Also, we've edited the sticky post to include some of the points addressed in my response post, so it's easier for people to spot them when they get to this thread.Thank you so much for the consideration, I can't wait to see the end result.
So all the Hunter does himself is flank and buff (casting defensively)? That is actually not terrible. Does the Hunter really get anything that makes him significantly better at that than the druid? For instance: could you just switch out spell focus for your two teamwork feats and be the same character with more spellcasting ability? (your buffs don't require saves, after all).Well yes, you are a mage and the Animal companion is like your best friend eidolon. While he does solid damage, albeit not as great as many other classes and really depends on the animal you pick, and you still have a turn to lay down buffs for your party/AC or debuffs at your enemies. Always be flanking, you are on the front lines, you and your animal companion are a single machine.
Which is why I would like to see an animal companion buff of some sort. I could switch out spell focus, but I didn't see anything in the teamwork feats that was really enticing, which is why I love that they are considering putting more in. It'd be a solid decision. The spell focus decision was to lay down debuffs on your enemies so that your AC could then have an easier job. Although, now that I think about it, this class could be useful (not how I build it) to take crafting feats, like Scribe Scroll and potions in order to help out your team while you let your AC take point of an enemy.
The difference in my opinion between a Hunter and a Druid, from fluff reasons and what I understand, is that Druids are all about nature as a whole. They get along with plants, animals, bugs, you name it, which is why Druids can even have trees as animal companions. Hunters, on the other hand, have a close bond to a single animal which is the reason why they...
I thematically understand the difference but my point about dropping spell focus was that a Druid could drop your spell focus feats, pick up two teamwork feats, and do the job your hunter is doing now better than the hunter does (heck, there are archetypes that drop wildshape and get more stuff too, right?). I mean: there is nothing to stop a druid from building around an animal companion.
More teamwork feats would help to assuage my concerns by some amount though.
Edit: Oversight on my part! The hypothetical druid would not convey the use of those teamwork feats to the companion. I still suspect that Hunter is underpowered compared to the Druid at the "animal companion focused" build if only because it will get more powerful buffs for the animal companion sooner (sometimes in the form of action economy efficient quicked spells)
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*sigh* I accidentally closed the wrong tab on my wall of text.
I played a level 10 Hunter earlier today in a small session of what will be a brief ongoing game (maybe 4 sessions long.)
Human Hunter with initial stats 18 / 14 / 10 / 13 / 12 / 10 after racial modifiers on a 20 point buy. Boy was I MAD. Probably could have dropped the 14 in DEX to a 13 and picked up a 12 in con, but I was rushed for character creation time. For my two stat boosts I raised my wisdom both times to end up at a 14 (so I could cast ALL my spells.)
I decided I would use Felling Smash, Tandem Trip (Teamwork), and Outflank (Teamwork) to make a character who trips the hell out of any enemy while outputting a decent amount of damage (nothing obscene.) At level 11 I would pick up Greater Trip.
Thanks to the bonus teamwork feats I was able to accomplish this with one teamwork feat to spare (I took Stealth synergy as my last one in case you were wondering, mostly for thematic-ness.) Were that I had a third Ally who was willing to take a teamwork feat, we probably would have replaced that with Gang-Up.
My animal companion was a small cat named Boskow. He was trip focused, and took no archetypes. If I could have taken Gang-Up successfully then he would have been a Bodyguard.
Aaaaaanyways, the game played out well and I was pretty effective (group was myself, a very angry Barbarian, and a Wizard.) Interestingly Animal Aspect was incredibly strong. I think its mostly because I started out at a higher level. But 4 encounters per day (what most modules and even DM's in my experience design for) means that I can forgo buying a Belt of Physical Might (40k gold) and instead get other stuff. Thanks to this I was able to grab a +3 Cloak of Resists, +2 Keen Fauchard, +3 armor, +2 Ring of Protection, and a +2 Amulet of Natural Armor, and still have 10k gold left to play around with (I picked up +2 to hit/damage for my companion with that in addition to some potions.)
Animal Aspect is deceptively strong because it is, in the worst of worst cases, trading off 1 or 2 fights a day of having your BoPM for having a BoPM for yourself AND your companion the rest of the time, and a bunch of spare cash to kit yourself out with. Granted, at level 4 you're pretty much assured to have 2 fights a day where you dont get your +2 stat boost, but during those fights you're 4k gold up. It's an interesting tradeoff. I don't understand the people on these boards who think the ability is worthless because your stat boosts can be replicated by very expensive items. At level 8 it is impossible to have a BoPM +4, so you're ahead of your ENTIRE wealth by level IN ADDITION to having that for your companion, IN ADDITION to being up on gold on whomever has had to spend money on a belt or headband. It's a subtle but massive power spike.
