The most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures in the bestiaries.

[The Human Diversion]

We all know about creatures that have a CR clearly below where they should be - they're in PFS adventures and are known for causing TPKs or a GM might throw one at you because they look neat and then characters end up dead.

There are also creatures who have a CR that seems higher than the challenge the present - it seems like every party mops the floor with these poor slobs when they're in an encounter.

What do you think are the most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures out there?

[Neverwillibreak]

Reefclaws are pretty under CRed

[Kydeem de'Morcaine]

Under-CR'd

Standard class level characters. If the GM builds them as well as his players, runs them as intelligently as his players, and Nova's them as his players probably can't. ...

[Insain Dragoon]

Aboleth. Dat nigh impossible Dominate will save.

[blahpers]

Mosquito swarm. This thing is deadly if you don't have particular spells available. I adjust the CR accordingly (+1 unless the party has readily-available AoE damage).

[blahpers]

Oh, and ghasts. They're ridonkulously low, especially since their stench effectively raises the DC of their paralysis and disease abilities. Both can be deadly at that level. Compare bugbear, which has the same CR of 2. Yeah.

[AlgaeNymph]

Cernunnos.

[Demiurge 1138]

Gnolls are over-CRed. They're a CR 1 that is notably less scary than just about any humanoid with warrior or fighter levels.

[shadowkras]

Bodaks, if your group doesnt know you will fight them.
1d4 negative levels per turn on a DC18 fort that will keep gettting harder if you fail the saves, and all they have to do is stand there, alive (?), looking at you...

At least it isnt save or die anymore.

Quote:

Oh, and ghasts. They're ridonkulously low, especially since their stench effectively raises the DC of their paralysis and disease abilities. Both can be deadly at that level. Compare bugbear, which has the same CR of 2. Yeah.

Ghasts are how your GM say "f@$! you guys".

[Lemartes]

More powerful than CR would suggest: Shinning Child

Less powerful than CR would suggest: Not sure at the moment.

[MagusJanus]

Ghasts really are best used as a challenging accompaniment to a high-level undead. Such as a lich...

Under-CRed? Animated objects. Look like normal chair. Wait for PC to sit on me. SURPRISE!

[Jiggy]

Wights. At CR 3, they're supposed to be a "challenging" encounter for an APL 1 party.

Except the level drain is auto-kill on a 1st-level PC (remember there's no save to avoid taking the negative level; the save is to avoid it becoming permanent a day later, but it's too late by then if you're dead).

Level drain shouldn't be on the radar for 1st level. :/

[Raisse]

Seugathi are nasty for their CR.

[Dragon78]

Any creature that can do ability damage, ability drain, paralyze, or energy drain at low levels.

[Atarlost]

All incorporeal undead. Incorporeal touch attacks bypass most defenses and attack things that scale a lot more slowly than HP. Their offense therefore does not properly decline in danger against higher APL parties.

One Shadow might be CR 3 (though being unable to heal the damage without a level 3 cleric or druid or level 4 paladin with the right spell prepared or level 4 oracle or inquisitor with the right spell known says otherwise) but 16 shadows are probably over CR 11 at least against parties without positive energy channeling.

Other mass combat encounters use aid another to make a few hits but incorporeal touch attacks don't need to mess with that, and I think they can attack out of walls and the floor, trading a 50% miss chance for the ability to make a flat footed incorporeal touch attack. And I don't think you can even fight back except using readied actions unless you can destroy the walls or floor.

[Gorbacz]

PF Bestiaries are remarkably better than 3.0/3.5 (hello Dragons, Beholders, Mind Flayers and virtually any undead) at pegging CR and most of the time it's a case of -1 or +1 off the mark.

And of course, there are Seugathi, who are wildly off :)

[wraithstrike]

I was just about to mention Seugathi. Their abilities are all over the place.

Shadows in groups are under CR'd. They are smart enough to use gang(all attack on character) tactics, but I never do it, so the players can live.

