The most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures in the bestiaries.


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

51 to 100 of 698 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>

That adventure sounds fun, the shoggoth in there is CR 15 though, but no less deadly.

I like this part:

Quote:


TacticS
Before Combat the shoggoth cries with its
fearful keening to induce fear before closing
to engulf its foes.
During Combat the shoggoth uses its slams
in the first round of any encounter, hoping
to knock down a foe quickly. in the second
round, it engulfs one or more foes.
Morale the shoggoth retreats under cover if
faced with flying opponents
and it flees if
reduced to less than 50 hit points without
feeding on a foe. Otherwise, the shoggoth
fights to the death.

And the engulf ability was different though:

3.5 Shoggoth's Engulf:

Engulf (ex) A shoggoth can bowl over creatures
up to one size category smaller than itself as
a standard action. this attack affects as many
opponents as the shoggoth’s body can cover.
each target can make either an attack of
opportunity against the shoggoth or attempt
a Dc 39 reflex save to avoid being engulfed.
A successful saving throw indicates that
the target has been pushed back or aside
(target’s choice) as the shoggoth moves
forward. An engulfed creature is considered
grappled and trapped within the shoggoth’s
body. A shoggoth cannot make a slam
attack during a round in which it attempts
to engulf, but each successfully engulfed
creatures takes automatic slam damage
on that round and every round it remains
trapped. On any round after engulfing
a creature, the shoggoth can attempt to
absorb it as a free action. if the shoggoth
has successfully grabbed a creature and it
is still grappling that creature at the start of
the shoggoth’s next turn, the shoggoth may
automatically engulf the creature. the save
Dc is Strength-based.

Absorb (ex) A shoggoth feeds by absorbing
other creatures into its hideous amoeboid
form. Any creature engulfed by
the monster for 1 full round must
succeed at a Dc 31 fortitude save
or be absorbed into the mass and
die. A successful save prevents
absorption that round. each
absorbed creature heals a shoggoth
of 2d6 points of damage. A shoggoth
expels the absorbed creature’s metal,
wood, and other belongings from
its body 1d3 rounds after absorption.
Nothing short of a wish or similar magic
can restore an absorbed creature. the
save Dc is constitution-based.

Dark Archive

Insain Dragoon wrote:
Aboleth. Dat nigh impossible Dominate will save.

Not just the Dominate save - almost all of its attacks are out of DC foe a CR 7 creature - by several points.


For over-CRed monsters: Tarrasque. While it does have ranged attacks, the range isn't all that great for level 25, making it easy for the PCs to fly out of its reach.
And, unlike golems, which can guard low-ceiling vaults, the Tarrasque is conventionally fought outside (the mythological Tarrasque was killed outdoors in an open space, anyways).


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The challenge of the Tarrasque is more destroying it before it takes out entire towns/villages/civilizations.


The generic tiefling in the Bestiary is pretty good for its CR in groups and a dungeon setting (low light). One of them throws Darkness on a low level party and the rest volley fire light crossbows getting automatic sneak attack damage vs anyone without darkvision. Can take out one PC per turn. Especially if there is some muscle who can protect them against the PCs with darkvision.


7 people marked this as a favorite.

Will o wisp has been a problem in more than a few combats. CR 6, immune to (most) magic, high AC, flying, naturally invisible, fast healing if around dying creature. Surprisingly nasty.


I find it isn't usually the critter but the environment to be the problem. Trying to fight anything in an enclosed space full of difficult terrain is much much harder.

As others have mentioned I find the most under CR encounters are with humanoids. A 13th level rogue run intelligently is a scary scary encounter that will often leave you broke and wondering when the encounter is about to begin. A 13th level wizard run intelligently will TPK a group of 10th level characters really often.


Orcs and ghouls are both really deadly at low levels.

Three orcs at 1st level are tough, as they soak up a lot of damage before going down and can hit pretty hard in turn.

A single ghoul can potentially kill an entire 1st level party; they have three attacks, which means three chances at paralyze. If there's multiple ghouls, and they're flanking, things get even worse. Best to avoid these suckers 'till about 3rd or 4th level, unless you've got some real heavy-hitters in the party.

