Care to elaborate on the connection between CON and HP, or are you so adamant in your position that you'll deny they are directly linked.1.) is correct, which I already stated.
2-4 are not. They are paying HP to activate abilities.
Con is a statistic.
HP is a derived statistic, determined in part by your Con score.
Using a derived statistic to fuel an ability that adds to a thing is not the same as using the main statistic to directly add to a thing.
Examples of the former: Burn, sort of Blood Money to cast something like Stoneskin (no, you're not adding your Str to your DR).
Examples of the latter: Cunning Initiative, Canny Defense
They are 100% not the same thing.
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Care to elaborate on the connection between CON and HP, or are you so adamant in your position that you'll deny they are directly linked.1.) is correct, which I already stated.
2-4 are not. They are paying HP to activate abilities.
Con is a statistic.
HP is a derived statistic, determined in part by your Con score.
And by increasing CON, you increase your HP, which you are in turn spending to gain a set of bonuses.
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Which is still not the same thing as adding Con to anything except HP.
This is a pretty simple concept.
Look at it like a maple tree.
Maple trees (Con) can be tapped for a sap (HP) that can be used to make delicious maple syrup (Effects that incur Burn).
But maple trees are NOT maple syrup, despite the fact that the syrup ultimately derives from the tree. When I add a teaspoon of maple syrup to my oatmeal, I have not just added a tree to my oatmeal.
Other classes get benefits from the tree itself. They hug the maple tree and their oatmeal is forever sweetened by delicious maple syrup from then on out, for free, once they've cultivated the tree.
They invested in a maple tree, and permanently gain the effects derived from said tree.
Burn doesn't work that way.
If that's the vision, it does it poorly. Because that's not what it does.
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great after reading the last few posts i want hot fluffy pancakes O.O lol besides that, i'm worried that to keep myself from having less hitpoints then a wizard from a D8 class by using my abilites, i AM going to have to min max, maxing out con at lv1 and sacrificing my other stats, i dont like min max characters, above averge con for a character of mine is 16 wich i'll put on a barbarian sine they get a use out of extra con besides hit points, but with the Kineticist i feel like i got to make sure i have as much hp as possible to be from being one shot by the BBEG's minion let alone the BBEG himself. i get cool abilites sure but if im using up my hitpoints for my abilites i feel i got to get something epic out of it, like a Dark Knight sacrifiing a bit of thier own life to deal a bunch of extra damage, but in turn that Dark knight no doubt has a power to drain his foes hitpoints to heal his own. and with me typing that i think that would be a super awesome way to deal with burn, being able to drain your enemies hitpoints to heal your non-leathal damage lol, that or i agree with cutting the damage delt to you to half level mininum 1 lol... now off to find some pancakes!
i wonder if IHOP is open at 1am....
what does the vision seem like it wants to be to you? (not being snarky i'm curious)
It seems quite clear that the vision is a character who "casts from hitpoints", but also has no capability of recovering.
Others, for some reason, want to liken it to something it is not (adding Con to various other derived attributes).
