might be cool.
one of the guys with a goblin avatar had a pretty neato sneaky rogue via a dip in shadowdancer (or the shadow bloodline via EH feats) and the hellcat stealth feat (HiPS in light and dark), with boots of soft step (tremorsense) and the dampen presence feat (blindsight/sense), along with oils of negate aroma (scent).
the shadowdancer route would help shore up your defenses via dodge/mobility, and combat reflexes helps reach builds--a HElf or human could snag the fauchard and critfish/AoO with it i suppose.
though getting SF: stealth is a prereq for dampen presence, EH (shadow), and hellcat stealth, so those with the shadowdancer feats would claim pretty much all of them for the life of the character.
i'm pretty sure i said this eariler though, sorry if this is a repeat.
It is not listed in the description. The section "New Racial Rules" (p.9 ARG) still says "cannot be taken by members of other races".
From SRD: "Although not an official category of feats, we found it easiest to break feats with a particular racial prerequisite into their own category. Most of these feats are specialized or intended to be used only with a particular race but can be taken by characters of other races with GM permission. Many will require some alteration to work with other races, however."
It seems highly suspect to suggest that, in a book with so many racial feats that have a race as prerequisite, they would simply miss putting Half-Orc or Orc into the prerequisites for Surprise Follow Through. Every other feat in the list has a race listed. Until otherwise stated, I have to assume this is intentional.
might be cool.
one of the guys with a goblin avatar had a pretty neato sneaky rogue via a dip in shadowdancer (or the shadow bloodline via EH feats) and the hellcat stealth feat (HiPS in light and dark), with boots of soft step (tremorsense) and the dampen presence feat (blindsight/sense), along with oils of negate aroma (scent).
the shadowdancer route would help shore up your defenses via dodge/mobility, and combat reflexes helps reach builds--a HElf or human could snag the fauchard and critfish/AoO with it i suppose.
though getting SF: stealth is a prereq for dampen presence, EH (shadow), and hellcat stealth, so those with the shadowdancer feats would claim pretty much all of them for the life of the character.
i'm pretty sure i said this eariler though, sorry if this is a repeat.
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
How so?
How so?
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
Not sure exactly, though BBT probably had a preference on why. I'm sure a Rogue could utilize it well enough. Basically the build is based on the caveat that movement allows for stealth and that usually stealth doesn't take an action at all. So the line of events happens as follows.
(In Stealth)
Attack, 5 ft step into stealth, Repeat.
I could post a stealth build rogue if you like. Probably might still have difficulty hitting things and only gets sneak attack on the first attack unless I employ Shatter Defences and flanking.
I'm not much of a rogue person but would a carnivalist rogue/ vivisectionist alchemist build be any good as it would through the tumor familiar discovery allow the familiar to continue growing in ability while increasing the sneak attack damage?
A Dex-based ranger can do stealth just as good as a Dex-based rogue, and they full BAB and more options for doing damage.How so?
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
Okayyy, how about some math to verify rangers being objectively better than rogues between these two? Rangers and Rogues both have stealth as a thing. Unless you can throw two builds up for a side by side comparison this is only an opinion.
Alignment DR screws everyone who doesn't straight
The only other thing that concerned me about your build (which again, I really do like) is that the sneak attack damage is only applied once after you've moved (I was reading the skirmisher class), so the damage that's getting done is actually really low at about 46 damage on a charge / movement + attack.
With the charge action the sneak attack would be applied to all her attacks at the end of the charge. Skirmisher only applies to the attack action. Granted that might require an FAQ to confirm.
Like I said it's something that could be improved. One level of monk and we're in dragon style territory meaning a strength based build might turn out much stronger.
Oh and one other thing. Feral Combat Training allows those things you mentioned to be applied to claws. :)
I'm a little confused. I was looking over your sheet and I'm not seeing how you get multiple attacks at the end of your charge, since you don't have pounce. I see that you could take Claw pounce at 14th level, but by that time it's exceedingly underwhelming. The best you're able to do if you go by Paizo's interpretation of speed weapons is 3 claw attacks or a little over 100 points of damage if all three claw attacks hit and you don't have to worry about DR.
That seems a little late to become viable. You also need to burn a feat for Shadow Strike or else your entire build is worthless against anything with a brain, because concealment effects prevent you from sneak attacking the foe, which means anything from 10 gp smokesticks and obscuring mist to cloud spells to blur and displacement and blink through invisibility / greater invisibility and so forth.
Your entire character can be invalidated by a 150 gp potion and only gets his/her first nice trick at a level when 150 gp is a drop in the ocean. That concerns me, and I'd like to see what your plans to meet this are before I show my tabletop players your build.
