General Discussion: Kineticist


Rules Discussion

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It's Thursdayish, are you done yet? :P

Scarab Sages

Excaliburproxy wrote:
And I don't think PFS rulings should be taken into account for new game materials.

So you are advocating ignoring a large swath of the Pathfinder community simply because they don't match your playstyle?

PFS should always be taken into account. Home games do have the freedom change rules they disagree with, unlike the players in the living campaign.


So will these "updates" be posted here or will it be part of a blog post?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Artanthos wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
And I don't think PFS rulings should be taken into account for new game materials.

So you are advocating ignoring a large swath of the Pathfinder community simply because they don't match your playstyle?

PFS should always be taken into account. Home games do have the freedom change rules they disagree with, unlike the players in the living campaign.

A topic for another thread most likely, but I think "living campaigns" have done a lot of damage to the hobby. I understand that it's great to have a network of gamers to make it easier to find a game, but the required portability and need for consistent rulings from table to table destroy a lot of what I think makes rpgs great. Surely, you could have a society of gamers without a persistent world or ironclad rules in a medium that was never intended to contain such things, no?

This coming update we're all waiting for is not going to be PFS legal, for example, but in the game I am in, a post from the designer is frankly MORE compelling than the actual game text.

Scarab Sages

mplindustries wrote:
Surely, you could have a society of gamers without a persistent world or ironclad rules in a medium that was never intended to contain such things, no?

No, you cannot. Even within PFS table variation and playstyle differences already causes many issues. This is, however, a topic for a different thread.


Artanthos wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Surely, you could have a society of gamers without a persistent world or ironclad rules in a medium that was never intended to contain such things, no?
No, you cannot. Even within PFS table variation and playstyle differences already causes many issues. This is, however, a topic for a different thread.

Why not?

You can have something like PFS without making everything ironclad, you just have to let go of the idea of it being anything more than a system where you can be assured of having a game to play every week.

If I join a poker club I'm not going to fret if one table's playing Five Card Stud and the other's playing Texas Hold 'Em, you know?


Not relevant to the topic. Move it on.


Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
Not relevant to the topic. Move it on.

There's not really anything to talk about here. The playtest is over. The only reason this thread isn't locked is so Mark can post the final update we're all waiting for.


People are still posting things about the class which is what this thread is about. Not PFS.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
Aaron Scott 139 wrote:
People are still posting things about the class which is what this thread is about. Not PFS.

As people have pointed out, PFS is one of many considerations for the design of the class. It's pretty tangential, but still related.

Not much else to discuss until we see potential updates.

Shadow Lodge

So since we are still talking about this has anyone brought up making a spark of life option for telekinetics that gives animated objects instead of elementals? It would be awesome for telekinetics that lets them animate chairs, tables, and carriages against enemies.


Thematically, i think that would be a terrible idea, doc. One of the reasons I love this class as is, is because it is the first time someone has built a telekinetic class that felt like telekinesis and not magic.


I like the idea of the animate objects ability, at least for Aether anyway. I would also like more healing and curative related abilities as well. Maybe an archetype that focuses on healing abilities.


Dragon78 wrote:
I like the idea of the animate objects ability, at least for Aether anyway. I would also like more healing and curative related abilities as well. Maybe an archetype that focuses on healing abilities.

It was hinted that one would exist and that it would get Paladin Mercies as riders on Kinetic Healing.


Artanthos wrote:
Excaliburproxy wrote:
And I don't think PFS rulings should be taken into account for new game materials.

So you are advocating ignoring a large swath of the Pathfinder community simply because they don't match your playstyle?

PFS should always be taken into account. Home games do have the freedom change rules they disagree with, unlike the players in the living campaign.

I am strongly advocating for lobbying PFS to change its bad rulings rather than build a system around 3rd party rules.


@doc the grey
I can see the ability to use animated weapons to get their full attacks and all the magic abilities of a weapon at range as a tele-blast option. I can also see using a tele-anything composite blast by surrounding the thrown object with elemental matter, like a flaming desk flipping across the room, or freezing a tapestry so it becomes heavier and more solid and throwing it. I don't feel like creating a flaming chair as an autonimous creature would benefit the class in any way, if that's what you mean. For one, if you want your character to do that it's perfectly well within your power already. Use spark of life, elementals may have "normal/preferred" forms, but they can be molded any which way you choose. If you want to have a living suit of ice armor follow you around, Spark of Life works well for that already. Floating chandelier of wind? Weird, but not rulebending. Go for it.

Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.


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Shiroi wrote:

@doc the grey

I can see the ability to use animated weapons to get their full attacks and all the magic abilities of a weapon at range as a tele-blast option. I can also see using a tele-anything composite blast by surrounding the thrown object with elemental matter, like a flaming desk flipping across the room, or freezing a tapestry so it becomes heavier and more solid and throwing it. I don't feel like creating a flaming chair as an autonimous creature would benefit the class in any way, if that's what you mean. For one, if you want your character to do that it's perfectly well within your power already. Use spark of life, elementals may have "normal/preferred" forms, but they can be molded any which way you choose. If you want to have a living suit of ice armor follow you around, Spark of Life works well for that already. Floating chandelier of wind? Weird, but not rulebending. Go for it.

Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.

I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.


Milo v3 wrote:
Shiroi wrote:


Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.
I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.

Yep. Noticed that and marked it at the bottom that I'd eventually caught on. Lol.

Designer

mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
Also, it's next week already. I'm dying to see what all gets nerfed/buffed. Come on Mark, let's hear the good news!

Quote the Seifter, 'Wednesdayish'.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Expect the post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish, with all sorts of teasers of goodies to come.

Cheers!
Mark

Given the requisite meeting has been pushed a bit, I would say Thursdayish or Fridayish may be more likely (which is probably still Wednesdayish, depending on the definition of Wednesdayish, but just to prevent people from getting antsy on Wednesday proper).
The first session of my game is Thursday night :(

Quite sorry about that. Unfortunately, the meeting schedule is outside of my control. I could go ahead and post before the meeting, but then that would go against the reason you guys told me to wait in the first place (the fact that the meeting will allow me to be more certain of which of my changes will go in).


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Take your time Mark, just make sure you post an update when the meeting is finished. :)


No pressure. *twitches*

I'd be curious to see an archetype focused heavily on forms, an AoE master that deals in sweeping gouts of fire, giant earthquake zones, or massive waves of ice and water. The current design allows for one or two fairly weak and small Aoe's with half your damage and 1/4 on a save, I'm thinking more like a few d6 short of a fireball, and pick any x adjacent squares, so you can make it your own design. *slaps a Gargantuan sized flaming handprint into the crowd of goblins*

This class feels like it could do crowd control very well, thematically, but the mechanics don't quite seem there for the normal build. Which is good, because I don't want them there for every Kineticist. But the option to specialize that way would be nice.


Mark Seifter wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
Also, it's next week already. I'm dying to see what all gets nerfed/buffed. Come on Mark, let's hear the good news!

Quote the Seifter, 'Wednesdayish'.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Expect the post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish, with all sorts of teasers of goodies to come.

Cheers!
Mark

Given the requisite meeting has been pushed a bit, I would say Thursdayish or Fridayish may be more likely (which is probably still Wednesdayish, depending on the definition of Wednesdayish, but just to prevent people from getting antsy on Wednesday proper).
The first session of my game is Thursday night :(
Quite sorry about that. Unfortunately, the meeting schedule is outside of my control. I could go ahead and post before the meeting, but then that would go against the reason you guys told me to wait in the first place (the fact that the meeting will allow me to be more certain of which of my changes will go in).

I was just being silly. I totally understand. I doubt level 3 will look especially different beyond more skills anyway. ;)

Designer

mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
mplindustries wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:
Tels wrote:
Shiroi wrote:
Also, it's next week already. I'm dying to see what all gets nerfed/buffed. Come on Mark, let's hear the good news!

Quote the Seifter, 'Wednesdayish'.

Mark Seifter wrote:

Expect the post mortem in this thread next week, maybe Wednesdayish, with all sorts of teasers of goodies to come.

Cheers!
Mark

Given the requisite meeting has been pushed a bit, I would say Thursdayish or Fridayish may be more likely (which is probably still Wednesdayish, depending on the definition of Wednesdayish, but just to prevent people from getting antsy on Wednesday proper).
The first session of my game is Thursday night :(
Quite sorry about that. Unfortunately, the meeting schedule is outside of my control. I could go ahead and post before the meeting, but then that would go against the reason you guys told me to wait in the first place (the fact that the meeting will allow me to be more certain of which of my changes will go in).
I was just being silly. I totally understand. I doubt level 3 will look especially different beyond more skills anyway. ;)

Just go ahead and give yourself 4 skill points. Of all the things we'll be discussing, given the survey question I sneaked in there and you guys' response to it, I'm pretty sure I have traction on that one.