Linnorms are over CR'd. That curse is annoying but the fight is not up to the CR.

The Tarrasque is over CR'd. I know it is a plot device with stats, but it can be beaten my parts 10 levels below its CR.

[The Human Diversion]

Jiggy wrote:

Wights. At CR 3, they're supposed to be a "challenging" encounter for an APL 1 party.

Except the level drain is auto-kill on a 1st-level PC (remember there's no save to avoid taking the negative level; the save is to avoid it becoming permanent a day later, but it's too late by then if you're dead).

Level drain shouldn't be on the radar for 1st level. :/

You couldn't possibly be referring to a very specific encounter of a moderately famous Pathfinder dungeon that was approved for Society play.

[ryric]

Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.

[Adam B. 135]

ryric wrote:

Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.

My DM was not thinking and had us fight one at 5th level. Talk about brutal.

[EvilPaladin]

Well, I have a campaign specific one

Rappun Athuk Minor Spoiler:

The greatly feared Dung Monster

[Jiggy]

The Human Diversion wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Wights. At CR 3, they're supposed to be a "challenging" encounter for an APL 1 party.

Except the level drain is auto-kill on a 1st-level PC (remember there's no save to avoid taking the negative level; the save is to avoid it becoming permanent a day later, but it's too late by then if you're dead).

Level drain shouldn't be on the radar for 1st level. :/

You couldn't possibly be referring to a very specific encounter of a moderately famous Pathfinder dungeon that was approved for Society play.

Ha! I actually wasn't thinking of that when I posted, but it's definitely included!

[voideternal]

I'll raise the Poltergeist for a level 1~2 party. Natural invisibility + incorporeal + fly speed kinda forces a party without foreknowledge to retreat. Where the wight has ridiculous offense, the poltergeist has ridiculous defense. And some classic, nonmagical, cheap anti-invisibility tactics, like flour, just don't work on the incorporeal poltergeist. It's channel positive or run. (Maybe faerie fire, if your caster actually prepared that at level 1~2, and even then there's still incorporeal flying)

[Renegadeshepherd]

Going to get flack for this but i would say a pit fiend for weak. Yeah it's powerful and has an arsenal of spell like abilities but I recently realized that for its level it is surprisingly weak willed. That weak will allows it to simply be dominated, dazed, charmed , and such relatively easily for someone that pursues those status effects. Even on a die roll of 20+ his 18 that's very beatable. Spell resistance is even easier.

[Aelryinth]

Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.

Humanoids with NPC warrior levels. A Gnoll Warrior/10 is CR 5.

Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.

==Aelryinth

[Dragon78]

Yes, I agree, shadows and shadow demons are way to strong for there CR.

[Kimera757]

There's a swarm of birds in Kingmaker book 2. They inflict permanent blindness at-will. Our group had a druid and oracle but no cleric, and so no Remove Blindness. Did I forget to mention the blindness was permanent? Every BBEG should charm flocks of these things.

[GoldEdition42]

Yeth Hounds. In the name of all that's holy what in the hell are these things doing at a mere CR3?!?!?!?!?

[CommandoDude]

Kimera757 wrote:

There's a swarm of birds in Kingmaker book 2. They inflict permanent blindness at-will. Our group had a druid and oracle but no cleric, and so no Remove Blindness. Did I forget to mention the blindness was permanent? Every BBEG should charm flocks of these things.

I believe there was a remove blindness scroll you're suppose to find in the temple if that happened. Though, I guess the module kind of relies on PCs finding it...

Yeah, our party leader (my char) got his eyes plucked out and after that everyone hid in the house until they left. It was pretty nasty.

[wraithstrike]

Renegadeshepherd wrote:

Going to get flack for this but i would say a pit fiend for weak. Yeah it's powerful and has an arsenal of spell like abilities but I recently realized that for its level it is surprisingly weak willed. That weak will allows it to simply be dominated, dazed, charmed , and such relatively easily for someone that pursues those status effects. Even on a die roll of 20+ his 18 that's very beatable. Spell resistance is even easier.