What I didn't enjoy was that the rest of my abilities were just circumstantial fluff. Woodland Stride? Swift Tracker? Boooooring. That means that as I level all I'm really getting is more of the same stuff per day outside of my spells. Granted that may be enough to make the class engaging as you go along, but it's still a point I'm worried about. Consider going from 4'th to 5'th level. I dont get any new attacks, or new saves, I get 1 more use per day of my animal aspect ability (which is strong, but a very passive kind of effect,) and I get one extra second level spell per day. I don't actually get anything new, I just get more of what I already had. It isn't a dead level, but it sure as hell doesn't feel like one thats very alive.
Now... about spells. I chose to limit myself to spells which were buffs, or only required SR. I did this because a 14 wisdom isn't going to scare anybody. Thankfully the druid spell list is hilarious, and among my favorite thing in 3.PF. My prep'd spell consisted of things like Aspect of the Bear (+2 to trips), Liberating Command, Faerie Fire, Wind Wall, Sleet Storm, and Atavism (I considered Freedom of Movement, but honestly I felt both were just a worthy of the slot.) If I got prior warning on combat I'd buff, opening move was generally to control somehow (Faerie Fire, Wind Wall, Sleet Storm), and then trip-drop anything that wasn't controlled. My damage was pretty low (1d10+23) (Bosko added a bit more here, forget his numbers of the top of my head,) but once something dropped to the ground it wasn't getting back up, and the disparity between attack (with super flanking bonuses) and enemy AC (with the prone penalty) was just too much to deal with, and Bosko's multiple attacks really pushed the damage into 'pretty damn good' range.
Overall the experience was pretty fun. I enjoyed the class, the flavor, and felt like I was playing different than I would have as either a druid or a ranger (both of which I play often.) I was more in your face than the druid (though I usually play caster type druids,) but not afraid to step back and try to control the field some like I would be on a ranger. It's an interesting niche, and I think it worked really well because our party was only 3 people.
All I really worry about is how the class feels as its leveling. So much of it seems to just be 'take another use of some of your stuff, and keep doing what you're doing.' Leveling up, IMHO, should be about gaining options. Most of this classes levels don't really give me that feeling. You pretty much lock yourself into one playstyle, and just get better at doing your one thing. It's not as dynamic as something like a Ranger where I can switch hit, or cast some spells, or whatever else. It's certainly not liek druid where I'm constantly getting new spell levels and turning into more crazy things. It feels more like a gestalt caster // melee than an actual hybrid caster/melee.
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Ahh! I forgot to mention, I made use of Fury's Fall to get +DEX to trip in order to help make up for my not-full-BAB. With +4 STR/DEX on I was able to put up +21 to trip. Not sure how numbers USUALLY look around level 10, but it felt pretty good.
If anyone wants my full feat list or anything let me know. It starts with Combat Expertise and EWP(Fauchard) and ends with me laughing.
Instead of going martial I decided to build the Hunter as a pure spellcaster with buffs/debuffs while the Animal Companion deals damage, which is what I think this class wants to achieve
Hunter
** spoiler omitted **Animal Companion
** spoiler omitted **Technique
** spoiler omitted **It's not the most optimized build ever, but it works as I think Hunters want to work. What I really found bad in this build was that the Animal Companions don't have too many Feats themselves and fall really quickly compared to other classes features. Let the Hunter be able to give them...
So all the Hunter does himself is flank and buff (casting defensively)? That is actually not terrible. Does the Hunter really get anything that makes him significantly better at that than the druid? For instance: could you just switch out spell focus for your two teamwork feats and be the same character with more spellcasting ability? (your buffs don't require saves, after all).
Like I said earlier: I really wish the Hunter could buff himself and his animal companion with something other than enhancement bonuses (which are just so easy to get with normal druid spellcasting and/or magic items). What you (we?) are describing sounds like a bard with an animal companion and only spell resources as buffs. Which maybe works? I dunno.
It reallllyyy doesn't work.
As it's written atm it feels more like an NPC class. I did a bit of playtesting today with a 6th level Hunter going along with a Ranger, Wizard, and Evangelist cleric.
I focused on a Control/Tanking sort of build and used three consecutive encounters in outdoor environments. First against a group of orc warriors (mercenaries of a defeated army CR6) followed by some hobgoblin archers supported by a Bugbear Anti-Paladin (CR7) and finishing off with a Hobgoblin Cavalier supported by some Hobgoblin archers and a handful of orc warriors (CR8).