The Exchange

I note that a number of these examples (shadows, yeth hounds, allips - plus most critters that can induce fear or paralysis) are issues not in and of themselves, but become so when they're encountered in substantial numbers. In other words, they're about right when they're alone but packs are far more dangerous than the usual EL rules suggest.


Detect Magic wrote:

Orcs and ghouls are both really deadly at low levels.

Three orcs at 1st level are tough, as they soak up a lot of damage before going down and can hit pretty hard in turn.

I've had players encounter a single group of orcs in a dungeon and take advantage of how tough they are by temporarily allying with them. The orcs usually don't make it out alive, but the players still get experience for it (remember, experience is for *surviving* the encounter), and they make their lives easier.


Adam B. 135 wrote:
ryric wrote:
Shadow Demons are very very tough for CR7. Incorporeal + DR is just a rough combo. Very few parties at that point have a weapon that's both magical and cold iron, and if they do there's probably just one so the demon can easily focus fire. Oh plus it resists or is immune to most energy types as well, and has SR. Just tough at level 7.
My DM was not thinking and had us fight one at 5th level. Talk about brutal.

I've seen more, near party wipes with the shadow demon then any other creatures. And that's with the DM playing nice and not using it's magic jar ability, or them summoning more shadow demons. or just hiding in the shadows and flinging people around with telekinesis

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

Lincoln Hills wrote:
I note that a number of these examples (shadows, yeth hounds, allips - plus most critters that can induce fear or paralysis) are issues not in and of themselves, but become so when they're encountered in substantial numbers. In other words, they're about right when they're alone but packs are far more dangerous than the usual EL rules suggest.

Big groups of incorporeal monsters can wreak havoc on even a high level party. A big group of spectres, for example, can really mess up a party during the surprise round. 16 spectres is an EL15 encounter - until they 5 foot steps out of the walls, floor, and ceiling all amongst your party and hit your group with 32 negative levels during the surprise round. That's potentially two PCs dead before they get to go, who are going to be spectres themselves in just a few rounds.

I had a GM who loved this tactic. Ghost touch armor was so worth it in that game.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The DM needs to remember that the spectres can move through solid objects, but can't see through them. They'd have to guess which squares to emerge into, or the party is likely to be across the room out of reach. Yes, they have Blind-Fight, if they want to stay in the walls and attack an adjacent person who's standing still, but they have no actual means of x-ray vision.


The Human Diversion wrote:
What do you think are the most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures out there?

Wisps and Venger

Dark Archive

wraithstrike wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Example an ogre is a CR 3

Adding 2 levels of cleric add +1 CR taking it o CR 4

Adding 1 more level of cleric is still a CR 4.

When you add the next level it goes to CR 5, At this time you have 4 level of cleric which surpassed the base CR of 3

From this point on every cleric level will add +1 CR

so when you get to 10 levela of cleric the CR will also be a CR 10.

Can I just check something with you here.

What CR is a cleric of level 4 for these calculations? CR 2 (no equipment), CR 3(NPC equipment) or CR 4( PC equipment )?

Or is it a judgemenet call?

Richard


richard develyn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Ascalaphus wrote:
Does that mean that the first 4 levels of cleric count as half ((because 4 >= 4) making it CR 17), or that all cleric levels count full (because 16 > 4), making it CR 19?

Example an ogre is a CR 3

Adding 2 levels of cleric add +1 CR taking it o CR 4

Adding 1 more level of cleric is still a CR 4.

When you add the next level it goes to CR 5, At this time you have 4 level of cleric which surpassed the base CR of 3

From this point on every cleric level will add +1 CR

so when you get to 10 levela of cleric the CR will also be a CR 10.

Can I just check something with you here.

What CR is a cleric of level 4 for these calculations? CR 2 (no equipment), CR 3(NPC equipment) or CR 4( PC equipment )?

Or is it a judgemenet call?

Richard

The CR calculation assumes NPC gear that matches the CR. If you do no gear it is up to the GM.

