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So, to put this out there now, I am not looking to start a flame war about how this is bad and whatever.
What I looking at is more a legitimate concern about martials and how I think fighters are legitimately bad for the game design. Here is why:
Feats. Or more specifically, feat taxes.
As many posters have pointed out, there are alot of really dumb feat taxes and consistent investment in the same thing just to make it relevent. Examples include:
Vital Strike
Any Combat Manuever Feat
2 weapon Fighting
Whirlwind Attack
I started thinking that the best thing to do would be to collapse many of the redundant "Normal-greater-improved" feats into single feats that scale with BAB but a big problem arose. Fighters. The entire class is just about literally nothing but feats (weapon training is cool but armor training is meh and bravery is the biggest joke of a class ability I have ever seen). When you collapse many of those feats into one feat, you create a few issues:
1) the fighter's extra feats mean less now
2) What the hell is the fighter going to do with all of those feats now???
This creates a problem. In order for fighter's extra feats to really matter, they need feats to be broken up as much as possible (making it harder for other martials to get them so that the fighter feels special about having these feats), but in order for the other martials to be able to be more interesting in combat (i.e. being able to do more than just 1 type of Combat Manuever or full attack), they need more of the redundant feats to be collapsed. This creates the issue in that the figher is actually hurting the other martials by his very existance as a PC class.
What do you guys think about this?
Except thoses "X-Greater-Improved" Feats are the thing that cause problems for every other martial. Most, if not all, could actually be condensed into a single feat that keys off BAB. The problem is that, when you condense down alot of those feats, the fighter doesn't look as cool because now everyone can Trip-Grapple-bullrush-powerattack-vital strike since thier limited feats can buy even more.
As it stands right now, most martials are "Trip-builds" or "Grapple-builds" or "Two-weapon Fighting builds" but lack any diversity in combat outside of that. Fighters (and by some extension Brawlers and Rnagers) are the only guys who can really do a few things at once because of the high feat cost. If you remove the need to buy 3 feats to do 1 thing (i.e. 30% of most peoples' feats), then they can then do 3 things for the same cost. That makes the fighter look kinda less impressive with his wall of feats to buy weapon focus 8 times or something.
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The saddest part is... Feat chains pretty much cheat Fighters out of their main class feature. :/
He's going to buy way more of the badass improved feats.
Trust me, I've experimented with a Fighter rebuild that got 2 bonus combat feats per fighter level. At no point in my experiments up to 15th level did any tester run out of feats they wanted to take.
The problem is that your giving the fighter more feats, but nothing else. To mimic the effects of condensing down feats to match BAB, try giving the other martials more feats, but limit them to comabt feats.
You will quickly see that there would be no point in playing the fighter. Condensing down combat feats is more akin to giving people more feats because the "feat slots" that they are normally using to buy "Greater X" and "Improved X" is now free, letting them get other feats instead.
Actually, if feats did scale with BAB, were more useful and didn't have awful prerequisites, each bonus feat would be worth more, not less. So Fighters would become relatively stronger (and much better balanced, IMHO) compared to other classes.
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Yes fighters are holding back martials.
There is an expectation that the no magic, no ki warrior is something that should be on par with ki-warriors, supernatural-rage warriors, magic-warriors, and divine-infused warriors.
Having that make sense necessitates holding everyone back. Take the manga Fairy Tale, anyone worth their crap can use magic, even the dump meat-heads. Mundanes were mooks without super gear. That is the established mentality so no one complains that mundanes should be able to do things.
The fighter prevents that mentality. Pretending that mundanes should keep up without tons of money (Batman) is what bring PF down to marvel level instead of DC level.
My thought would be to just make all the "Improved-Greater" feats give you the bonuses as soon as you hit the BAB pre-req for the normal feat.
You may want to revise that statement. Marvel has numerous badasses on par with DC's top tier, including the Hulk and Thor.