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yeah most of my characters are human, simply cuase that extra feat is so awesome lol, though i am trying to get out of that rut by building a PFS elf evo wizard lol. and yay for IHOP! lol but still, those other classes have thier pool of abilites and use a pool to use them, we have a pool as well, but while they dont sacrifice anything to use thier pool besides number of uses, we have to sacrifie hit points and number of pool, at least thats what i take from it lol, personally now that i think about it i am loving the idea of draining your foes health to restore your non-lethal damage (not your burn) like something along the lines of
Wild Drain: as a ranged touch attack you may deal a foe lethal damage equal to half your lv (mininum 1) and recover twice as many non-lethal damage as long as said damage is brought about by Burn
lol wow i stink at making something look good and professional sounding hahaha XD thank the gods we have folks who know how to do that working at Paizo lol
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yeah most of my characters are human, simply cuase that extra feat is so awesome lol, though i am trying to get out of that rut by building a PFS elf evo wizard lol. and yay for IHOP! lol but still, those other classes have thier pool of abilites and use a pool to use them, we have a pool as well, but while they dont sacrifice anything to use thier pool besides number of uses, we have to sacrifie hit points and number of pool, at least thats what i take from it lol, personally now that i think about it i am loving the idea of draining your foes health to restore your non-lethal damage (not your burn) like something along the lines of
Wild Drain: as a ranged touch attack you may deal a foe lethal damage equal to half your lv (mininum 1) and recover twice as many non-lethal damage as long as said damage is brought about by Burn
lol wow i stink at making something look good and professional sounding hahaha XD thank the gods we have folks who know how to do that working at Paizo lol
Yeah. it feels weirder to think of that chunk of nonlethal health as the "pool". It does feel like your losing more than a normal pool (and techincally you are) but that "burn pool" does a lot more than power one specific ability. (until you get over the FTB limit; at which point it's just painful for little benefit). I'll be more comfy with it assuming the general power levels go higher. I still wanna be able to burn myself to death though.
I would love to be able to drain enemy/transfer your burn to them.. but it would likely require them to be helpless or something and it would be insanely hard to word it in a way to prevent you from abusing it easily.. Like that sorta thing you just unload every bit of burn on the main boss, then just spend rounds eating the small guys, or even summon monsters to eat and heal-----------
Random thought on the topic of removing burn and that limit break I like.
Perhaps allow you to "vent your burn".
This turns your non lethal into lethal and...
hmm sounds cool hehe :3 also got to keep in mind i see alot of folks skimming over this, but we do have an actual pool of burn, 3+con mod, so even if we could heal the non-lethal (which would be awesome) we are still in fact limited like any other class in our pool amount lol
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Random thought on the topic of removing burn and that limit break I like.
Perhaps allow you to "vent your burn".
This turns your non lethal into lethal and...
That... would actually be pretty cool. Not sold on the specifics, but the one off burn out style attack based on how burned you are is neat.
Aetherkintetics would obviously have to go phoenix force for a few rounds, that would be one way to end the party with a bang.
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Artanthos, every time I see you post about 'burn is a good benefit' it always revolves around being a hydrokineticist, or using elemental form, or both.
So basically, as long as you are playing a hydrokineticist, or a geokineticist, and you spend the entirety of your life forever shapeshifted into an elemental, then Fuel the Burn and the drawbaacks of Burn have a healty pay off.
But you know what? Not every one is going to play that way. It's this little point and fact that you seem incapable of grasping.
What about the Pyrokineticists? Or the Aerokineticists? Especially if they don't want to be forever forced to be an elemental? How about the Telekineticist who is incapable of being an elemental? Have you stopped to consider those?
Have you stopped to consider the trade off of Burn when you're not playing in the most optimal way possible!?!?!
If you play the class in the most optimal fashion possible, yes, burn is worth the trade. Deviate even a little from the most optimal method of play, and you start seeing seriously negative returns on your burn investment.
Artanthos, every time I see you post about 'burn is a good benefit' it always revolves around being a hydrokineticist, or using elemental form, or both.
So basically, as long as you are playing a hydrokineticist, or a geokineticist, and you spend the entirety of your life forever shapeshifted into an elemental, then Fuel the Burn and the drawbaacks of Burn have a healty pay off.
But you know what? Not every one is going to play that way. It's this little point and fact that you seem incapable of grasping.
What about the Pyrokineticists? Or the Aerokineticists? Especially if they don't want to be forever forced to be an elemental? How about the Telekineticist who is incapable of being an elemental? Have you stopped to consider those?
Have you stopped to consider the trade off of Burn when you're not playing in the most optimal way possible!?!?!
