone says that is a bad feeling to miss, and i agree, but i think that if the class want to be something new it's a good idea to give a different way to deal damage.
It will be stronger against small enemies, a field sweeper maybe, and less againsts big ones. It's ok in my opinion, provided that the class can do something useful instead when it comes to go against "bigbadboss".
Somewhere i read a suggestion about auras and/or group buffs. I really like the idea, i totally see him manipulate wind to make other faster or empower theirs weapons with energy and so on. I think that this class can be a good multitool and be fun to play this way and not just "Gotta blast'em all".
5) I think it's already clear that it needs a better skills selection and more skill points, but i think it's worth to say it again.
6) I strongly suggest to change the names "infusions" and "wild talents". The first can create confusion with alchemist (it did at my table and even i had to admit that the guy in question is not very bright, it can happen to others) and the second is not so clear either. I think it will be more effective something simple like "Kinetic talents", maybe less evocative but surely more clear.

In the end what i think is that this class have a lot of potential and i will like to see it customizable enough to be good at what the player want to do. You like to be a glass cannon? Here an array of wild talent, feats and so on to land a good an versatile damage. You like more melee combat? Here yours. You like to be a support for the rest of the party? We have it.
You will never the best in any field but at least pretty good at what you choose, and when your "field of specialization" is somewhat useless, having some nice tricks anyway that let you not to be a waste of space in the party.

Sorry again for my english.


Brannart wrote:


Sorry again for my english.

You still speak better English than many Americans. I had less trouble reading your post than I have with native English speakers, so don't be afraid to speak up.

I agree with Infusions needing a name change, and Kinetic Talents could work fine for Wild Talents.
I've been trying to find a different term for Infusions, and it feels like the best answer is actually, in the words of King Bumi, "Nothing. I am going to do Nothing."

In other words, call them Forms and Substances, and just drop the extra word altogether. I feel this solves the conflict best, as Form stands alone as a solid word for something which describes the shape of a Blast. Substance stands alone as something you add to a blast to make it more substantial. The word Infusion ties them together, but realistically they aren't together, you can use one, the other, or both. It's quite clear, rules wise, that they're actually two very separate things, and there is no room for overlap between the two groups.

As such, I see no reason whatsoever to have a word that joins the two together in a way that they simply aren't. This solves them being named Infusions (a predefined Alchemist ability), keeps us from having to find something else to call them, and also saves some page space.


I hope that meeting occurs soon. I will be playing a hydrokineticist this weekend. I'm excited to play this class.


Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
I hope that meeting occurs soon. I will be playing a hydrokineticist this weekend. I'm excited to play this class.

Same here, I'm not sure what kind but I'm really hoping my DM approves the class. I have a feeling he will, I'm usually HIS DM so he tends to take my advice on whether a rule will cause a problem or not. Regardless, if this takes shape nicely I'll be building some characters up this weekend. I'm feeling Water/Earth/Air for my long term designs. Then again, if Monoelement is made more attractive, I could see me going straight Hydro.


I'm sorry, maybe i have missed that and in this long thread i didn't find it, but Kineticist can manipulate their elements, even in a minor way without using specific wild talents?

Looking at the class it didn't seems the case.


Yeah, that confused a lot of us too. There is ABSOLUTELY NO RAW THAT SAYS THAT. Anywhere. It was probably the only thing that really messed my head up about this class, because it makes absolutely no sense that if a Pyrokineticist wants to start a campfire, his options are to use a full strength Blast on the 5' square the wood is in, or to use a flint like everyone else. Go figure. *Shrugs*


I think that it will be good, some sort of cantrips level element manipultion. It will not empower the class but surely it will but more in line with its tematics and in the end, more fun.

I really hope that it will be more room for utilities and support wild talents. I will very happy to play a class that can be a decent blaster and have some buffs and heals.

At my table noone wants to play healer/support. Instead i like that role but i don't like divine classes very much.

Shadow Lodge

Rather than specific cantrips you could just easily alter the Element ability at level one to say that you can freely conjure small amounts of your element at will for various effect.

It could quickly explain that fire could create a small flame like the Spark cantrip, air could do something like Breeze, Water could create a gallon of water like Create Water or the Drench cantrip. Earth could what make an amount of unworked soil, replace simple materials like the mending spell? That last one is getting pretty arcane.