Human Hunter 6th.
Str: 18
Dex: 12
Con: 14
Int: 7
Wis: 16
Cha: 10
Feats:
Combat Reflexes
Improved Initiative
Power Attack
Paired Opportunist
Cornugon Smash
Outflank
Spells Memmed 5/3: Faerie Fire, Entangle x2, Magic Fang, Longstrider/ Barkskin, Stonecall x2
Animal Companion was a Big Cat (Lion).
So, overall the hunter performed underwhelmingly. The ranger ended up with a higher tracking score against the gobbos (favored enemy+terrain)granted outside this element the ranger would have one less survival score than the hunter due to a slightly higher wisdom.
AC more or less favored the Ranger since they had higher dexterity scores.
In terms of combat the Hunter pretty much did as expected He would lay down a battlefieled control spell and between him and his cat they would funnel and hold down enemies for the others to kill one by one either via archery or polearm (both cleric and ranger use polearms).
Animal Focus was pretty much a wash. The only time it was worth digging up was for the Snake aspect during the final fight as the extra boost to AoO's combined well with an Enlarge person to keep the orc warriors in check. The enhancement bonuses to stats were nigh pointless to try since the party wizard could give an equivalent bonus for nearly half as long as Animal focus lasts with a touch or for 6 times longer with a 2nd level spell.
Overall it felt like a druid who is missing all of his neat abiltities and was given two weak abilities to make up for the loss. I made an equivalent druid (keeping same feats and strats replacing cornugon smash for natural spell) and ended up with a character who ended up hitting harder (due to buffs that can affect it and wildshape) without losing any of the "tankiness" associated with the original hunter. Moreover the companion never really loses out on anything since Animal focus rarely made any difference and the teamwork feats were situational to the point where they rarely made a large effect.
I'm not even sure where Ranger comes into this class at all.
Some thoughts on bringing it to par:
Based on the edited post at least the duration issue is being addressed to make it more "rage" or "bardic performance like".
A higher level option for this ability might be allowing it to affect multiple animal companions, not just those of the hunter but other animals as well. This makes a ratehr good support option to work with druids, summoners who work mainly in animals but also rangers, and other cavaliers.
Combat styles such as the ranger has would go a long way to making the class stronger as well.
The specific aspects can be more powerful. The choices between weak buffs and circumstantial bonuses to certain stats and rolls can be melded together to make a buff worth using over. The magic belts that combine physical stats with certain thematic abilities might be a good place to crib specific ideas from.
If Combat Styles are unwelcome than we most certainly need favored enemy options. Favored enemy is what helps evoke the hunter imagery in the ranger.
I don't really think a buff in the pet specifically will help the class. However, I do believe that allowing the pet to share more abilities of the class can help it feel more like a pet class. For example with Woodland Stride it's easy for a pet to get left behind since the hunter will move unhindered whereas the pet will lag behind. Likewise that's the same for certain spells as well. So maybe melding the Improved Share Spells feat into the class at an early level would go a good way towards making the class a bit more of what it's meant to be
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I absolutely love the fact that this class gets scythes. They are one of my favorite weapons in the game and the more classes that can use them the better!
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I love this build. I created a 3.5 prestige class very similar to this class a few years ago. I had a lot of fun and success with the class. I hope others find the same joy I had with my old character.
A few tips I could offer for anyone attempting to play test this class.
PC and companion need to fight as one. It doesn't matter if your both melee or melee / Ranged. Concentrate on the same target. Don’t split your team up.
Both melee; Flank early and often. Make sure your companion has a trip or similar ability to take advantage of. it’s a blast to “kick a guy when he’s down”.
Melee / Ranged; Don’t let your companion trip your foe, its harder to hit them afterwards from a distance. Make sure with this build that you companion is as defensively set as possible; toughness, improved natural armor, barding, remember he’s on the front lines all alone basically.
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Summarizing some thoughts from my blog
There's not enough ranger in the hunter.
I'd prefer it with better BAB and HD but far fewer spells.
The hunter’s medium spellcasting keeps the druidic flavour, but weakens the overall class concept: the druid already fills the gap of the spellcasting pet class. A druid with a bow wouldn't be *that* different from a hunter.
(Most rangers I have seen in play want fewer spells, not more. The skirmisher ranger seems to have been a very popular choice.)