Meanwhile, I'm not sure what you mean about feral combat training. It only allows your natural weapons to be treated as unarmed strikes for the purposes of feats and buffs and such. I'm kind of failing to see how you plan to use that to pierce damage reductions unless you're going to take between 7-16 levels of monk along with your rogue levels. :\
Can you help me understand? :P
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might be cool.
one of the guys with a goblin avatar had a pretty neato sneaky rogue via a dip in shadowdancer (or the shadow bloodline via EH feats) and the hellcat stealth feat (HiPS in light and dark), with boots of soft step (tremorsense) and the dampen presence feat (blindsight/sense), along with oils of negate aroma (scent).
the shadowdancer route would help shore up your defenses via dodge/mobility, and combat reflexes helps reach builds--a HElf or human could snag the fauchard and critfish/AoO with it i suppose.
though getting SF: stealth is a prereq for dampen presence, EH (shadow), and hellcat stealth, so those with the shadowdancer feats would claim pretty much all of them for the life of the character.
i'm pretty sure i said this eariler though, sorry if this is a repeat.
wow i want to play this character, as a ninja...
my god that could be so nasty as an NPC...
So, this is a thing I guess, go ahead and work with it because I am tired and do not have enough gin
so basically this build just gets to you and then makes you go to sleep with grab, constricts, strangulation and raging punchisisations
or dies or whatever because rogues
I think I am going to go do some pushups
Seehem Puhnk
Male Human (Shoanti) Barbarian (Brutal Pugilist) 2/Rogue 8
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +3; Senses Perception +15
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Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 14, flat-footed 16 (+6 armor, +1 shield, +3 Dex, +1 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 107 (2d12+8d8+48)
Fort +11, Ref +11 (+2 bonus vs. traps), Will +9; +2 resistance bonus vs. poison
Defensive Abilities evasion, uncanny dodge, trap sense
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee bite +10 (1d4+3) and
. . unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d3+9)
Special Attacks constrict (1d6+7), constrict (1d4+7), rage, rage powers (animal fury), sneak attack +4d6
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 24, Dex 16, Con 18, Int 10, Wis 14, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +16 (+32 grapple); CMD 29 (31 vs. grapple)
Feats Dodge, Final Embrace, Greater Grapple, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, Snapping Turtle Clutch, Snapping Turtle Style, Strangler, Weapon Focus (grapple)
Traits bred for war (shoanti), indomitable faith
Skills Acrobatics +9 (+13 jump), Appraise +4, Bluff +11, Climb +11, Diplomacy +11, Disable Device +22, Disguise +4, Escape Artist +7 (+8 competence to break a grapple), Handle Animal +4, Intimidate +7, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (local) +4, Knowledge (nature) +4, Linguistics +4, Perception +15 (+19 to locate traps), Sense Motive +13, Sleight of Hand +7, Stealth +20, Survival +6 (+8 to avoid becoming lost), Swim +11, Use Magic Device +13
Languages Common, Elven, Shoanti
SQ brawling, fast movement, rogue talents (combat trick, offensive defense, unarmed combat training, weapon training), savage grapple, trapfinding +4
Combat Gear Anaconda's coils, Oil of bless weapon (2), Oil of daylight, Potion of Align Weapon, Potion of enlarge person, Potion of Feather Step (x2), Potion of fly (2), Potion of Touch of the Sea (x2), Potion of Versatile Weapon, Wand of cure light wounds, Smelling salts; Other Gear +2 Brawling Mithral Chain shirt, Armbands of the brawler, Cloak of resistance +2, Gauntlet of the skilled maneuver (grapple), Handy haversack (15 @ 2 lbs), Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ring of protection +1, Snakeskin tunic, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), Masterwork tool (Disable Device), Masterwork tool (Stealth), Shinobi shozoku, Smoked goggles, 65 GP
--------------------
TRACKED RESOURCES
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Oil of bless weapon - 0/2
Oil of daylight - 0/1
Potion of Align Weapon - 0/1
Potion of enlarge person - 0/1
Potion of Feather Step (x2) - 0/1
Potion of fly - 0/2
Potion of Touch of the Sea (x2) - 0/1
Potion of Versatile Weapon - 0/1
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) - 0/8
Wand of cure light wounds - 0/50
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Special Abilities
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Animal Fury (Ex) Gain a d4 bite attack while raging
Armbands of the brawler +1 to Escape Artist to break a grapple.
Brawling Unarmed strikes count as magic for bypassing DR.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement +10 (Ex) +10 feet to speed, unless heavily loaded.
Final Embrace (Bite [Animal Fury]) Gain constrict and grab special attacks
Grab (Medium) (Final Embrace (Bite [Animal Fury])) (Ex) You can start a grapple as a free action if you hit with the designated weapon.
Greater Grapple Maintaining a grapple is a move action, allowing you to make 2 checks a round.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=14) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 14+.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Offensive Defense (Ex) Sneak attack grants a +1 dodge bonus to AC for each die rolled vs. that foe.
Potion of Align Weapon Add this item to create a potion of a chosen spell.
Potion of Feather Step (x2) Add this item to create a potion of a chosen spell.
Potion of Touch of the Sea (x2) Add this item to create a potion of a chosen spell.
Potion of Versatile Weapon Add this item to create a potion of a chosen spell.
Rage (8 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Savage Grapple (Ex) Grapples always provoke AoO from you, halve grapple penalties.