Marvel just has a wider spread of popular characters at low power levels (Such as Spiderman and the X-men and Black Widow and Hawkeye such)
I think it's apt
Captain America is a valuable team member next to thor, iron-man, and the hulk. He's basically a fighter. Hawkeye is an archer. And Black Widow is a rogue.
In DC the mundane League founders either have an artifact ring legacy weapon or is a rogue with so much money that he plays like a wizard.
You may want to revise that statement. Marvel has numerous badasses on par with DC's top tier, including the Hulk and Thor.
Marvel just has a wider spread of popular characters at low power levels (Such as Spiderman and the X-men and Black Widow and Hawkeye such)
Thor has magic. Closest to a Paladin with ability to shoot lightning.
Hulk is like a Barbarian but he has sonic clap attack, ground pound ability (better than the Rage power), etc.
X-Men? Wolverine is unkillable. He survived the sun!
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Don't you have a thousand other threads to discuss this?
Batman is not a Rogue... He is a Batman, the most overpowered class ever. And he has the WBL of a 20th level character... That is balanced by other character either having an artifact, belonging to overpowered races or having added some weird template to them.
Batman is not a Rogue... He is a Batman, the most overpowered class ever. And he has the WBL of a 20th level character... That is balanced by other character either having an artifact, belonging to overpowered races or having added some weird template to them.
He's a rogue that started with 18 in every stat and has SO much money he can do whatever he wants. He is FAR beyond level 20 WLB.
He's some sort of Monk/Rogue/Ninja/Ranger/Fighter gestalt at the very least. He certainly has full BAB and a good Will save.
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He's some sort of Monk/Rogue/Ninja/Ranger/Fighter gestalt at the very least. He certainly has full BAB and a good Will save.
He rarely has to fight things his level.
Hard Minded, a good wisdom, and great gear strike me as all he needs.
You know what... I just remembered Batman discussions don't go anywhere in these forums, so... Whatever.
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He's going to buy way more of the badass improved feats.
Trust me, I've experimented with a Fighter rebuild that got 2 bonus combat feats per fighter level. At no point in my experiments up to 15th level did any tester run out of feats they wanted to take.
Hmm I'd give a fighter a whirl if that houserule was in place.
I would hope that the developers wouldn't proceed from the fact that the fighter gets tons of bonus feats to the conclusion that there need to be very long feat chains. The point of fighters getting tons of feats is so that they can specialize in one area, without loosing too much versatility.
I would expect that long feat chains result more from characters receiving more feats in Pathfinder, and designers wanting to tie powerful new effects into preexisting feat chains to try and balance them against preexisting feats.
Trust me, I've experimented with a Fighter rebuild that got 2 bonus combat feats per fighter level. At no point in my experiments up to 15th level did any tester run out of feats they wanted to take.
So, they got everything a fighter normally gets, PLUS 2 extra combat feats per level? Or did the combat feats replace anything, like the bonus feats they already get?
I'm normally much more in the camp of needing to compress feat chains down to feats that scale with BAB, but I could see this doing nearly the same thing...except it only eliminates the feat chain tax foolishness for fighters. Maybe it SHOULD only eliminate the tax for fighters? Interesting.
The Talented Fighter from SGG I think adds a lot of options to the class beyond just feats. Combine that with the compressed combat feats and the class really opens up a lot.
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I think somebody already said this, but it deserves to be reiterated: Condensing the feats chains to scaling feats would benefit the other martials, but it would benefit the Fighter in that it would make the Fighter what it should be.
Since the Fighter is still getting feats every level, he could be the pinnacle performer in every single fighting style there is. Whereas a Paladin/Barbarian/Cavalier/whatever would become more powerful in their chosen style, the Fighter could outperform them in ALL styles. He could specialize in Archery, TWF, BFS, Sword & Board, and Mounted Combat. Sure, the Cavalier atop his mount might outperform the fighter slightly still, but if those ponies bite the dust, or they're entering a cramped dungeon, the fighter will whip out his Greatsword or Longbow and embarrass the Cavalier easily.