When NPC's are over-geared in AP's they tend to get +1 CR.


Whoops, looks like I skipped the bump-CR-once-class-level-catch-up-to-racial-HD-rule somewhere. My bad; please disregard my post then.

As a quick sidenote question: is a monster with racial HD ánd class levels geared for its class level, or its CR?

Dark Archive

From the PRD: "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR "

Incidentally, I think halves should be rounded up in this instance, because of the way stats go up the minute you take up a level in a PC class and the fact that you are then entitled to equipment.

In other words, an Ogre with one level of cleric should be CR 4, ditto two levels, then CR 5 with three levels and CR 6 with four.

(IMVHO)

Richard


Propsken wrote:

Whoops, looks like I skipped the bump-CR-once-class-level-catch-up-to-racial-HD-rule somewhere. My bad; please disregard my post then.

As a quick sidenote question: is a monster with racial HD ánd class levels geared for its class level, or its CR?

CR


richard develyn wrote:

From the PRD: "A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR "

Incidentally, I think halves should be rounded up in this instance, because of the way stats go up the minute you take up a level in a PC class and the fact that you are then entitled to equipment.

In other words, an Ogre with one level of cleric should be CR 4, ditto two levels, then CR 5 with three levels and CR 6 with four.

(IMVHO)

Richard

That is not correct. The cleric is a not a "key" class so it takes two cleric levels to go up one CR at first. so an Ogre with 2 cleric levels is only a CR 4.

If it was a fighter or barbarian then it would be a CR 5.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.

I realise that. I just thought the first 1/2 CR from the non-key class should be rounded up to 1 - as an opinion :-)

Richard


richard develyn wrote:

I realise that. I just thought the first 1/2 CR from the non-key class should be rounded up to 1 - as an opinion :-)

Richard

I think we are talking past each other.

Are you saying that is a rule or "how you would do it"?

PS: Even if you say it is a rule I won't keep the debate going since. I am just curious. :)

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:

I realise that. I just thought the first 1/2 CR from the non-key class should be rounded up to 1 - as an opinion :-)

Richard

I personally think it should be kept in (I do this sometimes) for hyper-optimized player groups. So in a way you get a slight pad to a creature (not much when talking NPC classes) that you as DM do not need to pay for out of your xp budget.

There are a few legal workarounds to increase creature power without having to add CR/xp, most do not increase the power very much and should only be used if the PCs can handle the extra pressure or if they are redlined in effectiveness. Theoretically you could add a non-key class or NPC class to any creature without changing its CR as long as the new stats do not take it out of its base CR (291 bestiary).


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I refer you to the following threads:

Deadliest Bestiary Creatures (Monsters you hate seeing across the table)

Monsters too powerful for their CR


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Succubi. They're a "challenging" encounter for an APL 6 party, but the save DCs for their Charm Monster and Dominate abilities are sky-high.

A level 6 cleric with an 18 Wisdom would have a Will save of +9. That's not bad, but it'd still take a 14+ on the die to save against the DC 23 dominate person -- meaning a PC who's supposed to be GOOD at will saves has a 65% chance of failing that save. Compare to the poor fighter, who is likely to be a good bit lower than that even if he diligently took Iron Will and didn't dump Wisdom.

Of course, a succubus only gets to Dominate once per day. But she can use Charm Monster and Suggestion at will, which is almost as good, and has a DC of 22, so there's a very good chance you will soon believe wholeheartedly that this lady is your trusted friend and ally, whom you should probably help if she asks you to do something reasonable. And her Bluff skill is ridiculous, so she can make some truly outrageous things seem like a terrific idea.

But suppose you saw them coming, and had Protection from Evil running on the party. Hooray, she can't curdle your brains! But she has ethereal jaunt and greater teleport at will, so really all she has to do is make a tactical withdrawal, wait a few minutes for the spell to wear off, and then come back and curdle your brains all she wants. It'd take Dimensional Anchor -- a 5th level spell that level 6 PCs don't generally have access to -- to actually corner a succubus.