Shiroi wrote:


That's what I'm saying, you replace FtB entirely from the class in this archetype, and instead get Talents EVERY level instead of every other (if balance requires you to get 10 extra talents in place of FtB) or an Extra Talent every time you would otherwise have gotten an increase to FtB (if 6 is the number of Talents that would be equivalent to FtB), or some similar situation in which you get additional talents at certain levels in place of getting the bonus to-hit and damage of FtB. Then your "Stunts" can become talent ideas that most normal Kineticists would never need/want/have the room to take, but a Kineticist with your "Talented" Archetype would have ample room to take advantage of.

If you still really want to deny the regular Kineticist access to these "Stunts" you could instead make them Talents that this Archetype has access to, on a separate list that the normal Kineticists don't see, but I don't see a huge reason to make that distinction since most Kineticists are struggling to get their regular talents anyways,...

The thing is, when I was first coming up with the idea, the ideas were things that the existing talents could already questionably do. (Such as using Finesse to Steal, but in combat). It just got expanded further than intended I suppose. Also, it would require that all these "stunts" be available at the same level as their prerequisites. I understand wanting to stick to existing mechanics, but just not sure that's right for this. :/


Brannart wrote:

I think that it will be good, some sort of cantrips level element manipultion. It will not empower the class but surely it will but more in line with its tematics and in the end, more fun.

+1

Then our Light Touch (Aether) could be "free" as well, since that's the Cantrip level for our path. :D


mplindustries wrote:

@Sphynx

I have wondered some times in this thread if you were maybe playing a different game than me.

You know that's insulting. However, yes, I'm sure we all play the game differently than others.

Quote:

First, the damage should be high, but isn't, yet. Given that 1d6 is 3.5 average, kineticists deal 4.5+con at level 1, while an npc warrior with a greatsword and power attack does 10+1.5str. At level 3, kineticists are up to 10+con, but, yeah, still less. You'd think it gets better at 5th, but power attack goes up at 4th, so it's 14.5+con vs. 13+1.5str.

Now, empowered,yeah, our damage spikes up, but that means we finally beat an npc warrior, but only if we can empower and only if they don't have, say, cleave.

A fighter would have more feats and weapon training and a magic weapon in there (a barbarian would have rage, paladin smite, etc.), so, even empowered, our hits are not as strong and our accuracy is lower, too (which is ok, if we get enough damage to actually balance that).

That's all a fighter does though... that's all a Barbarian does. We (as Kineticists) aren't focused purely on combat, we have a whole slew of options as a utility class. I don't even consider taking blast infusions, and the few times I actually decide to blast something instead of out smart the NPC(GM), I did great damage. Losing the ability to hide behind Kinetic Cover lost some of my utility admittedly, but I'm still prone to using TK over Blasts in my games. Our group considers it a good game if we can overcome the obstacles without anyone ever knowing we were there (which means leaving no bodies behind). And nobody in our group has ever made a character with optimization in mind. We have our leader a Human Warrior of the Holy Light. A Human Qinggong Monk (focused on mobility). A Gnome Illusionist that only has Illusion spells. A Half-Elf Cleric with Exploration and Liberation. A Human Lion Shaman Pack Lord. And me, previously a Sylph Wizard of the Element Air, now a 1st level Aether Kineticist (still a Sylph).

Quote:

Second, none of those stunts look especially useful to me. CL + Casting stat is quickly rendered pointless as a CMB substitute because CMD scales too fast, and anyone serious about maneuvers needs magic items, feats, and size increases to have any hope of staying relevant. Plus, 90% of combat maneuvers are pointless anyway and you'd contribute more just hitting them.

Sounds like you're not playing either E6 or E8.

Quote:


If you want battlefield control, you need ways to inflict conditions--create zones of difficult terrain, inflict entangled, sickened, staggered, grappled, stunned, etc., zones of damage, etc.

The objective isn't battlefield control. It's theme, being able to actually do the things you'd imagine a telekinetic individual could do if not bound by mechanics... and making the mechanics fit that image.

Quote:


So, I am curious, what are your games about? What happens in a typical one that would make this archetype worthwhile?

Well, last game we infiltrated an Orc camp (silently) to get the battle plans from the command tent and sabotage the war machines. Game before that we assassinated their head Shaman to free the Duke's daughter, and had to battle a demon as well as the Shaman and his minions. (This is where I did massive damage to the demon in a previous post). Game before that we scoured the city to find the Orc's spies that were trying to collect intel and provided them with false information while our Gnome tricked them into telling us where the hidden camp was located.