Smoked goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Snakeskin tunic +2 save vs. poison
Snapping Turtle Clutch Your shield bonus applies to your CMD and touch AC
Snapping Turtle Style +1 Gain +1 shield bonus to AC when at least one hand is free
Sneak Attack +4d6 +4d6 damage if you flank your target or your target is flat-footed.
Strangler Deal sneak damage to grappled opponent
Trap Sense +2 (Ex) +2 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +4 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone. An ioun stone slotted in this manner grants you its normal benefits (as if it were orbiting your head), but frequently reveals entirely new powers due to the magic of the wayfinder itself (see Seeker of Secrets page 51).
Note: This item costs only 250gp for members of the Pathfinder Society
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, light; Cost 250 gp
Okayyy, how about some math to verify rangers being objectively better than rogues between these two? Rangers and Rogues both have stealth as a thing. Unless you can throw two builds up for a side by side comparison this is only an opinion.A Dex-based ranger can do stealth just as good as a Dex-based rogue, and they full BAB and more options for doing damage.How so?
The problem with the stealth beyond stealth build by BBT is that it was better suited to Rangers.
I think Bigdaddjug may be referring to the fact rangers get more love concerning things that help them Stealth. For example, rogues may pick a single terrain and hide in plain sight like a ranger. Meanwhile the ranger does it in every favored terrain. Rangers also have in-class access to things like hide from animals, negate aroma, pass without trace, risidual tracking, acute senses, chameleon stride, etc. Several of which can negate common foils vs Stealth (such as scent).
Likewise woodland stride makes using Stealth much easier since most natural locations of cover / concealment probably also count as difficult terrain (IE bushes, brambles, thickets, etc) or are in difficult terrain (trying to stealth through an overgrown marsh is a pain in the butt).
Compounded with the fact all rangers can take item creation feats and make their own elixirs of hiding, rangers are pretty amazing at stealth. Better than rogues IMHO. Rogues get...fast Stealth.
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I dont think anyone said the ranger is better at stealth(the skill). I think the argument is that the entire act of stealthing is better done as a ranger because if he is found he can more likely fight his way out of a bad situation. <---That is how I read it anyway.
edit:also because he has spells he may not even have to fight. Longstrider means he might be able to outrun any enemies.
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I dont think anyone said the ranger is better at stealth(the skill). I think the argument is that the entire act of stealthing is better done as a ranger because if he is found he can more likely fight his way out of a bad situation. <---That is how I read it anyway.
i would agree with this, UNLESS it was a rogue.
So, this is a thing I guess, go ahead and work with it because I am tired and do not have enough gin
so basically this build just gets to you and then makes you go to sleep with grab, constricts, strangulation and raging punchisisations
or dies or whatever because rogues
I think I am going to go do some pushups** spoiler omitted **...
Could you elaborate on some stuff for me?
- How do you have final embrace? You're not a naga, serpentfolk, nor do you have the constrict ability,
- Why is your AC so low? Most level-appropriate enemies will hit you on a 2, and can still-full attack while being grappled.
- Why do you have a potion of align weapon but no weapons?
- Same as above except bless weapon.
- Same as above except versatile weapon.
- What do you do against creatures that are one or more size categories larger than yourself?
- What is your strategy against freedom of movement or creatures larger than yourself?
i feel like you have answers to your own questions but hey at least you did not use an emote
In any case
AC, it is what it is. Offensive Defense will help, as will the extra HP from raging, but yes, it is low
against larger creatures, I will enlarge my person
Constrict comes from the Anaconda's Coils
Bless Weapon and Versatile Weapon can be cast on Unarmed Strikes
Align weapon my bad, I thought I had added a a dagger but must have taken it off in a previous iteration
also, I accidentally left dodge in there from a previous build that was toying with mobility, feel free to add power attack, chokehold, sleeper hold, snapping turtle shell, final embrace horror, or whatever else suits your fancy
i feel like you have answers to your own questions but hey at least you did not use an emote
I'm not sure how to respond to this. There is a lot of material for Pathfinder and I don't claim to be an infallible resource when it comes to every minute detail. I'm legitimately curious as to how you qualified for Final Embrace. I'm also legitimately curious as to why you have those oils with no weapons to use them on (non of them AFAIK work with unarmed strikes / natural weapons). Is the AC intentional? Is it a byproduct of the build's goals?
I wouldn't have asked if I didn't want your answer.
EDIT: Ninja'd by an edit. :P
Hmmm, the belt thing is kind of odd. Probably legal given the precedent for ability score enhancing items to qualify for feats (though I'm not sure that the constrict ability gained from the item counts as a bonus), though I was under the impression that a druid can't take things like Multi-attack since they don't actually have natural attacks, merely can get them through temporary effects.
Interesting.
Regarding the AC, between the grapple feats and the grab ability I would like to be on my target and punching/squeezing them to death before they can really get too many hits in
but yeah, staying within WBL for this build it would probably better to add some miss-chance or a more reliable source of invisibility
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Buy Oils of Negate Armor. This build mainly shoots for 1 sneak attack a round, but if you can get the flanks go for it. Get that Wand of Elemental touch asap. That is pretty cool. The cool part of this build is I actually have a solid ac when I land my Sneak Attack for an AC of 34. Abuse abuse abuse Hellcat Stealth and Shadow well.