And if you DID manage somehow, as a sixth level party, to confront a succubus with both Protection from Evil and Dimensional Anchor in place, then she's pretty much ... oh wait, she can summon a Babau demon. Babau demons have Dispel Magic at will, and carry spears. So she can summon one (50% chance), directing him to keep spamming Dispel Magic at the PCs, starting with the ones wearing heavy armor, so that she can curdle their brains.

So basically, if you throw a succubus at a level 6 party, they are either going to be REALLY lucky, or they're going to be sock puppets for Team Evil in short order.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Dimensional Anchor is only 4th level. Also, you're leaving out Cloaks of Resistance, which are a must-have, and Stat-Boosting Items, which are the same. I'd expect a Cleric of 6th level to have another +2 Will Save from some combination of those and thus more like +11. Still not great odds, just noting.

And monsters being able to escape doesn't meaningfully raise their CR. You still win the encounter in that case, after all. It makes thyem annoying, but not more powerful per se.

The Succubus is indeed a nasty CR 7, I'm just pointing out they aren't quite as nasty as you're implying.


Adding the Young template to a creature with a save-or-die attack can produce an under-CR encounter.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
richard develyn wrote:

I realise that. I just thought the first 1/2 CR from the non-key class should be rounded up to 1 - as an opinion :-)

Richard

I think we are talking past each other.

Are you saying that is a rule or "how you would do it"?

PS: Even if you say it is a rule I won't keep the debate going since. I am just curious. :)

:-)

Just the latter - how I would do it.

Richard

Dark Archive

Incidentally, isn't the reason that monsters with high DCs on mind controlling stuff like charm and dominate don't get high CRs because Protection From Evil / Magic Circle Against Evil totally trumps these abilities?

Richard


richard develyn wrote:

Incidentally, isn't the reason that monsters with high DCs on mind controlling stuff like charm and dominate don't get high CRs because Protection From Evil / Magic Circle Against Evil totally trumps these abilities?

Richard

It is because they are not really made for combat. The succubus does not do a lot of damage. It can dominate one person, and try to charm the others, but with charm person you need an opposed charisma check for many things, and it does not stop regarding the party as its friends.

Basically if one of your friends told you to kill another friend you would likely not do it. Now if they can get you alone and start getting you to kiss them you are in trouble.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
Now if they can get you alone and start getting you to kiss them you are in trouble.

I know just what you mean.

Richard


5 people marked this as a favorite.
wraithstrike wrote:
... Now if they can get you alone and start getting you to kiss them you are in trouble.

I knew a girl like that once.

I'm still in trouble.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
richard develyn wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
Now if they can get you alone and start getting you to kiss them you are in trouble.

I know just what you mean.

Richard

Whatever you do, Avoid the Grapple.

Or not. It's really up to you.

As for dangerous beasties, I find Canopy Creepers to be highly dangerous. Especially to squishy or low strength characters. Not to mention a reach of 100 feet.
Yes, you read that right. 100 ft.


Gricks have DR that's way out of league for a CR 3 opponent, but Doru Divs are even worse. CR 2, DR 10, energy immunities and resistances, flight... they're nasty buggers.


I also forward that Wraiths are absolutely evil to use against PCs. Incorporeal attacks that permanently reduce CON are the sorts of things I wouldn't use against high level PCs. Reducing your HP and Fort saves forever is the sort of thing that will cause a PC to retire after just a few hits.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.

@Sakura: you realize that you can cure the Con drain with a Restoration spell?


Ascalaphus wrote:
@Sakura: you realize that you can cure the Con drain with a Restoration spell?

True, but it is also a CR 5 creature so you would expect to see it maybe several levels before Restoration is a PC option.


I seem to recall a creature called Forge wraith from Eberron in the 3.5 rules... CR 2 or 3, had incorporeality and flight and several strong defenses, not to mention Con drain touch and spawn that came into being after 1d4 rounds. Or, otherwise put, a few minutes after this monster finds its first commoner target in a city, there is a rapidly spreading plague of them...

Sovereign Court

Yeah, wraiths at lower levels are pretty rough. Definitely scary for its CR, not disputing that.