Shiroi wrote:

No pressure. *twitches*

I'd be curious to see an archetype focused heavily on forms, an AoE master that deals in sweeping gouts of fire, giant earthquake zones, or massive waves of ice and water. The current design allows for one or two fairly weak and small Aoe's with half your damage and 1/4 on a save, I'm thinking more like a few d6 short of a fireball, and pick any x adjacent squares, so you can make it your own design. *slaps a Gargantuan sized flaming handprint into the crowd of goblins*

This class feels like it could do crowd control very well, thematically, but the mechanics don't quite seem there for the normal build. Which is good, because I don't want them there for every Kineticist. But the option to specialize that way would be nice.

I'm hoping to see this too, but I hope that AoE options for vanilla Kineticists get a bit of a boost too? As a 9th level Aerokineticist, I found my blast was seriously lacking any real punch due to the low DC, and the halved and then halved again damage when the enemies made their save.

I'm not really expecting to punch holes in mountains or wipe out armies in a single shot, but 14 damage to two enemies, as opposed to the 56 damage I rolled originally just didn't seem at all that impressive. =/

Edit: Forgot to say, I've always assumed a "It'll be done when it's done" attitude with things like this. That said, squeee! 18 more skillpoints! You're the best Mark! =D


Falkenhayn wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

No pressure. *twitches*

I'd be curious to see an archetype focused heavily on forms, an AoE master that deals in sweeping gouts of fire, giant earthquake zones, or massive waves of ice and water. The current design allows for one or two fairly weak and small Aoe's with half your damage and 1/4 on a save, I'm thinking more like a few d6 short of a fireball, and pick any x adjacent squares, so you can make it your own design. *slaps a Gargantuan sized flaming handprint into the crowd of goblins*

This class feels like it could do crowd control very well, thematically, but the mechanics don't quite seem there for the normal build. Which is good, because I don't want them there for every Kineticist. But the option to specialize that way would be nice.

I'm hoping to see this too, but I hope that AoE options for vanilla Kineticists get a bit of a boost too? As a 9th level Aerokineticist, I found my blast was seriously lacking any real punch due to the low DC, and the halved and then halved again damage when the enemies made their save.

I'm not really expecting to punch holes in mountains or wipe out armies in a single shot, but 14 damage to two enemies, as opposed to the 56 damage I rolled originally just didn't seem at all that impressive. =/

Edit: Forgot to say, I've always assumed a "It'll be done when it's done" attitude with things like this. That said, squeee! 18 more skillpoints! You're the best Mark! =D

(emphasis mine) why shouldnt you? wizards can do it.


It's Fridayish, and I don't see a post mortem.

I am disappoint!

Just kidding.


Shiroi wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Shiroi wrote:


Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.
I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.
Yep. Noticed that and marked it at the bottom that I'd eventually caught on. Lol.

Thing is, it's not telekinetic. Unless that object has joints that bend already, using telekinesis to create animated objects would just break the objects Giving the legs of a chair "knees" is just going to result in shattered chair legs, for example.

And that's not including the sentience required in the object for it do do more than being a puppet on telekinetic strings...

Falkenhayn wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

No pressure. *twitches*

I'd be curious to see an archetype focused heavily on forms, an AoE master that deals in sweeping gouts of fire, giant earthquake zones, or massive waves of ice and water. The current design allows for one or two fairly weak and small Aoe's with half your damage and 1/4 on a save, I'm thinking more like a few d6 short of a fireball, and pick any x adjacent squares, so you can make it your own design. *slaps a Gargantuan sized flaming handprint into the crowd of goblins*

This class feels like it could do crowd control very well, thematically, but the mechanics don't quite seem there for the normal build. Which is good, because I don't want them there for every Kineticist. But the option to specialize that way would be nice.

I'm hoping to see this too, but I hope that AoE options for vanilla Kineticists get a bit of a boost too? As a 9th level Aerokineticist, I found my blast was seriously lacking any real punch due to the low DC, and the halved and then halved again damage when the enemies made their save.

I'm not really expecting to punch holes in mountains or wipe out armies in a single shot, but 14 damage to two enemies, as opposed to the 56 damage I rolled originally just didn't seem at all that impressive. =/

Trouble is that unless they start merging Talents, we'll never be able to fully use everything. Even taking a feat every other level to add a Talent, I find myself sorely lacking in what all I feel I, as a Telekineticist, should be able to do. :(

Admittedly, as a mid-tier BAB Class, guess there's only so much to do... I think what we really need is an Alternate Class that does low-tier BAB, has twice as many talents, and effects (BG Control) instead of damage...?