One fixable problem with the class is that it’s limited in animal companions. Technically the only legal optionals are the Animal Choices in the Core Rulebook, and it even gives a page reference. There are lots of interesting animals in later books and it’s a shame to exclude those options.
Summarizing some thoughts from my blog
There's not enough ranger in the hunter.
I'd prefer it with better BAB and HD but far fewer spells.
The hunter’s medium spellcasting keeps the druidic flavour, but weakens the overall class concept: the druid already fills the gap of the spellcasting pet class. A druid with a bow wouldn't be *that* different from a hunter.
(Most rangers I have seen in play want fewer spells, not more. The skirmisher ranger seems to have been a very popular choice.)One fixable problem with the class is that it’s limited in animal companions. Technically the only legal optionals are the Animal Choices in the Core Rulebook, and it even gives a page reference. There are lots of interesting animals in later books and it’s a shame to exclude those options.
Check the first post, Hunters can gain any animal companion a druid can.
SKR is on record saying that was simply how it refereced that they used the animal companion list. Because the Druid entry lists a page reference and the Hunter has to reference that page.
I was curious, if anyone had tried i think it is Lookout and the charge at the same time teamwork feats. I thought it would make for good synergy especially given your animal might beat you on initiative. You could throw in the share reflex saves teamwrok feat later.
Anyhow No idea how useful this stuff is but its what i thought of when people were saying how bad teamwork feats are.
I fail to see how team work Archer feats is going to help. Wouldn't it be better if it could choose between team work feats or Combat style feat.
3/4 BAB and 6/9 caster doesn’t have to be bad, but face it, the druid gets the same pet, is a full caster (can use spells to buff or heal pet) and can wild-shape. That would make this class a nerfed druid that keeps its pet and get some teamwork feats.
I fail to see how team work Archer feats is going to help. Wouldn't it be better if it could choose between team work feats or Combat style feat.
3/4 BAB and 6/9 caster doesn’t have to be bad, but face it, the druid gets the same pet, is a full caster (can use spells to buff or heal pet) and can wild-shape. That would make this class a nerfed druid that keeps its pet and get some teamwork feats.
Oh but don't forget the limited use ability that grants you a whole +2 enhancement bonus for nearly 8 levels and lasts a minute.
Design Manager
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One thing I want to bring up with this class.
When Teamwork were feats were first introduced, they were brought out hand in hand with two classes that should have been capable of showcasing them, the Cavalier and the Inquisitor. Then decisions which I believe to be poor but am willing to be proven wrong about were made, and the Cavalier was given a ridiculous restriction that prevented him from sharing Teamwork he gained by means other than Tactician until 17th level, on the far side or completely outside of most game play. That was frustrating but, okay , at least someone is watching to make sure that Teamwork feats are being tailored to complement the classes designed to showcase them, right? Unfortunately, not the case. There was some correlation between Teamwork feat pre-reqs and when the classes that use could gain them in APG, almost none at all in subsequent books (Coordinated Charge is one of my favorite examples of this. It's stupid that a Cavalier who dips a single level of pretty much any other Full BAB class to delay acquiring Greater Tactician by one level will be so much more effective over the next 9 levels of play).
To my point- Hunter is going to be focused on sharing Teamwork feats with your Animal Companion. I'm down with that. Please, please ensure that these new Teamwork feats have pre-reqs that actually align with the levels that this and other classes that will be using them would want to acquire them.
i.e. The Inquisitor and the Hunter acquire their bonus feats at 3,6,9 etc. and the Cavalier gets his at 1,9, and 17. Please stop making Teamwork feats with Prereqs like BAB +10, or 5 ranks in random skill. Having to take a 10th level feat at 12th or 17th level because that's when it jives with my progression is frustrating.
Oh but don't forget the limited use ability that grants you a whole +2 enhancement bonus for nearly 8 levels and lasts a minute.
Yes, this is why I suggested a morale bonus instead. That prevents barbarian rage from stacking with it and isn't as powerful as a bardic inspire courage of the same level.
Really, a +1 to either AC (Dex), attack/damage (Str) or +lvl HP (con) isn't terribly overpowered at lower levels.
Think for a moment how powerful a 3rd level character would be if Barbarian 1 / alchemist 1 / hunter 1. You can pull off 30 strength for a full minute (mutagen lasts longer). The gods help you enemies if you are running a party similar to this AND have a skald to buff everyone.
I definitely see how there is a narrow space to try to put the Hunter into.
3/4 BAB, full AC, and 6th level casting feels like an under strength druid.
If we kick it up to full BAB, it starts feeling like an over powered ranger.