If you play the class in the most optimal fashion possible, yes, burn is worth the trade. Deviate even a little from the most optimal method of play, and you start seeing seriously negative returns on your burn investment.
even missing out on the FCBs (some people will go for skill points, some for racial ones later released) and toughness ('but it's so boring!') alone will kick you in the throat--mismanage your burn reductions or use too many exotic abilities and your character will be extremely short-lived, or your cleric will resent you forever for tying him up constantly healing your unconscious self when he could be Hold Monster-ing in every encounter post-morning.
this is on top of the inherent issues of choosing, say, firebend--er, firekinesis for thematic reasons, since you're the most-resisted type and have crap defenses on top of burning yourself to near-death if you're not watching yourself like a hawk, on top of being shut down fairly handily by common DR (alignment)
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From what I gather, the class is okay DPS-wise given:
You use a touch-blast. They're just better.
You have the bonus from Air or Fire elemental form, fluffed as an elemental or not depending on your GM.
You have your Feel the Burn bonus maxed.
All three of these have problems:
The physical blasts being a trap-option isn't something people want.
People don't want to be forced to pick the Elemental Form and constantly be an elemental, but its mechanically super-good for Air and Fire to gain up to +3/+2 to-hit that basically stacks with everything. And the other bonuses mean the form is first choice for everyone who can pick it.
Burn feels like it should be something people use in clutch situations, to squeeze out extra power needed to overcome a challenge, not part of the morning routine while the caster is preparing spells, but it seems pumping your defences each day to have Feel the Burn active on round 1 of combat is the 'correct' choice. The thematics of burn are totally against the mechanics of it. The mechanics of a class pumping Con just to have average HP after burn also feel like a mechanics vs thematics clash. Feel the Burn as a class feature works for balance, but it doesn't make any sense in how it works. Maybe if burn was somehow per-encounter, like lasting for 10 minutes, instead of all day, it'd feel reasonable.
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Burn feels like it should be something people use in clutch situations, to squeeze out extra power needed to overcome a challenge, not part of the morning routine while the caster is preparing spells...The thematics of burn are totally against the mechanics of it.
This. At least, I also see it this way myself. Do others disagree? If so, why?
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Burn feels like it should be something people use in clutch situations, to squeeze out extra power needed to overcome a challenge, not part of the morning routine while the caster is preparing spells...The thematics of burn are totally against the mechanics of it.This. At least, I also see it this way myself. Do others disagree? If so, why?
This is definitely my issue as well. I feel like Feel The Burn should work somewhat differently mechanically to encourage this, as, perhaps, should the defensive powers.
How does it make sense? Why, logically, do you think it works this way?
What in-universe explanation is there for unhealable damage when people can regrow limbs, create an entire body that's been turned to dust and then call back someone's spirit from the afterlife, or even resurrect a corpse that is long dead and possibly doesn't exist any more (with the quite reasonable time limit of 200 years)?
Why, when all of that, can a Bard only inspire people with their singing for, like, 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Barbarian only rage for 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Rogue with Honeyed Words only speak well 1-4 times per day? Why can a Brawler only knock people out 1-3 times per day? Why any arbitrary limit on use for any ability for any class? Burn being unhealable is not the weirdest restriction on class abilities out there, sorry.
Artanthos, every time I see you post about 'burn is a good benefit' it always revolves around being a hydrokineticist, or using elemental form, or both.
So basically, as long as you are playing a hydrokineticist, or a geokineticist, and you spend the entirety of your life forever shapeshifted into an elemental, then Fuel the Burn and the drawbaacks of Burn have a healty pay off.
But you know what? Not every one is going to play that way. It's this little point and fact that you seem incapable of grasping.
What about the Pyrokineticists? Or the Aerokineticists? Especially if they don't want to be forever forced to be an elemental? How about the Telekineticist who is incapable of being an elemental? Have you stopped to consider those?
Have you stopped to consider the trade off of Burn when you're not playing in the most optimal way possible!?!?!
If you play the class in the most optimal fashion possible, yes, burn is worth the trade. Deviate even a little from the most optimal method of play, and you start seeing seriously negative returns on your burn investment.