I think it depends on how optimized the party is. If someone is pushing to force high saves then most monsters are out of luck. For an average party it can cause a lot of trouble if played well. Assuming they are level 15 or 16.

[Pupsocket]

ryric wrote:

Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.

That f~*!ing TPK Shadow Demon in that Adventure Path...*shakes fist*

[wraithstrike]

Aelryinth wrote:

Witchfires. Incorp undead and devastating ranged attack.

Succubi are famous for their CR having a nigh-unbeatable save DC against Charm Monster.

==Aelryinth

There two right here are a PitA. I have never fought a witchfire, but I have used them.

[Ascalaphus]

Orcs. A CR 1/3 monster with +5 to hit, 2d4+4 damage (18-20/x2), is likely to drop squishies in one hit, and with a critical, any level one party member. They're actually capable of outright killing wizards in a single critical hit.

Their Ferocity gives them 12 "bonus" HP, making them hard to drop as well. And they come equipped with javelins that pack a decent punch.

Sure, you can fight their -1 Will save effectively with Sleep/Color Spray. But if you don't have that ready, they can seriously mess you up.

[Propsken]

Any critter with racial HD that gets non-associated class levels can easilly be under-CR'ed.
Point in case: Take a basic CR 3 Ogre, give it the Advanced template for +1 CR, then give it 16 levels of Cleric (putting a +4 in Wis) for another +8. That's a 20-hit-die level 16 spellcaster with major base stats and magical equipment at only CR 12. Supposedly, this is an "interresting, tough challenge" for a level 10 party. U-huh...

[Ascalaphus]

@Propsken: at that point you should take the CR of a 16th level cleric as the starting point (CR 15 with NPC gear) and increase it for being an ogre; instead of doing it the other way around.

[wraithstrike]

The unassociated class level count as associated once the class levels equals CR.

[Ascalaphus]

Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

[Blakmane]

There's a lot on under-CR monsters here. Let's talk about over CRed monsters!

Most golems, but especially the iron golem, are quite over-CRed. Iron golems only pose a threat to a party without fly (highly unlikely by level 11-13) and with their atrocious reflex save are easily defeated by simple no SR spells like create pit.

Hell, a party (or even individual wizard) as low as 3rd level can defeat an iron golem given enough preparation.

[Deadmanwalking]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Uh...the first, but that results in CR 18 (4+2+12). Remember the Advanced Template in the example.

[Sissyl]

Any low-CR monster that can force save or "die". Worst of the bunch in my experience are allips. 3-6 of these means 3-6 Will DC 15 or be hypnotised.

[wraithstrike]

Ascalaphus wrote:

Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Example an ogre is a CR 3

Adding 2 levels of cleric add +1 CR taking it o CR 4

Adding 1 more level of cleric is still a CR 4.

When you add the next level it goes to CR 5, At this time you have 4 level of cleric which surpassed the base CR of 3

From this point on every cleric level will add +1 CR

so when you get to 10 levela of cleric the CR will also be a CR 10.

[Deadmanwalking]

wraithstrike wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Example an ogre is a CR 3

Adding 2 levels of cleric add +1 CR taking it o CR 4

Adding 1 more level of cleric is still a CR 4.

When you add the next level it goes to CR 5, At this time you have 4 level of cleric which surpassed the base CR of 3

From this point on every cleric level will add +1 CR

so when you get to 10 levela of cleric the CR will also be a CR 10.

Uh...no. 10 levels of Cleric makes a standard Ogre CR 11 (3+1+7). Also, the example was an Advanced Ogre (CR 4) which changes things a bit.

[wraithstrike]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

wraithstrike wrote:

Ascalaphus wrote:

Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Example an ogre is a CR 3

Adding 2 levels of cleric add +1 CR taking it o CR 4

Adding 1 more level of cleric is still a CR 4.