Level 11 Goblin Rogue (Scout) (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored (For abuse with a Luckstone and Jingasa later), Armor Expert
Favored Class Bonuses are damage dealt during a Surprise round or before an opponent has acted.
Str:10
Dex:22(26)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:11(15)
Feats/Talents:
1: Skill Focus (Stealth)
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
4: Fast Stealth
5: Dampen Presence
6: Slow Reactions
7: Hellcat Stealth
8: Offensive Defense
9: Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
10: Skill Mastery (Stealth, Acrobatics, UMD)
11: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadowwell)
Gear:
+1 Agile Shortsword
Boots of the Soft Step
Belt of Dexterity +4
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
+1 Shadow Mithril chainshirt
+2 Masterwork Buckler
Cloak of Resistance +2
Ring of Prot +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
Skills:
Acrobatics +22
Disable Device +22 (27 vs, Traps)
Escape Artist +22
Perception +14
Stealth +35 (11 Ranks, Class Skill +3, Competence Bonus from Shadow +5, Racial Bonus and Small +8, +8 Dex
UMD +14
Kn.Local +14
Kn.Dungeoneering +14
DEFENSES
HP: 75
AC: 28
Fort:+7 Ref:+17 Will:+5
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +18/13
Damage: 1d4+8+6d6(+11 if the opponent hasn't acted yet or in the surprise round)
Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.
The rogue is fine and a great class for the lower levels. After level 12 a couple things happen.
1) The rogue to hit suffers. In PF the AC of higher CR encounter is anywhere from 0-5 AC greater depending on the encounter. So the AC went up but the rogue has no way to increase their to hit bonus and other ways to reduce it like TWF which makes this problem even worse.
2) Skills is the next thing. By level 12 the rest of the party can cover skills with their own skills, class feature and spells. The skill monkey class in no longer needed. All that is left for the rogue is traps and I find by high level traps tend to be become trivial and therefore are not used.
5) It's around level 12 that you max out you AC for the most part. No shield and light armor only. That only gets you so far. So in combat you are once maybe twice with sneak attack but you are taking hits when the enemy misses only a 1. Having less hit points you take beating. The fix for this is to get a cloak of displacement, minor then major when you can afford it. So steal lots to get that ASAP.
4) Saves start to really hurt at the high level. The main reason for this is the feats on give you +2. You don't have cloak of resistance because you got the cloak of displacement. You can compensate for this with UMD which should be high enough to make use of scrolls and wands. The downside is gp to pull this off. If you can steal a lot of scrolls go for it, it should impact WBL as they are consumables you will be consuming a lot of.
Now you aren't useless as rogue but it get a lot tougher where other classes are not struggling as much. If you multiclass from 12+ you do a lot better. I find taking 9 levels of fighter is quite effective. The base fighter give you 5 feats, Armor training 2 which is great for the high dex build, Weapon training 2 and access to 8th level fighter only feats. Your BAB will also be 2 higher.
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Yes, sneak attack is the rogue's main source of damage. However, the damage being predicated on flanking and flat-footedness is what balances out the damage. Because it's a LOT of damage. If a rogue got that all the time, every time, it would be insane. It requires him to strategize, optimize feats, think, and work with his teammates. The rogue in Pathfinder is far & above what it was in previous editions of the game. Any problems stem from player-imposed roles or conceptions/misconceptions. The game isn't the rules. The game is a player-driven story, the rules are just a facilitator. I love rogues. They are great. Don't need "fixing". They already were fixed when they carried over from 3.5 to now.The rogue is fine and a great class for the lower levels. After level 12 a couple things happen.
1) The rogue to hit suffers. In PF the AC of higher CR encounter is anywhere from 0-5 AC greater depending on the encounter. So the AC went up but the rogue has no way to increase their to hit bonus and other ways to reduce it like TWF which makes this problem even worse.
2) Skills is the next thing. By level 12 the rest of the party can cover skills with their own skills, class feature and spells. The skill monkey class in no longer needed. All that is left for the rogue is traps and I find by high level traps tend to be become trivial and therefore are not used.
5) It's around level 12 that you max out you AC for the most part. No shield and light armor only. That only gets you so far. So in combat you are once maybe twice with sneak attack but you are taking hits when the enemy misses only a 1. Having less hit points you take beating. The fix for this is to get a cloak of displacement, minor then major when you can afford it. So steal lots to get that ASAP.
4) Saves start to really hurt at the high level. The main reason for this is the feats on give you +2. You don't have cloak of resistance because you got the cloak of displacement. You can compensate...
You could also have your Cloak of displacement enchanted with Resistance. It just increases the cost a bit.
After level 12 the whole game starts falling apart really so fixing one class will lead to "now lets fix the fighter....next up monk....after that bard....then we can look at...". IMO if the rogue is fine until 12th then he is fine. I don't blame the classes when the game is the fault.| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
After level 12 the whole game starts falling apart really so fixing one class will lead to "now lets fix the fighter....next up monk....after that bard....then we can look at...". IMO if the rogue is fine until 12th then he is fine. I don't blame the classes when the game is the fault.