Actually, the only "bad" elemental form is Earth, unless you're making a Strength based melee build. Fire still gets Dex and some fire resistance. Fire does have a terrible defense, but if you have to spend Burn anyway, it certainly doesn't hurt to deal more damage. Air's is only ok for Burn purposes. Earth is great early on for Burn, but by mid levels is lousy. Aether and Water have awesome defenses to spend Burn on, though, so it's totally worth doing for them.
You're also forgetting that everyone, by level 7, has the opportunity to take a second element. Unless you want Aether/Aether (and, I mean, why?) you will have access to Kinetic Form.
And remember, we've also only seen a fraction of the total number of Wild Talents actually slated for the book. For all we know, additional great buffs might exist for other elements that follow the same conceptual format as Kinetic Form (i.e. Buff X all day, or Y Burn for Buff X+1 all day).
That said, I think it is widely agreed upon that Kinetic Form has to change. The buffs are awesome, but I haven't seen anyone actually happy about transforming into an elemental to get them.
Burn feels like it should be something people use in clutch situations, to squeeze out extra power needed to overcome a challenge, not part of the morning routine while the caster is preparing spells...The thematics of burn are totally against the mechanics of it.This. At least, I also see it this way myself. Do others disagree? If so, why?
I would only agree if Feel the Burn did not exist. Feel the Burn is basically getting a rush of awesome from the pain of holding these elemental forces in check in your body. It makes a lot of sense to push your body to the edge of its limits in the morning to feel that super charged rush all day. I just imagine Feel the Burn to be like wearing braces. Anyone who ever had them, do you remember how you would bite down and it would kind of hurt, but like in a good way, so you'd do it anyway? Yeah, that's Feel the Burn.
Why, when all of that, can a Bard only inspire people with their singing for, like, 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Barbarian only rage for 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Rogue with Honeyed Words only speak well 1-4 times per day? Why can a Brawler only knock people out 1-3 times per day? Why any arbitrary limit on use for any ability for any class? Burn being unhealable is not the weirdest restriction on class abilities out there, sorry.
It is very much the weirdest, because it's not just an arbitrary limit imposed by the class, it hijacks a normal mechanic and then for some reason doesn't interact with things that affect that mechanic properly.
Coupled with the fact that for all of those except the Rogue's repeated ad stupid limits ond oing mundane things you can say it was for balance reasons. Not so here, since the boosts aren't really that huge in most cases, unless you're the Hydrokineticist, which is great (probably because Mark has a crush on Katara and Korra. =p), which still isn't OMGWTFBBQ levels of good that it requires handwavey unhealable damage effects to balance.
If Burn were healable it would pretty much fix all my problems with it. Hell, even "Only healable while any abilities that use Burn are not in effect" is a lot better, making them a lot like a Dragon Age: Origins Blood Mage who uses HP to cast toggleable abilities that usually take away a portion of their max mana*.
*I'm not 100% sure that trick works, but you get the idea.
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Actually, the only "bad" elemental form is Earth, unless you're making a Strength based melee build. Fire still gets Dex and some fire resistance. Fire does have a terrible defense, but if you have to spend Burn anyway, it certainly doesn't hurt to deal more damage. Air's is only ok for Burn purposes. Earth is great early on for Burn, but by mid levels is lousy. Aether and Water have awesome defenses to spend Burn on, though, so it's totally worth doing for them.
You're also forgetting that everyone, by level 7, has the opportunity to take a second element. Unless you want Aether/Aether (and, I mean, why?) you will have access to Kinetic Form.
And remember, we've also only seen a fraction of the total number of Wild Talents actually slated for the book. For all we know, additional great buffs might exist for other elements that follow the same conceptual format as Kinetic Form (i.e. Buff X all day, or Y Burn for Buff X+1 all day).
That said, I think it is widely agreed upon that Kinetic Form has to change. The buffs are awesome, but I haven't seen anyone actually happy about transforming into an elemental to get them.