Since the AC is supposed to be a core element of the class, maybe an AC buff (like the Gigantic Steed ability, from Mammoth Rider)?
As I mentioned earlier, I agree that we could really use more ranged-oriented teamwork feats (for the hunter in particular, but it would also benefit the inquisitor and cavalier), and I'll make sure we get some for the book. I'll talk to Jason about getting some added to the official playtest, too, as that would be very valuable info for evaluating the hunter-as-written.
Edit:
Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.
I think this (one Archer per party) is one of the most problematic features of the teamwork feat mechanics. This is one reason that makes The Preacher Inqvisitor Archetype so great for Archers (or for anyone not likinhg team work feats). I wish I knew how to solve this problem, but yuo might want to look at this:
"The hunter’s and companion’s positioning and actions must still meet the prerequisites listed in the teamwork feat for them to receive the listed
bonus."
Other stuff:
Again: Give it trapfindning so we have more trap experts to choose from.
More Animal Focus to choose from would be cool.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.
Has anyone playtested how two hunters work together especially using the teamwork feats? I think that might be were they would shine.
Hunters work only if played with Another Hunter is really a prof of it being a bad class.
Most of my concerns about this class have kinda already been addressed, so I don't really have much to add.
I do still have concerns about how the Hunter is supposed to go on the offense.
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.
As-is, I really feel like this is the "Poor-man's Druid." You get some self-buffs (but they're worse than Wild Shape), you get some woodland tricks (that are totally comparable to what a Druid will get), you get some Druid spell-casting (but you get it slower and not as much), and you get a Druid pet that is exactly equal.
And for comparing to a Ranger... I can't. The Hunter is a 3/4ths BAB class with no self-buffs except late-access Druid spells (which tend to be worse at self-buffing than the other side of Divine). Rangers are capable of going on the offense - Hunters just aren't.
I look forward to seeing what the second incarnation of this class looks like, but this first incarnation is so far from the mark that it's kinda "done."
(For what it's worth, I really do like the idea of the Animal Focus stuff. That's definitely an idea worth tweaking - it's just pretty bad in it's current mechanical form.)
I thought to be integrated some of the class features into Animal Focus.
Level: 1st > 2nd > 8th > 15th
Wolf: Scent > Track > Swift Tracker > Scent(30ft)
Frog: Jumper(ARG 231) > add half class level to Swim and Acrobat(jump) check > Swim speed > All-Around Vision
Chameleon: none > add half class level to Stealth check > Camouflage > Hide in Plain Sight
Monkey: none > add half class level to Climb check > Climb Speed > Reach
Has anyone playtested how two hunters work together especially using the teamwork feats? I think that might be were they would shine.
I'm actually doing just that, or have plans to later tonight. More specifically, two hunters, a shaman and a warpriest. The theme? Nature and more nature. Going to be a level 1 run, a level 4 and a level 8 run.
Also planning to run a test on a group of three hunters and one skald.
I definitely see how there is a narrow space to try to put the Hunter into.
3/4 BAB, full AC, and 6th level casting feels like an under strength druid.
If we kick it up to full BAB, it starts feeling like an over powered ranger.
Since the AC is supposed to be a core element of the class, maybe an AC buff (like the Gigantic Steed ability, from Mammoth Rider)?
I want to chime in really quick. I already posted before what the Ranger is giving up by going Hunter - basically everything about the class. There are only TWO features that make it from Ranger to Hunter - Track and Swift Tracker. Ranger is losing out on Favored Enemy and Combat Styles, probably the premier aspect of being a ranger (outside of Terrains and the rest of the abilities).
You cannot honestly tell me that an additional +1 to attack at levels 1, 5, 9, 13, and 17 would make this an overpowered class!
Now, I think it's pretty obvious where the Devs want to go with the Hunter. 6/9 spell progression does not immediately mean that the class needs a 3/4 BaB. Druid is 3/4 with 3 more levels of spell casting, and those levels are powerful. Not to mention they get higher spell levels earlier. It's important that other 3/4 bab 6/9 spells don't set a precedent here as these classes are not all made equal.
After thinking awhile, I have some suggestions for flavor and mechanics that may give some wiggle room with how to play the class.
To address the BaB issue, if a full BaB is not on the table for consideration...:
- Tiger's Grace: The Hunter and Companion receive +1 to attack rolls. This effect increase by +1 at 5th, 9th, 13th, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
- Bear's Ferocity: The Hunter and companion receive +1 to damage rolls. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +4 at 20th).