Why would you need to fix the bard? Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Paladin, Ranger, Sorcerer, and Wizard all work well right through high levels.
Fighter, Monk, Rogue are almost universally considered the underdogs. Most people agree that monk and rogue are broken through all levels of play.
I actually did fix the monk because I want my players to have a good time throughout all the levels. Because I've actually ran games that went into the 20s. The game isn't bad at those levels. If anything it's a ton of fun and challenging, exciting, and full of action as long as you learned all you should have through the low levels.
Creatures with a Perception of +20 fail on a 20 against my Goblin build by the way, since I can take 10s for a 45.
Hmmm, the belt thing is kind of odd. Probably legal given the precedent for ability score enhancing items to qualify for feats (though I'm not sure that the constrict ability gained from the item counts as a bonus), though I was under the impression that a druid can't take things like Multi-attack since they don't actually have natural attacks, merely can get them through temporary effects.
Interesting.
Well, here's the the thing:
So, the belt gives me the Constrict 'special ability'.
Now, Constrict is a 'special attack,', an (Ex) to be specific.
According to the Special Abilities section of the PRD, "Special Abilities" include all Ex, Sp and Su abilities.
Now, on to AC...Also, on the previous build, I had rage up, so it's really an AC of 22 until you have a hold of your target.
So...what about switching up the stats to favor Dex over Str, and substituting Agile Maneuvers for Dodge? Keep the Str at 13 for a future Power Attack feat? Then, you could fight defensively or use total defense to get up in the AC 26 to 30 range, utilizing Snapping Turtle Clutch to initiate your attack.
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Honestly what I think this thread proves is that the rogue doesnt need fixing. He is good at what he wants to be..if you focus on it. Hes not so much a jack of all trades master of none. Thats the inquisitor or the bard. Rather the rogue is a lump of putty. Mold it into whatever sculpture you desire, be it touch attacks, natural, traps, stealth, damage , non lethal, skill monkey. The rogue can make the rest suffer to be amazing at 1, however he can still do them all. This makes hm a jack of some trades, master of one.
Well, here's the the thing:
So, the belt gives me the Constrict 'special ability'.
Now, Constrict is a 'special attack,', an (Ex) to be specific.
According to the Special Abilities section of the PRD, "Special Abilities" include all Ex, Sp and Su abilities.
Now, on to AC...Also, on the previous build, I had rage up, so it's really an AC of 22 until you have a hold of your target.
So...what about switching up the stats to favor Dex over Str, and substituting Agile Maneuvers for Dodge? Keep the Str at 13 for a future Power Attack feat? Then, you could fight defensively or use total defense to get up in the AC 26 to 30 range, utilizing Snapping Turtle Clutch to initiate your attack.
I think the biggest issue I see with the constrict thing is that, to my knowledge you cannot qualify for feats with things that are considered temporary. Ergo, to my knowledge a druid cannot take Multiattack unless the druid has the 3+ natural attacks, even if the druid could wild shape into a bear for 3+ natural attacks. Nor could the druid take Improved Natural Attack (Claw) unless the druid actually has a claw attack.
I don't see this being legal RAW unless it's also legal for druids to take those feats because they can gain those attacks during their wild shape. Though if it's legal for druids too then no complaints here.
As to the AC thing, swapping Dex for Agile maneuvers and Weapon Finesse (so you can actually land a hit with your style counters) would definitely help out in the AC department, though the penalty for fighting defensively hurts and you can't fight defensively while maintaining a grapple. Now using a total defense up until you reach your foe could be useful, though you can't make AoOs when you're taking a total defense so that could be problematic unless your opponent walks into your trap and you can successfully grapple them.
Though grappling's actually pretty difficult. Aside from the fact freedom of movement came on scene 3+ levels ago, most of the brutish sorts that are going to be meleeing with you are going to have really high CMDs. For example, let's look at a few monsters.
Clay Golems have a pretty decent chance of just ignoring the grapple and pounding face (or pounding face while you're grappling it, probably after hasting itself).
Bebiliths are another example of a creature that might want to engage you in melee. It's CMD is likewise quite high, and its full attack routine is pretty terrible to behold.
If instead we assume something like a CR 8 gnoll warrior, we're looking at about 25 base CMD plus Strength plus Dexterity plus any feats, which could easily land it in the 30s.
That being said, I'm actually really impressed that you got a grapple modifier that high as a rogue, though I'm left wanting as it seems like a one trick pony that is easily swept aside. Though you might have been better off going full barbarian. You'd have more rounds of rage and your grapple checks would be much stronger (since you can get your full BAB + Str + class level to your CMB), and you could have a lot more survivability and more options when your entire build falls down around you (such as when freedom of movement happens).
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I will fix him get me a paperclip,chocolate bar and gum
stuffstuff
I do not want to turn this into a 'is grappling good' thread. I'd like to stay on topic with the OP's requests but would be happy to talk grappling in another thread, it's definitely one of my favorite build types.