I didn't say any of the Kinetic Forms were bad, but that there are probably lots of people who don't want to be forced to become an elemental in order to play a functional class.
Frankly, if I want to play someone like Natsu from Fairy Tail, I don't want to have to be forced into Kinetic Form to do it.
However, the major point of that post is that Artanthos is still focusing only on discussing elements of the class from an optimized approach.
Spending burn on your defense is great... If you're a hydro or geo kineticist.
Spending burn on Kinetic Form is great... If you're okay with being forced to take the form of an elemental for the entirety of your life from that point on.
Aether's defense is only good for the first 2 points of burn spent, after that, the trade off nose dives. However, taking the additional burn to offset the FtB bonus might be a decent trade off, especially if you're accuracy starved.
Air's defense is rather 'meh' and hardly worth the burn (unless up against a lot of archery), and fire's is straight up awful and should never, ever, be used.
There are optimal ways to get the most out of every point of burn, this is true. But the class should not be forced into an optimal path in order to function well. I should be able to play a pyrokineticist, organically, and not feel like I'm royally screwed in my burn options.
Why, when all of that, can a Bard only inspire people with their singing for, like, 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Barbarian only rage for 12 seconds per level per day? Why can a Rogue with Honeyed Words only speak well 1-4 times per day? Why can a Brawler only knock people out 1-3 times per day? Why any arbitrary limit on use for any ability for any class? Burn being unhealable is not the weirdest restriction on class abilities out there, sorry.It is very much the weirdest, because it's not just an arbitrary limit imposed by the class, it hijacks a normal mechanic and then for some reason doesn't interact with things that affect that mechanic properly.
Coupled with the fact that for all of those except the Rogue's repeated ad stupid limits ond oing mundane things you can say it was for balance reasons. Not so here, since the boosts aren't really that huge in most cases, unless you're the Hydrokineticist, which is great (probably because Mark has a crush on Katara and Korra. =p), which still isn't OMGWTFBBQ levels of good that it requires handwavey unhealable damage effects to balance.
If Burn were healable it would pretty much fix all my problems with it. Hell, even "Only healable while any abilities that use Burn are not in effect" is a lot better, making them a lot like a Dragon Age: Origins Blood Mage who uses HP to cast toggleable abilities that usually take away a portion of their max mana*.
*I'm not 100% sure that trick works, but you get the idea.
I only ever played the first Dragon Age, but in that one, Blood Magic imposed a healing penalty, making it harder to heal you while Blood Magic was activated. But one way you could abuse it was use Blood Magic on your offensive/defensive spells, then turn it off and use your healing magic (drawn from your mana pool) to heal your damage, then switch back.
Honestly, I would not be at all opposed to something like Blood Magic for the Kineticist. Something like...
When the Kineticist is currently benefiting from an ability that inflicts burn, the Kineticist takes a reduction in healing equal to 5% per point of burn, rounded down. For example, if Kyra healed Katara for 20 hit points, but Katara had her Water Shield activated and 3 burn points, Katara is only healed for 17 points of damage.
With this method, I would reduce Burn damage to only half your class level, but still be unhealable, while normal damage becomes harder to heal while a buff is currently active.
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Which is still not the same thing as adding Con to anything except HP.
Willful ignorance cannot be fought.
You build your characters your way, without taking advantage of the classes features. I will build my characters my way, taking full advantage of burn.
Oddly enough, I have experienced none of your problems, but you are free to build how you wish.
I still think the Force Ward is awesome no matter how many Burn I pay (I will trade 2 hp for 1 regenerating hp that blocks on hit effects all day).
That said, turning off your burn makes sense and would be cool, but it would require a reimagining of the burn system. Everything you spend burn on would have to last until you lost the burn. Substance/form infusions would last until you turned them off. Composites would change the composition of your blast until ut turned off. Metakinesis would be a toggle, too. It would be cool, but I feel like it would be a totally different class at that point.