If it doesn't make it into the book, I'm totally going to be writing up a Monk/Kineticist archetype to mimic the abilities of Yusuke Urameshi from Yu Yu Hakusho. Yusuke is a Spirit Detective the tracks and hunts down rogue spirits from the spirit world and fights demons. He's a skilled martial artist (hence, Monk), that possesses an abundance of 'spirit energy' (Ki/kinetic power) that he can fire out of his fingers like a gun (Kinetic Blast). As he grows more powerful, he can alter and shape these 'spirit guns' to do different things (wild talents), like Spirit Shotgun, or Spirit Wave.

I envision it as something along the lines of the Monk gaining the ability to fire Kinetic Blasts that deal force damage, but costs Ki Points to fire (1 ki per shot). As he levels up, he learns how to shape his blast differently (shotgun/wave) but it costs more Ki to use these additional types. I would imagine that he also gains the ability to sense spirits and, eventually, outsides and extraplanar creatures, similar to a constant Detect Evil.


Tels wrote:
I would imagine that he also gains the ability to sense spirits and, eventually, outsides and extraplanar creatures, similar to a constant Detect Evil.

Oh you should check out the Druid Menhir Savant archetype from Ultimate Magic. They get spirit sense which would be perfect for that:

PRD wrote:

Spirit Sense (Sp): At 1st level, a menhir savant can detect the presence of undead; fey; outsiders; and astral, ethereal, or incorporeal creatures. This ability functions like detect undead, and the druid detects all of these creatures rather than trying to detect one kind. This ability replaces nature sense and wild empathy.


Sphynx wrote:


Thing is, it's not telekinetic. Unless that object has joints that bend already, using telekinesis to create animated objects would just break the objects Giving the legs of a chair "knees" is just going to result in shattered chair legs, for example.

And that's not including the sentience required...

I can see it as more of selecting an object that moves as it normally would to do things it normally would. Animate a chair, and it can fly around knocking into things, but is treated as the object it normally would be rather than a blast, uses your con as the damage mod, and gets your iteratives. Weapons is the ideal choice here, but suits of armor could be cool. Most other object are situationally useful for it. Spend a burn just like Spark of Life and you can relegate the control to the back of your mind and not have to spend standards to move it. So you can have a suit of armor or a floating weapon wandering around provoking and flanking and such, which you blast away.

You wouldn't give a chair knees, but you could make a silver throne deal bludgeoning silver damage as it flies around slamming into things.

It fits very well with the occult theme if you make the Telekineticist into an Ectokineticist like I've been hoping for. I doubt they will, but I'm crossing fingers for an archetype at least.


Throwing things around is fine, that's how it should be. Just not "animating" (Spark of Life). Ie: We're on the same page. ;)


Shiroi wrote:


I can see it as more of selecting an object that moves as it normally would to do things it normally would. Animate a chair, and it can fly around knocking into things, but is treated as the object it normally would be rather than a blast, uses your con as the damage mod, and gets your iteratives. Weapons is the ideal choice here, but suits of armor could be cool. Most other object are situationally useful for it. Spend a burn just like Spark of Life and you can relegate the control to the back of your mind and not have to spend standards to move it. So you can have a suit of armor or a floating weapon wandering around provoking and flanking and such, which you blast away.

You wouldn't give a chair knees, but you could make a silver throne deal bludgeoning silver damage as it flies around slamming into things.

It fits very well with the occult theme if you make the Telekineticist into an Ectokineticist like I've been hoping for. I doubt they will, but I'm crossing fingers for an archetype at least.

You lost me where I bolded. That sounds like I can finally make Alphonse Elric.


Yeah, I can't really see the Kineticist getting a SoL equivalent that would give you, for instance, Beauty and the Beast style "living objects". That's more cartoony and more magic than I'd like. But if someone wants to fluff it that way, go for it. As long as the rules are more or less solid for things the object could feasibly do, and if they just stick to mindlessly attacking I feel there's no reason it shouldn't be fine, then there's no reason not to let doc the grey have his fun. Just as long as it makes sense rules wise for everyone else when their chair flies across the room instead of charging like his.