Honestly, I can think of a dozen times that a telekinetic intervention would have been useful. Admittedly, I already miss my Gaseous Form spell which I used almost every game, but as a Wizard I'm not only use to doing zero damage in a game, but also in acting as a utility character. Even my Wizard, whose memorized spells were always limited to as many Invis spells as I can do, as many Gaseous Forms as I can do, and Fog spells (Obscuring Mist and Fog Cloud) plus 2 Elemental Body per day. Feats were Spell Mastery (never looked at a book), Eschew Materials, and Fast Study.

So I concur that optimization is not really my thing, I'm about theme. I like planning, getting a birds eye view of a place and plotting in advance what to do, bribing people for plans, spending time in archives looking for plans, etc... I know a lot of people just charge into battle, but that's not really our group's thing.

PS. Previously I quit responding to Kinetic Cover because Mark stepped in and said it wasn't to be used as written. But Kinetic Cover was awesome (if used as concealment) when you have a group that, of 6 members, 4 have Stealth skills exceeding 20 and often stacked with invisibility in particular for those of the group that don't have any Stealth ranks. Hiding anywhere, while waiting for cover to clear (as the players behind it move to different cover) so you can move to less obvious cover, was a useful tool. One thing our group is sorely going to miss is the collection of Invisibility spells memorized per day by my previous character


Hi all,

after some more test and study i think that the Kineticist will benefit from a flat bonus on hit points. Relaying a lot on hit points i think it's better a flat one than a bigger dice, because if you are unlucky your character will be pretty screwed.
Any thoughs?


Sphynx wrote:
You know that's insulting. However, yes, I'm sure we all play the game differently than others.

I honestly didn't mean it insultingly at all. Your take on this class is so radically different from everyone else's, though, and I'm not sure how else to put it.

Sphynx wrote:
That's all a fighter does though... that's all a Barbarian does.

Yes, Fighters are terrible. But Barbarians had more skill points than we did, and Rage Powers offered more utility than Kineticists really had access to before level 6 or so, if you chose them correctly.

Look at what can be done pre-6 utilitywise: Air gets feather fall, bull rush, and the ability to shoot farther. Earth can make walls and bullrush. Fire can move small amounts of fire around. Water can bullrush, heal, walk on ice, cast Grease, and make cover. Aether can heal, cover, bigger mage hand, and use Sleight of Hand and Disable Device with their mage hand.

That's...not really much utility at all. That's less than pretty much every non-fighter class gets access to.

And for the record, ANY class can pick up a Greatsword and Power Attack for just as much damage. Clerics, Inquisitors, Rangers, Paladins, Bards could do it with a Longspear...it's not just a Fighter/Barbarian thing. Two-handed weapons are just really powerful in Pathfinder.

Sphynx wrote:
We (as Kineticists) aren't focused purely on combat, we have a whole slew of options as a utility class.

I want that to be the case, but, haven't found it to be yet. I trust that Mark won't let us down and that we'll get some awesome utility, but in the playtest document, Fire has absolutely none, Air just gets to fly, Water and Earth at least can move around their elements and do useful stuff and get tremorsense (Though, only after taking crappy 1st tier talents), and Aether just gets to, very slowly, get traditional telekinesis.

Sphynx wrote:
Our group considers it a good game if we can overcome the obstacles without anyone ever knowing we were there (which means leaving no bodies behind).

And that's awesome. But you have to realize how atypical that is. I can't decide if I would find that totally awesome, or if I would say to the group, "Why the hell are we playing Pathfinder, a game geared 90% around combat, instead of one of the hundreds of other RPGs better suited for this kind of stuff.

Sphynx wrote:
And nobody in our group has ever made a character with optimization in mind. We have our leader a Human Warrior of the Holy Light. A Human Qinggong Monk (focused on mobility). A Gnome Illusionist that only has Illusion spells. A Half-Elf Cleric with Exploration and Liberation. A Human Lion Shaman Pack Lord. And me, previously a Sylph Wizard of the Element Air, now a 1st level Aether Kineticist (still a Sylph).

None of those sound especially unoptimized except the Monk. Illusions, especially, are powerful and awesome.

Sphynx wrote:
Sounds like you're not playing either E6 or E8.

Oh, how I wish I could--my current group won't go for it or it's all would play. But considering Kineticist doesn't even get access to their real utility powers until 6th and the extra wild talent feat available doesn't let you take more than 1st level powers, I sure as hell wouldn't be a Kineticist in E6.