To keep it on topic, take a look at a level 10 Tetori, Brutal Pugilist, etc. While they will be undoubtedly better grapplers with more tricks, their skill selection and out-of-combat versatility goes down. The grappler I built above can disable traps well, has good UMD, a good score in pretty much all the social skills, can stealth well, etc.
But, I will bite on one item, Freedom of Movement. It's a 4th level spell. It has a verbal requirement. Odds are, most things casting it aren't going to have the most awesome CMDs. Now, a level 9 tetori monk can essentially negate that spell. Or...so can any other grappler who takes Chokehold. You can't cast if you can't breathe or speak.
Regardless, if I've made an enemy who has already taken a constrict grapple burn a standard action cast simply to run away from me, then I've already kinda won at that level of play. That enemy now spent their entire turn getting away from me. In any case, their action economy at what are now nearing rocket-tag levels has been irritatingly impacted.
Does the enemy get away from the rest of my party that turn? Did I surprise-round them and get near them to begin the combat with my 40 ft move, stealth, invisibilty, etc? If so, did they even get the freedom of movement off?
Specific examples are specific, but the bottom line is that I built a pretty good grappler who is also pretty darn good at a number of other things. I'd be more than happy to look at another level 10 grapple build that is more well-rounded if you want to build one, or also I'd be more than happy to hyper-focus my own build on pure offense with some swashbuckler/scout shennanigans.
I can build a better grappler, no doubt. Possibly, by dipping inquisitor I might be able to get something similar in terms of well-roundedness without going rogue. At this point, I'm so far down the rabbit hole, however, that I think my little deathcuddling rogue has held his own in anything but the most specific or hyper-min-maxed scenarios.
But hey, I sincerely appreciate the feedback and discussion, Ashiel.
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I've always gone under an extension of the rule that dictates when you can take ranks in the Fly skill:
I think the biggest issue I see with the constrict thing is that, to my knowledge you cannot qualify for feats with things that are considered temporary. Ergo, to my knowledge a druid cannot take Multiattack unless the druid has the 3+ natural attacks, even if the druid could wild shape into a bear for 3+ natural attacks. Nor could the druid take Improved Natural Attack (Claw) unless the druid actually has a claw attack.I don't see this being legal RAW unless it's also legal for druids to take those feats because they can gain those attacks during their wild shape. Though if it's legal for druids too then no complaints here.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
This would mean that you can only take weapon focus (ray) if you can cast ray spell, you can only take weapon focus (katana) if you have access to a katana, etc. Again... it's not RAW for feats as far as I can find, but I'm fairly sure it's RAI.
I've always gone under an extension of the rule that dictates when you can take ranks in the Fly skill:
I think the biggest issue I see with the constrict thing is that, to my knowledge you cannot qualify for feats with things that are considered temporary. Ergo, to my knowledge a druid cannot take Multiattack unless the druid has the 3+ natural attacks, even if the druid could wild shape into a bear for 3+ natural attacks. Nor could the druid take Improved Natural Attack (Claw) unless the druid actually has a claw attack.I don't see this being legal RAW unless it's also legal for druids to take those feats because they can gain those attacks during their wild shape. Though if it's legal for druids too then no complaints here.
You cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).This would mean that you can only take weapon focus (ray) if you can cast ray spell, you can only take weapon focus (katana) if you have access to a katana, etc. Again... it's not RAW for feats as far as I can find, but I'm fairly sure it's RAI.
Items that grant you an enhancement bonus can become a permanent bonus to your character and thus qualify you for feats.
We have a precedent for the belt allowing you to qualify for the feat.
On Topic, I would love some criticism for my Stealth beyond Stealth build. I probably nowhere near optimized it, so suggestions would be great.
CR 11 creatures generally have a +20 perception. I take 10s because leave nothing to chance. Plus Hellcat Stealth gives me a -10 if I want to hide in bright light.
My only methods of raising my HP or saves requires money which I only spent 3,750 on stealth.
I woudl say taht is not a good build in my opinion. I mean, is terrific at stealth, but it have low defense and offense, it is too umbalanced for my taste.
How does it have low defense? I maintain an AC of 28 which spikes to 34 when I land a sneak attack, which is almost a given considering I can restealth with a 5 foot step. When I restealth, I have total concealment for a 50% miss chance and can't be the target of targeted spells. A Stone Golem (CR 11) has a +22 to hit me. It misses on a 11 or lower.
Yeah I don't do a whole lot of damage, but I can put it out at the start of combat with that +11 tossed in. The build definitely benefits from more gold. A bane baldric and a Headband of Ninjitsu would be my next investments for upping my attack.
On Topic, I would love some criticism for my Stealth beyond Stealth build. I probably nowhere near optimized it, so suggestions would be great.
Why the Headband of alluring charisma +4? That's 16,000gp that could probably be better spent shoring up your saves.
On Topic, I would love some criticism for my Stealth beyond Stealth build. I probably nowhere near optimized it, so suggestions would be great.Why the Headband of alluring charisma +4? That's 16,000gp that could probably be better spent shoring up your saves.
So I can qualify for Improved Eldritch Heritage and get Shadow Well.