Now if I could just get this siege engine started on it's own... *Grins evilly*

By the way, anyone else interested in a caster hybrid for this class?
I see a lot of potential for a Sorc hybrid that gets to pick any (burn) spell effects of at least 1 spell level lower than them (or maybe spends x burn where x is 0, 1, 2, or 3 depending on if it's most recent spell level or further back), selecting their chosen element where possible, as unlimited SLA's. So if I select Scorching Ray and Fire Shield, I pay a certain amount of burn to keep them basically forever. Since the spell has to be lower than your current spell level, or costs a lot of burn if it's your highest, you'd be using lower level spells a lot for free. You still have a regular spell list for utility, but a lot of your lower level combat spells would be SLA and consistent damage. Once in a while you spike your big spells as normal from your regular spell list in there. Add in using burn to fuel spells and make them stronger, or to change the element of a spell you know to the one you chose at first level, and you have a few extra ways to use burn. Blast wouldn't be needed, because your "standard attack" is now a spell of a level or so lower than current. Spells of 3-4 levels lower than your max become auto free, so things like starting a campfire or breathing underwater eventually become natural to you as you learn better control of your element.


Kaelan Ashenveil wrote:
Shiroi wrote:


I can see it as more of selecting an object that moves as it normally would to do things it normally would. Animate a chair, and it can fly around knocking into things, but is treated as the object it normally would be rather than a blast, uses your con as the damage mod, and gets your iteratives. Weapons is the ideal choice here, but suits of armor could be cool. Most other object are situationally useful for it. Spend a burn just like Spark of Life and you can relegate the control to the back of your mind and not have to spend standards to move it. So you can have a suit of armor or a floating weapon wandering around provoking and flanking and such, which you blast away.

You wouldn't give a chair knees, but you could make a silver throne deal bludgeoning silver damage as it flies around slamming into things.

It fits very well with the occult theme if you make the Telekineticist into an Ectokineticist like I've been hoping for. I doubt they will, but I'm crossing fingers for an archetype at least.

You lost me where I bolded. That sounds like I can finally make Alphonse Elric.

Weapons would be able to make normal attacks as per Dancing special ability. Armor would be able to make slam attacks, maybe make attacks of opportunity, guard doorways, flip switches (which you could do with your tele anyways, but he can then guard the switch), set off traps as if he was a regular party member... Basically be a single zombie summon spell.

Of course, in keeping with the occult theme again, you could have multiple ghosts housed in an item, so if you can control up to x ghosts at any given level (I'm thinking up to 10 ghosts by lvl 20) you can use them as Enhancement Bonuses to the "living" item, (I should say "live in" item... badumpsh) or to add other effects. 1 ghost animates it under your control, 2 makes it autonomous, and more start adding bonuses like 1D4 force, 1D6 cold, +1 EB, or similar. Or have up to 5 unaugmented possessed items at once as you divide them into pairs and send them out.


Shiroi wrote:


Weapons would be able to make normal attacks as per Dancing special ability. Armor would be able to make slam attacks, maybe make attacks of opportunity, guard doorways, flip switches (which you could do with your tele anyways, but he can then guard the switch), set off traps as if he was a regular party member... Basically be a single zombie summon spell.

Of course, in keeping with the occult theme again, you could have multiple ghosts housed in an item, so if you can control up to x ghosts at any given level (I'm thinking up to 10 ghosts by lvl 20) you can use them as Enhancement Bonuses to the "living" item, (I should say "live in" item... badumpsh) or to add other effects. 1 ghost animates it under your control, 2 makes it autonomous, and more start adding bonuses like 1D4 force, 1D6 cold, +1 EB, or similar. Or have up to 5 unaugmented possessed...

Too much, too magical... sorry, to do that, you'd have to imbue the item with some level of sentience, and that's not telekinetic. If it's more than you could do with puppet strings, it's too much I think. Rather than animated objects, I'd favor a more telekinetic theme... like "Repulsion" which would basically bull rush anything not fastened down; away from you. Or like the old school anti-gravity spell... :P


Is it Wednesday-ish yet? =p


Sphynx wrote:
Shiroi wrote:


Weapons would be able to make normal attacks as per Dancing special ability. Armor would be able to make slam attacks, maybe make attacks of opportunity, guard doorways, flip switches (which you could do with your tele anyways, but he can then guard the switch), set off traps as if he was a regular party member... Basically be a single zombie summon spell.