And while E6 and E8 make combat maneuvers less of a losing proposition since CMD never goes out of control bonkers too high, they're still mostly useless. At level 5, I would be stunned to find that knocking someone prone could contribute as much to a fight as smashing them with an empowered 3d6+Con blast.

Sphynx wrote:
The objective isn't battlefield control. It's theme, being able to actually do the things you'd imagine a telekinetic individual could do if not bound by mechanics... and making the mechanics fit that image.

Sure, but I would want those mechanics to actually help me in the game.

Sphynx wrote:
Admittedly, I already miss my Gaseous Form spell which I used almost every game, but as a Wizard I'm not only use to doing zero damage in a game, but also in acting as a utility character.

So, you went from one of the classes with the best utility in the game to one with practically none, and you're hoping to shave off the corners of the square peg and fit it in the round hole? ;)

Honestly, as I said, I hope we get a lot more utility, I just can't imagine looking at the class now and saying, "Oh, yeah, Kineticist is a utility class."

Sphynx wrote:
So I concur that optimization is not really my thing, I'm about theme. I like planning, getting a birds eye view of a place and plotting in advance what to do, bribing people for plans, spending time in archives looking for plans, etc... I know a lot of people just charge into battle, but that's not really our group's thing.

That's possibly a little insulting, too, you know. I prefer those things, too. That's why I optimize. You know, so my plans work. :)


Sphynx wrote:


The thing is, when I was first coming up with the idea, the ideas were things that the existing talents could already questionably do. (Such as using Finesse to Steal, but in combat). It just got expanded further than intended I suppose. Also, it would require that all these "stunts" be available at the same level as their prerequisites. I understand wanting to stick to existing mechanics, but just not sure that's right for this. :/

That helps me to narrow our focus. Actually, you're not looking for an archetype at all. You happen to be looking for... Exactly what this class should have had all along. More utility. More flexible interpretations of what can be done with powers. A rider at the top of the class that says "GM may allow any reasonable use of the ability to manipulate objects or elements, these abilities should be no stronger than one spell level lower than the highest spell level the player could have access to if they were a Cleric or sorcerer, plus one additional spell level worth of effect for each burn spent. These abilities do not need to mimic the effects of an existing spell, but should be considered with this power limitation in mind. When using this general manipulation, any invoked DC, Dispelling effect, or similar caster level check considers the effect to be a spell with a level equal to..."

And yes, I know this wording would sadly never fly. But bluntly speaking I have a loose interpretation of the magic rules. I as a DM tend to readjust spell levels depending badly my players can abuse them (or not), create magic items that don't normally exist, and allow people to create new spells. No aoe cold effect in your spell level? Use this one, deal cold. It happened. Why? Because magic. Don't think you can use it to do acid later, you learned the cold version. Learn acid next level. Or spend time in a library.

Magic is supposed to be flexible and powerful. Most systems with listed spells take that flexibility out to keep it from being too powerful, which is good, but I feel like there's a lot to be said for the ability to manipulate your (limited, small) zone of influence any blasted way you need to to get the job done for this class. I move water with my mind. I should be able to make a full round sunder check by pressuring water into a crack in the stone door and freezing it. Why? Because I move water with my mind. And water does that.


Yeah, when I ran my hydrokineticist through your test gauntlet, putting water in the lock and freezing it was how I bypassed your door obstacles. Water does that, so I did that. I can't wait to really get Water Manipulator in the game I am actually playing...


Even if it was just a small bit that said "the DM may provide a circumstance or competence bonus on your skill or ability check as appropriate if you find a way to use your element to complete a task"

So you'd use your normal pick lock action, or sunder check, or Str check, but the DM could mess with it a bit since you're using that ice to damage the lock. For fire you could make a survival check to light the campfire with a +lol bonus because that's what fire does.
For a swim check with a hydro, a sail check with a Hydro or aero, or a UMD with your element in it, a +1-5 to make things more you.

This would help, if there was no other way to make the utility work mechanically.


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Do you want to have a meeting?
And talk about kineticists?
I think your final thoughts are overdue
I've started posting to
A closed down thread upon the boards!

We should have a bunch more damage
But now we don't.
I wish you would tell me why!

Do you want to have a meeting?
It doesn't have to be a meeting.

Ok, bye...

;)


Speaking of meetings, has the meeting we're all waiting for finally happened yet?


Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Speaking of meetings, has the meeting we're all waiting for finally happened yet?

Mark put himself on a timer and said that we'd have the post by at latest the business day after the meeting. So if it happened today, we'll get the post today or tomorrow. If it happens tomorrow, we'll get the post tomorrow or Thursday...