Is there something specific about Goblin that is essential to your build? It just seems a bit counter-productive to take a -CHA race when you then have to buy your way back out of the deficit...
I woudl say taht is not a good build in my opinion. I mean, is terrific at stealth, but it have low defense and offense, it is too umbalanced for my taste.How does it have low defense? I maintain an AC of 28 which spikes to 34 when I land a sneak attack, which is almost a given considering I can restealth with a 5 foot step. When I restealth, I have total concealment for a 50% miss chance and can't be the target of targeted spells. A Stone Golem (CR 11) has a +22 to hit me. It misses on a 11 or lower.
first and foremost you have really bad saves. Second, your buid trades uncanny dodge so your Ac can fall pretty low against simple tactics.
But yeah, saves are too low.
Yeah I feel like dropping Scout since I honestly don't need it. It was mostly to get that early game 4th level charge sneak attacks but early game you can get flanks alot more frequently.
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Made room for the Luckstone, took a hit to my AC. Forgot to add size modifiers. Saves are 2 higher along with all ability and skill checks.
Level 11 Goblin Rogue (20 Point buy)
Traits: Fate's Favored (For abuse with a Luckstone and Jingasa later), Armor Expert
Favored Class Bonuses are damage dealt during a Surprise round or before an opponent has acted.
Str:10
Dex:22(24)
Con:14
Int:10
Wis:10
Cha:11(15)
Feats/Talents:
1: Skill Focus (Stealth)
2: Finesse Rogue
3: Eldritch Heritage (Shadow)
4: Fast Stealth
5: Dampen Presence
6: Slow Reactions
7: Hellcat Stealth
8: Offensive Defense
9: Weapon Focus (Shortsword)
10: Skill Mastery (Stealth, Acrobatics, UMD)
11: Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shadowwell)
Gear:
+1 Agile Shortsword
Boots of the Soft Step
Belt of Dexterity +2
Headband of Alluring Charisma +4
+1 Shadow Mithril chainshirt
Masterwork Buckler
Cloak of Resistance +3
Ring of Prot +1
Amulet of Natural Armor +1
Stone of Good Luck
Skills:
Acrobatics +23
Disable Device +23 (28 vs, Traps)
Escape Artist +23
Perception +16
Stealth +39 (11 Ranks, Class Skill +3, Competence Bonus from Shadow +5, Racial Bonus and Small +8, +7 Dex, +2 Luck Bonus, Skill Focus +3
UMD +16
Kn.Local +16
Kn.Dungeoneering +16
DEFENSES
HP: 75
AC: 25
Fort:+9 Ref:+18 Will:+7
OFFENSES:
Attack Bonus: +18/13
Damage: 1d4+7+6d6(+11 if the opponent hasn't acted yet or in the surprise round)
I do not want to turn this into a 'is grappling good' thread. I'd like to stay on topic with the OP's requests but would be happy to talk grappling in another thread, it's definitely one of my favorite build types.stuffstuff
I'm just not really into one-trick ponies in general. And when that one trick isn't really very good and it leaves them ailing in lots of other areas it concerns me.
To keep it on topic, take a look at a level 10 Tetori, Brutal Pugilist, etc. While they will be undoubtedly better grapplers with more tricks, their skill selection and out-of-combat versatility goes down. The grappler I built above can disable traps well, has good UMD, a good score in pretty much all the social skills, can stealth well, etc.
I'm confused as to how it goes down exactly. The only thing that the rogue levels are bringing is trapfinding which is okay at best. Nothing else that it has actually does much for out of combat utility. Could you elaborate?
But, I will bite on one item, Freedom of Movement. It's a 4th level spell. It has a verbal requirement. Odds are, most things casting it aren't going to have the most awesome CMDs. Now, a level 9 tetori monk can essentially negate that spell. Or...so can any other grappler who takes Chokehold. You can't cast if you can't breathe or speak.
Freedom of movement lasts longer than an hour at the earliest point it becomes available and has a range of touch. Freedom of movement is like heroism. You usually cast it prior to needing it, and it's got a very high priority in combat because of how integral it is to high level combat.
My PCs and my NPCs want to cast freedom of movement on everybody. Everyone wants this buff because being CC'd sucks. Being handled with an errant black tentacles or hold monster sucks eggs. Likewise, getting wrapped up in tentacles, suplexed by Zangieff, trapped in a rolling ball of water, or anchored to the ground or stuck to the walls.
I find the "you can't cast if you can't speak" thing pretty questionable since it basically assumes that this long-duration buff is going to be something that is A) only going to be used on people weak vs grappling, and B) won't be cast ahead of time or activated through a magic item effect.
Regardless, if I've made an enemy who has already taken a constrict grapple burn a standard action cast simply to run away from me, then I've already kinda won at that level of play. That enemy now spent their entire turn getting away from me. In any case, their action economy at what are now nearing rocket-tag levels has been irritatingly impacted.
Why is high level play rocket tag? If anything it's anti-rocket tag. You have the resources and the capabilities to shrug huge amounts of punishment. The martial sorts could survive dropping a volcano on them, and the squishies can literally die multiple times during the same encounter before they stop fighting.