There's still the opening for them to take even more condensed chains than others. I know there's a limit to how much you can do at a time, but you can rack up a lot of options at least.
I have to agree with others. If you compress feats to get rid of feat chains the power of those feats increase as since the fighter gets more feats than any other class that means they are better.
This is good theory analysis but it's never going to happen in this version of Pathfinder as it's huge core rules change. It's not just the feat chains but then you need to scale up other feats that don't have improved/greater versions. This is something that could be done as house rules or in new version of the game.
Personally I think phasing the fighter out is the better way. Sure you can play one but as the new classes do a better job of it the fighter might not see much play beyond and NPC. I think this is fine.
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I agree that the Feat chains should be condensed. They get to long but looking at video games (i know your going to lynch me) they do the same thing with long feat chains.
This as others have said would allow fighters to go further into what they specialize in, feats, they should have the most feats and this should allow them to do heroic deeds with a weapon in hand.
It is a system based on the fact of if we can't do it in real life then we make it OP, since there are people in real life can do cool things with weapons the whole system doesn't really support it. It was a system to boost the Magic and drop the mundane, this isn't always a bad thing as really who wants to play the "pleb." I think Paizo and WoTC forgot that fighters are special and can do amazing feats, they should benefit not from long feat chains and taxes but from being able to charge and trip one guy, sunder the shield of another and push a guy off his feet into a group of guys charging in.
all in all I vote for feat consolidation.
You may want to revise that statement. Marvel has numerous badasses on par with DC's top tier, including the Hulk and Thor.
Marvel just has a wider spread of popular characters at low power levels (Such as Spiderman and the X-men and Black Widow and Hawkeye such)
Not sure I'd call Spider-Man "low power". He can lift and throw a semi truck, dodge bullets at point blank range, and has a danger sense that makes him almost impossible to hit unless you're a speedster.
He's not exactly a lightweight even if he's not The Hulk.
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I now want this in my game and to play a fighter. This would make combat maneuvers rock and give fighters so many options in a fight
I that case, you might be interested in this.
I've been working on condensed feat chains, particularly the ones around maneuvers.
It also helps out low-level rogues a bunch by making Weapon Finesse free and easing the prerequisites for Improved Feint and Gang Up.
You may want to revise that statement. Marvel has numerous badasses on par with DC's top tier, including the Hulk and Thor.
Marvel just has a wider spread of popular characters at low power levels (Such as Spiderman and the X-men and Black Widow and Hawkeye such)
Not sure I'd call Spider-Man "low power". He can lift and throw a semi truck, dodge bullets at point blank range, and has a danger sense that makes him almost impossible to hit unless you're a speedster.
He's not exactly a lightweight even if he's not The Hulk.
Funny thing about that... Spiderman actually beat the hulk... ish...
Turns out having spidey senses and effectively being a sentient Flubber helps a lot..
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The saddest part is... Feat chains pretty much cheat Fighters out of their main class feature. :/
Furthermore, every time there is a feat chain that fighters can use better than plenty of other classes, fighters become dip classes, the feat gets complained about, and then gets nerfed to oblivion. The last feat chain I remember in which all of the feats synergized with each other, all of them were worth taking, and did something that was interesting[I.E. not +x attack, +x damage, +x AC, +x saves, etc], it was Crane Wing. And we all remember how that turned out.
1) the fighter's extra feats mean less now
2) What the hell is the fighter going to do with all of those feats now???
1) False.
2) Do everything.
You'll have fighters that can Vital Strike, Feint, Grapple, Trip, Sunder, shoot an absurd number of arrows accurately, Two Weapon Fight, Power Attack, etc, etc.
What's more is that they'll actually have feats left over to do out of combat things too and bolster their saves and craft their own magical weapons and armor and wondrous items, etc, etc.
The only class this could potentially hurt (and not by much) would be the ranger who specifically get certain feats while dodging their pre-reqs.