If it happens December 28th of 2019 we'll get it December 28th of 2019 or December 29th of 2019...

If it happens Doomsday we'll get it on Doomsday or the day after Doomsday...

*fades out, still mumbling about dates we might see the new info*

Well, while that thought tangent goes it's separate way, who's up for a round of what Aero could get that isn't Flying and still helps the party in a utility sense?

I feel like a decrease in travel time and almost always having decent weather conditions would be their biggest things, little passive buffs that most lazy DM's already make pointless but could be really, really useful with some rules intensive "March through the blizzard and die!" DM's.

Sailing buffs for the wind being in your sails (Robilliard, I hat tip to you), and possibly improving the chances of making random encounters start with the surprise round in your favor (the wind tells me where our enemies are... Also they're upwind so they can't smell the Half-Orc in raw lionskin, that helps.) might round out the utility a bit.

Unlike fire burning things, water having healing, ice constructs, and never going thirsty utility, Earth having all the "I'm making a castle to sleep in tonight! Druid, you're out. I dislike your jokes.", and TK setting up a camp in minutes flat while tripping traps and laughing at the guard who leaves keys on a ring next to the door, Aero really has to dig deep for that utility advantage it should have as a backline fighter.

Granted, the in combat utility of a 960 foot blast with flying and 50% missile miss chance is pretty awesome, so maybe they really should be the most combat oriented Kineticists. It just feels very awkward that the most technically passive of the elements is the one that deals almost exclusively with combat.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Some utility I see air having would be creating air bubbles to allow safe underwater travel and protection from noxious gases, the ability to communicate over distances, emulating message and whispering wind, or possibly even an evolution of windsight that allows you to view/sense things from a distance so long as there's open air between you and your target. On the electricity side of things, the ability to create magnetic waves could potentially allow you to pull off some Magneto-like stunts, and there's also the possibility of being able to jolt people back to consciousness, or be able to sense disturbances in the electromagnetic field, giving you something like lifesense.


If the Aerokineticisit can't paint with all the colors of the wind, then Mark has failed :P

/joke

Utility wise, I'd like to see the Aerokineticist be able to manipulate air currents in lots of ways. For example, scattering the smoke the comes out of a fire, so people can't see it from far off. Or cloaking their scent from that of animals or monsters, using the winds to increase the movement speed of the whole party (similar to longstrider, but he'd be able to increase the effect to that of haste, by shortening the duration).

His ability to manipulate the air should allow for interesting mechanics with sound, like using ghost sound ventriloquism, message, or whispering winds. I'd like to see the aerokineticist be able to cloak himself in the winds and become invisible, or if invisibility is out of the question, mimic the effects of the spell chameleon stride and it's greater version. There is, of course, the whole gust of wind and river of wind and similar spells she should be able to mimic, if only by default, which she currently can't, as well.

Designer

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Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

Unraveling Infusion:

Unraveling Infusion
Element fire; Type substance infusion; Level 6; Burn 3
Prerequisites kineticist level 10th
Associated Blasts blue flame, fire
Saving Throw none
Your kinetic blast burns so hot that it melts away your foe’s magical effects. Whenever an infused blast hits a foe and penetrates spell resistance, you may roll an opposed caster level check as if using a targeted dispel magic, before determining if the foe takes damage from the blast. You may choose to reduce the blast’s damage by half to increase your bonus on the caster level check by 2. If you do not choose a specific spell effect to attempt to dispel, you automatically attempt to dispel spells that would protect the target from fire damage before all other spells.


Mark Seifter wrote:

Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

Now that is awesome--makes me wish I had any interest in pyrokinesis.


Any reason why it doesn't work with blasts like magma? I mean, magma and plasma is generally rather hot.

Regardless, it is rather cool to be able to dispel magic effects and protection with fire.

Designer

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mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

Fortunately, there's still plenty to be done even if the meeting keeps getting delayed. Oh my, what's this slipping out of hands and into a spoiler block? Is it a potential new infusion write-up? My hands must be getting shaky with all this waiting. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

Now that is awesome--makes me wish I had any interest in pyrokinesis.

My goal is to make you have interest in kineticists of all types!

Oh my, how tempting it might be with this potential additional line on burning infusion! "All fire kinetic blasts gain a +2 to DCs and on attack rolls and caster level checks to overcome SR against a creature that is on fire from this infusion."


I still want to play my Pyrokineticist, and I now want to play Tamotsu that much more. I'm going to burn away literally everything.

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