Of course, in keeping with the occult theme again, you could have multiple ghosts housed in an item, so if you can control up to x ghosts at any given level (I'm thinking up to 10 ghosts by lvl 20) you can use them as Enhancement Bonuses to the "living" item, (I should say "live in" item... badumpsh) or to add other effects. 1 ghost animates it under your control, 2 makes it autonomous, and more start adding bonuses like 1D4 force, 1D6 cold, +1 EB, or similar. Or have up to 5 unaugmented possessed...

Too much, too magical... sorry, to do that, you'd have to imbue the item with some level of sentience, and that's not telekinetic. If it's more than you could do with puppet strings, it's too much I think. Rather than animated objects, I'd favor a more telekinetic theme... like "Repulsion" which would basically bull rush anything not fastened down; away from you. Or like the old school anti-gravity spell... :P

I'm referring to an archetype or variant that uses Ectokineticist instead of Telekineticist. There's a lot of overlap in how they could function, but I feel like an Ectokineticist would be a good way to bring occult flavor into the only class in the book that has none whatsoever right now. It involves a touch attack that deals Bludgeoning, instead of dealing force which seems to be a problem with TK getting a touch attack, the Devs don't want to give us force effects. I get that, but if you make it subject to DR as Bludgeoning it's not so bad. The idea there is that an ball of Ectoplasm would pass harmlessly through armor or exoskeletons, and impact the flesh directly. For that theme, using ghost possessions to manifest pseudoliving objects isn't a terrible clash. Basic Tele ability? No. Possible way to use the class? I hope so.

Be nice to see Antigravity, yes. And I feel like you could use that repulsion bull rush in reverse too, as an attraction. Yank up to 1/4 your level worth of opponents towards you, deal a little falling damage, get them in line with the rest of your team... Or push them away and off bridges and such... There's a lot that can be done with TK that isn't right now. Frankly, I'm waiting to hear if Foe Throw can be used to chuck someone off a bridge, say I name the second target as a specific square some 10 feet over the railing. I see no reason it shouldn't, they do get a save. Perhaps if you don't target a second opponent it doesn't do damage? Meh. Still a fun option.

Designer

Rynjin wrote:
Is it Wednesday-ish yet? =p

Trust me, I'm as eager as you guys to know for sure which changes I get to keep and then give you guys some idea of what's to come, but this meeting keeps being postponed. I can't even guarantee it will happen today. I certainly hope that it will happen by early next week, but no more -"ish"es from me. Instead I'll just say this:

"Whenever the meeting does happen, I'll guarantee that I'll have a post out by the next business day at the latest, barring only my absence from work that day or an unexpected emergency."


Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Is it Wednesday-ish yet? =p

Trust me, I'm as eager as you guys to know for sure which changes I get to keep and then give you guys some idea of what's to come, but this meeting keeps being postponed. I can't even guarantee it will happen today. I certainly hope that it will happen by early next week, but no more -"ish"es from me. Instead I'll just say this:

"Whenever the meeting does happen, I'll guarantee that I'll have a post out by the next business day at the latest, barring only my absence from work that day or an unexpected emergency."

No worries, as you can see we're still adding to your to-do list here anyways. :)

Shadow Lodge

Milo v3 wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

@doc the grey

I can see the ability to use animated weapons to get their full attacks and all the magic abilities of a weapon at range as a tele-blast option. I can also see using a tele-anything composite blast by surrounding the thrown object with elemental matter, like a flaming desk flipping across the room, or freezing a tapestry so it becomes heavier and more solid and throwing it. I don't feel like creating a flaming chair as an autonimous creature would benefit the class in any way, if that's what you mean. For one, if you want your character to do that it's perfectly well within your power already. Use spark of life, elementals may have "normal/preferred" forms, but they can be molded any which way you choose. If you want to have a living suit of ice armor follow you around, Spark of Life works well for that already. Floating chandelier of wind? Weird, but not rulebending. Go for it.

Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.

I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.

This is pretty close to what I was envisioning. Like instead of them imbuing their element with a spark of their being a telekinetic is wrapping telekinetic force around an object and directing it to attack like a puppet. My telekinetic imbues his will upon the empty chair next to him and has it assault his captors, swinging and smashing at them with its wooden legs and arms with reckless abandon or filling a standing suite of armor with his drawn aether and sending it charging at bad guys.