- Wolf's Insight: Hunter and Companion receive +1 to CMD and CMB rolls. This effect increase by +1 at 5th, 9th, 13th, to a maximum of +5 at 17th level.
- Rhino Hide: The Hunter and Companion receive a +1 to Natural Armor. This bonus increases by +1 at 5th level and every 5 levels thereafter (to a maximum of +4 at 20th).
- Etc...
This would of course be in addition to the Animal Focus or any changes made to Animal Focus.
Just throwing out some suggestions that I think would help. As others have pointed out, it's going to be important to rethink the Teamwork Feats as well. Let's make sure we get the benefit of these while flanking for melee based Hunters.
My 2 cents on balancing this class would be to remove the Animal Focus ability and then give it full BAB progression. Without full BAB this class plays as a nerfed druid.
I like the idea of teamwork feats that you share with your animal companion.
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I created (for the home game I was playing in) a 3.5 prestige class very similar to the new Hunter class.
One thing I did to help off set the Nerfed druid/Ranger feeling of the class was a feature I called "legendary bond".
ledendary bond turns you animal companion from animal to magical beast. The companion still counted as animal in all other regards but it alllowed something special for the class. It offset the character low BAB and hit Die type.
Has the design team looked at options like this to help the hunter class?
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To be honest, I think the problem with the hunter is not that it is so weak compared to the druid, its that the druid is just such a strong class. It has a lot of powerful elements.
I think to provide a hunter a unique fighting "style" more should be focused on the team work angle, the animal focus is one part, spells another, but I would suggest the following:
Improved Spell Sharing - allow spells cast on the Hunter or AC to effect the other without a range limiation, or at least a reasonable one. Expand this effect to more spells so for example a hunter could heal himself and the pet with one spell regardless of distance, buffs would go on both with out worry about staying near each other.
Improved Team work - Both the hunter and pet should get a benefit in addition to team work feats or even better than some when fighting the same target. Having a pet not provide cover to enemies the archer attacks, providing bonuses when they attack the same foe regardless of style or distance, etc..
The idea is that while a Hunter would have fewer spells she is better at buffing his companion with both spells and Animal Focus, and herself. The advantage a hunter has over a ranger is a broader selection of animals and spells, as well as pet level. One feat makes up for the level so there needs to be more to make the AC stand out from both ranger and druid since its the focus of the class.
Shame they didn't update the PDFs.
We decided to take five minutes to update a board post so you have the information immediately (and available in time for the weekend) instead of taking the 1-2 full days to update the InDesign file, send it back through editing, then have the art team create a new PDF, then have the tech team push that PDF onto the website so you could redownload it (which means you wouldn't have this information until Tuesday).
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Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.
There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.
Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.
As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
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I think shapeshifting should not be part of a hunter class. If they wanted a shapeshifter variant they could make a new Druid Archetype that gave up AC and/or some spells for earlier versions of wild shape possibly combined with animal focus or AC like benefits.
Shapeshifting doesn't feel like a hunter thing. Personally i think the animal aspect line is much more there style I could see them preferring those spells over wild shape.
We got to play with a hunter on friday and there are definitely some benefits that came up. He could for example flank with himself by moving up into flanking and letting the pet 5 ft step and full attack. This provided a +2 bonus to hit with just himself, so helps with the accuracy issue. The other thing, esp at lower levels where he could make one attack and his pet a full is moving to providing flank for the pet didn't cost him much but let the pet really go to town.
There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
That would be really cool and it would also help the Inquisitor and Cavalier :D
Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
OK. I agree. Flavor wise shifting class and Hunter doesn't really fit and Shifter class could be some future class.
I really hope you give the trap finding suggestion some thought.
Thanks for replying. Your great!
BTW, the Investigator and Bloodrager are really cool and the new Arcanist is VERY exciting.
Keep up the good work!
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We're playing again today, I might try and convince them to try a lower level build at some point.
In addition to the changing the animal aspect to rounds/day (which I think would be a good move, just be careful about making the class even more MAD,) maybe look into shifting the Second Animal Focus to around 6'th level. That way you get your shifting, which is gold efficient and cool until 6'th level, then you get another +2 or you have a +2 and some skill bonuses (which is ~62% WBL at 6'th.)
If the Animal Aspect is supposed to allow you to have flavor and be less reliant on one of the staples (which I think most people here are using it for.) Then you need to make sure it's an appreciable bonus all the way up. By shifting the second focus down in the tree and keeping the 8'th level greater focus you can spread the power out more, while keeping the 8'th level power spike. You just don't go from, y'know, 4k gold worth of ability to 40k gold worth of ability. Now you're going from 4k to 10k to 40k.