But even if you meet one before you can cast Restoration yourself, you can still (assuming you survive) go to a temple to have the spell cast for you. Going back to town to get conditions cleared by a senior cleric is an old D&D trope after all.


I tend to consider things from the perspective of if the PCs can't do it themselves then its too situational to really count on when discussing general scenarios, like this one. That said, yeah, it may be considerably less of an issue if you have an NPC who can heal it, but a massive constitution loss in the middle of a dungeon with no way to fix it on the spot means you are much less likely to make it back anyway.

Sovereign Court

@chaoseffect: it means that the monster design/CR grading makes assumptions about your game world, namely that external healing is available.

Unfortunately, that's something D&D/PF does a lot, for example in material components for spells. A spell like Mnemonic Enhancer that uses squid ink for example, is a bit fussy in a desert setting. There are quite a few spells with ostensibly cheap (in a spell component pouch) components that make such assumptions, which occasionally lead to discussions about the "realism" of them being available in the current campaign.

I say it's unfortunate because it makes it just a little bit harder to use these things in a nonstandard campaign. In the case of the wraiths, those consequences are indeed a bit more serious than something you could overcome with Eschew Components.


Ascalaphus wrote:

@chaoseffect: it means that the monster design/CR grading makes assumptions about your game world, namely that external healing is available.

That's partially level dependent in PF for those assumptions.

For instance the CR 3 allip got changed from drain to damage in the change from 3.5 specifically because they did not expect lower level characters to be able to deal with drain while ability damage can be healed nonmagically by days of recuperation.

Whether the wraith's con drain is reasonable at CR 5 is debatable.


chaoseffect wrote:
I tend to consider things from the perspective of if the PCs can't do it themselves then its too situational to really count on when discussing general scenarios, like this one. That said, yeah, it may be considerably less of an issue if you have an NPC who can heal it, but a massive constitution loss in the middle of a dungeon with no way to fix it on the spot means you are much less likely to make it back anyway.

Somewhere in the range of level 3-4 almost all my PC's are carrying a potion or scroll of restoration. By level 5 I try to have a scroll or potion of all the major condition removals. If I don't need it great. In the long run it didn't cost all that much. But I usually find I use and replace most of them within a few levels.


I feel the "were" monsters tend to be under CR'd especially if you dont have access to silver.


I'd say all imp equivalent outsiders are under CRed.


Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Somewhere in the range of level 3-4 almost all my PC's are carrying a potion or scroll of restoration. By level 5 I try to have a scroll or potion of all the major condition removals. If I don't need it great. In the long run it didn't cost all that much. But I usually find I use and replace most of them within a few levels.

Potions can only be used for first to third level spells and so cannot be used for restoration.

Restoration is a fourth level spell and only on the standard spell list for clerics, paladins, inquisitors, and oracles. A majority of groups will have someone from one of those classes but you are fairly out of luck if your group's healer is a druid, bard, or witch.

A 4th level restoration scroll costs 700 gp for the spell plus 100 gp for the diamond dust component (assuming you don't mind it skipping the ability to remove a permanent negative level to save 900 more gp in diamond dust component).

I wouldn't expect a 3rd level PC to put 800 of his ~3,000 gp (more than a quarter of his resources) into a one shot scroll.