Even then a lot of Ranger Combat Style Feats get to ignore BaB/Level/Stat prereqs as well, so there's that to.
Generally the Feats in a Style don't have a bunch of other Feat prereqs anyway.
2) Do everything.
You'll have fighters that can Vital Strike, Feint, Grapple, Trip, Sunder, shoot an absurd number of arrows accurately, Two Weapon Fight, Power Attack, etc, etc.
What's more is that they'll actually have feats left over to do out of combat things too and bolster their saves and craft their own magical weapons and armor and wondrous items, etc, etc.
Really? How many feats is that again? They can do all of that at once and more? I don't think they really have to, but I'm thinking that's a few more feats than they have.
Feat chains hurt everyone imo. Its bad if he's the only one that can take single chain for a weapon style and have some left over, and he might be the class most in need because of his lack of skill points and god awful saves.
I like the idea of condensing the feat chains and will be taking a close look at the two other threads linked. This is something that has been of much interest to me recently, so the topic is welcome. Thanks for this!
(On another note, maybe the comic character comparisons should be taken to another thread, as they really are not on-topic? It's like there are two entirely different discussions going on here, only one relevant to the OP.)
2) Do everything.
You'll have fighters that can Vital Strike, Feint, Grapple, Trip, Sunder, shoot an absurd number of arrows accurately, Two Weapon Fight, Power Attack, etc, etc.
What's more is that they'll actually have feats left over to do out of combat things too and bolster their saves and craft their own magical weapons and armor and wondrous items, etc, etc.
Really? How many feats is that again? They can do all of that at once and more? I don't think they really have to, but I'm thinking that's a few more feats than they have.
Feat chains hurt everyone imo. Its bad if he's the only one that can take single chain for a weapon style and have some left over, and he might be the class most in need because of his lack of skill points and god awful saves.
That what I mean, by removing the chains you'd have fighters that could do a huge bunch of stuff not just a few things really well.
I think you misread my statement. I meant that removing feat chains will not hurt fighters in the slightest. If anything it will be a massive boon.
2) Do everything.
You'll have fighters that can Vital Strike, Feint, Grapple, Trip, Sunder, shoot an absurd number of arrows accurately, Two Weapon Fight, Power Attack, etc, etc.
What's more is that they'll actually have feats left over to do out of combat things too and bolster their saves and craft their own magical weapons and armor and wondrous items, etc, etc.
Really? How many feats is that again? They can do all of that at once and more? I don't think they really have to, but I'm thinking that's a few more feats than they have.
Feat chains hurt everyone imo. Its bad if he's the only one that can take single chain for a weapon style and have some left over, and he might be the class most in need because of his lack of skill points and god awful saves.
I believe what he's saying is that's what Fighters will be able to do IF they get rid of Feat chains (and the person he was replying to said removing chains would hurt the Fighter).
Edit: Missed it by 30 seconds exactly.
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Who thinks removing chains would hurt the fighter?
That doesn't even make sense. Even if all martials got buff, and the plethora of available feats trivialized the fighter's feats as excessive, removing the chains still only helps the fighter.
The game is about defeating encounters not pissing contests with party members.
I believe what he's saying is that's what Fighters will be able to do IF they get rid of Feat chains (and the person he was replying to said removing chains would hurt the Fighter).
Yarr, just figured that out. Hard to tell with selective quotes.
The saddest part is... Feat chains pretty much cheat Fighters out of their main class feature. :/Furthermore, every time there is a feat chain that fighters can use better than plenty of other classes, fighters become dip classes, the feat gets complained about, and then gets nerfed to oblivion. The last feat chain I remember in which all of the feats synergized with each other, all of them were worth taking, and did something that was interesting[I.E. not +x attack, +x damage, +x AC, +x saves, etc], it was Crane Wing. And we all remember how that turned out.
Technically Crane Wing was due to Master of Many Styles dipping, not fighter dipping