I mean in my mind spark of life already basically lets a user make a fighting doll out of whatever element they are attuned to. The walking elemental ball is mindless and can only act if the kineticist spends a move action directing it to act. If that's the case then it makes a lot of sense for my telekinetic to be able to wrap my aethiric will about an object and cause it to shamble after someone like an animated creature. I mean if a geomancer can make a hunk of wall grow arms and amble after a dude why not let me use a suit of armor like a hollow action figure I move with my telekinetics?


doc the grey wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

@doc the grey

I can see the ability to use animated weapons to get their full attacks and all the magic abilities of a weapon at range as a tele-blast option. I can also see using a tele-anything composite blast by surrounding the thrown object with elemental matter, like a flaming desk flipping across the room, or freezing a tapestry so it becomes heavier and more solid and throwing it. I don't feel like creating a flaming chair as an autonimous creature would benefit the class in any way, if that's what you mean. For one, if you want your character to do that it's perfectly well within your power already. Use spark of life, elementals may have "normal/preferred" forms, but they can be molded any which way you choose. If you want to have a living suit of ice armor follow you around, Spark of Life works well for that already. Floating chandelier of wind? Weird, but not rulebending. Go for it.

Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.

I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.

This is pretty close to what I was envisioning. Like instead of them imbuing their element with a spark of their being a telekinetic is wrapping telekinetic force around an object and directing it to attack like a puppet. My telekinetic imbues his will upon the empty chair next to him and has it assault his captors, swinging and smashing at them with its wooden legs and arms with reckless abandon or filling a standing suite of armor with his drawn aether and sending it charging at bad guys.

I mean in my mind spark of life already basically lets a user make a fighting doll out of whatever element they are attuned to. The walking elemental ball is...

I feel like his opposition to the idea is giving the bed Beauty and the Beast style "Life" qualities. The kineticist shouldn't be able to turn a pot of tea into Mrs. Potts, or a clock into Cogsworth.


Mark Seifter wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Is it Wednesday-ish yet? =p

Trust me, I'm as eager as you guys to know for sure which changes I get to keep and then give you guys some idea of what's to come, but this meeting keeps being postponed. I can't even guarantee it will happen today. I certainly hope that it will happen by early next week, but no more -"ish"es from me. Instead I'll just say this:

"Whenever the meeting does happen, I'll guarantee that I'll have a post out by the next business day at the latest, barring only my absence from work that day or an unexpected emergency."

I've noticed there have been no blog posts pretty much all week...is something going on ?

Shadow Lodge

Shiroi wrote:
doc the grey wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

@doc the grey

I can see the ability to use animated weapons to get their full attacks and all the magic abilities of a weapon at range as a tele-blast option. I can also see using a tele-anything composite blast by surrounding the thrown object with elemental matter, like a flaming desk flipping across the room, or freezing a tapestry so it becomes heavier and more solid and throwing it. I don't feel like creating a flaming chair as an autonimous creature would benefit the class in any way, if that's what you mean. For one, if you want your character to do that it's perfectly well within your power already. Use spark of life, elementals may have "normal/preferred" forms, but they can be molded any which way you choose. If you want to have a living suit of ice armor follow you around, Spark of Life works well for that already. Floating chandelier of wind? Weird, but not rulebending. Go for it.

Just realized I misunderstood what you said there. Dunno if I'd take that option, but animating objects as a spark of life equivalent wouldn't be out of line. Not my cup of tea, but a decent idea.

I believe the intention is to use animating objects as Aether's version of Spark of Life, since it cannot create elementals, using telekinesis to animate the object rather than animating objects with cold and fire.

This is pretty close to what I was envisioning. Like instead of them imbuing their element with a spark of their being a telekinetic is wrapping telekinetic force around an object and directing it to attack like a puppet. My telekinetic imbues his will upon the empty chair next to him and has it assault his captors, swinging and smashing at them with its wooden legs and arms with reckless abandon or filling a standing suite of armor with his drawn aether and sending it charging at bad guys.

I mean in my mind spark of life already basically lets a user make a fighting doll out of whatever element they are attuned to. The

...

I get that but I don't think anyone's saying that anymore than they are saying it's a problem with the normal use of it. Hell if I'm geomancing in a silver shop I could just as easily pull that off or hell anywhere since the shape of my sparked creation is really left to, the kineticist. As for the sentience it is a small piece of the creators consciousness rather than a new mind coming into existence so it's probably going to have more in line with it's parent mind then some new person. But if someone wants to have an animated creation with the mind of a matronly maid there is nothing stopping them from pulling that off with any of the other kineticists either though I don't know how helpful that will be in say, wasting some bandits lol.