Just want to ask, am I the only one who does want some way to become a giant elemental? Though... I'll admit that it shouldn't be required to be decent in the class and you shouldn't be in it permanently... and that you probably should be able to use both your elements at once with it or something.
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Artanthos, every time I see you post about 'burn is a good benefit' it always revolves around being a hydrokineticist, or using elemental form, or both.
I've not even built a hydrokineticist. I've posted a geokineticist and an aerokineticist.
Force Ward is an equally viable defense to generate burn, starting at low level. The only one who gets shafted on a good way to generate burn before level 7 is the pyrokineticist.
Have you stopped to consider the trade off of Burn when you're not playing in the most optimal way possible!?!?!
How much sympathy would you have for a charisma focused barbarian who complained about low DPR? How much sympathy for an archer that failed to take precise shot?
As a player you make the choices that define your character. Some of those choices are more functional than others.
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Willful ignorance cannot be fought.
As you so often show.
You build your characters your way, without taking advantage of the classes features. I will build my characters my way, taking full advantage of burn.
Take advantage of Burn, don't take advantage of Burn, take enough Burn to make yourself pass out, the fact remains that you are in now way adding Con to anything other than your HP, Fort saves, number to determine when you die, and Blast damage.
It does not add to HP, DR, to-hit, damage beyond its basic modifier, miss chance, size, or anything else you would like to credit it with.
Burn does that. In a roundabout way HP does that.
Con does not do that.
Oddly enough, I have experienced none of your problems, but you are free to build how you wish.
Thank you, Captain Obvious, I had not realized that you, as a person who likes the mechanic, have not experienced the problem I have (which is, funnily enough, that I simply DON'T LIKE THE MECHANIC).
That's like me saying "I don't like squash. It makes me throw up." (true story, I can't help myself.) and you retorting with "Well, I love squash. I haven't experienced any of your problems, but you're free to vomit as you wish."
How much sympathy would you have for a charisma focused barbarian who complained about low DPR? How much sympathy for an archer that failed to take precise shot?
As a player you make the choices that define your character. Some of those choices are more functional than others.
Usually there is some sort of middle ground between terrible and functional.
The optimal Barbarian is a Beast Totem Spell Sundering Ragemachine.
However, a Barbarian does not require those things to be exceptional. Dragon Totem, Spirit Totem, Celestial Totem all provide unique, powerful benefits.
Rage Powers other than Superstition/Spell Sunder/Witch Hunter can provide viable, powerful options.
In this thread two things have become pretty much unanimously clear: You NEED Feel the Burn, and you NEED Kinetic Form (Unless you're Earth and trying to do ranged or Aether, in which case you're SoL) to function at a viable level.
Essentially you're saying that it is perfectly fine that the BTSSRm Barbarian is the only viable option, and that's 100% okay.
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I honestly think the bigger problem than Burn "needing to be played optimally" is the elements being unbalanced in terms of utility, defenses and how useful their blasts are. Fire and Aether just suck in general due a to a lack of good talents and access to only one blast (though at least Aether gets Force Ward.)
Outside of these elements being pretty woefully underpowered on their own, I guess I can see the problem other people have with the flavor of taking burn at the beginning of the day to fuel always-on abilities, but it works so well in practice I can overlook it, myself.
Seriously, I think the players complaining about Burn are never going to be swayed because they just don't like it, even if if the trade-off was ten times as much.
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I honestly think the bigger problem than Burn "needing to be played optimally" is the elements being unbalanced in terms of utility, defenses and how useful their blasts are. Fire and Aether just suck in general due a to a lack of good talents and access to only one blast (though at least Aether gets Force Ward.)
Nobody disagrees on any of these points. A consensus was reached early in the play test and Mark already plans to address most of the issues.
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There is a rather large difference between building something like that, where they have completely neglected their classes role/abilities, and someone who just doesn't feel like playing as an elemental all the time, or someone who wants to try a different set up but is still trying to make something useful.