Would it be too much to shift things around and have:
Level 1: Get Animal Aspect
Level 4: Two Aspects
Level 8: Greater Aspects
Level 12: Three Aspects
Level 16: Greaterest Aspects
This way one of the two core abilities, Animal Aspect, is improving every four levels.
Consider the Ranger's Combat Style. It starts at 2, then increases at 6, 10, 14, and at 18. Hunter would then start at 1, increase at 4, 8, 12, 16. The intervals are the same except the first, which helps to maintain a sense of progression as the player levels. You could also consider that Wildshape on the druid has progression at 4,6,8,10,12. Which is a 2 level progression speed that starts up at level 4. This would put the Hunter somewhere inbetween. Faster than one of the iconic ranger abilities, but slower than the druids. This is more in line with the Hybrid idea I think.
AND triple aspects and teamwork feat would be a kickass capstone in PFS play.
Also, I just noticed. Level 16->17 the class is only getting... one extra spell per day. That's it. That level would make a fine zombie. 10->11 as well you're only getting +1 BAB and an extra spell. No new iteratives or levels of spells. Just +1 to them. 16->17 I understand. But 10->11 is PFS level.
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When you guys talk about adding traps are you talking about just adding in "Trapfinding" or adding in bonuses to crafting and DC's like in the uh... one second... Trapper archetype of Ranger? The lower levels of this class are already pretty dense, where would you put that progression?
Getting trapfinding at 1, then traps at 5 like the Trapper, and then a new trap every two levels would get rid of the empty levels at 11 and 17, and make that mostly-empty level I spoke about the other day at level 5 interesting as well...
Still. Is trapfinding core class worthy, or more worthy of something like an archetype?
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Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
I'm playtesting a Hunter right now. We haven't had any combats yet, so I can't say how it stands up to that situation. I can say, however, that building it felt like building a druid with a toned down wildshape, toned down spellcasting, and a standard animal companion.
If I had built the exact same character a a druid, the only differences would have been that instead of a scimitar and dervish dance, he'd have taken multiattack. The Companion would have lost two points of AC from improved natural armor, in order to pick up the teamwork feats he's no longer granted automatically. I would lose a couple of tracking related abilities that made no real difference, and I'd do boatloads of extra damage, because the many natural attacks of wildshape lets me do that. Oh, and Also, I'd get fifth level spells. I probably don't need to explain how big a deal that is.
In short. This character would be better as a druid in all ways, except when it comes to initiative rolls and tracking.
I'm not saying it needs to be as powerful as a druid. Few classes are. But it needs something to prevent me from going "Why am I not playing a druid?" Because what the Hunter delivers is the druid. With parts missing.
Edit: Before someone points it out; I did in fact make full use of the teamwork feats. I took Lookout, Broken Wing Gambit and paired opportunitist, which is probably the optimal feat combination for the hunter at the time being. But even then, a druid could simply pick these feats for herself and her companion, as neither of them are really starved for feats.
That's a great idea for Ultimate Gonzo!
Maybe to make this class different from other classes is to open up the selection of animal companions to magical beasts?
Not all of the magical beast as that would be too much work. But maybe do like you did in the Core rulebook. Add 5-6 magical beast companions templates.
A niche that really isn't filled yet is the Divine pet class. Make this class's focus on buffing the animal companion which does the fighting while the Hunter is back-up/support?
Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
I mentioned my concern that such a teamwork feat may be more powerful than those already on the books. I will point out that I think teamwork feats should be better than a regular feat, since it's technically 2 or more feats. So while it may look like power creep, it's probably good power creep.
My thoughts on the animal focus emulating an ability score that is generally increased with an item is that when a class ability is making up for something else instead of giving something new, that's not a very good ability. You could make the ability "Gain 4,000 gold" and let them buy a belt with it. Same effect.
I would propose making the abilities more like the one that grants scent. One could grant a climb speed, dark vision, skill bonuses are ok. And, maybe you saw this coming, make these things talents. Or panache
Night Owl
When a hunter has at least 1 point of Instinct (Grit) remaining they gain lowlight vision. They may spend 1 point to gain darkvision 30 feet for 1 round(minute?) per level.
Heightened Senses
When a hunter has at least 1 point of Instinct (Grit) remaining they gain a +2/4 bonus to perception checks. They may spend 1 point to gain scent for 1 round(minute?) per level.
Rally
As a swift action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to grant their animal companion an additional move action on their turn.