Shadow Lodge

Like for me, the biggest thing I'm picturing is getting chased down that classic hall of mounted armors, stopping, and turning to my party and going, "I got this" and then start animating these suites of armor and sending them charging at the guards all the while blood dripping from his nose as he starts animating a small army.

Ohh or ending up in a kitchen and animating a swarm of butcher knives to come flying at the bandits who chased me in there.

Or s*$@, being on a battlefield and animating a broken trebutchet to stand up and start smacking orcs around with its giant catapult arm while trundling along on some broken tension wheels.

Liberty's Edge

Excaliburproxy wrote:
Fomsie wrote:
Shiroi wrote:

Question, you can't reduce the nonlethal damage from burn, but what if you're immune to Non-Lethal Damage altogether?

Reference : Mummification Discovery.

Mummification (EX) wrote:
The alchemist’s type does not change, but he becomes immune to cold, nonlethal damage, paralysis, and sleep.
Alchemist 10/Kineticist 10 hardly feels like an overpowered character, especially since I have a burn cap anyways, but this could be fairly interesting if someone can find another way to become immune to non-lethal.
This is a question that needs to be answered for undead in general. (Not that they would do to well with no Con score, but still)
You guys should read the section on burn. If you are immune to nonlethal damage then you are also unable to accept burn.

Yep... and this is why I shouldn't be up at 3 in the morning reading forums, apparently. I KNEW that was the case, but suffered from some serious late night, sleep deprived cerebral flatulence.


doc the grey wrote:

Like for me, the biggest thing I'm picturing is getting chased down that classic hall of mounted armors, stopping, and turning to my party and going, "I got this" and then start animating these suites of armor and sending them charging at the guards all the while blood dripping from his nose as he starts animating a small army.

Ohh or ending up in a kitchen and animating a swarm of butcher knives to come flying at the bandits who chased me in there.

Or s!+$, being on a battlefield and animating a broken trebutchet to stand up and start smacking orcs around with its giant catapult arm while trundling along on some broken tension wheels.

Thats magic, not telekinesis. :(

Grand Lodge

Sphynx wrote:
doc the grey wrote:

Like for me, the biggest thing I'm picturing is getting chased down that classic hall of mounted armors, stopping, and turning to my party and going, "I got this" and then start animating these suites of armor and sending them charging at the guards all the while blood dripping from his nose as he starts animating a small army.

Ohh or ending up in a kitchen and animating a swarm of butcher knives to come flying at the bandits who chased me in there.

Or s!+$, being on a battlefield and animating a broken trebutchet to stand up and start smacking orcs around with its giant catapult arm while trundling along on some broken tension wheels.

Thats magic, not telekinesis. :(

Well, isn't that all "magic"?


No, telekinetics is mind over matter. There is a thematic difference between a Kinetic Arcane School, which would imbue items with the ability to move, and telekinetics which is someone generating kinetic energy through their mind.

Albeit, in our mundane world, it is all magic, but not in a metaphysic world. And using the word "telekinetically" doesnt make it thematic either... Such as 4e (D&D), "telekinetically ripping open a hole in space time to teleport". The best thing about this class has been that it hasnt had a magic feel. It has been true to telekinetics as perceived by the rest of the world. Sensing kinetic energy, and either effecting it, or creating it.


@sphynx
So let's find the dividing line here between moving it with your mind and moving it with magic. Obviously if you have to add joints or flexibility to an object it's magic.
Is it the "moves even if I don't take an action" that makes it magic? Because I can focus on two different tasks at once. Multitasking isn't a huge deal, especially for someone who uses their minds to accomplish physical feats. It's a bit like being mentally ambidextrous.
Is it the complex motions involved in allowing something like a suit of armor to move through full range of motion with it's existing joints? Because that is a very refined form of telekinesis, but overall doesn't break what Jean Grey can do. It's really just a matter of enacting a telekinetic effect on each "bone" of the object, so you can move them independently of the "joints" of the object. Again, boiling down to multitasking and concentration.
Which leads to the question, does Many Throw violate your view of the distinction between magic and telekinetics?
And, as a final thought, if the Tele was balanced and viable without this SoL equivalent, would you feel neglected by it's inclusion in the class if for thematic reasons you refused to take it? In other words, if it was flatly unnecessary, just as good and no more so than any other option, would the choice to take it bother you?
Would making it a LoS/LoE based effect help you to accept it? The animated object must remain where you can exert some level of focus on it?

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