Having scrolls for backup healings is prudent, but I would not say expected for many PCs.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I did a thread about this as far as under-CR'd monsters a bit ago. The link is here.
I'm still of the opinion that Shadows are the worst. Nothing like a surprise round critical hit to kill any non-martial character of any level. Oh, now you're fighting another shadow too...
As far as over-CR'd I think the following are:
All Oozes Pathfinder took the oomph out of oozes for some reason. Maybe its the argument about energy damage not overcoming hardness, or their universal slow speed, or their poor ACs, or their low to hit bonus for their CR. Oozes use to be terrifying, now they are underwhelming at best. There are exceptions (Colour out of Space), but anything capable of speed 30 and a ranged attack laughs at oozes. I wish their attacks resolved as touch attacks.
Gargoyes I think DR is understated for its CR, and the gargoyle is the prime example of this. I'm hard pressed to think of many adventuring groups who by 4th or 5th level not having magic weapons. Sure, they got lots of attacks, but they aren't at a high enough bonus which coupled with their AC, means little threat. They should be able to grab people and carry them off, but the rules say no without extra feats.
Golems (Flesh, Clay Iron) From Create Pit to Grease to Alchemist Fire or simply Power Attack and a two-handed weapon, Golems are too over-CR'd due to its calaculation from DR and its magic immunity. There are too many spells that don't require SR that can single-handedly shut down the creatures, and enough magic items (from Golembane Scarabs to Adamantine Weapons) that their defensive abilities mean little... which makes them slow moving, easily out-witted sluggers whose only hope is to hit with that melee attack. There are many exceptions with the newer ones, but the classic three above just aren't that scary.


Voadam wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:


Somewhere in the range of level 3-4 almost all my PC's are carrying a potion or scroll of restoration. By level 5 I try to have a scroll or potion of all the major condition removals. If I don't need it great. In the long run it didn't cost all that much. But I usually find I use and replace most of them within a few levels.

Potions can only be used for first to third level spells and so cannot be used for restoration.

Restoration is a fourth level spell and only on the standard spell list for clerics, paladins, inquisitors, and oracles. A majority of groups will have someone from one of those classes but you are fairly out of luck if your group's healer is a druid, bard, or witch.

A 4th level restoration scroll costs 700 gp for the spell plus 100 gp for the diamond dust component (assuming you don't mind it skipping the ability to remove a permanent negative level to save 900 more gp in diamond dust component).

I wouldn't expect a 3rd level PC to put 800 of his ~3,000 gp (more than a quarter of his resources) into a one shot scroll.

Having scrolls for backup healings is prudent, but I would not say expected for many PCs.

Yeah, I know it is not expected that everyone will do it. But yes for the first 5 levels, I mostly buy consumable items like that. There is usually someone that can use the scroll or someone that has a sky high UMD (often me).

Many other people say you should buy the +1 weapon first. But I find that I don't actually NEED a +1 weapon all that often. And I have an oil of magic weapon for when I do.
Restoration isn't the first one I get. I usually go oil of magic weapon, weapon blanches (for arrows), lesser restoration, daylight, neutralize poison, remove disease, restoration, remove blindness, ... But that order can change if I have some reason to believe one will be needed earlier.

Yeah, it's kinda expensive early on. But it has been a long time since I've died (or even come close to it) trying to finish an adventure, scenario, module, mission, or job because of some debilitating condition in effect. Most of the guys I know have had it happen several times.

I developed that mindset in the beginning of Carrion Crown. We ended up getting a bunch of conditions and we had no way to get them removed until we completed that part of the AP and could go to a larger town. It was extremely frustrating. Granted it hasn't been as bad in anything since then, but it still happens to others fairly regularly.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Rakshaka wrote:
I did a thread about this as far as under-CR'd monsters a bit ago. The link is here.

Yeah, I remembered that one, as well as this one.

Rakshaka wrote:
I'm still of the opinion that Shadows are the worst. Nothing like a surprise round critical hit to kill any non-martial character of any level. Oh, now you're fighting another shadow too...

It can make for a good story.

The Exchange

Rakshaka wrote:
...All Oozes Pathfinder took the oomph out of oozes for some reason. Maybe its the argument about energy damage not overcoming hardness, or their universal slow speed, or their poor ACs, or their low to hit bonus for their CR. Oozes use to be terrifying, now they are underwhelming at best. There are exceptions (Colour out of Space), but anything capable of speed 30 and a ranged attack laughs at oozes. I wish their attacks resolved as touch attacks...

Back in AD&D days, speed wasn't important since most of them were ambush predators (aside from the scavenging gelatinous cube). Unfortunately, Int - meant that in new editions they couldn't take ranks in Stealth in order to be the suddenly-grabbed-from-the-darkness monsters they used to be.

51 to 100 of 698 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / The most over-CR'ed and under-CR'ed creatures in the bestiaries. All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.