When you add the next level it goes to CR 5, At this time you have 4 level of cleric which surpassed the base CR of 3

From this point on every cleric level will add +1 CR

so when you get to 10 levela of cleric the CR will also be a CR 10.

Uh...no. 10 levels of Cleric makes a standard Ogre CR 11 (3+1+7). Also, the example was an Advanced Ogre (CR 4) which changes things a bit.

I noticed the advanced part later, but I was too lazy to edit it.

[aurax]

I agree with orcs being under CR'ed. Our DM created and adventure using only orcs, and their ferocity made them as tough to drop as many CR2 monsters, being CR 1/3 in theory.

Speaking about over CR'ed, the clockwork goliath's is hugely inflated. With less than 200 effective HPs, vulnerability to electricity, no special movement capabilities (to fight flying enemies), crappy perception, no special vision or senses, no spell resistance, no regeneration or healing at all... any decent group of level 7 PCs that just avoid staying close to the four slam attacks and self-destruct explosion will drop it in no time... for a CR19 monster is really disappointing.

[andreww]

The Adamantine Golem is a CR19 opponent with no ability to fly and no form of listed ranged attack. If it wasn't for its indestructible trait it would barely be a challenge for a group around level 10. Golems generally are pretty terrible.

Grendel exhibits similar problems and is CR19 with 7 Mythic ranks and doesnt have the crutch of indestructibility.

Heading back to the CRB the Shoggoth is a pretty terrible CR19 opponent. Its only strong ability at this level is aoe confusion and the DC is rather low.

At the other end of the scale the Purple Worm is potentially lethal to a party around level 10. Sure it is a big stupid monster but just flying over it isnt likely to work as it will burrow out of sight. Going anywhere near melee with it is likely to be lethal with a nigh unbeatable CMB at this level. Tumbling around it is next to impossible with CMD40. Its will and reflex saves are a huge liability but I am not really sure what you are supposed to do if you are not a spell casting flying character. If it surprises your group by tunnelling from below you could be in real trouble.

[shadowkras]

Quote:

The Adamantine Golem is a CR19 opponent with no ability to fly and no form of listed ranged attack. If it wasn't for its indestructible trait it would barely be a challenge for a group around level 10. Golems generally are pretty terrible.

You can fly away from 90% of monsters, the thing about golems is that you rarely will find them on open fields, they are guarding corridors and dungeons. Being large, they have enough reach to hit a flying mage on the ceiling of a dungeon. They will be guarding that lovely treasure room you want so much.

Quote:

Heading back to the CRB the Shoggoth is a pretty terrible CR19 opponent. Its only strong ability at this level is aoe confusion and the DC is rather low.

But it's a free action, and again, you ignore the fact that you dont find shoggoths on plains, they are underwater creatures and if much you will find them inside caves, also, 30 ft reach.

[Celanian]

An NPC Master Summoner would be wildly under CR'd, especially with any sort of prep time.

[Aelryinth]

Yeah, the Shoggoth is basically always fought in dungeons or underwater, and that reach is incredible. There's literally no way to avoid it in the standard situations you fight them at.

==Aelryinth

[andreww]

Aelryinth wrote:

Yeah, the Shoggoth is basically always fought in dungeons or underwater, and that reach is incredible. There's literally no way to avoid it in the standard situations you fight them at.

==Aelryinth

Maybe but at the level at which you are likely to face it it doesnt really matter as freedom of movement is so common/easy to get.

Also, lots of caves are really damn big.

[Voadam]

andreww wrote:

Aelryinth wrote:

Yeah, the Shoggoth is basically always fought in dungeons or underwater, and that reach is incredible. There's literally no way to avoid it in the standard situations you fight them at.

==Aelryinth

Maybe but at the level at which you are likely to face it it doesnt really matter as freedom of movement is so common/easy to get.

Also, lots of caves are really damn big.

I've seen them in a published Paizo adventure designed for level 8 PCs. ;)

Spoiler:

Crucible of Chaos, and designed for 3.5 PCs, not pathfinder ones