Fierce animal (Higher level prereq than rally)
As a swift action, a hunter may spend 1 point of Instinct to grant their animal companion an additional attack when making a full attack action on their next turn.
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Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
I mentioned my concern that such a teamwork feat may be more powerful than those already on the books. I will point out that I think teamwork feats should be better than a regular feat, since it's technically 2 or more feats. So while it may look like power creep, it's probably good power creep.
No it is not Power creep.
The whole teamwork feat concept is WEAK.And most feats are either weak or very circumstantial. Outflank and Precise Strike are the exceptions.
No, we need better teamwork feats.
Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
BTW, With 6/9 casting I don't think limited wild-shape would make the class step on the Druids toes. I think it would be cool if it could shape into a bird so it could scout and into the same creature as its animal companion.Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As has been pointed out, the game is designed with the expectation that you will get gear to increase your ability scores, so by not allowing the items to stack with Animal Focus you've got nothing to help you with to-hit/damage/etc. except Druid spells, which you get late.As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
I mentioned my concern that such a teamwork feat may be more powerful than those already on the books. I will point out that I think teamwork feats should be better than a regular feat, since it's technically 2 or more feats. So while it may look like power creep, it's probably good power creep.
No it is not Power creep.
The whole teamwork feat concept is WEAK.
And most feats are either weak or very circumstantial. Outflank and Precise Strike are the exceptions.
No, we need better teamwork feats.
....that's what I said.
Round 2 of RPG SS this year could be: design a pair of teamwork feats! The best ones go in the ACG. :)
My first suggestion would be to give the hunter a favored-enemy-like mechanic to bolster the medium bab without invalidating the ranger by being a full bab 6 level caster. Or maybe like the Guide's focus ability.
Second suggestion is that the animal companion gains the extra teamwork feats that the hunter does as bonus feats. As long as the hunter qualifies, both get it.
My first suggestion would be to give the hunter a favored-enemy-like mechanic to bolster the medium bab without invalidating the ranger by being a full bab 6 level caster. Or maybe like the Guide's focus ability.
Second suggestion is that the animal companion gains the extra teamwork feats that the hunter does as bonus feats. As long as the hunter qualifies, both get it.
What if either the Hunter or Companion meets the prerequisites, or if together they meet the prerequisites, the Hunter can select that Teamwork feat? Too much bookkeeping?
Teamwork Feat Suggestion:
Distracting shot: If you hit a target with a ranged attack while someone with distracting shot is adjacent to your target your ally may make a free trip or disarm against your target.
Mounted coordination: if both mount and rider have this feat: If one does not attack this turn the other gains the benefits of pounce at a -2 to hit on all attacks.
Problem is: I never seen a party with more than one Archer and the Animal Companion is not going to use a range weapon.There's no reason we can't create teamwork feats where one participant is the archer and the other is melee, and the feat provides useful benefits to both.
That'd be cool. I just wish they are better than the average Teamwork Feat (most of them not worth a feat, much less 2).
Regardless, the normal version of this class is not supposed to be a shapeshifter, and I think it can stand on its own as a separate class without borrowing 90% of the druid class (instead of 50-75%).
As a playtester reported from an actual game experience, the animal focus abilities allow you to still have your belt of X and use a focus ability to gain a bonus on an entirely different ability score. Or, just rely on the animal focus ability score bonus and spend that belt money on something else. But I welcome more playtest feedback.
Sean, I really like the flavor of Animal Aspect (it's much more interesting than vanilla Wildshape, IMHO) but it lasts so little it doesn't really allow the character to not buy those items. At best, it lets the player have a "free sample" of some belts before he can actually afford them. It's still a much better deal to spend gold on that gear and have a class feature you can use with it, especially if boosting your attributes is not only temporary, but also costs you an action in combat.
I GMed for an Hunter, Arcanist and Swashbuckler at 1st, 3rd and 6th level earlier today (2 adventures for each level). At 1st and 3rd, Animal Aspect is pretty useful, but just like spells such as Bull's Strength (which Hunters can cast, BTW, making Animal Aspect even less useful), it's not good enough to pass up buying your belt, which lasts all day long and doesn't need any action to activate.
A low-level spell being made obsolete by gear is okay, but having one of your defining class features become useless once you buy appropriate gear that you'd probably buy anyway is a sign that class feature is not worth keeping.
I don't think that even follows. If you gain gear that replaces a particular animal focus benefit, you'd probably just shift it to a different aspect. I think it should be a stronger ability, but I think moving away from enhancement bonuses is a mistake.