PCs have layers and layers of defenses (unless they're just dirt-stupid and have focused entirely on offense). PCs are going to be sporting AC and Saves in the stratosphere, with concealment effects, immunities, resistances, and likely have a fair chance to simply ignore critical hits and sneak attacks.
Killing a PC with stuff at high levels is something that is not done lightly. Meanwhile while NPCs are usually much weaker than the PCs (and have less wealth) they often outnumber the PCs in big ways and can have plenty of backup and tactical opportunities.
Does the enemy get away from the rest of my party that turn? Did I surprise-round them and get near them to begin the combat with my 40 ft move, stealth, invisibilty, etc? If so, did they even get the freedom of movement off?
Not really. In one of my games you'd have likely ran up and tried to grapple, only to discover that the creature wasn't even able to be grappled to begin with and then proceeded to nom on your face. At which point you either need your mage friend to waste his actions trying to dispel the incredibly common and long duration buff or try to get you out of there so you don't die due to low AC and poor combat ability outside of your one-trick-pony's realm of moderate expertise.
Specific examples are specific, but the bottom line is that I built a pretty good grappler who is also pretty darn good at a number of other things. I'd be more than happy to look at another level 10 grapple build that is more well-rounded if you want to build one, or also I'd be more than happy to hyper-focus my own build on pure offense with some swashbuckler/scout shennanigans.
Which is why I don't consider specific examples to counter stuff, I think about builds in terms of how well they would do in my own games. The NPCs and encounters in my games follow the XP budgets set out in the core rules, and they are pretty varied. I'm used to dealing with high level play and the like. Singular tricks don't impress me because it takes more than "I can do this one thing really well" to be successful in a game where it's mundane for you to be surrounded 3 to one by high level fiends teleporting around and dropping doomsday spells and full-attacking you with their 6 arms + tail or throwing you around like a rag-doll with telekinesis.
I think about the adventure path I'm playing in on Fridays, where our party recently encountered a young (medium sized) white dragon with a few class levels who literally shredded one of our 6th level d8 HD PCs into tiny bits in one round. In one full attack the PC went from A-OK to "omg, I've taken 80 damage with 40-ish max HP".
It was just a little dragon. >.>
But hey, I sincerely appreciate the feedback and discussion, Ashiel.
That makes two of us. I'm really interested in understanding the tactical considerations of this build. I'm not seeing in my head why it would work or how it toots the horn of the rogue at all (rather than merely showing again how everything else does what the rogue tries to do except better), hence why I was asking.
Is there something specific about Goblin that is essential to your build? It just seems a bit counter-productive to take a -CHA race when you then have to buy your way back out of the deficit...
My apologies Lamontius, I missed this post.
Goblins are effectively a +10 to my Stealth check alone. That buys my Hellcat Stealth penalty immediately.
If you know a better method, by all means let me know oh my god I forgot Skill Focus (Stealth).
I debated long and hard whether I wanted him to be a halfling. I really like Goblins heh.
Made room for the Luckstone, took a hit to my AC. Forgot to add size modifiers. Saves are 2 higher along with all ability and skill checks.
** spoiler omitted **
I have to admit these stealth-centric builds are really terrible to behold. It's really, really hard to stop them when they aren't relying on tricks like invisibility. Give 'em cover or concealment and watch them murder stuff like the predator.
Hellcat Stealth is just gross, and goblin is essentially the perfect race for this on top of it all (+4 size, +4 racial, +2 dex modifier; though much respect for the fact you don't have to be a goblin to make it work).
Adding an elixir of hiding against particularly difficult foes is probably a great idea.
The biggest pain about this build is how difficult it is to stop. Given the ability to remain very mobile you basically need glitterdust or faerie fire specifically, readied to shoot, when the stealth-guy makes an appearance for offense (assuming the stealth-guy doesn't snipe you and milk range incremental bonuses on top of it).
While I think the Stealthing thing could be done better by a Bard or perhaps even a Ranger, the sneak attack helps to take fairly solid pot-shots at enemies with relative impunity. It would be pretty solid for pestering spellcasters with as well.
My only concern is what happens when the trick is foiled (and it can be foiled, it's just really difficult to do since things like see invisibility, true seeing, and so forth do bubkis to stop it).
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Is there something specific about Goblin that is essential to your build? It just seems a bit counter-productive to take a -CHA race when you then have to buy your way back out of the deficit...
My apologies Lamontius, I missed this post.
Goblins are effectively a +10 to my Stealth check alone. That buys my Hellcat Stealth penalty immediately.
If you know a better method, by all means let me know oh my god I forgot Skill Focus (Stealth).
I debated long and hard whether I wanted him to be a halfling. I really like Goblins heh.
This is one of the reasons goblins scare the pants off of me at low levels. The generic goblin warriors with no ranks in Stealth at all have +10 to Stealth and shortbows. Taking 10 on their Stealth checks means they can pepper you from 60 ft (+1 / 10 ft.) means you'd need to hit a DC 26-27 Perception DC to notice them ambushing you before you're ready to get shot at without penalties. And if they all focus fire on you, those little 1d4 shortbows actually hurt at low.