A fair number of different builds have been posted using a variety of play styles. The only thing all the effective builds have had in common is intelligent usage of Burn.
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I honestly think the bigger problem than Burn "needing to be played optimally" is the elements being unbalanced in terms of utility, defenses and how useful their blasts are. Fire and Aether just suck in general due a to a lack of good talents and access to only one blast (though at least Aether gets Force Ward.)Nobody disagrees on any of these points. A consensus was reached early in the play test and Mark already plans to address most of the issues.
I wasn't saying it was in disagreement, I was addressing that I think that plays a large part in why some people feel Kineticist Burn is "Only by playing perfectly optimally does this work"
On a completely different note, throw my hat in for infusions not being locked to specific blasts. Aside from just being confusing to parse through, (Does ___ apply to air or just to air blast??) it's just needlessly restrictive to force certain builds only to get a single desirable infusion.
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hmm from what it seems like, one problem that folks notice that should be fixed is that like any other character we have a Burn pool, not a imaginary pool, but 3+Con mod per day, but unlike other characters that have similar pools to use abilites we're left sort of on the sideline, a Magus who uses up all his Arcane pool is still standing strong, and can lean on thier own fighting ability and spells. when we use up our pool we end up almost half dead sometime over half dead, but it seems just getting the all day buffs is worth it to alot of folks, and i can see that it can be, but like others said, who wants to be a element for rest of your life lol, i mean i have no idea what the final version is going to look like after staying up with this thread, so much has been posted and no doubt Mark will take in pretty much all of our suggestions and find what works to have both a funtional and fun class lol so yeah i still love this class out of any of the new classes and i cant wait to see what happens next with it lol ^^
Yeah, I am not really seeing any problem with Aether. It lacks kinetic form and that's kind of it. If I had to rank the Power of the elements, I would probably say:
Water
Aether = Earth
Air
Fire
However, I think that Air is the most boring overall because they are ill suited to doing anything other than fly around and blast from really far away. Fire is almost as bad. But I feel like Aether, Earth, and Water have some fun stuff to do if they got enough wild talents to actually take the fun stuff.
Aether also has a bad defense. Trading HP for half that number in HP that regenerates FAAAAAAAAAR too slowly to be a worthwhile trade is pretty bad.
Not as bad as "I Burn HP so that when things hit me they take a piddling amount of damage!", but still bad.
How much sympathy would you have for a charisma focused barbarian who complained about low DPR? How much sympathy for an archer that failed to take precise shot?As a player you make the choices that define your character. Some of those choices are more functional than others.
Wouldn't a Cha focused Barb with spirit totem be decent? They get Cha to dam for their spirits.
Rage still boosts attacks.They'd be a little bit off, but not suboptimal or sucky.
Now Int focused Barb would be weak (nothing boosted by Int) unless multiclassed.
You'd end up with a barb with spirit totem and eldritch heritage. That doesn't sound bad.
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But almost all of them are relying on Elemental Body. If that is the only "intelligent usage of Burn" the class has then there is a problem. And arguing about Charismatic Barbarians as if that was the same as simply not wanting to be an elemental all day every day can come off as dismissive of people who would want to not be a cookie cutter character and build there own. This is why my friends and I stopped playing 4th-ed and having read over 5th will probably not be playing much of that either, when there is one good choice and a lot of bad ones the class suffers.There is a rather large difference between building something like that, where they have completely neglected their classes role/abilities, and someone who just doesn't feel like playing as an elemental all the time, or someone who wants to try a different set up but is still trying to make something useful.A fair number of different builds have been posted using a variety of play styles. The only thing all the effective builds have had in common is intelligent usage of Burn.
Aetherkineticist may, or may not, have access to elemental body at 10th level depending on build. Force Ward remains viable for the classes entire lifetime and an Aether/Aether kineticist can deal force damage, which nearly nothing can mitigate.